Scott Roeder says he knows there are similar events planned around the country

[Straw Man]

hahah i cant say as i dont know the extent to his mental anguish...i can tell you if i was in isolation for 23 hours a day for 7 days that i would feel like id been tortured.

reading the definition of torture from either the geneva convention which again is a tad more broad then the one holmes posted or even holmes definition itself is problematic b/c those definition are open to interpretation.

so we might have tortured this guy but perhaps not intentionally?

but then again we might conclude at some point that we have to torture him

let's keep in mind he claims to have knowledge of imminent attacks on our country

[MB_722]

http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/431332.html

[tonymctones]

so we might have tortured this guy but perhaps not intentionally?

but then again we might conclude at some point that we have to torture him

let's keep in mind he claims to have knowledge of imminent attacks on our country

Sounds about right, you seem to think that there is some illogical thought process to that conclusion?

define extreme physical or mental anguish

how can you apply that to different ppl wouldnt the limits differ from person to person?

[Straw Man]

http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/431332.html

ct's abound

[Straw Man]

Sounds about right, you seem to think that there is some illogical thought process to that conclusion?

define extreme physical or mental anguish

how can you apply that to different ppl wouldnt the limits differ from person to person?

let me be clear

I don't think we've yet tortured Roeder

I don't think we will torture Roeder

I donn't think we should torture Roeder

I do think he is a terrorist and more than likely did not act alone and also may have info on future attacks

[MB_722]

ct's abound

have to love how quickly they've gotten all this information

[Straw Man]

have to love how quickly they've gotten all this information

true but I'm sure that alot of info already exists and maybe there is just a lot more people looking at it

I do thing there might be some coordinated effort of terror going on here

[24KT]

true but I'm sure that alot of info already exists and maybe there is just a lot more people looking at it

I do thing there might be some coordinated effort of terror going on here

Supposedly there exists a 2004 Rolling Stone article wherein the head of Operation Rescue stated he had moles that had infiltrated Dr. Tiller's church, and were keeping tabs on his movements.

[Alex23]

He should've been aborted.

[24KT]

If no one talks, the best we can hope for is an accident similar to the one that happened to Ayres girlfriend where a makeshift device goes off while they're building it, ...and the only casualties are the terrorists themselves.
Now THAT would be ironic justice. 

[MCWAY]

well  Roeder is a current story and the only mention of christians was the fact that some on the board are pro-water boarding for terrorist

Seems like a timely and fair question to me.

This man claims he knows of future acts of terror

Should he be water-boarded

christians and non-christians are free to share their views

If you can't get him to talk any other way, I say go for it.

My question is whether those who were blubbering about "torture" have had a change of heart, now that the lives of their "heroes" (and I say that, only because some have referred to Tiller as such) are at stake.

[Straw Man]

If you can't get him to talk any other way, I say go for it.

My question is whether those who were blubbering about "torture" have had a change of heart, now that the lives of their "heroes" (and I say that, only because some have referred to Tiller as such) are at stake.

so we can see from this short thread that most of the christians are OK with torturing this guy.

personally, I think (as always) that it won't produce any good info. 

[tonymctones]

so we can see from this short thread that most of the christians are OK with torturing this guy.

personally, I think (as always) that it won't produce any good info. 

once again what does chrisitanity have to do with the issue at hand?

[Straw Man]

once again what does chrisitanity have to do with the issue at hand?

I thought we already covered this. 

[BM OUT]

If torturing him is the option,then thats fine.It wont stop the anti-abortionists.Just as the islamic terrorists believe they are fighting for Allah,so to do the anti-abortion people think they are fighting for God.

However,again,at least that scum bag Tiller is gone.

[tonymctones]

I thought we already covered this. 

we did and i showed you the fallacy of your statement did i not?

[Straw Man]

we did and i showed you the fallacy of your statement did i not?

really?

I thought you pointed out that Evangelicals tend to be conservative and conservatives support torture to which I asked why you objected in the first place since you're basically saying christians = conservative = support torture which was exactly my point to begin with.

anyway, I'm pretty sure that Roeder won't be tortured anywhere except inside his skull where he's been tortured daily by reality for a very long time

[tonymctones]

really?

I thought you pointed out that Evangelicals tend to be conservative and conservatives support torture to which I asked why you objected in the first place since you're basically saying christians = conservative = support torture which was exactly my point to begin with.

anyway, I'm pretty sure that Roeder won't be tortured anywhere except inside his skull where he's been tortured daily by reality for a very long time

really?

I thought you pointed out that Evangelicals tend to be conservative and conservatives support torture to which I asked why you objected in the first place since you're basically saying christians = conservative = support torture which was exactly my point to begin with.

anyway, I'm pretty sure that Roeder won't be tortured anywhere except inside his skull where he's been tortured daily by reality for a very long time

LOL well you seem to want to make the illogical jump that because a person is an Evangelical christians means that person is pro "torture" which is false again simple correlation which is what you have in you study does not imply causation...you understand that correct?

this topic as you addressed it in the question has NOTHING to do with christians it has to do with ppl who are for in favor of enhanced interrogation techniques which is far more ppl then simply evangelical christians...

again get over whatever it is that you have against christianity it makes you look like a jack ass the majority of the timeespecially when your bring it up when it has nothing to do with the issue at hand...

[Straw Man]

LOL well you seem to want to make the illogical jump that because a person is an Evangelical christians means that person is pro "torture" which is false again simple correlation which is what you have in you study does not imply causation...you understand that correct?

this topic as you addressed it in the question has NOTHING to do with christians it has to do with ppl who are for in favor of enhanced interrogation techniques which is far more ppl then simply evangelical christians...

again get over whatever it is that you have against christianity it makes you look like a jack ass the majority of the timeespecially when your bring it up when it has nothing to do with the issue at hand...

Tony - you're entitled to your opinion

I have to say I do find it fascinating that christians (or even just religious folks) often suggest that without religion we would have no moral compass yet it seems that the more religious one is the more they tend to support things like torture (even when there is an abudance of evidence that its not even effective) and when you start getting to the really crazy end of the religious spectrum you've got guys like Roeder who's extreme relgious beliefs tell him it's ok, and even required to commit murder.   I also can't get over the irony that from the Christian point of view that their saviour Jesus was tortured to death for their sins yet they still don't see the irony.   That always gives me a chuckle.

Your point seems be (correct me if I'm wrong) that it's got nothing to do with religion and only has to do with their political views.   Do I understand you correctly?

[tu_holmes]

Thats exactly right, but as the defintion states extreme anguish of body or MIND...isolation can be extremely harsh on the mental component of a person and that premise could be used on just about everything...

also we never established what definition of torture we were going by the geneva conventions definition is slightly broader then that one.

I meant "Mind" in my previous posting.

[tonymctones]

Tony - you're entitled to your opinion

I have to say I do find it fascinating the christians (or even just religious folks) often suggest that without religion we would have no moral compass yet it seems that the more religious one is the more they tend to support things like torture (even when their is an abudance of evidence that its not even effective) and when you start getting to the really crazy end of the religious spectrum you've got guys like Roeder who's extreme relgious beliefs tell him it's ok, and even required to commit murder.   I also can't get over the irony that from the Christian point of view that their saviour Jesus was tortured to death for their sins yet they still don't see the irony.   That always gives me a chuckle.

Your point seems be (correct me if I'm wrong) that it's got nothing to do with religion and only has to do with their political views.   Do I understand you correctly?

LOL well as atheists morals are fairly arbitrary this you cannot deny, so for you to say as an atheist that someones morals are not moral is pretty stupid they are simply different from yours.

there is conflicting evidence to whether torture works or not straw dont be ignorant and repeat liberal talking points.

you see you did it again "when you start getting to the really crazy end of the religious spectrum you've got guys like Roeder who's extreme relgious beliefs tell him it's ok, and even required to commit murder." those are not religious beliefs those are HIS beliefs...please show me where the christian religion says that this is ok...if you cant then its not a religious belief its HIS BELIEF...

Jesus was not tortured to get information he was tortured in the process of them killing him...totally different we didnt run around and torture ppl for shits and giggles or as a way of making death more displeasurable. Apples and oranges it seems you displeasure for religion specifically christianity causes you to lose your head straw and again make a jack ass out of yourself.

my point is that religion has nothing to do with being pro "torture" or not and neither does being conservative yes you can make a correlation between the 2 or 3 but again CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION...you can be pro enhanced interrogation techniques and be atheist or liberal...i honestly dont understand why atheist object to it at all as again morals from atheist are for the most part arbitrary and a logical stance can be made for "torture" by atheist.

[Straw Man]

LOL well as atheists morals are fairly arbitrary this you cannot deny, so for you to say as an atheist that someones morals are not moral is pretty stupid they are simply different from yours.

there is conflicting evidence to whether torture works or not straw dont be ignorant and repeat liberal talking points.

you see you did it again "when you start getting to the really crazy end of the religious spectrum you've got guys like Roeder who's extreme relgious beliefs tell him it's ok, and even required to commit murder." those are not religious beliefs those are HIS beliefs...please show me where the christian religion says that this is ok...if you cant then its not a religious belief its HIS BELIEF...

Jesus was not tortured to get information he was tortured in the process of them killing him...totally different we didnt run around and torture ppl for shits and giggles or as a way of making death more displeasurable. Apples and oranges it seems you displeasure for religion specifically christianity causes you to lose your head straw and again make a jack ass out of yourself.

my point is that religion has nothing to do with being pro "torture" or not and neither does being conservative yes you can make a correlation between the 2 or 3 but again CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION...you can be pro enhanced interrogation techniques and be atheist or liberal...i honestly dont understand why atheist object to it at all as again morals from atheist are for the most part arbitrary and a logical stance can be made for "torture" by atheist.

tony  - can't you make your responses a bit shorter.  I'd like to respond but I'm trying to work too.

regarding torture - I'm getting my info from what the interrogators have said in public hearing and not from "talking points"

regarding atheist morals I have no clue if they are arbitrary.  I'm not even aware of any cohesive atheist group so maybe you can show me where you get the info to support your claims

regarding your point about religion and torture - You're saying their is zero correlation btw. religious points of view and politcal points of view.  Is this correct?

[Straw Man]

you see you did it again "when you start getting to the really crazy end of the religious spectrum you've got guys like Roeder who's extreme relgious beliefs tell him it's ok, and even required to commit murder." those are not religious beliefs those are HIS beliefs...please show me where the christian religion says that this is ok...if you cant then its not a religious belief its HIS BELIEF...

Jesus was not tortured to get information he was tortured in the process of them killing him...totally different we didnt run around and torture ppl for shits and giggles or as a way of making death more displeasurable. Apples and oranges it seems you displeasure for religion specifically christianity causes you to lose your head straw and again make a jack ass out of yourself.

I missed this part - so you're saying torture is OK if you have a good reason and not just doing it for shits and giggles.....Gotcha

I feel pretty comfortable is saying that Roeders actions were informed by his extreme religious beliefs.   I'm not saying they were correct, I'm not saying they are condoned by the religion but it's disingenous of you to deny that his personal religious beliefs did not play a large part in his actions.   Why all the denial on this issue? 

[tonymctones]

tony  - can't you make your responses a bit shorter.  I'd like to respond but I'm trying to work too.

regarding torture - I'm getting my info from what the interrogators have said in public hearing and not from "talking points"

regarding atheist morals I have no clue if they are arbitrary.  I'm not even aware of any cohesive atheist group so maybe you can show me where you get the info to support your claims

regarding your point about religion and torture - You're saying their is zero correlation btw. religious points of view and politcal points of view.  Is this correct?

sorry man there is just alot to say about your stance on these issues and alot of misinformation to correct.

they say that is produces unreliable results, not that it doesnt work...when ppl have info they give it, its when they dont have info and are "tortured" they can give false statements...theres a difference

are you atheist straw? i assume you are taken your displeasure with religion where do your morals come from?

as ive already stated...

my point is that religion has nothing to do with being pro "torture" or not and neither does being conservative yes you can make a correlation between the 2 or 3 but again CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION...you can be pro enhanced interrogation techniques and be atheist or liberal...i honestly dont understand why atheist object to it at all as again morals from atheist are for the most part arbitrary and a logical stance can be made for "torture" by atheist.

[tonymctones]

I missed this part - so you're saying torture is OK if you have a good reason and not just doing it for shits and giggles.....Gotcha

I feel pretty comfortable is saying that Roeders actions were informed by his extreme religious beliefs.   I'm not saying they were correct, I'm not saying they are condoned by the religion but it's disingenous of you to deny that his personal religious beliefs did not play a large part in his actions.   Why all the denial on this issue? 

im fairly certain youre trying to be a smart ass and you totally missed my point...you tried to make a connection between the irony of the torture that Jesus went through and the torture that the US did to a FEW terrorist while the two are totally different situations in other words incomparable.

AGAIN SHOW ME WHERE THE RELIGION THAT HE FOLLOWS CHRISTIANITY ADVOCATES THESE TYPES OF ACTIONS...you cant b/c it doesnt there for his actions where do to HIS BELIEFS NOT TO HIS RELIGION. I believe that his personal beliefs contributed to his actions but again there was a point where the religious views stopped and his personal views took over I can see clearly more then likely b/c i dont have the haze of hatred covering my eyes.

Its not that there is denial im just smart enough to decipher from what the religion preachs and what a person twists it into.