Noahs Ark Found

[tu_holmes]

Religion is a hand me down preserved from generation to generation. It's built upon kind of like folklore, there is no fact, only heresay.  That is why the local church of 100 10 years ago is still the local church of about 100 adults.  If there was any fact / evidence on the existance of god or all these "stories the church would be growing.  What we need to do is avoid educating the mcway's and coaches of the world and focus on the kids, get a strict no god course in all schools so we can raise a generation of rational / logical human beings.  Perhaps at some point we can all live together...........

That's not true... I don't think it's right to say "no god"... and deny the fact that there are many people who believe in certain things.

I think it's best to educate all kids about everything... expose them. If they choose to believe, that's on them.

My son doesn't really believe, but it's because he questions things... He's an inquisitive guy.

I grew up in a catholic school environment, but I inquired about things and require answers.

Religion was good before society evolved, but now, we're a much more rational scientific group... We don't need "religion" anymore.

[Butterbean]

I'm glad you brought up free will.  Question:  If God created me in his image, he gave me reasoning skills, questioning, and free will.  If I use these skills and my free will to not believe, not follow the church, and live my life in a moral fashion outside the confines of religion, why would he punish me for that, he made me this way?

Hi double a ron!

Even believers have very hard times in life....is that what kind of punishment you are talking about?  Or is the punishment to which you are referring that according to the bible, unbelievers will not be in heaven?

If it's the latter, since you don't want to be with the God of the bible, do you really think it's punishment that you won't spend eternity with Him?

Also just to be clear according to the bible "following the church" and "[living your] life in a moral fashion" is not what gets you into heaven to spend eternity with God.  It's accepting (by faith/belief) the free gift of forgiveness He provides through belief/acceptance in Christ as Savior.

EPH 2:8,9:  You are saved by grace through faith and not of works so that no one can boast.

[double a ron]

Religion was good before society evolved, but now, we're a much more rational scientific group... We don't need "religion" anymore.

And just think what we could with the trillions of dollars in assets and income that Western Christians and churches control if we ended religion......  Oh what, you all forgot that religion is a business?

[MCWAY]

When things are going your way..."God is great".
When things are going downhill for you.."God is testing me"

What the fuck kind of test is it for those kids in Calcutta?  What about those miners?  Tsunami victims?  

And that’s about as ridiculous as rants from non-believers, such as:

When people do bad thing and God seemingly does nothing: “Why doesn’t God do something about” this, that or the other?

Once He does intervene and renders judgment, then it becomes, “Oh why is God so mean, why didn’t He do it this way or that way?”


Make up your mind, here.

[tu_holmes]

And just think what we could with the trillions of dollars in assets and income that Western Christians and churches control if we ended religion......  Oh what, you all forgot that religion is a business?

Who could forget that?

[MCWAY]

And just think what we could with the trillions of dollars in assets and income that Western Christians and churches control if we ended religion......  Oh what, you all forgot that religion is a business?

We could blow it, just as we have with the rest of the money we've frittered away. Religion wasn't the cause of our economic woes and ending religion (which ain't going to happen, especially with regards to Christianity) won't solve such woes.

[double a ron]

If it's the latter, since you don't want to be with the God of the bible, do you really think it's punishment that you won't spend eternity with Him?

Also just to be clear according to the bible "following the church" and "[living your] life in a moral fashion" is not what gets you into heaven to spend eternity with God.  It's accepting (by faith/belief) the free gift of forgiveness He provides through belief/acceptance in Christ as Savior.

If I don't beleive in him then why would I consider it punishment to not be with him, he does not exist.  The question is, if he does exist why would he sentance me to hell for using the free will that he "ellegibly" instilled me with.

I like the second part of your post.  Lets say I live a moral life, and it is amoral life in accordance to scripture, 10 commandments and all, but I do not beleive in god or accept christ.  I am going to hell, right?

As a contrast, if I am a priest, follow god my whole life, serve teh church, but I just so happen to sick my dick in a few boys asses, but after that I accept the gift of forgiveness and repent, then I am going to heavon, right?

If the above is accurate I will take my time in hell as I do not want any part of the hypocrisy of heaven.

[Butterbean]

The problem with free will is simple. If there isn't free will in heaven for the "saints" when they die, then why did God need to test us with it on earth, since without it in heaven we'd all obey God anyway? If there is no free will in heaven for the "saints" when they die, then how did Satan gain free will while in heaven which he purportedly used to rebel? If free will is so valuable, then why would God reward the "saints" in heaven by taking it away from them, but punish "sinners" in hell by letting them keep it ?

I haven't read the whole thread so I missed it but Lurker who said or where are you getting that there isn't free will in heaven?

[tu_holmes]

If free will IS in heaven, does that mean I can get into heaven and do whatever I want to and I get to stay?

I mean... once I'm saved... boom.

[double a ron]

We could blow it, just as we have with the rest of the money we've frittered away. Religion wasn't the cause of our economic woes and ending religion (which ain't going to happen, especially with regards to Christianity) won't solve such woes.

I didn't say religion caused any woes, just pointing out the fact that you are part of a very large business, nothing more.......

[double a ron]

Speaking of morals, the rate of pre-marital and extra-marital sex is about the same in Christians as Non Christians.  I don’t have to provide any proof for that statement though, I have faith that it is correct.

[double a ron]

Not mine...........but a good read.

Does God answer prayer? No. In 2006 the most complete prayer research study (Benson, H. 2006) showed that intersessionary prayer had NO POSITIVE EFFECT on heart patients. Indeed, some patients who were prayed for got worse! The simplest conclusion is that prayer does not work because God does not exist.

Does God help us to be good? No. We are told religion helps us live a virtuous life. For example, Christians (we are told) are 'born again' in Christ as better people (than non-Christians). Yet, the history of religion is one of bloodshed, burnings and torture by the Christian Church. The Inquisition tortured and burned alive thousands of people for daring to contradict their doctrines. Religion still creates killers: The 9/11, 7/7, and Bali bombers, the "Lords Resistance Army" in Congo, IRA/UDA in Northern Ireland and suicide bombers in Iraq and Israel/Palistine are just a few of the long list of religiously motivated murderers.

Since the decline of religion in the West however, and the rise of secular science, we have got more humane, more democratic and more liberal. Doesn't this indicate that we've been lied to about the benefits of religion?

Is "God = Love"? Take a look at the God of the Torah/Bible/Q'ran. God commands genocide, rape, murder, infanticide and dreadful punishments for minor infringements (for a list see http://www.evilbible.com/). Many believe God will eventually send millions to a Hell of eternal torture. Many religions enforce strict rules e.g. opposing gay rights and equal opportunities for women. Many demand harsh punishments (flogging, execution or cutting off limbs) for minor crimes (e.g. adultery), or for non-belief. Is fear the real motivation for belief? Is this a God you'd want? Wouldn't we be better off without this tyrant?

Does God save us? Remember the Tsunami of Boxing Day 2004: Did God command it, or was he powerless to prevent it? If the first He is evil, if the second, He is impotent or non-existent. Praying to God brought no protection. Moreover, Nature is 'red in tooth and claw'. Suffering, disease and death are written into the very design of the universe it seems... Is this a 'perfect' creation designed by a sadistic God or just blind evolution at work? Conclusion: God either delights in suffering, or He doesn't exist.

Does God exist? No. Science shows we don't need God to explain the universe. Research shows that God doesn't answer prayer. History shows belief in God doesn't make us good. The Bible/Torah/Q'ran show us that fear motivates belief, and Nature shows us that the universe is blind to our suffering. Conclusion: There is no God

[Butterbean]

If I don't beleive in him then why would I consider it punishment to not be with him, he does not exist.  The question is, if he does exist why would he sentance me to hell for using the free will that he "ellegibly" instilled me with.

I see you don't think it would be punishment not to be with Him.
Hell is eternal separation from God.  Since that's what you think you want (you don't! ), I don't see why you are implying it's a punishment....maybe I am inferring incorrectly?

I like the second part of your post.  Lets say I live a moral life, and it is amoral life in accordance to scripture, 10 commandments and all, but I do not beleive in god or accept christ.  I am going to hell, right?

No human on this earth is able to live completely in accordance to the 10 commandments.   

But yes, I believe if you never sinned then you would go to heaven when you died.

As a contrast, if I am a priest, follow god my whole life, serve teh church, but I just so happen to sick my dick in a few boys asses, but after that I accept the gift of forgiveness and repent, then I am going to heavon, right?

Yes, if you are a believer in Christ as Savior you go to heaven.

[double a ron]

Yes, if you are a believer in Christ as Savior you go to heaven.

Well you have fun up there with the sodomites.........

[Butterbean]

If free will IS in heaven, does that mean I can get into heaven and do whatever I want to and I get to stay?

I mean... once I'm saved... boom.

tu, where did the idea of no free will in heaven come from..I missed it?


In heaven, we will not have these exact same bodies.  The Spirit/Soul gets saved, the fleshly body does not.  I believe we will not sin in Heaven...we will be in perfect accordance w/God's will and won't even want to sin.

[Butterbean]

Well you have fun up there with the sodomites.........

Thanks!  Might be a few in hell too though.

[MCWAY]

But if god is omnipotent, then would said "omnipotent" creator make a mistake, and then REPENT for it.  If he really is omnipotent he could have just fixed everything.  If the reason he couldn't fix everything without the flood then he is no omnipotent, and that opens up a whole new can of worms..........

And this alleged can of worms would be what?

And the fix is what, destroy man in his entirety (Noah and family included) with no chance of redemption, or simply let man continue to cause havoc and chaos, unchecked with without consequence?

Or, perhaps worse, FORCE MAN to obey Him, giving man no free will to act on his own?

[tu_holmes]

Stella, you know I love ya... I just can't get with the whole "God" thing.

[double a ron]

Thanks!  Might be a few of those in hell too.

At least I will know they are, not lured in by someone doing god's work and then getting poked.............

[Butterbean]

Stella, you know I love ya... I just can't get with the whole "God" thing.

Hopefully one day! ....love Tu too

[double a ron]

And this alleged can of worms would be what?

And the fix is what, destroy man in his entirety (Noah and family included) with no chance of redemption, or simply let man continue to cause havoc and chaos, unchecked with without consequence?

Or, perhaps worse, FORCE MAN to obey Him, giving man no free will to act on his own?

The can of worms is that if he is omnipotent, then he can do whatever he wants, so there is no reason to have an ark built, do I need to spell it out, he does not exist.  If he did he wouldn't need noah to do it for him.......  Oah and let man continue to cause havoc and chaos, that worked out well didn't it......

[Butterbean]

At least I will know they are, not lured in by someone doing god's work and then getting poked.............

lol  I think I'll be OK.


Watch yourself too though 

[double a ron]

My last post for now…….a few things to think about.....

So God is all knowing, all seeing, knows what we are thinking / doing, and he knows what is best for us.  Question:  Why do we pray.  First off he already knows what we are thinking, why put our hands together bow our heads and address him.  Also, if he knows what is best, then if we pray to change something that is happening (i.e.: pray to cure a loved ones cancer) then are we not questioning god, I mean god made them sick and he knows best, why question him.  If he thinks it’s best for the cancer to go away he will make it so.  So again, question:  why pray?

Also, and interesting little tidbit……Western Christians and churches control trillions of dollars in assets and income, while 850 million people, including 200 million Christians, are currently starving. If Western Christians gave just 5% of their income towards this, it would solve the problem totally.  The combined personal income of church members is $15 trillion a year while each member spends on average $7.80 a year on foreign missions or about one one-thousandth of their income.  Not very Christian like……….lol

By no means am I looking to release you from the shackles of religion, just asking you to think about what you are conforming to, it is not a sin, and besides you can get around sins no prob, confession and boom, back in the good books……  The reason reactions are so strong is that you use no rational thought, no independent thought, you take everything you are told at face value.  You say you believe and that’s it, while we use reason, science, etc to base our views on.  I’d imagine this is an envious position, as the church does not allow you to do this……….

[LurkerNoMore]

I haven't read the whole thread so I missed it but Lurker who said or where are you getting that there isn't free will in heaven?

By the very basis of what heaven is and how to gain entry, free will simply can not exist in heaven.  It is impossible to under the Christian notions and guidelines they bleat about. 

[LurkerNoMore]

When people do bad thing and God seemingly does nothing: “Why doesn’t God do something about” this, that or the other?

Once He does intervene and renders judgment, then it becomes, “Oh why is God so mean, why didn’t He do it this way or that way?”

Bingo.  The entire hypocrisy I spoke of.

I am not sure why you needed to go out of your way to repeat the same thing I said in different words and agree with me.