Saddam shot at our planes over 500 times

[240 is Back]

A repub congressman defending the war mentioned this tonight on MSNBC.

I instantly had two conflicting thoughts....

1) Wow, that's a good enough reason to bomb him into next year, and

2) Would we shoot at russian or chinese or iranian planes, if they flew 500+ times over our country?



what are your thoughts on this one?  I know he's dead and gone, but the repubs are using THIS as the reason we should have invaded in light of no WMD, so it is relevant.

[OzmO]

That's no reason.

Saddam was one predictable thing.  He would not do anything that might cause he removal from power.  That would include, harboring terrorists, or using WMD's.  (very different from religious nut jobs who want to die)

Let's just face facts.  BUSH found a way to justify going into Iraq.  He believed democracy would flourish there and the oil companies loved him for that and took full advantage of the opportunity along with many other entities.

Now we really can't leave.

And you have to ask yourself, was it worth it?

-  almost 500 billion in debt
-  10 of thousands of lives lost
-  No end in sight
-  And gas when up anyway.

So if the 80 trillion in oil is as you say, i guess our rich stay richer and we "feel" safer.   

[Brixtonbulldog]

That's no reason.

Saddam was one predictable thing.  He would not do anything that might cause he removal from power.  That would include, harboring terrorists, or using WMD's.  (very different from religious nut jobs who want to die)

Let's just face facts.  BUSH found a way to justify going into Iraq.  He believed democracy would flourish there and the oil companies loved him for that and took full advantage of the opportunity along with many other entities.

Now we really can't leave.

And you have to ask yourself, was it worth it?

-  almost 500 billion in debt
-  10 of thousands of lives lost
-  No end in sight
-  And gas when up anyway.

So if the 80 trillion in oil is as you say, i guess our rich stay richer and we "feel" safer.   

BS Post.

I don't hear anyone complaining about the $$$ wasted over the last 30 years by dems in a failed education system, welfare, blowing our social security money, funding absurd programs that go nowhere and do nothing, etc.  I think a war destroying our enemies, destroying terrorists, and creating a massive presence in the middle of a part of the world bent on the west's demise is a little more worth while.

You must be counting all of those assholes we're fighting in that death toll.  Hardly a good argument.  Lowest casualties on our side of ANY major conflict.

"No end in sight" means nothing..  absolutely ziltch.  I wonder how many times that was said in EVERY OTHER WAR SINCE THE DAWN OF MAN.

War or no war.. there's enough oil on this continent to sustain us for over 300 years.  The idiot dems won't let us get at it by pretending it would destroy the environment.

And in regards to the argument at hand:

Clinton established operations Northern and Southern watch after the first gulf war.  We patrolled Iraq since after that conflict.  When Saddam began rebuilding his military right under our noses he started shooting at our patrols.  Clinton did nothing.  Bush did.  Not just for that reason but you could add that to an already massive list to destroy Iraq.

[Bindare_Dundat]

America is bankrupt.

It's borrowing BILLIONS everyday (that it will have to repay) and people are still thinking up reasons as to why America went to war in Iraq 5 years after it started? 

It's costing a trillion dollars a year to keep the empire going and people think that war has no effect on the economy?!

Before the war oil was cheaper than it is now and there was no threat to the supply, it's not the Iraqi's were gonna drink the stuff, they'd sell to whoever wants to buy it.

It's time to stop finding excuses as to why the war started, get out and focus on the economy.

[Bindare_Dundat]

BS Post.

 

[Brixtonbulldog]

I have no understanding of economics but the little I do understand must be Bush's fault because someone else told me.

  Accuracy

[Bindare_Dundat]

  Accuracy

You'll wake up one day my friend. 

[240 is Back]

War or no war.. there's enough oil on this continent to sustain us for over 300 years.  The idiot dems won't let us get at it by pretending it would destroy the environment.

Repubs owned white house and congress for 6 straight years, 2000 til 2006.

Why didn't they ignore the silly dems and do what was right by driling for oil at that time?

Very hard to blame the party that has no power, dude.

[Brixtonbulldog]

Repubs owned white house and congress for 6 straight years, 2000 til 2006.

Why didn't they ignore the silly dems and do what was right by driling for oil at that time?

Very hard to blame the party that has no power, dude.

Yet another reason the GOP pisses me off from time to time by not getting enough done and not following through on the agenda they were elected for.

[OzmO]

BS Post.

I don't hear anyone complaining about the $$$ wasted over the last 30 years by dems in a failed education system, welfare, blowing our social security money, funding absurd programs that go nowhere and do nothing, etc. 

Then maybe you need to get out more and take your blinders off.   Heaven forbid we sunk 500 billion into our education system.

I think a war destroying our enemies, destroying terrorists, and creating a massive presence in the middle of a part of the world bent on the west's demise is a little more worth while

More worthwhile than securing our borders?  More worth while than educating our children?  More worth while than ensuring every child in the greatest country int he world gets health care? 

I don't think so.  It's only worth while to short sighted people who think a presence in Afghanistan wasn't enough. 

The problem is that it's too late for that.  We are stuck in Iraq.

You must be counting all of those assholes we're fighting in that death toll.  Hardly a good argument.  Lowest casualties on our side of ANY major conflict.

Sorry, i counted innocent dead iraqis and wounded and maimed US service men.  Guess they they don;t count to you.

"No end in sight" means nothing..  absolutely ziltch.  I wonder how many times that was said in EVERY OTHER WAR SINCE THE DAWN OF MAN.

More evidence you don't have any real understanding of what's going on over there as you actually compare this to other wars.

War or no war.. there's enough oil on this continent to sustain us for over 300 years.  The idiot dems won't let us get at it by pretending it would destroy the environment.

pretending?      again more evidence of brainwashing.  It won't destroy anything, it will take away from it that's all.  I say take their oil first.

Clinton established operations Northern and Southern watch after the first gulf war.  We patrolled Iraq since after that conflict.  When Saddam began rebuilding his military right under our noses he started shooting at our patrols.  Clinton did nothing.  Bush did.  Not just for that reason but you could add that to an already massive list to destroy Iraq.

More evidence of a tool, blaming Clinton.   

[Brixtonbulldog]

Then maybe you need to get out more and take your blinders off.   Heaven forbid we sunk 500 billion into our education system.

I'm out.. no blinders.  I know you people don't like hearing logic and the truth.

More worthwhile than securing our borders?  More worth while than educating our children?  More worth while than ensuring every child in the greatest country int he world gets health care? 

Somehow by being in Iraq we shitcanned our education system?  lol.. as if soldiers would be here teaching instead or even better the money being spent in defense would change something if it was thrown at the educational establishment.  Yeah we already tried that.. didn't work.  This is the dumbest argument ever.  All of the above is important and we'd be doing the same shit iraq or no.

I don't think so.  It's only worth while to short sighted people who think a presence in Afghanistan wasn't enough. 

okay

The problem is that it's too late for that.  We are stuck in Iraq.

I know right? I mean, who knew this was gonna be difficult?!?! Jeez..

Sorry, i counted innocent dead iraqis and wounded and maimed US service men.  Guess they they don;t count to you.

So you distorted the facts and then pretended I was some heartless schmoe.. typical liberal.

More evidence you don't have any real understanding of what's going on over there as you actually compare this to other wars.

More evidence of your refusal to accept that something good might actually come out of this. 

pretending?      again more evidence of brainwashing.  It won't destroy anything, it will take away from it that's all.  I say take their oil first.

It won't... modern drilling methods barely destroy any land and the benefits are astronomical.  Only a fool would try to stop this.

More evidence of a tool, blaming Clinton.   

I could blame so much more of the mess we're in today on Clinton it's not even funny.  It's obvious you haven't even looked into the amount of crap that guy got us into.  At the top of that list is the war on terror and the fact that he had done NOTHING.  But your personal hatred of Bush clouds your ability to see that recent problems could be anyone elses mess.

[headhuntersix]

Clinton got us into the wrong side of alot of shit. Its kinda funny that the muslims completely forget that we helped, along with the rest of Nato, in Bosnia. We saved them from being completely wiped out. I;'m sure there are plenty of Serbs who, after looking at our last few years in the Middle East, are wonder what that was all about and telling us, " I told u So".

[Decker]

The 'no-fly zones' in Iraq were establish by the US primarily and have no legal basis.

I swear, the US just makes shit up as it goes along. 

Clinton did a lot of stupid things and this is one of them.

[OzmO]

I'm out.. no blinders.  I know you people don't like hearing logic and the truth.

you people?   

Somehow by being in Iraq we shitcanned our education system?  lol.. as if soldiers would be here teaching instead or even better the money being spent in defense would change something if it was thrown at the educational establishment.  Yeah we already tried that.. didn't work.  This is the dumbest argument ever.  All of the above is important and we'd be doing the same shit iraq or no.

No the dumbest argument is you saying spending money on education wouldn't help it.  Have you looked at our rankings in the world on education?  Do you think if we put more money there to pay teachers and keep educational programs that are being cut every day it wouldn't raise our standing?  Or is that too complex for you to understand? 

I know right? I mean, who knew this was gonna be difficult?!?! Jeez.. Grin

Actually i didn't think it was until some dumbass (Rumsfeld) sent too few troops and had only one aftermath plan that involved PC ROE's.

So you distorted the facts and then pretended I was some heartless schmoe.. typical liberal.

You are what you are.  I didn't distort anything.

This is what i said:

-  10 of thousands of lives lost

Explain to me how i distorted anything.

Are you saying an innocent Iraqi life is somehow less important?  Your answer speaks for its self.

More evidence of your refusal to accept that something good might actually come out of this. 

Yeah, but at what expense?

and this is what you said:

"No end in sight" means nothing..  absolutely ziltch.  I wonder how many times that was said in EVERY OTHER WAR SINCE THE DAWN OF MAN.

Which means you are comparing it others wars.  there is no comparison.  It's not even a war.  It's an insurgency.  We won the war.  the war we are fighting is not anything like the wars we fought before.

We are dealing with infighting religious nut jobs.  This shit will continue against us like it has for between them for hundreds of years.

It won't... modern drilling methods barely destroy any land and the benefits are astronomical.  Only a fool would try to stop this.

No, only a fool wouldn't use someone else's oil first.  And you are well brainwashed by your conservative blow hards regarding what drilling does to an environment, granted it's much better, but still damaging.

I could blame so much more of the mess we're in today on Clinton it's not even funny.  It's obvious you haven't even looked into the amount of crap that guy got us into.  At the top of that list is the war on terror and the fact that he had done NOTHING.  But your personal hatred of Bush clouds your ability to see that recent problems could be anyone else's mess.

We are in this mess becuase of Bush's decision to invade Iraq and the decisions afterwards.  What ever Clinton did or didn't do had little to do with an attack that was coming and we couldn't stop.  Even if he  gets OBL, so what?  Like that would have stopped anything.

[headhuntersix]

"We are in this mess becuase of Bush's decision to invade Iraq and the decisions afterwards.  What ever Clinton did or didn't do had little to do with an attack that was coming and we couldn't stop.  Even if he  gets OBL, so what?  Like that would have stopped anything"


It had alot to do..it had everything to do with 911. OBL stated that he thought the US was a paper tiger after Somalia..one major pitched battle, and we pulled out. That fired him and his organization up...if Bill smokes him in 1998..that puts a major dent in AQ and maybe the attacks don't take place. Maybe the Taliban get rolled over by the Northern Alliance and we don't have to invade. Masoud lives....it has everything to do with Clinton. Each mistake...going back to Carter builds on itself. There is plenty to blame here. 911 did not happen ina vaccum.

[OzmO]

"We are in this mess becuase of Bush's decision to invade Iraq and the decisions afterwards.  What ever Clinton did or didn't do had little to do with an attack that was coming and we couldn't stop.  Even if he  gets OBL, so what?  Like that would have stopped anything"


It had alot to do..it had everything to do with 911. OBL stated that he thought the US was a paper tiger after Somalia..one major pitched battle, and we pulled out. That fired him and his organization up...if Bill smokes him in 1998..that puts a major dent in AQ and maybe the attacks don't take place. Maybe the Taliban get rolled over by the Northern Alliance and we don't have to invade. Masoud lives....it has everything to do with Clinton. Each mistake...going back to Carter builds on itself. There is plenty to blame here. 911 did not happen ina vaccum.

HH6, hindsight is 20/20.  That's easy to say.  Had we done our job then, there would have been others taking that torch.  HecK you could blame OBL parents for if ya wanted to.  Some one wrote a while back on this forum that we are in a cultural war so to speak.  I think they are right.  OBL is simply one in an ant's nest. 

[headhuntersix]

Its not hindsight...if they got him in 98, things in Afghanistan would have be radically different. Regardless Clinton has a major share in the blame for 911. Its a historical debate..no question. The point now is what is to be done in Iraq. We are winning..will that continue? Will the Dems take power and then allow us to finish. Will a pull-out invite more home attacks down the road?

[OzmO]

Its not hindsight...if they got him in 98, things in Afghanistan would have be radically different. Regardless Clinton has a major share in the blame for 911. Its a historical debate..no question. The point now is what is to be done in Iraq. We are winning..will that continue? Will the Dems take power and then allow us to finish. Will a pull-out invite more home attacks down the road?

Well it is hindsight, because we are saying we should have got OBL becuase of what he was going to do.   How does Clinton or anyone know that then?  Had he known....  of course he takes him out.  Besides there may have been other factors in OBL's release becuase of relations with the Saudi royal family

[Brixtonbulldog]

Well it is hindsight, because we are saying we should have got OBL becuase of what he was going to do.   How does Clinton or anyone know that then?  Had he known....  of course he takes him out.  Besides there may have been other factors in OBL's release becuase of relations with the Saudi royal family

This directly relates to my earlier posts about removing problems BEFORE they get bigger.  Exactly why Saddams destruction was so important.

[Brixtonbulldog]

you people?   

Liberals.. such as yourself.

No the dumbest argument is you saying spending money on education wouldn't help it.  Have you looked at our rankings in the world on education?  Do you think if we put more money there to pay teachers and keep educational programs that are being cut every day it wouldn't raise our standing?  Or is that too complex for you to understand? 

We've been throwing money at the Education system for years and we're failing worse than ever.  YOU CANNOT JUST THROW MONEY AT THIS PROBLEM.  Never worked, never will.  On that note, Bush signed the largest education bill in US history yet I don't hear any praise for that.  I have to assume you ignored it since it didn't support your hate filled agenda.

Actually i didn't think it was until some dumbass (Rumsfeld) sent too few troops and had only one aftermath plan that involved PC ROE's.

Because your liberal cohorts stiffled every attempt to properly support the war from the beginning.  Yet another easy to understand point that you conveniently forget about.

You are what you are.  I didn't distort anything.

Other than the truth...

Explain to me how i distorted anything.

You included the deaths of iraqi militants, insurgents and terrorists in that casualty list like it's a BAD thing.  That's like saying it was a bad thing that 100,000 nazis died in WW2 or 400,000 Vietcong and NVA died in 'nam.  (just for example) 

That's distorting the facts plain and simple and you know it.

Are you saying an innocent Iraqi life is somehow less important?  Your answer speaks for its self.

No, I'm saying we should be concerned with OUR citizens first, OUR soldiers second, innocent deaths third. 

Yeah, but at what expense?

Nat'l security is the most important issue, period.  Always will be.  It's kinda hard to debate any other issue when terrorists and enemies are trying to kill you or your allies.

Which means you are comparing it others wars.  there is no comparison.  It's not even a war.  It's an insurgency.  We won the war.  the war we are fighting is not anything like the wars we fought before.

Yes there is definitely a comparison.. but I can see how badly you want to separate the two since without doing so your argument is thin as paper.

We are dealing with infighting religious nut jobs.  This shit will continue against us like it has for between them for hundreds of years.

Better to fight religious nut jobs in Iraq while they can't reach us with soldiers than in NYC, or DC after the fact, and with civilians.

No, only a fool wouldn't use someone else's oil first.  And you are well brainwashed by your conservative blow hards regarding what drilling does to an environment, granted it's much better, but still damaging.

So you WANT us to be dependent on foreign oil.. interesting.  Esp. at a time when we need to be as self sufficient as possible.  And no the damage to the environment is so minimal no one can come up with a good argument otherwise... do some research on it.

We are in this mess becuase of Bush's decision to invade Iraq and the decisions afterwards.  What ever Clinton did or didn't do had little to do with an attack that was coming and we couldn't stop.  Even if he  gets OBL, so what?  Like that would have stopped anything.

see HH6's post... right on the money.

[Bindare_Dundat]

Liberals.. such as yourself.

We've been throwing money at the Education system for years and we're failing worse than ever.  YOU CANNOT JUST THROW MONEY AT THIS PROBLEM.  Never worked, never will.  On that note, Bush signed the largest education bill in US history yet I don't hear any praise for that.  I have to assume you ignored it since it didn't support your hate filled agenda.

Because your liberal cohorts stiffled every attempt to properly support the war from the beginning.  Yet another easy to understand point that you conveniently forget about.

Other than the truth...

You included the deaths of iraqi militants, insurgents and terrorists in that casualty list like it's a BAD thing.  That's like saying it was a bad thing that 100,000 nazis died in WW2 or 400,000 Vietcong and NVA died in 'nam.  (just for example) 

That's distorting the facts plain and simple and you know it.

No, I'm saying we should be concerned with OUR citizens first, OUR soldiers second, innocent deaths third. 

Nat'l security is the most important issue, period.  Always will be.  It's kinda hard to debate any other issue when terrorists and enemies are trying to kill you or your allies.

Yes there is definitely a comparison.. but I can see how badly you want to separate the two since without doing so your argument is thin as paper.

Better to fight religious nut jobs in Iraq while they can't reach us with soldiers than in NYC, or DC after the fact, and with civilians.

So you WANT us to be dependent on foreign oil.. interesting.  Esp. at a time when we need to be as self sufficient as possible.  And no the damage to the environment is so minimal no one can come up with a good argument otherwise... do some research on it.

see HH6's post... right on the money.

I dont know if you know this but most Republicans want America out of Iraq and think it wasnt worth the blood and money.  Ron Paul was the only guy to get an applause when he was asked his opinion on the war. You are in the minority.

[Brixtonbulldog]

I dont know if you know this but most Republicans want America out of Iraq and think it wasnt worth the blood and money.  Ron Paul was the only guy to get an applause when he was asked his opinion on the war. You are in the minority.

Feeble attempts from the GOP to distance themselves from an unpopular president should be a pretty obvious example of politicians doing what politicians do.. worrying about votes.  It's the smart move.  Not being one allows me to say whatever I want including that I think most repubs not only want victory in Iraq but want Iran to be next.  But we all know even if that was the case none of them would say it.  It's understandable.

Nevertheless, being in the minority of anything doesn't mean much compared to being factual, logical, and right.

[OzmO]

This directly relates to my earlier posts about removing problems BEFORE they get bigger.  Exactly why Saddams destruction was so important.

Brix, are you implying guilty by intention?

[OzmO]

Liberals.. such as yourself.

What makes me liberal?

We've been throwing money at the Education system for years and we're failing worse than ever.  YOU CANNOT JUST THROW MONEY AT THIS PROBLEM.  Never worked, never will.  On that note, Bush signed the largest education bill in US history yet I don't hear any praise for that.  I have to assume you ignored it since it didn't support your hate filled agenda.

Did i infer we should trow money at the education problem?

I honestly believe we could have a great education system if spent the money properly, and we could even have health care for every child  with out raising taxes.

Butt, the truth remains, 500 billion spent properly in this country would change it over night.  If it was ran like a Warren Buffet company, we wouldn't waste crap and we get shit done.

Because your liberal cohorts stiffled every attempt to properly support the war from the beginning.  Yet another easy to understand point that you conveniently forget about.

This is where your understanding about things shows how brain washed you are.

It was Bush's final say and Rumsfield call.  PERIOD.  You are trying to tell me, liberals have that much control over BUSH?  Are you fucking kidding me?  If so, Pelosi would have been named President by Bush by now.

Wake up brix.

You included the deaths of iraqi militants, insurgents and terrorists in that casualty list like it's a BAD thing.  That's like saying it was a bad thing that 100,000 nazis died in WW2 or 400,000 Vietcong and NVA died in 'nam.  (just for example)

That's distorting the facts plain and simple and you know it.

Show me where i said, iraqi militants, insurgents and terrorists.... or i said not including or what ever....  If i didn't say it i didn't mean it.   the fact stands   thousands have died.   do you deny that?  Do you deny that some of those are innocent, thousand of them?

At least have the courage to debate what i actually say, not what your brain washed mind thinks i said, or  supports your programming.

Better to fight religious nut jobs in Iraq while they can't reach us with soldiers than in NYC, or DC after the fact, and with civilians.

you are kidding again right?  You really think they are "ALL" in iraq fighting there?  What do they gain by killing with an IED versus blowing up a shopping mall in the USA?   Use some common sense, the shopping mall iis 1000 times better and more damaging.  Do you really think our borders are secure?  You are such an entertaining tool. 

So you WANT us to be dependent on foreign oil.. interesting.  Esp. at a time when we need to be as self sufficient as possible.  And no the damage to the environment is so minimal no one can come up with a good argument otherwise... do some research on it.

Hmmm let's see, we were Dependant on it before and gas was $1.69.  Now we are all over it, and it's $3. 

Yeah ok,  you are swallowing the BS about demand and how they can;t keep up with it while Exxon posts 9 billion in profits.  right.

 

[Brixtonbulldog]

What makes me liberal?

What doesn't?  So far you've touted every liberal idea about the current president, education system, and national security.  Tell us why you are NOT liberal.

Did i infer we should trow money at the education problem?

I honestly believe we could have a great education system if spent the money properly, and we could even have health care for every child  with out raising taxes.

Yes, actually you did.. by saying the money would better spent trying to fix it.  I love how you try to forget the shit that you've been saying mere hours later though.. very classy.

Butt, the truth remains, 500 billion spent properly in this country would change it over night.  If it was ran like a Warren Buffet company, we wouldn't waste crap and we get shit done.

Dream on buddy.. the money isn't the problem.  Another liberal idealist mindset "the money will fix it."

This is where your understanding about things shows how brain washed you are.

Being better informed doesn't equal brainwashing.  Sorry

It was Bush's final say and Rumsfield call.  PERIOD.  You are trying to tell me, liberals have that much control over BUSH?  Are you fucking kidding me?  If so, Pelosi would have been named President by Bush by now.

Yeah, even in the face of severe opposition it was the right thing to do.  I was just pointing out how dems were once again the problem, not the solution. 

Wake up brix.

Show me where i said, iraqi militants, insurgents and terrorists.... or i said not including or what ever....  If i didn't say it i didn't mean it.   the fact stands   thousands have died.   do you deny that?  Do you deny that some of those are innocent, thousand of them?

Oh gimmie a break.. you know exactly what you tried to do.  Including bad guys deaths in the total just to make your complaint seem more relevant.  Some of those in EVERY war are innocent.  Does that mean every war we've fought has accomplished nothing?  Another stupid argument, thanks.

At least have the courage to debate what i actually say, not what your brain washed mind thinks i said, or  supports your programming.

I did, see above.  (Again with the brain washing, huh? Running out of things to say or it makes you really angry to have your arguments blow up in your face and you be exposed as just another lefty bush hater.)

you are kidding again right?  You really think they are "ALL" in iraq fighting there?  What do they gain by killing with an IED versus blowing up a shopping mall in the USA?   Use some common sense, the shopping mall iis 1000 times better and more damaging.  Do you really think our borders are secure?  You are such an entertaining tool. 

Well, obviously, MANY are there.  And being slaughtered by our troops.  If you don't understand why they're flooding there I don't have time to explain it to you.  Do some more research as to WHY and get back to me.

Hmmm let's see, we were Dependant on it before and gas was $1.69.  Now we are all over it, and it's $3. 

So now you don't understand war AND economics.. not surprising.  Let's start with.. we haven't been allowed to build a refinery in 20 years.

Yeah ok,  you are swallowing the BS about demand and how they can;t keep up with it while Exxon posts 9 billion in profits.  right.

Once agian... economics have failed you.