The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.

[hench]

definitely look thicker but the angle of the arm is different also.
Vince did you measure your arm at the very start of your experiment?

[ayedee]

No difference in the arm and you are twice as close to the camera. Dream on Mr. Australia 2011.

[Mick33]

I said I thought I could still build muscle at my age and completely natural and without any supplements whatever. I am into the experiment now and completed my 4th arm workout today. Training only arms at the moment. Biceps and triceps supersets. Ending in 6 sets with the maximum resistance. Progressing rapidly which is almost scary! Mostly regaining some of my former size. I am confident I can get bigger arms than I have previouly had. Should be an interesting experiment. I will show you guys because I need a strong incentive to keep this training going. So far there is no hint of any diminished response to hypertrophy training. This is what I predicted for myself. I can't say it would be the same for everyone else. I won't even consider using any drugs or supplements. This is a purely natural experiment to show what is possible as one gets older.

Good for you Vince! Very inspiring stuff.

[Vince B]

definitely look thicker but the angle of the arm is different also.
Vince did you measure your arm at the very start of your experiment?

Bodybuilders don't like to measure themselves if they know they are smaller than they want to be. Sort of like fat people not wanting to know what they weigh on the scale. So I guess my arms were about 16 inches or perhaps a bit smaller! They are approaching 18 cold in the mornings now. You can't really tell from the photos but my arms are approximately an inch larger since my birthday. I have to say that I get a lot of local pain in the elbows so am progressing very slowly. Once I get pumped, most of the pain evaporates. A couple of times I had to wait until the 4th day to retrain. That isn't good to miss days but my joints were a worry so I held off. Another time I was sick for several days. As I get stronger the joints take more of a beating. 12 years ago when I tried training like this I ended up getting injuries. I placed my elbows on pads during the lying extensions and damaged the sheath that covers the elbow joint. Not nice so I had to stop training arms. I was also training calves that month but used ballistic movements and ended up damaging my Achilles tendons. So I gave up that as well. This is the first time I have trained regularly since 1995. I need motivation. So the assorted dickheads bagging me actually help a little!

I even modified my lying triceps extension machine and put the pulley about a foot higher. Feels more effective now. Larry Scott said 5 feet but closer to 6 is better. The path of the cable travels almost in a straight line which is ideal. I am always thinking about improving gym equipment. Now I have to modify the second triceps machine.

[Vince B]

Here is the best machine for triceps that I have used.

[ayedee]

Pops, you are feeling all those aches and pains because your are ancient and haven't trained much for years. Take my advice and forget weights and machines. Take the dog for a walk and after do some very light exercises with some latex rubber tubing. You should also lose some weight. You must be around 30 or 40 lbs overweight.

[Primemuscle]

Pops, you are feeling all those aches and pains because your are ancient and haven't trained much for years. Take my advice and forget weights and machines. Take the dog for a walk and after do some very light exercises with some latex rubber tubing. You should also lose some weight. You must be around 30 or 40 lbs overweight.

Although this advice you offered was not to me, I am only two years behind Vince, so it caught my attention.

While I don't mind being the age I am, your calling Vince "Pops" seems a bit rude unless you and he are close friends. Guys at the gym where I work out, don't call me Pops, they call me by my name, showing me the same respect they would anyone else.

Your advice is good advice for anyone who is not particularly fit or doesn't have a history which includes weight training. There is nothing wrong with walking the dog per se. However, if a fellow has weight trained most his life, why should he not do it until he dies? Sure, anyone who has taken a holiday from the gym should ease back into it. And perhaps the older one is the more careful they should be about this. But your suggestions come off as if one shouldn't train with weights at all after certain age and that is just wrong. There are fellows at my gym who still lift and they are close to eighty years old. Some of them look a heck of a lot better then some younger guys do.

Vince no doubt knows what his body can and cannot do. Sure, he is pushing himself just like most anyone does. If people stopped training just because they felt a little sore, no one would train more than one time in their life.

As for Vince's weight, he looks a bit chubby in those photos. However, I doubt you have the ability to determine just how much weight he should or shouldn't lose just by looking at a couple of photographs. So your suggestion that he lose 30 to 40 lbs. uncalled for.

I assume you are a younger person. It is somewhat amusing when younger folks act as if they know it all....especially to us older folks. Just remember, with any luck at all, you too will be sixty-nine someday. Perhaps all you'll be able to do is walk the dog and play around with rubber bands. That is entirely up to you.

[ayedee]

The same advice applies to you Prime. BTW 67 is about 30 or 40 years past your prime. I am in my mid sixties.

[Primemuscle]

The same advice applies to you Prime. BTW 67 is about 30 or 40 years past your prime. I am in my mid sixties.

My doctor's advice differs from yours. When it comes to health, fitness and geriatrics, what are your credentials? Or, are you speaking from personal experience?

Incidentally, I do walk my dogs most days. I am normally very healthy for a man of any age. Although I am currently suffering from some low back pain which is completely unrelated to working out with weights. -Quite the opposite in fact. I missed about four weeks going to the gym because of bronchitis. My back going out is the result of not exercising as opposed to exercising. When I saw my doctor today, he suggested I do some stretching exercises to loosen up my back muscles which are tense because of the back pain.

Perhaps you were in your prime thirty or forty years ago. This is not the case with me. I was sickly as a child and young adult. I hit my prime much later in life. Anyway, part of being in one's prime has to do with their state of mind. I adopted the handle, Primemuscle in the 1980's when I first started playing around with bulletin boards on the computer. I like it, it has a positive ring to it and so I will keep it until I die. Maybe it seems like an oxymoron to you, but I am not you.

Some folks develop arthritis as they age. Did you know that resistance training helps alleviate some of the problems caused by arthritis?

[ayedee]

Describe your current workout, and how long have you been training? Basile is living in the past. 40 years ago he was in good shape, but after that only trained spasmodically. Now at 70 he states that he will regain his shape of 40 years ago, be just as lean and have bigger muscles. Talk about being delusional. He is only seeking attention that's all. I am sorry you were sicky as a child and young man and have been unwell recently.

[Vince B]

Looks like we have another Old Guy on this forum.

You know, have a look at most of the former champions. Who still has good size? Zane? Nope. Scott? Nope. Arnold? Nope. Sergio? Nope. Draper? Nope. Viator? Yes. Robinson? Yes. Nubret? He is gone but he was an exception. Goodness knows who is natural and who is not these days. My quest was to see what I could do by the time I reach my 70th birthday. Many of the wannabe experts here suggest it is not possible to build much muscle at my age. They figure you cannot go back in time. Well, my experience tells me that I can still grow. The hypertrophy response is better than in my youth because I know how to stimulate the muscles to grow now. In the old days it was hit and miss. We grew imperceptibly so didn't have a clue about what worked and what didn't. So we tried all the methods that were popular in the muscle magazines. There was no internet to communicate with other bodybuilders. There was no drug information and that subject was taboo because the medical profession was warned us of the dangerous side effects of steroids. It turns out that the warnings were over the top. However, who would have predicted the extent of drugs in bodybuilding? Injections of oil and all manner of crap. So my mission is to prove that you don't need those drugs. You don't need to waste money on supplements.

[ayedee]

You have offered no proof that you have gained even as much as one ounce of muscle with your so called experiment. You have not stated height, weight, or body fat percentage. All you have said is that your arms are bigger and are very hard. They are not bigger and you look soft and flabby. If you knew something that others did not, you would perhaps look good for your age. Your pics suggest otherwise. Are you also going to regain and then surpass your strength levels of 40 years ago? Surely regaining strength is better than trying to increase your arm size. Being a gym owner and spending so much time there you have little excuse for your present sorry looking condition.

[DeltsaForce]

wut are da measurements of before and after as i don't see much difference in da last two?

[Vince B]

You have offered no proof that you have gained even as much as one ounce of muscle with your so called experiment. You have not stated height, weight, or body fat percentage. All you have said is that your arms are bigger and are very hard. They are not bigger and you look soft and flabby. If you knew something that others did not, you would perhaps look good for your age. Your pics suggest otherwise. Are you also going to regain and then surpass your strength levels of 40 years ago? Surely regaining strength is better than trying to increase your arm size. Being a gym owner and spending so much time there you have little excuse for your present sorry looking condition.

Hi Old Guy. What a sorry individual you are to create an account so you can continue bagging me here instead of at Ironage. Who the heck are you and what have you done in bodybuilding?

I am looking good for my age and the grannies are impressed!

Here is another photo. Look upon my works, ye mortals, and despair!

[berblexer]

no measurments = bullshit experiment

[Vince B]

no measurments = bullshit experiment

Here come the anonymous flotsam trying to annoy me. It takes real courage to conduct a Getbig experiment. Not many even try. So I am having a go and am

impressing the people I know and the members at my gym. That makes it all worthwhile. Losing fat won't be so easy! But that is stage 3 and won't happen until

sometime next year. I have gained over two inches on my arms already so the experiment is a success.

[Primemuscle]

Looks like we have another Old Guy on this forum.

You know, have a look at most of the former champions. Who still has good size? Zane? Nope. Scott? Nope. Arnold? Nope. Sergio? Nope. Draper? Nope. Viator? Yes. Robinson? Yes. Nubret? He is gone but he was an exception. Goodness knows who is natural and who is not these days. My quest was to see what I could do by the time I reach my 70th birthday. Many of the wannabe experts here suggest it is not possible to build much muscle at my age. They figure you cannot go back in time. Well, my experience tells me that I can still grow. The hypertrophy response is better than in my youth because I know how to stimulate the muscles to grow now. In the old days it was hit and miss. We grew imperceptibly so didn't have a clue about what worked and what didn't. So we tried all the methods that were popular in the muscle magazines. There was no internet to communicate with other bodybuilders. There was no drug information and that subject was taboo because the medical profession was warned us of the dangerous side effects of steroids. It turns out that the warnings were over the top. However, who would have predicted the extent of drugs in bodybuilding? Injections of oil and all manner of crap. So my mission is to prove that you don't need those drugs. You don't need to waste money on supplements.

To what time period do you refer when you mention that steroids were taboo? When I was sixteen, our family doctor put me on D-bol 5 mg a day and test shots once a week. I did this for about three months if I remember correctly. My weight went from 126 to 145 lbs. At eighteen I did a couple more "cycles" prescribed by the same doctor. At the conclusion of this time I reached a weight of 185 lbs at eighteen years of age. Albeit there was a lot of bloat. Steroids were legal at that time if prescribed by a doctor. Much in the way that testosterone is legal today if prescribed by a doctor. Needless to say, 5 mg a day is peanuts compared to what some bodybuilder often take.

Genetically speaking, you may not need drugs to get bigger, but I did. My mom never weighed more than about 125 lbs at 5'8" and my dad was 6'5" and weighed 175 lbs. I am from very skinny stock. Even today, if I don't work out, I lose weight. Just to opposite of most people.

[Primemuscle]

Here come the anonymous flotsam trying to annoy me. It takes real courage to conduct a Getbig experiment. Not many even try. So I am having a go and am

impressing the people I know and the members at my gym. That makes it all worthwhile. Losing fat won't be so easy! But that is stage 3 and won't happen until

sometime next year. I have gained over two inches on my arms already so the experiment is a success.

How much of this success do you attribute to so called  "muscle memory"? Judging from the size of your forearms, you are naturally a big guy. My guess is that you were a fairly big muscular dude in your day. My forearms, even though I work them hard are toothpicks compared to yours. Also, my elbow joint is a lot bonier than yours is.

[Ursus]

Know what?

Who am I to actually discredit you man. It is a good thing at your age you are training and try to improve in any aspect of your life etc.

Good luck.

[Vince B]

How much of this success do you attribute to so called  "muscle memory"? Judging from the size of your forearms, you are naturally a big guy. My guess is that you were a fairly big muscular dude in your day. My forearms, even though I work them hard are toothpicks compared to yours. Also, my elbow joint is a lot bonier than yours is.

We all use terms we really know bugger all about. That is the trouble with bodybuilding and why there are so few true experts. Most are incapable of reading and comprehending the scientific literature. So that leaves experience. Not really good enough but that is what most of us have. I started training in 1958 so it is over 50 years lifting weights, etc.  

Some guys lose a lot of muscle when they stop training. I seem to keep a fair amount. My calves are almost as big as my arms and I seldom train them. Walking with heavy backpack is all I do. Well, I carry three cameras around with me hiking up and down and around and about. When I look at my family I can't claim I was a genetic natural. I didn't win the Mr Canada until 1970 so that is a long time training hard and trying a lot of different things. My strength increased well before my size did. It took me 6 months to bench press 200 pounds. When I look back no wonder I didn't grow much. Not enough food. I was training in a basement of a neighbour. With my gym equipment now I can make much better gains. Plus, I have a reasonably precise method to stimulate growth. The lads here don't believe me because they already are convinced they need drugs. What a shame that bodybuilding has become a chemistry lab.

You look pretty good in your photos, Jay.

[Mawse]

Dewlap appears to be filling in nicely.

[el numero uno]

My current workout routine is basically one muscle group per day with one complete cycle taking six days. For example: I work arms, biceps, triceps and forearms on Monday, Tuesday I work hams and calves, Wednesday I work back, Thursday shoulders, traps and abs, Friday chest and Saturday quads and calves. I limit my routine to what I can accomplish in about 45 minutes and never more than an hour. If I do cardio, that time is added time. Therefore longest workout would last 1 1/2 hours. I do a warm-up set and two to four work sets for each exercise. Usually, I do about three or four exercises for each muscle worked. Rest time between sets is never less then a minute and up to three minutes for larger muscles like quads. Every six to eight weeks I take a week off and just swim laps or do something different that requires some exercise. This routine allows a maximum recovery time which is more important the older one is. My body responds well to this.

I am fairly lean normally. I eat a normal healthy diet with an eye to protein intake. I am not a big junk food person, so that isn't an issue for me. My height is 5'11" and I weigh around 209 presently. I would guess that my body fat is about 12%. My arms and my neck both measure about 17" (no double chin). My waist is 34-35".

When I was a teenager, I was exceptionally skinny. Same approximate height as today, but weighed 126 lbs. This is what got me started weight training. I have trained most all of my adult life with very few breaks. I train to be fit and not to be a competitive bodybuilder or a muscle freak (don't believe I have the genetics for that). The most I ever weighed was 225 lbs. This was when I was twenty-nine. When I am not lifting, I eat less and generally drop some weight. My base weight most of my adult life has been 185-195 lbs. Over the last two years I've added some lean muscle mass arms a result of being on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy). This is due to my being treated by my doctor for low testosterone levels.

When I do take a block of time off from the gym and return to working out, I drop the poundages down, going light the first week back. It is all about how I feel. I am not looking to break any records or prove anything. I can generally gauge how I am doing by how sore I am. A little sore for a couple of days seems about right for me. More than that is a sure sign I am overdoing it.  Given my laid back nature, that isn't usually a problem. LOL.

The saying is that a picture is worth a thousand words....here is two thousand words worth. Both are recent. The headless one is about two months old and the other one is maybe a year ago.

You look very very good for your age, props. I definitely will hit TRT and some gh replacement if god allows me to stay here as I get older. But right now I'm only 23 so...  

[Primemuscle]

We all use terms we really know bugger all about. That is the trouble with bodybuilding and why there are so few true experts. Most are incapable of reading and comprehending the scientific literature. So that leaves experience. Not really good enough but that is what most of us have. I started training in 1958 so it is over 50 years lifting weights, etc.  

Some guys lose a lot of muscle when they stop training. I seem to keep a fair amount. My calves are almost as big as my arms and I seldom train them. Walking with heavy backpack is all I do. Well, I carry three cameras around with me hiking up and down and around and about. When I look at my family I can't claim I was a genetic natural. I didn't win the Mr Canada until 1970 so that is a long time training hard and trying a lot of different things. My strength increased well before my size did. It took me 6 months to bench press 200 pounds. When I look back no wonder I didn't grow much. Not enough food. I was training in a basement of a neighbour. With my gym equipment now I can make much better gains. Plus, I have a reasonably precise method to stimulate growth. The lads here don't believe me because they already are convinced they need drugs. What a shame that bodybuilding has become a chemistry lab.

You look pretty good in your photos, Jay.

I'll guess that you are referring my use of the term "muscle memory" as one of those which "we really know bugger all about." To me the muscle memory is best defined by the times I have taken away from working out and then got back to it. I have never had to start back a ground zero in terms of weight lifted or type of exercise performed. Also, while I lose some muscle if I don't work out. I have never again become that skinny 126 lb kid....not even close. No matter that I dial back the poundages when I start back, I am up to where I was in a couple of weeks or sooner. And trust me on this, I don't push myself really hard like some folks do.

As for understanding what is written or the supposed experts say about how to bodybuilder, each of us is different. I believe that what works for you, may or may not work for me. So, as best I can tell the real experts are people like you knowing how your body responds and me knowing how my body responds to stimuli. That makes each of us experts on a very limited subject, ourselves. Of course I got to this point probably like you did, from decades of trial and error and a lot of reading and testing out different theories.

Calves and forearms seem like a give-a-way as to how each of us is engineered. To me, these are like genetic markers for how much muscle you naturally would carry. It is rare that one would see an ectomorph with big calves and forearms....aside for the cartoon character Popeye. Likewise, not too many mesomorphs have skinny calves and forearms. Understandably, most of us fall somewhere outside these clear definitions. I have large bones for example. If I were a true ectomorph, I'd probably be a bit narrower with a smaller bone structure. Anyway, to me your large calves and forearms explain why you don't loose much muscle mass when you are not training. For years, I would immediately (at least in my head) start reverting to that skinny kid I once was. In truth, I have a fast metabolism and require a fair amount of fuel to keep me going....well a little less as of late.

Thanks for the compliment. Looking good is like the cherry on a hot fudge Sunday. What really counts is that most of the time I feel really good. I feel healthy and usually I am. Without a doubt this is the real reward from my commitment to exercise all these years. I compare myself to much younger fellows which my wife thinks is nuts. She'll say something like, "He's probably only twenty-two years old, you can't expect to look like him." I can expect anything I want....these are my goals, I'll set them as high as possible. Of course, I am also a realist. I don't really expect to look like a twenty-two year old in every respect.  I'll keep my hard earned character lines, bald head and white hair and I wear them like a badge of achievement. LOL!

[Vince B]

It isn't easy trying to convey ideas on the internet. Sure there is something like muscle memory working. It is part of what the scientists call the Repeated Bout Effect. In other words, effects can persist for a long time. However, I doubt any scientists have investigated this phenomenon called muscle memory.

While it is a truism that we all have to find what works for us, that can't be what hypertrophy is all about. Yes, there are differences but the formula for hypertrophy has to be a physical process that is applied to all individuals. We may not all grow the same amount or as rapidly, but hypertrophy is a response common to all individuals unless there is some deficiency. I don't mean invented concepts such as hard gainers. I don't buy that concept. If an hypertrophy expert put these hard gainers through workouts and also supervised their nutrition intake then those who failed to gain could call themselves that. The rest will join the multitudes who get a reasonable result from heavy training.

I wonder why more champions haven't retained their size or close to their size as they age? Oh, how I know about the lack of motivation. However, these guys knew how to get big and succeeded. So they should find it quite easy to regain most of that size even when they are over 60. Many are still huge while over 40 but we haven't seen much size on the older set.

Fat people insist that the body has various set points that keep them fat. The trouble is the set point can change and they find themselves getting fatter and fatter over the decades. Eventually, they stop gaining and reach a stalemate. Homeostasis. Bodybuilders will find a similar thing. Your weight will hover around a certain number and then you gain 10 pounds and it hovers around that mark. I am much heavier than my two brothers who are within a year of my age.

[Primemuscle]

It isn't easy trying to convey ideas on the internet. Sure there is something like muscle memory working. It is part of what the scientists call the Repeated Bout Effect. In other words, effects can persist for a long time. However, I doubt any scientists have investigated this phenomenon called muscle memory.

While it is a truism that we all have to find what works for us, that can't be what hypertrophy is all about. Yes, there are differences but the formula for hypertrophy has to be a physical process that is applied to all individuals. We may not all grow the same amount or as rapidly, but hypertrophy is a response common to all individuals unless there is some deficiency. I don't mean invented concepts such as hard gainers. I don't buy that concept. If an hypertrophy expert put these hard gainers through workouts and also supervised their nutrition intake then those who failed to gain could call themselves that. The rest will join the multitudes who get a reasonable result from heavy training.

I wonder why more champions haven't retained their size or close to their size as they age? Oh, how I know about the lack of motivation. However, these guys knew how to get big and succeeded. So they should find it quite easy to regain most of that size even when they are over 60. Many are still huge while over 40 but we haven't seen much size on the older set.

Fat people insist that the body has various set points that keep them fat. The trouble is the set point can change and they find themselves getting fatter and fatter over the decades. Eventually, they stop gaining and reach a stalemate. Homeostasis. Bodybuilders will find a similar thing. Your weight will hover around a certain number and then you gain 10 pounds and it hovers around that mark. I am much heavier than my two brothers who are within a year of my age.

I agree that conversations in Internet forums aren’t the ideal way to convey what we believe or mean to say. I have been misinterpreted and/or misread many times. Despite this we are communicating essentially the same ideas here about muscle memory. So I am going to say we are in some agreement.

Sure, there are some basic weight lifting principals as to what is effective in causing hypertrophy in most individuals. For example, one needs to put enough stress on the muscle to cause it to react. Weight resistance is one form of stress and repetitive movement is another. When one finds the right combination of these elements the effect is like magic and the muscle grows. In the routine I am presently doing, I am using a fair amount of resistance and a limited number of reps on work sets. This seems to be working pretty well for most exercises. My arms were barely 16” a year ago and now they are a solid 17”.  Like you, I’d like to see them grow to 18” at least. However, I always have symmetry in mind. In order for my arms to look good at that size, my deltoids will need to grow too. Unfortunately for me, I am susceptible to shoulder injuries which have thus far limited my ability to increase the weight on deltoid exercises as much as I would like to. Seeing my photos, you will notice I am not blessed with wide shoulders or large delts.

Speaking of symmetry, I find it unfortunate that symmetry in bodybuilding seems to have been lost to mere size these days. Contemporary bodybuilders often look more like comic book superheroes than like well built human beings. Even at the gym where I work out, you see fellows of all ages who clearly are abusing steroids to achieve a super muscular but not necessarily symmetrical look. I say abusing steroids because from personal experience, I believe sensible steroid use can overcome some deficiencies in some people which working out alone cannot. However, the unrealistic superhero look combined with a mindset that demands immediate results often leads to steroid and supplement abuse. I will never have huge calves or Popeye forearms, but they shall remain oil free, although there are moments when those ideas pass fleetingly by me. Bodybuilding can be a narcissistic endeavor.¬