Getting some bloodwork done tomorrow

[Tapeworm]

At nearly 35, I want to know what my androgen levels are.  Progress happens natural, but is very slow and I've decided that if I'm in the lower end of the range, I'll go to an hrt clinic and buy it (since the GP probably won't prescribe). 

My complaint to the doc was an inability to gain weight, and inability to preserve muscle in calorie debt (semi-true, but exagerated for the sake of free medical).  They'll be testing for:

Cholesterol, Trigs (?), and HDL
Full blood examination (?)
PSA
Thyroid Function Tests (some ?)
Urea & Electrolytes and Creatinine (U & E ?)
Ferritin, Serum (?)
Glucose (fasing overnight, blood taken around 8 am)
Iron Studies
Androgens TES, SHBG, FAI (get it, but still ?)

These are what's listed on the form, but I've put a ? next to those I don't get just so you all have some idea of how little I know. 

My diet is clean, 6 meals, currently 3000-3300 cals/day depending on exertion level at work and which split in the gym that day.  50c-20p-30f (incl EFAs) macros overall, usually taper carbs late in the day unless I have to work out in the late afternoon.  Training is ok too, I think.  I can post my split in detail for anyone who wants to see it.  It's usually 3 on, 1 off, including light cardio every other training day, train to failure non-cardio days in the 4-6 range, not to failure on cardio days in the 15-8 range.


Questions:

-What would you guys consider a normal or acceptable range for androgens?

-The HRT clinic I spoke with has "androgen gels" "testosterone patches" etc.  I dunno much about it, but you guys seem to specify test types (prop, enanthenate, etc) and lotsa other goodies.  What should I ask for, what should I avoid?

-They've got pills too which I'll probably refuse due to liver toxicity.  Agree?

-I'll be going pretty light by most standards.  Is there a dose above which PCT is needed, or is it required no matter how small doses are?  Should I insist on a prescription of anti-estrogens at the start so it's on hand if required, or is this unnecessary if under HRT clinic supervision?

-Sex drive isn't what it was at 18, but it's pretty good.  I'm not a candidate for life-long HRT at this point, so I'm viewing this as a cycle.  Any recommendations as to dosage for minimal sides? (I'll come back with test results later.)

-Can I minimize DHT and hair loss?  Been slowly losing it for years.  Not too advanced but I'm predisposed.

-Just anything else you would tell someone who knows jack shit but is doing his research.


Main concerns are cholesterol and psa (which are being tested for), gyno obviously, but most of all risk of infertility - I don't have kids yet but I plan to breed the hell outta a gal one day and don't wanna damage the jewels.

Ok, not really a "hardcore" question, I admit.  Essentially, I've got goals I'd like to meet which aren't outta-this-world (not competition, just vanity) but I can see I'm going to become an old(er) man before I get there so I've decided to do what has to be done while there's time.

Thanks for any info.

[trab]

A guy needs a jolt to put on new beef w/ juice. For all you know ya got a 850 total test level now and dont grow well.

*********************************************
 Free test is, I believe the more important factor than total.*
Make sure they pull a "Free Testo" read.***************
******************************

Free/ Total/ Psa/ lipids are what you want to see now. Howz your PB?

Get the bloods back and see...

If youve got decent sexual function, dont get into this at a HRT dose (200mg/ wk) w/ the idea of building
beef, cause ya gonna go in reverse!

If you want muscle dont screw w/ less then 5oomgs of TE wk IMO. Frankly a lot more than that.
I dont go as for as Dave P's ideas, but some deca and test and some orals the 1st weeks kicks butt.

Dont let them harvest your $z for a 200mg wk "cycle" to build beef. YOu be dissapointed.

[Arnold jr]

A guy needs a jolt to put on new beef w/ juice. For all you know ya got a 850 total test level now and dont grow well.



Dont let them harvest your $z for a 200mg wk "cycle" to build beef. YOu be dissapointed.

Agreed.

If you want muscle dont screw w/ less then 5oomgs of TE wk IMO. Frankly a lot more than that.
I dont go as for as Dave P's ideas, but some deca and test and some orals the 1st weeks kicks butt.

Elaborate please.

[Tapeworm]

A guy needs a jolt to put on new beef w/ juice. For all you know ya got a 850 total test level now and dont grow well.

*********************************************
 Free test is, I believe the more important factor than total.*
Make sure they pull a "Free Testo" read.***************
******************************

Free/ Total/ Psa/ lipids are what you want to see now. Howz your PB?

I think the FAI that they'll test for is the "Free Androgen Index" which should gimmie a comparison of total Test to SHBG and free Test. 

Noob ? - What's PB?

Get the bloods back and see...

If youve got decent sexual function, dont get into this at a HRT dose (200mg/ wk) w/ the idea of building
beef, cause ya gonna go in reverse!

If you want muscle dont screw w/ less then 5oomgs of TE wk IMO. Frankly a lot more than that.
I dont go as for as Dave P's ideas, but some deca and test and some orals the 1st weeks kicks butt.

Dont let them harvest your $z for a 200mg wk "cycle" to build beef. YOu be dissapointed.

No shit!!  Good to know.  Thanks man.

Going to get it drawn now, should have results in a couple days.

[trab]

I think the FAI that they'll test for is the "Free Androgen Index" which should gimmie a comparison of total Test to SHBG and free Test. 

Noob ? - What's PB?


No shit!!  Good to know.  Thanks man.

Going to get it drawn now, should have results in a couple days.

PB is Blood Pressure abbreviated and transposed whoops

[trab]

Agreed.
Elaborate please.

AJ, FIRST OFF I LIKE DAVE! 1st thing I do is read his column in MD each time. Guy has much knowledge.
Ive learned piles of good stuff from his writing.
But - a GRam of cyp ain't for everyone. esp 1st timers.  It agrees w/ him and most of the guys hes worked w/ but not everyone. Its on the heavy side for first time IMO.

 Then..
To my mind < 500 TE wK just ain't doing much. But I'd personally prefer to add another compound like deca, even for 1st timers, than jack the test up over 600. That is if one is inclined to push toward a gram total.

Using Sus is a whole different ballgame alltogether.

[Arnold jr]

AJ, FIRST OFF I LIKE DAVE! 1st thing I do is read his column in MD each time. Guy has much knowledge.
Ive learned piles of good stuff from his writing.
But - a GRam of cyp ain't for everyone. esp 1st timers.  It agrees w/ him and most of the guys hes worked w/ but not everyone. Its on the heavy side for first time IMO.

 Then..
To my mind < 500 TE wK just ain't doing much. But I'd personally prefer to add another compound like deca, even for 1st timers, than jack the test up over 600. That is if one is inclined to push toward a gram total.

Using Sus is a whole different ballgame alltogether.

He does not always advocate 1g of test for a first cycle...not at all...this seems to be a common misconception. IN many of his first cycle recommendations, they start off very light, tapering up just to make sure the body can handle it...even after the tapper goes up, I've rarely seen him say shoot 1g per wk.

That said, a lot of his cycles he recommends do include 1g of test per wk, but again, not newbies. Also, although I'm a huge supporter of his, I do not always agree with him 100% of the time...show me someone who does agree with anyone 100% of the time and I'll show you an ass kisser.

One thing I do question though is some of his first cycle recommendations that do not include test. I've seen him recommend some first cycles that do in fact leave test absent. Can this work? Sure. Can if be safe? Again, yes. But it is not always the best approach IMO and you do increase your risk factor of negative sides IMO.

[trab]

Yeah, ya got to read carefull what the person was asking him for. There's some pretty strange wish lists.
Did ya see the ESPN mag story on cyclists blood doping this month? Wow, now Them's some sick pups.

[Tapeworm]

Realized I haven't stated my own goals clearly.  I'm semi-comfortable with my current bf - going to lean up for summer in Aus, but I'm not concentrating on fat loss at the moment.  Clean gains is the objective for the next 8 to 10 weeks.

I know I'm breaking the rules by considering a cycle because I know I've still got plenty of room to grow as a natural, but like I said time is getting short at 35 so I'm doing some research.

I'm not hell bent on going ahead no matter what, and it's disappointing to hear that small doses won't be effective.  I assume that the bigger the dose, the bigger the risk.  Like I mentioned, risk of permanent infertility is my main concern.  What's the risk on a light cycle of 500mg TE/wk?

Pressure of blood is ok.  I can't remember the #s and they took back the form, but the doc said it was fine.  I'll get you the #s when I get the blood results back.

[DIVISION]

-What would you guys consider a normal or acceptable range for androgens?

Normal range for Total Test = 189-1111 ng/dL

Normal range for Free Test = 40-150 pg/mL

-The HRT clinic I spoke with has "androgen gels" "testosterone patches" etc.  I dunno much about it, but you guys seem to specify test types (prop, enanthenate, etc) and lotsa other goodies.  What should I ask for, what should I avoid?

Forget about the gels and patches, those are a waste of time, even if your insurance covers them.

Request Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate and try to get something above the typical 200MG eow HRT dosage.

Also request Halotestin tablets because they are available and will supplement the injections.

If your blood panel comes back with low Test levels and your GP won't prescribe what you want, bypass him and go to an endocrinologist.

That usually works and then you will have an actual diagnosis of Hypogonadism to support any future androgen prescriptions.

At that point, a GP has no say in anything.

-They've got pills too which I'll probably refuse due to liver toxicity.  Agree?

Halotestin is liver toxic like all 17AA, but you're not going to megadose on it, so unless you have a preexisting liver condition it's not going to be a factor.

--I'll be going pretty light by most standards.  Is there a dose above which PCT is needed, or is it required no matter how small doses are?  Should I insist on a prescription of anti-estrogens at the start so it's on hand if required, or is this unnecessary if under HRT clinic supervision?

I would recommend PCT regardless, because any dosage worth doing is going to require it by default.

Ask for Arimidex because it's an aromatase inhibitor, but at the very least get Nolvadex.

-Sex drive isn't what it was at 18, but it's pretty good.  I'm not a candidate for life-long HRT at this point, so I'm viewing this as a cycle.  Any recommendations as to dosage for minimal sides? (I'll come back with test results later.)

If you can get at least 500MG ew, I'll be shocked, but at that dosage, the sides will be minimal if anything.

-Can I minimize DHT and hair loss?  Been slowly losing it for years.  Not too advanced but I'm predisposed.

Finasteride
Dutasteride

Your GP can prescribe these.

-Just anything else you would tell someone who knows jack shit but is doing his research.

Main concerns are cholesterol and psa (which are being tested for), gyno obviously, but most of all risk of infertility - I don't have kids yet but I plan to breed the hell outta a gal one day and don't wanna damage the jewels.

Ok, not really a "hardcore" question, I admit.  Essentially, I've got goals I'd like to meet which aren't outta-this-world (not competition, just vanity) but I can see I'm going to become an old(er) man before I get there so I've decided to do what has to be done while there's time.

At the dosage you will be doing, your HDL/LDL won't be affected significantly.

Unless you already have prostate enlargement, it shouldn't be an issue on HRT.

If you want a basic overview of AAS, I recommend Llewellyn's book. 

http://www.molecularnutrition.net/products_book.html

Above all else, just remember that AAS help you train harder and recover quicker, but they are simply supplements to the hard work you put forth in the gym.

Nothing more, Nothing less.   



DIV

[Tapeworm]

Thanks for the response Div.  Some good answers there. 

Normal range for Total Test = 189-1111 ng/dL

Normal range for Free Test = 40-150 pg/mL

Cool, thanks.  I predict I'll be in the lower half.  We'll see.

Also request Halotestin tablets because they are available and will supplement the injections.

What dose in milligrams do you recommend for the Halo in conjunction with 500mg test cyp or test E?

If your blood panel comes back with low Test levels and your GP won't prescribe what you want, bypass him and go to an endocrinologist.

Yip.  Plan on going to see one after the results come back.  Under Aus Medicare, it's hard to get in without a GP's referral.  If the endo is too conservative to prescribe, then it'll be the HRT clinic (which is more expensive).

If you want a basic overview of AAS, I recommend Llewellyn's book. 

http://www.molecularnutrition.net/products_book.html

Thanks.  I'm gathering all the info I can.

Above all else, just remember that AAS help you train harder and recover quicker, but they are simply supplements to the hard work you put forth in the gym.

Nothing more, Nothing less.   

On the MGs we're talking about here, would it be worth changing up my routine (adding more volume)?  Also, will I be able to make use of more than 160g of protein/ day?  Or is dosage too small to worry about changing things up?


Recommend anything for the nuts like HCG or something or won't 500mg/week shut down endogenous production?

Also, what do you guys think for cycle length on the strengths discussed here?

[Luv2Hurt]

Thanks for the response Div.  Some good answers there. 

Agree!

[DIVISION]

What dose in milligrams do you recommend for the Halo in conjunction with 500mg test cyp or test E?

20-40MG daily or you can use it just for workout days.

Depends on what you want out of it.

On the MGs we're talking about here, would it be worth changing up my routine (adding more volume)?  Also, will I be able to make use of more than 160g of protein/ day?  Or is dosage too small to worry about changing things up?

Depends on the prescription dosage.

If you get the standard HRT dosage, I wouldn't change anything drastically.

Increase your intensity and decrease your rest time in the gym.

Recommend anything for the nuts like HCG or something or won't 500mg/week shut down endogenous production?

If you are going to be on HRT permanently, why are you worried about HCG?

You shouldn't have an issue with libido because you are taking in exogenous testosterone.



DIV

[Tapeworm]

Thanks Div.

I might have been unclear, but I'm not going to go on HRT permanently.  Sex drive is solid, so are gains...just very slow.  I was considering sourcing from an HRT clinic tho because

- It'd be legal
- It wouldn't be bunk/diluted gear (sustanon probably, I just found out from a pharmacist.  Pretty big guy..hmmm.)
- I'd be under professional supervision and have access to regular testing
- I suspect they'll play ball.  Although I don't know for sure, the guy on the phone sounded "accomodating."
- I thought I'd only need a little.  Turns out everyone says that's not true tho - either do a proper cycle (>500 mg plus other stuff) or don't cycle at all.

So I've dumped the idea of < 200mg/wk, and I'm doing my research on heavier cycles.  Fuck there's a lotta info to know.

[darksol]

Just wondering have you tried any natural test boosters like novedex XT?  I tried it and it worked pretty well for me.  Unless you are going for the juiced feeling, then definately juice.  But if you want something that is natural, its worth a shot.  It will take 1-2 weeks before you really notice it.  Take 3-4 tabs before bed.  When I was taking it, my forearms looked juiced.  and I put on some decent weight, plus lifts went up.  Good stuff.