Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Mixed Martial Arts (MMA/UFC) => Topic started by: Dreadlifter on February 02, 2012, 01:22:18 PM
-
http://www.espn.co.uk/ufc/sport/story/133854.html
According to this Jones has requested a heavyweight fight but Dana says no.
"Jon Jones is so confident that he will remain light-heavyweight champion by the end of this year that he has requested a fight at heavyweight in 2012.
Jones is a dominant force on the 205lb scene, already destroying Mauricio Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson and Lyoto Machida. Next up is Rashad Evans in April, another man he is a huge favourite to overcome.
That would arguably only leave Dan Henderson as Jones' one remaining outstanding test. After that he would potentially be looking at rematches with the likes of Machida, who is convinced he could overcome the champion at the second attempt.
However, Jones has previously confessed he wants to fight at least three times this year, and wins over Evans and Henderson would leave him needing one more challenge. The youngster eyed a heavyweight splash, but the UFC said no.
"I figured beating Henderson and Rashad, there would be a period of trying to figure out who I would fight next, and during that period, at the end of 2012, I requested to fight a top 10 heavyweight just for the fans," Jones told The MMA Hour.
"But Dana and Lorenzo [Fertitta] did not think that was the best thing for me to do right now, they wanted me to continue in the light-heavyweight division."
-
he would lose
-
I don't think Jon Jones fully understands the kind of strength, power and viciousness that heavyweights have.
He thinks that, because he can beat 5'11 guys with average frames, that he can beat guys over 6'3 with huge frames.
He has no idea what it is like to have a 6'4 man with elephant-sized bones charging at him wanting to separate his head from his body.
Someone like JDS would laugh at Jones' petty spinning elbows, move right through them and knock his head 50 feet onto the audience.
There is a reason why SWAT forces throughout the World use higher caliber weapons to take out pepetrators over 6'3 with big bones. It is the same reason why there are weight classes in all combat sports - because frame size, strengh and power matter a lot in combat.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
I don't think Jon Jones fully understands the kind of strength, power and viciousness that heavyweights have.
He thinks that, because he can beat 5'11 guys with average frames, that he can beat guys over 6'3 with huge frames.
He has no idea what it is like to have a 6'4 man with elephant-sized bones charging at him wanting to separate his head from his body.
Someone like JDS would laugh at Jones' petty spinning elbows, move right through them and knock his head 50 feet onto the audience.
There is a reason why SWAT forces throughout the World use higher caliber weapons to take out pepetrators over 6'3 with big bones. It is the same reason why there are weight classes in all combat sports - because frame size, strengh and power matter a lot in combat.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Recently I viewed a picture of Jones next to Dos Santos and I have to tell ya, there wasn't much difference.
-
Recently I viewed a picture of Jones next to Dos Santos and I have to tell ya, there wasn't much difference.
Not in height. But in width and frame, yeah, there is...huge. JDS's wrists are as thick as Jones' ankles.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
You might wanna change the thread title to "UFC refuses Jones a HW fight"
For once I agree with SMM. I don't think Jones realizes the power and sheer brute size of the heavies. I think he'd likely get mauled by the top 5. However, could he beat a Cro cop or another lower calibre hw? Perhaps.
-
Not in height. But in width and frame, yeah, there is...huge. JDS's wrists are as thick as Jones' ankles.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
JDS is a small heavyweight compared to the overeams anyway. I understand what your saying and I agree. We can both probably agree that Jones is a large light heavyweight.
-
You might wanna change the thread title to "UFC refuses Jones a HW fight"
For once I agree with SMM. I don't think Jones realizes the power and sheer brute size of the heavies. I think he'd likely get mauled by the top 5. However, could he beat a Cro cop or another lower calibre hw? Perhaps.
I am highly emotional right now. I knew this day would come. :'(
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
Jones has no idea what it's like to have a 6'4 giant with wrists as thick as the average man's ankles charging at you wanting to destroy you. He's in for a brutal wakeup.
Can Jones beat a HW? He is by far the most innately talented fighter in the UFC, so he might. But he could get seriously injured.
The HWs are so far ahead all the other weight classes in strength, power and ability to take damage(the thicker your bones, the more impact your body can handle) that they are in a class of their own.
The difference between all weight classes is 15 lbs, but the HWs can be up to 265 lbs or 60 lbs heavier than the LHWs. The difference in weight between a HW and a LHW can be the same as that between a LHW and a LW!
The kind of punch that merely phases a HW could give a concussion to a LHW. HW have very thick skulls and huge heads which can take these blows, but LHWs can't.
Jones wouldn't stand a snow ball's chance in hell against someone like Carwin or Overeem. Not only are these guys 6'5, but they have to diet to be 265 lbs. Even at 290 lbs, they still have little bodyfat. Pound-for-pound, Jones is better, but those guys have a lot more pounds than he has.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
I can see Jones filling out to a slender 240 one day and be ready to fight, but not in the next 12 - 18 months unless he takes a break. He knows his limits and im sure his ego is allowing him to think of world domination, but the step up will not be as smooth for him as he believes it to be. He wants a top 10 guy, OK how about Frank? He's a gate keeper and so far away from winning the title again its ridiculous, but i believe his striking would be good enough to atleast rock Jones and allow a takedown. From there its a broken arm or leg. Chieck Kongo would struggle based on his complete lack of ground game but in a striking match he would overcome Jones over 2 - 3 rounds. Shane Carwin? He would crush Jones' jaw and send him away in an ambulance and he's as far off the title as Frank.
Mitrione & Nelson would present good opportunities for him to get a HW win, however Nelson is always dangerous and can give anyone a run for their money. Jones is far and away the most dominant LHW i have ever seen from any era, his skill set is frightening and he has the potential to coast through his career at 205 without ever looking in trouble. If he wants to prove himself at 220+ then he needs to work his way up to it slowly and not just try to jump in the deep end.
The logical step for me is not the ridiculous GSP vs Silva fight everyone wants to see as Silva is far too big for him, but Silva vs Jones would be fantastic. I once thought Jones would crush Silva but i am no longer a fan of his ego, i would like to see someone - anyone - deliver an ass kicking of epic proportions to him in 2012.
-
Recently I viewed a picture of Jones next to Dos Santos and I have to tell ya, there wasn't much difference.
Arlovski is 6'4"
-
It goes like this, the light heavy weights are basically fighting for a paycheck at this point since their division is pretty much in limbo with Bones as the champ. Can't believe people even say Jones should stay at LHW and continue "clearing out the division" because clearly he WILL do just that, with very little effort. Hendo, Rashad sadly dont even stand a punchers chance against the 6' 5" monster with the longest reach in the UFC (yes longer than tallest heavyweights)
I dont wanna pay $55 to see him fight at LHW, but I'd pay that to see him fight the likes of Junior and Overeem. Guys who actually stand a chance against him.
-
Arlovski is 6'4"
This is the kind of thing that really rubs me the wrong way and should be considered by fans and officials to be way more offensive than steroid use. Silva is in the same league as Jones. Both Jones and Silva have earned their unbeatable reputation by dominating men a lot smaller than themselves. For some reason sports journalists and fans turn a blind eye and continue to hype these guys as unbeatable champions.
-
This is the kind of thing that really rubs me the wrong way and should be considered by fans and officials to be way more offensive than steroid use. Silva is in the same league as Jones. Both Jones and Silva have earned their unbeatable reputation by dominating men a lot smaller than themselves. For some reason sports journalists and fans turn a blind eye and continue to hype these guys as unbeatable champions.
qft
They completely ignore the size factor, almost as if it makes no difference at all. Complete ignorance, basically just people who don't know anything about the sport they are watching. And Zuffa deliberately throws around bs height stats when they want a certain fighter to be perceived a certain way by the easily manipulated consumer fans, no different from WWE.
-
Honestly then guys, what should be done about height/reach ? It would be so difficult to group fighters based upon these two traits. You'd have plenty more divisions.
I honestly think height/reach are just a part of a fighters advantages. Just like a GSP is a great wrestler, his striking isn't tops. Obviously his wrestling is his advantage. And vice versa for someone like say, Liddell.
Liddell carried on for years with awesome striking. No one was saying that he should've dropped weight and fought a more fast striker etc.
Jones is indeed an oddity and i would like to see him fight a lower-calibre HW, but trying to force him up to HW wouldn't be fair.
-
Honestly then guys, what should be done about height/reach ? It would be so difficult to group fighters based upon these two traits. You'd have plenty more divisions.
I honestly think height/reach are just a part of a fighters advantages. Just like a GSP is a great wrestler, his striking isn't tops. Obviously his wrestling is his advantage. And vice versa for someone like say, Liddell.
Liddell carried on for years with awesome striking. No one was saying that he should've dropped weight and fought a more fast striker etc.
Jones is indeed an oddity and i would like to see him fight a lower-calibre HW, but trying to force him up to HW wouldn't be fair.
GSP's wrestling is an advantage he had to work for. It involves volition. Conversely, Jones' reach is a purely morphological characteristic that allows him to destroy opponents with impunity. MMA should be about skills that are earned through hard work and not overwehlming your opponents with sheer size or reach.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
GSP's wrestling is an advantage he had to work for. It involves volition. Conversely, Jones' reach is a purely morphological characteristic that allows him to destroy opponents with impunity. MMA should be about skills that are earned through hard work and not overwehlming your opponents with sheer size or reach.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Exactly. Im positive Jones wouldn't be nearly as dominant if he were 5 11 with a 74" reach. Im not saying hes not a skilled fighter though, he seems very technical and cerebral, smart fighter. But I wonder how those traits would change if he wasn't at such a massive advantage. Until he fights someone closer to his own size I can't tell how good he really is, and dont buy into thetop p4p hype he gets.
-
So what do you two propose then? Trying to categorize fighters based upon reach?
-
Exactly. Im positive Jones wouldn't be nearly as dominant if he were 5 11 with a 74" reach. Im not saying hes not a skilled fighter though, he seems very technical and cerebral, smart fighter. But I wonder how those traits would change if he wasn't at such a massive advantage. Until he fights someone closer to his own size I can't tell how good he really is, and dont buy into thetop p4p hype he gets.
I would love to see someone gather statistic on this sort of thing. What is the average height, weight or reach difference (if there is one) between the champion of a weight division and their closes competition? It would be interesting to see whether there is some kind of significant physical variation that sets a champion apart from his competition rather than it purely being a matter superior skill set. Size isn't everything but it can be a very important factor. Put two guys in the ring of equal skill but one is bigger and stronger,and I guarantee the the bigger and stronger fighter will win almost every time. There are exceptions but as a general rule this holds true.
For an example, one needs only to look at the heavyweight division in boxing. The Klitschko brothers are vastly larger in size to the majority of their competition and they are pretty dominate. They also posses great skill or at the very least employ a style that takes advantage of their greater size and reach.
-
So what do you two propose then? Trying to categorize fighters based upon reach?
One way to curtail fighters from gaining twenty or more pounds before a fight is to weight them the day of the fight, more than once. If you don't weight 205 or close to it by the time of the fight, you have no business fighting at 205 There is no reason a man weighing 230 pounds at fight time should be stepping into the ring fighting at 205
-
Lets start with the focal point of the topic: Bones Jones. His official stats are 193cm for height & 215cm for reach. Listed below are the top contenders in the division hes already smashed;
Rampage
Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 185cm which equates to only 86% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 16% advantage (not 14 for those jumping the gun).
Machida
Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 188cm which equates to only 87% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 14% advantage.
Shogun
Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 193cm which not only is the longest reach of the selected fighters but still equates to only 90% of Bones' reach, giving Bones an 11% advantage.
Then we have the coming defence against Rashad:
Height = 180cm which equates to 93% of Bones' height.
Reach = 191cm which equates to only 89% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 12% advantage.
His lack of height is made up for in reach but even he does not compare well statistically speaking. Bones simply doesnt have anyone that can match anything he has and could quite easily beat guys up without ever having a punch landed on him due to his outstanding reach. He has alot of room for manoeuvre in the exchanges without putting himself in danger.
-
Lets start with the focal point of the topic: Bones Jones. His official stats are 193cm for height & 215cm for reach. Listed below are the top contenders in the division hes already smashed;
Rampage
Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 185cm which equates to only 86% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 16% advantage (not 14 for those jumping the gun).
Machida
Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 188cm which equates to only 87% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 14% advantage.
Shogun
Height = 185cm which equates to 96% of Bones' height.
Reach = 193cm which not only is the longest reach of the selected fighters but still equates to only 90% of Bones' reach, giving Bones an 11% advantage.
Then we have the coming defence against Rashad:
Height = 180cm which equates to 93% of Bones' height.
Reach = 191cm which equates to only 89% of Bones' reach and actually gives Bones a 12% advantage.
His lack of height is made up for in reach but even he does not compare well statistically speaking. Bones simply doesnt have anyone that can match anything he has and could quite easily beat guys up without ever having a punch landed on him due to his outstanding reach. He has alot of room for manoeuvre in the exchanges without putting himself in danger.
Absolutely phenomenal post. I would be curious to see the same use of statistics applied to the other weight classes. The interesting part is that the numbers seem to be fairly consistent which kind of proves the point that he is across the board larger than his closest competition.
-
Absolutely phenomenal post. I would be curious to see the same use of statistics applied to the other weight classes. The interesting part is that the numbers seem to be fairly consistent which kind of proves the point that he is across the board larger than his closest competition.
The numbers proving what was speculated. very interesting. Shoguns advantageous reach must of helped him in some of his previous striking wars.
-
Nice posts, but really, you didn't need to compare everything. Everyone knows Jones has these advantages.
The question still remains, what can be done to level the playing field? Make Jones gain all kinds of size (which would reduce his speeds etc) just to fight at HW?
Perhaps Brock and Carwin shouldve fought at SHW due to their huge glove sizes?
-
Nice posts, but really, you didn't need to compare everything. Everyone knows Jones has these advantages.
The question still remains, what can be done to level the playing field? Make Jones gain all kinds of size (which would reduce his speeds etc) just to fight at HW?
Perhaps Brock and Carwin shouldve fought at SHW due to their huge glove sizes?
Sure, but it is definitely fascinating and enlightening to see the numbers. Maybe there isn't anything you can do to rectify the size disparity but it does make it clearer that a fighter like Jones isn't winning based on skill along, and that should put the whole situation into perspective.
-
i train with jones lol and u people got no idea what this guy does to true heavyweights in sparring, i mean his 24 and walks around at 240ish, he wont be a lightheavy for long
-
We also have to factor in skill set, power, cardio levels etc otherwise, by this criteria alone, Kendall Grove wouldnt even lose a round never mind a fight. Bones is the leader of a new generation of fighter, hes a genetic anomaly for sure yet sooner or later we will see another come along - but will he realise his potential in the same way? Bones' career appears too easy for him because hes literally toying with the absolute best in the world like theyre a warm up and everyone demands an excuse. Is it as simple as he's just plain better?!
-
Nice posts, but really, you didn't need to compare everything. Everyone knows Jones has these advantages.
The question still remains, what can be done to level the playing field? Make Jones gain all kinds of size (which would reduce his speeds etc) just to fight at HW?
Perhaps Brock and Carwin shouldve fought at SHW due to their huge glove sizes?
Gain 'all kinds' of size? Hes already around the same size range as Fedor or Cigano with even more reach, he just cuts down to 205 is all. The only way we'll tell how good he is if he fights guys his own size, its pretty simple really. Hopefully they let him, or else everyone at 205 will be pretty well just fighting for a paycheck until he vacates the belt.
-
i train with jones lol and u people got no idea what this guy does to true heavyweights in sparring, i mean his 24 and walks around at 240ish, he wont be a lightheavy for long
Prove you train with Jones.
-
We also have to factor in skill set, power, cardio levels etc otherwise, by this criteria alone, Kendall Grove wouldnt even lose a round never mind a fight. Bones is the leader of a new generation of fighter, hes a genetic anomaly for sure yet sooner or later we will see another come along - but will he realise his potential in the same way? Bones' career appears too easy for him because hes literally toying with the absolute best in the world like theyre a warm up and everyone demands an excuse. Is it as simple as he's just plain better?!
Jones is 6 inches taller than his competitors, that means he is physically better than his opponents. In terms of skill we dont know. Put him up against Junior who doesnt cut any weight and would still be at a physical disadvantage to Bones.
-
We also have to factor in skill set, power, cardio levels etc otherwise, by this criteria alone, Kendall Grove wouldnt even lose a round never mind a fight. Bones is the leader of a new generation of fighter, hes a genetic anomaly for sure yet sooner or later we will see another come along - but will he realise his potential in the same way? Bones' career appears too easy for him because hes literally toying with the absolute best in the world like theyre a warm up and everyone demands an excuse. Is it as simple as he's just plain better?!
I would give all props in the World to Jones if he were dominating other guys who are 6'3+ with an 80"+ reach.
Compare this to Fedor, who used to toy with his opponents and dominate them just like Jones does, except he did it with a height, weight and reach disadvantage, whilst Jones does it with a weight and reach advantage. But maybe it's not fair to bring up Fedor, because Fedor in his prime was ridiculously great and we might never see anything like him ever again.
Jones is definitely a top 3 LHW in terms of skills, but he might or might not be #1 because his reach is such a huge advantage. Would he still be a top LHW with a 77" reach? Most likely. Would he dominate and destroy guys like Shogun, Rampage and Machida with ease? No! He destroys top LHWs because he is a HW with a significant muscle and reach advantage over them.
If Jones moved to the HW division and did to JDS what he did to Shogun, not only would I regard him as the greatest HW in the World, but also the greatest P4P fighter as well since he demolished with ease a top fighter who actually has the physical tools, such as height and power, to give him a fight unlike the LHWs who stand no chance against him. But we all know how a JDS vs Jon Jones fight would likely end, which proves my point that he is not that great since he still enjoys a reach advantage over JDS although not huge.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
I would give all props in the World to Jones if he were dominating other guys who are 6'3+ with an 80"+ reach.
Compare this to Fedor, who used to toy with his opponents and dominate them just like Jones does, except he did it with a height, weight and reach disadvantage, whilst Jones does it with a weight and reach advantage. But maybe it's not fair to bring up Fedor, because Fedor in his prime was ridiculously great and we might never see anything like him ever again.
Jones is definitely a top 3 LHW in terms of skills, but he might or might not be #1 because his reach is such a huge advantage. Would he still be a top LHW with a 77" reach? Most likely. Would he dominate and destroy guys like Shogun, Rampage and Machida with ease? No! He destroys top LHWs because he is a HW with a significant muscle and reach advantage over them.
If Jones moved to the HW division and did to JDS what he did to Shogun, not only would I regard him as the greatest HW in the World, but also the greatest P4P fighter as well since he demolished with ease a top fighter who actually has the physical tools, such as height and power, to give him a fight unlike the LHWs who stand no chance against him. But we all know how a JDS vs Jon Jones fight would likely end, which proves my point that he is not that great since he still enjoys a reach advantage over JDS although not huge.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Great post and nothing but the truth. I just wanna see Jones in a fair fight so we can finally see how good he is, instead of picking on the puny 205ers.
-
all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...
the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..
-
all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...
the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..
Totally agree. Everyone has advantages and disadvantages. Some are great at JJ and some wrestling. Some are excellent strikers while other's aren't.
It's like sour grapes. Jones is cleaning out the division and people, especially anti UFC boy SMM can't stand it.
-
all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...
the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..
you guys are so stupid...
Weight and reach...they are both physical advantages.
So why does one matter and the other doesen't?
Yes, I know that this is the only thing that matters to the athletic comissions.
My point, that you morons don't seem to understand no matter how many times I explain this to you, is that one is not more of an advantage than the other, so a fighter with an 84" reach beating on guys with a 76" reach makes the "win" as irrelevant as a HW beating a LHW. Who gives a shit?
For us to see how great Jones is in terms of skills he needs to fight guys with a reach closer to his.
A fight where you can hit your opponent and he can't hit back is unfair.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
Totally agree. Everyone has advantages and disadvantages. Some are great at JJ and some wrestling. Some are excellent strikers while other's aren't.
It's like sour grapes. Jones is cleaning out the division and people, especially anti UFC boy SMM can't stand it.
CockTrain, you are the biggest UFC fan-boy in this board by far. I bet you would love to deep throat Dana White's dick as Jon Jones plowed your asshole with his. You have Jones' nuts up your nose so much I am embarassed for you.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
And what i keep coming back to is Kendall Grove - he has the biggest reach and is the tallest fighter at 185 and is a virtual nobody. Same can be said of Stefan Struve at HW & Terry Etim at LW so once you realise hes not the only freak in a weight class you HAVE to factor in his physical ability.
-
And what i keep coming back to is Kendall Grove - he has the biggest reach and is the tallest fighter at 185 and is a virtual nobody. Same can be said of Stefan Struve at HW & Terry Etim at LW so once you realise hes not the only freak in a weight class you HAVE to factor in his physical ability.
Reach is just a physical advantage, like muscle weight. I never said that reach garantees a win. If you guys didn't have such shitty reading comprehension, you would know that.
I said that Jones is a very good fighter which, when combined with his reach advantage, makes him invincible. It is the combination of both things that makes him invincible.
For instance, I am over 6'4 and currently weight close to 260 lbs, but an MMA middleweight would probably beat me in a fight because he can fight much, much better than me. Kendall Grove is a bad fighter, so he gets beat by guys with less reach who are a lot better than him at fighting.
It is an issue of degree. You guys are thinking in terms of absolutes: It's "either" "or" to you guys. It doesen't work that way. Reach helps a lot, and when you are a very talented fighter like Jones, it is an advantage that makes you invincible.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
Reach is just a physical advantage, like muscle weight. I never said that reach garantees a win
yes you did !
-
Reach is just a physical advantage, like muscle weight. I never said that reach garantees a win. If you guys didn't have such shitty reading comprehension, you would know that.
I said that Jones is a very good fighter which, when combined with his reach advantage, makes him invincible. It is the combination of both things that makes him invincible.
For instance, I am over 6'4 and currently weight close to 260 lbs, but an MMA middleweight would probably beat me in a fight because he can fight much, much better than me. Kendall Grove is a bad fighter, so he gets beat by guys with less reach who are a lot better than him at fighting.
It is an issue of degree. You guys are thinking in terms of absolutes: It's "either" "or" to you guys. It doesen't work that way. Reach helps a lot, and when you are a very talented fighter like Jones, it is an advantage that makes you invincible.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Just when i was beginning to think we could have civil discussions in depth ::)
My reading comprehension is fine, your statements are contradictory and senseless at times because you are blinded by the fact you hate Jon Jones. You endlessly rant about Jones being too big for his class, that he is taller and has a longer reach, and as a result he has an unfair advantage over his opponents. Well i have listed other fighters that have the exact same qualities in their respective weight classes and ARE good fighters, but it holds no advantage for them in the cage.
You have again been proven wrong, can not accept it and spit the dummy like a spoilt girl wanting another cookie from the jar even though you know you just ate the last one. You refuse to believe Jon Jones has elite fighting skills because he hasnt fought a 250lb man thats 6ft 5, yet it is evident from his performances that he has incredible wrestling and excellent, yet somewhat unorthodox striking. There simply isnt a man alive at 205 that can compete with him right now, and as he is able to comfortably make the weight the issue is dead.
Accept your loss and move on, nobody wants to see you freak out again and relapse into your Fedor rants.
-
Just when i was beginning to think we could have civil discussions in depth
My reading comprehension is fine, your statements are contradictory and senseless at times because you are blinded by the fact you hate Jon Jones. You endlessly rant about Jones being too big for his class, that he is taller and has a longer reach, and as a result he has an unfair advantage over his opponents. Well i have listed other fighters that have the exact same qualities in their respective weight classes and ARE good fighters, but it holds no advantage for them in the cage.
You have again been proven wrong, can not accept it and spit the dummy like a spoilt girl wanting another cookie from the jar even though you know you just ate the last one. You refuse to believe Jon Jones has elite fighting skills because he hasnt fought a 250lb man thats 6ft 5, yet it is evident from his performances that he has incredible wrestling and excellent, yet somewhat unorthodox striking. There simply isnt a man alive at 205 that can compete with him right now, and as he is able to comfortably make the weight the issue is dead.
Accept your loss and move on, nobody wants to see you freak out again and relapse into your Fedor rants.
I don't hate Jon Jones. And how have I been proven wrong? Let's see.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
all's fair if he can make 205 on those given fridays...
the arguement that it's not fair because of his Height advantage is beyond absurd..
So if he made 185 and obliterated the division even easier you'd have no problem with that either? If he could make the weight its within the rules and completely fair lol
-
So if he made 185 and obliterated the division even easier you'd have no problem with that either? If he could make the weight its within the rules and completely fair lol
???
interesting !
-
CockTrain, you are the biggest UFC fan-boy in this board by far. I bet you would love to deep throat Dana White's dick as Jon Jones plowed your asshole with his. You have Jones' nuts up your nose so much I am embarassed for you.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Listen suckmensmuscles, I'm a fan of watching brutality. Period. Whether UFC, old pride, strikeforce, etc. The plain reality is that UFC is tops right now. There isn't much else on. I really don't know how this qualifies me as a "fan boy".
The simple truth is you HATE anything UFC. You always back old pride fighters and root against UFC born fighters. It's really very obvious. This is why you can't stand Jones beating up on your pride boys. Everytime an old pride vet loses to a UFC fighter, you cry like a little bitch, or make up ridiculous excuses as to why they lost, i.e. Jones and his reach.
-
I don't hate Jon Jones. And how have I been proven wrong? Let's see.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Biggest lie since the Turks denying the holocaust of the Armenians.
-
So if he made 185 and obliterated the division even easier you'd have no problem with that either? If he could make the weight its within the rules and completely fair lol
I personally dont have problems with a fighter making a certain weight although i'd like to see it on the day of the fight. Rumble Johnson was a clear 205'er fighting at 170, he may have settled better at 185 but overall the guy is just too big to diet down to these ridiculous weights and it eventually cost him losses and his UFC career. It may be the same with Jones if he tries to go any lower.
I dont think theres any chance of Jones making 185 but if he could, then wheres the problem? Everyone focuses too much on the size aspect and not the fighting aspect, im something of an optimist and like to believe the bigger man doesnt always win ;D
-
I personally dont have problems with a fighter making a certain weight although i'd like to see it on the day of the fight. Rumble Johnson was a clear 205'er fighting at 170, he may have settled better at 185 but overall the guy is just too big to diet down to these ridiculous weights and it eventually cost him losses and his UFC career. It may be the same with Jones if he tries to go any lower.
I dont think theres any chance of Jones making 185 but if he could, then wheres the problem? Everyone focuses too much on the size aspect and not the fighting aspect, im something of an optimist and like to believe the bigger man doesnt always win ;D
x2
Remember Royce Gracie etc.? Bigger doesn't always mean better. The smaller guy needs a gameplan to plan for the longer reach etc.
-
Listen suckmensmuscles, I'm a fan of watching brutality. Period. Whether UFC, old pride, strikeforce, etc. The plain reality is that UFC is tops right now. There isn't much else on. I really don't know how this qualifies me as a "fan boy".
The simple truth is you HATE anything UFC. You always back old pride fighters and root against UFC born fighters. It's really very obvious. This is why you can't stand Jones beating up on your pride boys. Everytime an old pride vet loses to a UFC fighter, you cry like a little bitch, or make up ridiculous excuses as to why they lost, i.e. Jones and his reach.
CockTrain, you stupid queer, if I hated the UFC I wouldn't have watched each and every one of it's editions since the first one in 1993 when Royce shocked the World and won it all. Trust me: I have been watching the UFC for much longer than you, and I can discuss in detail fights that happened in the UFC 15 year ago or more when you were still a baby whining just like you do now. The reason why I say PRIDE was better is because it was. I hate ad hominem arguments, but in this case which is "better" is subjective, so ad hominem applies, and the bottom line is that most people who watched both regard PRIDE the better promotion.
And I think Jon Jones is phenomenal. His speed, coordination and wrestling skills are great. The speed and precision with which he moves his limbs while striking is extremely impressive. He is a very gifted athlete. And I have already said that even if he were 5'11 or so with a 76" reach that he would still be a top 3 LHW because of his athleticism and wrestling.
My point, which you f.aggots don't seem to get, is that his advantage in reach and muscle is such that they represent a great advantage against LHWs. It is the fact that he is a top fighter in terms of talent who also is very significantly superior physically to his opponents that allows him to cimpletely demolish top LHWs without even breaking a sweat. I just watched the Jones vs Shogun fight again and it was like a grown man beating up a child. And I mean this literally. Not only did Jones destroy Shogun without any effort, but Jones was so superior to Shogun in height and muscularity that Shogun looked like a child next to him.
No one owns Shogun like that. Even the most talented fighter ever would not be able to destroy Shogun without any effort considering that Shogun is one of the top 3 LHWs ever and had 10 X more experience than Jones when they fought. Even if Jones is the most talented fighter ever, he should at least have struggled to beat him given that Shogun is one of the greatest ever and had 12 years of professional MMA experience compared to Jones who was neophyte. I don't care how gifted you are, a noob fighter is not going to toy with Shogun like that on only talent. Rampage and Machida are also top LHWs with years(plural) of fighting experience and they had nothing for Jones.
Jones has huge physical advantages over the other LHWs. His reach is so ridiculous that even in the HW ranks there is nobody with limbs as long as him! Not even Stefan Struve or Overeem, both over 6'5!!! How is your average LHW at around 6' or so going to compete with that? What about strength? Have you seen how muscular Jones is? He could step onstage at a bodybuilding contest and do well. Not only is he significantly heavier than only 205 lbs on fight day, but far more of his weight is muscle compared to the other LHWs. Compare his musculature's to that of Shogun or Machida. No contest.
Jones has pretty big physical advantages in reach and strength compared to the other LHWs. Cry all you want, but facts are facts. If he moves up to HW and does to JDS what he did to Shogun, then I will proclaim Jones as not only the greatest HW but the greatest pound-for-pound fighter. But we all know he can't hang with top heavyweights even though he would still have a reach advantage over them, which proves my point that he is not as great as you make him to be.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
Yeah and I watched Royce in UFC 1 LIVE too asshole. I love how you can say I was a baby when this aired and you don't even know my age. I'm probably older than you moron.
You just keep crying on and on about reach and height. No one, besides your minion Bill agree. Everyone has their advantages dickwad. Some have better this or better that.
Of course Jones has a physical reach advantage. Is he a better striker than Rua? NO. That's clear. But what Rua, the better striker FAILED to do against a long reached opponent was to get in on him and strike. Rua failed to do this. There are ways to beat reach. You being a studyier of the game should know this.
Just stfu already.
-
x2
Remember Royce Gracie etc.? Bigger doesn't always mean better. The smaller guy needs a gameplan to plan for the longer reach etc.
Royce wasnt considered amongst the best in his family let alone BJJ when he was raping people twice his size. From that point we have obviously seen the sport evolve, and the fighters of today would likely demolish alot of the old champions, but history has shown the smaller men can win against the odds.
Harry Greb is a tremendous example of this.
Ultimately if a fighter has enough skill he will find a way to win - modern champ Frankie Edgar & legends like Fedor & Sakuraba have showcased this enough times to make one hell of a highlight reel.
-
No one owns Shogun like that. Even the most talented fighter ever would not be able to destroy Shogun without any effort considering that Shogun is one of the top 3 LHWs ever and had 10 X more experience than Jones when they fought. Even if Jones is the most talented fighter ever, he should at least have struggled to beat him given that Shogun is one of the greatest ever and had 12 years of professional MMA experience compared to Jones who was neophyte. I don't care how gifted you are, a noob fighter is not going to toy with Shogun like that on only talent. Rampage and Machida are also top LHWs with years(plural) of fighting experience and they had nothing for Jones.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Shogun looked just as bad as he did in the Griffin fight, earlier in his career - minus the injuries - we would never have seen performances like that from him. Jones was unbelievably impressive in that fight and not just because of his reach / size, but because he fought a great fight against a man that should not have gotten in there with him. Im not saying Shogun will beat him in future but there's no way i see him folding the way he did.
Simply put, whatever you think Jones is the best LHW we've seen and all legacies are built on the blood of fallen champions.
The recurring theme to these discussions is that once people dismiss your statements and offer different opinions you seem to meltdown and ruin them. Cant you just converse in a civil manner without dragging everything down around you? Highly regarded posters like Chuteboxe dont come here anymore so we make the best with what we have, and whilst it was initially fun toying with you im sure we are all sick of it now.
-
Exactly.
Honestly, I think the real reason Jones is so dominate is because there hasn't been a LHW freak show such as him to come thru the ranks in a long time. The past LHW champs dealt with opponents there own basic size and haven't had to deal with such a long reach advantage.
This being said, reach can be overcome. No one has done it yet. Personally I think speed is the key to beating the reach. Speed is what Rashad Evans has. If he can get in on Jones and strike, he's got a real shot.
But to say Jones can't or shouldn't be fighting at 205 is pure bullshit. If weight is made that's all that matters.
-
Shogun looked just as bad as he did in the Griffin fight, earlier in his career - minus the injuries - we would never have seen performances like that from him. Jones was unbelievably impressive in that fight and not just because of his reach / size, but because he fought a great fight against a man that should not have gotten in there with him. Im not saying Shogun will beat him in future but there's no way i see him folding the way he did.
Simply put, whatever you think Jones is the best LHW we've seen and all legacies are built on the blood of fallen champions.
The recurring theme to these discussions is that once people dismiss your statements and offer different opinions you seem to meltdown and ruin them. Cant you just converse in a civil manner without dragging everything down around you? Highly regarded posters like Chuteboxe dont come here anymore so we make the best with what we have, and whilst it was initially fun toying with you im sure we are all sick of it now.
I knew you would say that. Three things:
1. Shogun hadn't fought in over a year when he fought Griffin for the first time, and had come back from surgery on his knee and back. This was not the case this time. Shogun wasn't rusty, and he went through only a minor meniscus procedure and not a major knee surgery like he had the first time.
2. Shogun didn't get even nearly as dominated against Griffin like he did against Jones. Also, Jones destroys all top LHWs with ease. Griffin has never dominated anyone, not even a rusty Shogun coming back from surgery. He beat Shogun decisively, but it was by no means a domination. Jones did to Shogun what a grown man would do to a toddler. Complete domination.
3. You are an arrogant moron who is despearate to prove that you are as intelligent as me, which is why every time you answer one of my posts, you start by saying how I "know nothing", or how "everyone laughs at you", or how I don't know shit about MMA, etc. Even if you knew more MMA than me, I would still be overall much smarter than you. MMA is not rocket science, after all. This is why it's laughable how you say that you are trying to have a "civil" conversation with me, and yet you have been insulting me and saying I don't know shit from day one. "Civil" my ass! Hypocrite.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
Exactly.
Honestly, I think the real reason Jones is so dominate is because there hasn't been a LHW freak show such as him to come thru the ranks in a long time. The past LHW champs dealt with opponents there own basic size and haven't had to deal with such a long reach advantage.
This being said, reach can be overcome. No one has done it yet. Personally I think speed is the key to beating the reach. Speed is what Rashad Evans has. If he can get in on Jones and strike, he's got a real shot.
But to say Jones can't or shouldn't be fighting at 205 is pure bullshit. If weight is made that's all that matters.
CockTrain, you have zero intelligence and self-reliance. You are GraniteCityDon's bitch and agree with everything he and Geo says. Keep saying that making weight is all that matters. At least you seem convinced. Not really.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
CockTrain, you have zero intelligence and self-reliance. You are GraniteCityDon's bitch and agree with everything he and Geo says. Keep saying that making weight is all that matters. At least you seem convinced. Not really.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
You're a moron.
Period.
-
I knew you would say that. Three things:
1. Shogun hadn't fought in over a year when he fought Griffin for the first time, and had come back from surgery on his knee and back. This was not the case this time. Shogun wasn't rusty, and he went through only a minor meniscus procedure and not a major knee surgery like he had the first time.
2. Shogun didn't get even nearly as dominated against Griffin like he did against Jones. Also, Jones destroys all top LHWs with ease. Griffin has never dominated anyone, not even a rusty Shogun coming back from surgery. He beat Shogun decisively, but it was by no means a domination. Jones did to Shogun what a grown man would do to a toddler. Complete domination.
3. You are an arrogant moron who is despearate to prove that you are as intelligent as me, which is why every time you answer one of my posts, you start by saying how I "know nothing", or how "everyone laughs at you", or how I don't know shit about MMA, etc. Even if you knew more MMA than me, I would still be overall much smarter than you. MMA is not rocket science, after all. This is why it's laughable how you say that you are trying to have a "civil" conversation with me, and yet you have been insulting me and saying I don't know shit from day one. "Civil" my ass! Hypocrite.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
OK in response since i knew you would offer this in return:
1. Time lapse between Shoguns last fight in Pride & his UFC debut: 7 months. Time lapse between beating Machida for the title & being beaten by Bones: 10 months. The knee surgery was always a factor against a mid carder like Griffin and it was far and away his worst showing (IMO the 2nd being the Coleman fight some 16 months later), but both times - regardless of the surgery - he returned half the fighter he was. To say youre not rusty after a 10 month lay off, regardless of training sessions, is absurd.
2. Bones has an incredible talent for making people look distinctly average but to say Griffin didnt dominate the fight is once again absurd. Shogun was never in it and had it gone to the judges would have lost by landslide.
3. Prove i am as smart as you?! I would wager my intelligence against yours, the way you analyse every post so that you can conscientiously format what seems like an intelligent answer (thus attempting to appear intelligent to the masses) is attention seeking at its finest. I choose to get my responses across in a universal manner, i dont need to fill a page with multi syllable words in order to have a great discussion. I recognise that, yes, you are evidently above average intelligence and would have liked to have had detailed discussions about a variety of subjects with you. The level of communication is at times refreshing however from the off you have tried to impose a sense of superiority which is what gets my back up the most.
-
I've found it a lot easier to read the guys post with a certain degree of sympathy and understanding....
people who have to be right are generally the ones that are more miserable in life both on and off the internet !@
-
I personally dont have problems with a fighter making a certain weight although i'd like to see it on the day of the fight. Rumble Johnson was a clear 205'er fighting at 170, he may have settled better at 185 but overall the guy is just too big to diet down to these ridiculous weights and it eventually cost him losses and his UFC career. It may be the same with Jones if he tries to go any lower.
I dont think theres any chance of Jones making 185 but if he could, then wheres the problem? Everyone focuses too much on the size aspect and not the fighting aspect, im something of an optimist and like to believe the bigger man doesnt always win ;D
i was being sarcastic is all, to the people who think if its within the rules than its totally acceptable which it is, but it wont garner optimum respect. Sure, if a guy can cut a shit ton of weight and beat up smaller men than more power to him but really, there is no honor in destroying the weak. I just think beating up smaller man isn't as impressive as beating up the bigger fighters, but thats just me. Some people find beating down smaller fellas more impressive for some reason, but to each his own I guess lol.
Rumble Johnson beating on that poor little asian fella was hard to watch, like a grown man beating up a 7th grader lol. But it was within the rules I guess ..
-
OK in response since i knew you would offer this in return:
1. Time lapse between Shoguns last fight in Pride & his UFC debut: 7 months. Time lapse between beating Machida for the title & being beaten by Bones: 10 months. The knee surgery was always a factor against a mid carder like Griffin and it was far and away his worst showing (IMO the 2nd being the Coleman fight some 16 months later), but both times - regardless of the surgery - he returned half the fighter he was. To say youre not rusty after a 10 month lay off, regardless of training sessions, is absurd.
2. Bones has an incredible talent for making people look distinctly average but to say Griffin didnt dominate the fight is once again absurd. Shogun was never in it and had it gone to the judges would have lost by landslide.
3. Prove i am as smart as you?! I would wager my intelligence against yours, the way you analyse every post so that you can conscientiously format what seems like an intelligent answer (thus attempting to appear intelligent to the masses) is attention seeking at its finest. I choose to get my responses across in a universal manner, i dont need to fill a page with multi syllable words in order to have a great discussion. I recognise that, yes, you are evidently above average intelligence and would have liked to have had detailed discussions about a variety of subjects with you. The level of communication is at times refreshing however from the off you have tried to impose a sense of superiority which is what gets my back up the most.
Shogun was coming from PRIDE and had to:
1. Adapt to the cage.
2. Adapt to new rules.
3. Fight with a knee that was still recovering.
And you cannot compare the fight with Griffin to the fight with Jones. Come fucking on! Shogun was able to at least devolve some strikes on Griffin and scored some points. And that was a submission loss and not a TKO. Shogun getting owned in a Muay Thai match by a neophyte fighter like Jones is just ridiculous. Shogun couldn't do anything against Jones.
As for surgery, you are so wrong about this it's not even funny. When he fought Griffin he had major knee surgery; when he fought Jones he was at almost 100%. Apples and oranges. You can't possibly say that Shogun was physically handicapped in the fight against Jones like he was in the fight against Griffin. Give me a fucking break, dude.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
You're a moron.
Period.
And yet you are the one who is known as "imbecile"...
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
i was being sarcastic is all, to the people who think if its within the rules than its totally acceptable which it is, but it wont garner optimum respect. Sure, if a guy can cut a shit ton of weight and beat up smaller men than more power to him but really, there is no honor in destroying the weak.was hard to watch, like a grown man beating up a 7th grader lol. But it was within the rules I guess ..
why don't we find out what jones enters the cage weighing and why don't we find out what everyone else enters the cage weighing before you start complaing about this "size advantage" ?
;)
-
why don't we find out what jones enters the cage weighing and why don't we find out what everyone else enters the cage weighing before you start complaing about this "size advantage" ?
;)
I think you are missing the point by dwelling on only Jones weight. It wasn't just about weight but his overall size advantage. Statistically, Jones is significantly larger compared to his competition in every way that matters.
-
And yet you are the one who is known as "imbecile"...
SUCKMYMUSCLE
OOhhh. good one. ::)
At least I know it's VITOR Belfort. Not "VICTOR" like you. This just shows your comments should be given little weight.
-
OOhhh. good one. ::)
At least I know it's VITOR Belfort. Not "VICTOR" like you. This just shows your comments should be given little weight.
oh God not another weight debate! ;)
-
OOhhh. good one.
Almost as good as you typing: "You are a moron. Period.". Now that was a good one!
At least I know it's VITOR Belfort. Not "VICTOR" like you. This just shows your comments should be given little weight.
Yeah, because names have something to do with MMA knowledge. It is comments like this that show why you are known simply as the imbecile. And "Victor" or Vitor, it doesen't make any difference except that you are desperate to find anything to criticize.
Seriously, dude, go suck on Jones balls and jack off to Griffin vs Bonnar, you TUF noob.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
Almost as good as you typing: "You are a moron. Period.". Now that was a good one!
Yeah, because names have something to do with MMA knowledge. It is comments like this that show why you are known simply as the imbecile. And "Victor" or Vitor, it doesen't make any difference except that you are desperate to find anything to criticize.
Seriously, dude, go suck on Jones balls and jack off to Griffin vs Bonnar, you TUF noob.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
I love how I get so under your skin Victor. It's quite easy to do actually.
-
I think you are missing the point by dwelling on only Jones weight. It wasn't just about weight but his overall size advantage. Statistically, Jones is significantly larger compared to his competition in every way that matters.
I dunno..
last time I checked wieght is the ONLY issue when it come to weight class's ..
but you're right though..
I think it's just a matter of time before the UFC implements hiegth and reach class's too !
;D
-
Plain and simple is Jones is a freak of nature with his limbs/reach. He makes weight though and that's all that really matters.
He has stated he'd like to fight a HW and test himself. I would like to see that.
-
the way i see it is simple: If a guy wants to fight you on the street or in a bar youre not gonna turn around and say, "sorry mate i cant because youre not in my weight class" are you?!
Just get in there and belt fuck out of whomever is opposing you like the good ol days of the open weight tournaments.
-
I love how I get so under your skin Victor. It's quite easy to do actually.
Actually, you're the one who throws hissy fits every time I post. Recall this meltdown of yours on my Machida vs Jones recap thread? ;)
Re: Jones Vs Machida: Biggest Bust Ever....
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 10:01:24 PM » Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SMM stfu. Youre sucha jones hater it's not even funny. And he was never almost out in the fight at all. He got tagged and it barely phased him.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
Actually, you're the one who throws hissy fits every time I post. Recall this meltdown of yours on my Machida vs Jones recap thread? ;)
Re: Jones Vs Machida: Biggest Bust Ever....
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2011, 10:01:24 PM » Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SMM stfu. Youre sucha jones hater it's not even funny. And he was never almost out in the fight at all. He got tagged and it barely phased him.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
The BIGGEST meltdowns occur when you spend countless amounts of time scrolling thru someone's ancient posts just to make a "meltdown" comment.
Do you need anymore ownings Victor?
-
The BIGGEST meltdowns occur when you spend countless amounts of time scrolling thru someone's ancient posts just to make a "meltdown" comment.
Do you need anymore ownings Victor?
You are such a sore loser ;D. COCK.TRAIN.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
-
You are such a sore loser ;D. COCK.TRAIN.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
Love you too buddy. ;D
-
he might do okay, bj penn fought machida at 205 and bj was a naturally lighter guy and 5 inches shorter. bj gained weight/fat and bulked up and the fight went to a decision for machida. jones may suprise people, on the other hand a huge right hand from guys like reem, dos and cain could put his lights out quick. theres a huge difference imo from getting hit by a lhw then theres is getting creamed by a monster like overeem. overeem has gotten so massive he doesnt look natural :o
-
overeem has gotten so massive he doesnt look natural :o
He isnt, no way in hell hes roid free. Human beings do not look like that without assistance and anyone who claims hes drug free should just stop posting online, period. I have to give him props for the way he is winning as he is crushing everyone right now but ive seen him lose too many times to consider him the best in the world, i do not buy into that hype at all.
-
in the end you homos are fighting over which dude can beat up the other dude. Who gives a fuck??