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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 240 is Back on July 22, 2009, 06:17:37 PM
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Obama basically said rich people will pay for 1/3 of the new healthcare costs, and the other 2/3 will be taken from other programs - the $ is already being spent.
he painted a rosy picture. I'm finally ready to learn about the bad points of this plan. Why does his plan suck?
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No tort reform or decrease in foreign spending.
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It's not a bad idea per se, universal health care would slash overall costs due improved health in the population. Eg, a woman without a health insurance who get diabetes will have less potential of working and in the end she will also get ER treatment which is the most expensive kind of health care.
But just because the idea is good doesn't mean the execution is.
The problem is if Obama allows the Healthcare bill to get propped up with extra spending.
Obama needs to get tough on both insurance companies and the most "radical" members on his own party to get an effective health care plan through.
Of course the insurance companies are going to lobby hard to prevent any measures that will cut into their earnings.
But that's a fight Obama has to take. And the same goes for those in his own party that have unrealistic ideas of what the general public wants in a universal health care plan.
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Obama basically said rich people will pay for 1/3 of the new healthcare costs, and the other 2/3 will be taken from other programs - the $ is already being spent.
he painted a rosy picture. I'm finally ready to learn about the bad points of this plan. Why does his plan suck?
Ur kidding right...maybe u realy ought to do ur own research. Look at Canada or England. Any plan can sound great on a paper. Whats ur experience with Federal programs and how well they're run.
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Ur kidding right...maybe u realy ought to do ur own research. Look at Canada or England. Any plan can sound great on a paper. Whats ur experience with Federal programs and how well they're run.
If you look at Canada and England both countries spend less on health care than USA.
Eg, quite a few countries with universal health care are going to give Swine flu vaccine to all of their citizens.
Which is macro economically sound since up to 40% are projected to contract the Swine flu.
IMO, the problem with the universal healthcare plan could be in how it's implemented.
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Want to see how effective the plan will be implemented? Take a trip to the local DMV. The govt does such a bang-up job with it, I'm sure universal healthcare will be just as good.....
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Obama basically said rich people will pay for 1/3 of the new healthcare costs, and the other 2/3 will be taken from other programs - the $ is already being spent.
he painted a rosy picture. I'm finally ready to learn about the bad points of this plan. Why does his plan suck?
240 - You are seriously out of your mind.
That press conference was a complete joke and farce.
1. Obama said 98% are going to be covered. That means 15 million illegal aliens are going to be covered.
2. Without tort reform, there by definition will be floods and floods of new lawsuits.
3. With 45 million new patients and not a proportionate increase in medical providers, by definition there will be wait lines and rationing.
4. By covering 45 million new people, you will have DMV style health care.
5. He offered no coherent way of paying for this.
This is a complete disaster.
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Obama basically said rich people will pay for 1/3 of the new healthcare costs, and the other 2/3 will be taken from other programs - the $ is already being spent.
he painted a rosy picture. I'm finally ready to learn about the bad points of this plan. Why does his plan suck?
The CBO has already said that this mess they are proposing will cost more by their projections.
Whats going to happen to the private insurance companies when this plan goes into effect? If you read the bill it says that no new policy can be issued after the plan goes into effect. So how many people is that going to put out of work?
I don't know about you, but judging by the caliber of person that we have in office, there is no way I would trust my life to them.
No tort reform, hmmmm gee I wonder why that is? Maybe because 90% of the government officials are lawyers.
i just don't understand some of you guys, how you put so much trust in government.
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Because Obama is too big to fail.
If GWB proposed this disaster, it would never fly. However, because the "One" proposed it, somehow it is going to work.
Its ridiculous. Go to the DMV and post office and tell me how good govt works.
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Obama basically said rich people will pay for 1/3 of the new healthcare costs, and the other 2/3 will be taken from other programs - the $ is already being spent.
he painted a rosy picture. I'm finally ready to learn about the bad points of this plan. Why does his plan suck?
You believe the same guy who said no one under 250K will be taxed...exposed as a liar...and now want to move in Cap & Trade.....so you might want to buy this new bridge I got a hold of...contact me at:
hustleingyourass@whileyoupraisemelikeyour.messiah.com
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Look Here to See What’s in the Health Care Bill: CHILLING!
Larry Schweikart
Take a look at what actually is in the Health Care bill. Obama makes disingenuous comments like "You'll still keep your doctor" or "You'll keep your existing health care." He is either lying to us or he has no idea what is in it. Take a peek at the full report, or look at some of the highlights here:
Pg 22 of the HC Bill mandates the Government will audit books of all employers that self insure. Can you imagine what that will do to small businesses? Every one will abandon “self insurance” and go on Government insurance. So when Obama says that there will still be private health care, it’s simply a lie: this mandate will force employers to abandon their private plans.
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill – a Government committee (good luck with that!) will decide what treatments/benefits a person may receive.
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE WILL BE RATIONED! (We all knew this, because health care is rationed in Canada and Britain, but Obama kept saying it would not be).
Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You will have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your bank accts for election funds transfer
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations (read: ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government will create an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange.
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Government will ration your Healthcare!
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example - Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups, i.e. ACORN & Americorps, to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members - your Health care WILL be rationed.
-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Government on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Government Monopoly.
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Government will tell YOU what you can earn.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE.
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll $400k & above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.
pg 150 Lines 9-13 Businesses with payroll between $251k & $400k who don’t provide public option pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Government will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay.)
Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (the GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans’ finances and personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill – Doctors – doesn’t matter what specialty – will all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgment, etc. Literally, value of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131Government mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
PG 268 Sec 1141 Federal Government regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151 The Government will penalize hospitals for what Government deems preventable readmissions.
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors who treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission - Government will penalize you.
Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government tells Doctors what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion - Government will mandate hospitals cannot expand.
pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures which of course forces health care rationing.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc., forcing people into Government plan.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!
Pg 379 Sec 1191 Government creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Committee. HC by phone.
PG 425 Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consultations. Think Senior Citizens end of life prodding.
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Government will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in how to die.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advanced care planning consultant" will be used frequently as patients’ health deteriorates.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advanced care consultation" may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from the Government to end a life!
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The Government will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services/Non profit orgs. (ACORN Medical Services here?)
Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORGANIZATION. 1 monthly payment to a community-based organization. (Like ACORN?)
PG 489 Sec 1308 The Government will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Government into our marriages.
Pg 494-498 Government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services. You’d better speak up now before you are on the "advanced care consultation" list.
Recently I had a talk with a colleague (one on my side of the aisle) about the increasingly dire threat posed to this country by the unholy trinity of Obama/Reid-Pelosi/ and the media. The upshot of this person's question to me was, "What can you say that will give me some hope? Some optimism? Is there a way we can reach the kids, the students, and the younger people?"
We aren't quite "done" yet, but the old thermometer is edging up by the day, and I don't mean global warming. Cap and Trade (i.e., "cap and tax") has passed the House and our hopes of avoiding federal enviro-nazis swooping into our homes and clamping down "do not sell" restrictions on our houses until we comply with their inane regulations hangs on the votes of a few left-wing Democrat senators who in the past have shown no inclination to challenge Harry Reid. (You see, the Democrat Party has this habit of actually punishing so-called "mavericks" who criticize Dem leadership.) Real-life Gong-Show refugees such as Al Franken now will vote on your right to drive what you want and eat what you want. But that's only the tip of the iceberg.
There is new twitter about the C02 pollution of computers. Once the computer becomes the next SUV, what sites, exactly, do you think will be deemed the most "polluting?" You got it: Drudge, FreeRepublic; Redstate; and a host of conservative sites. Guess which ones will be ok? Huffington Post, MSNBC, and Daily Kos.
But it gets worse: the National Socialist (that would be Nazi, if you were in Germany) Health Care system that is now about to come up for a vote will absolutely eliminate private health care options. Do not kid yourself: They are going to say that they aren't going to interfere with your right to go to your "own doctor" or have your own "private health insurance." But there won't be non-government doctors or private health insurance if the government mandates them out of existence.
Do not forget that this was a major goal of Hillarycare just 15 years ago. Once people found out, it caused a firestorm – but times have changed. The media was atrocious then, but it's a 100 percent propaganda machine for the Left today. A few holdouts, such as Fox and Rush, remind me of the brave Dutch shouting at the storm troopers before they were gunned down. If Health Care or Cap and Tax fail, the media will see it as the failure of their guy, and in their view, Obama must not be allowed to fail.
Even still, I hear people who want to "get past all this partisanship." Sorry, but GROW UP.
Our system from the beginning has pitted one group against another out of fear of the very giant government that is metastasizing before our eyes. James Madison didn't like "parties" or "factions," but he finally admitted that they were absolutely necessary to fragment power. In Washington today, however, we nearly have one political party: the Democrats, who march in lock step with Obama while the cowardly Republicans who, aside from a few heroes (John Kyl, Jeff Sessions, Jim DeMint come to mind in the Senate, and most of those remaining in the House), are merely "me-too Democrats."
For our system to work there has to be a clear choice, not a mushy middle, because the mushy middle always, always, always gravitates left. There is a "presumption of power" on the left –conservatives, by nature, do not like government, don't trust it, and do not want to use it to advance their ends, which they see as advanced through liberty, individual achievement, and entrepreneurship.
If Republicans do not unite 100 percent –and soon – behind the idea that the unholy trinity must be stopped dead or we will not have the American Republic that we have all known all our lives, it may soon be too late. Maybe it's time all of you got just a little mad.
FamilySecurityMatters.or g Contributing Editor Larry Schweikart is the author o 48 Liberal Lies About American History: (That You Probably Learned in School) and A Patriot’s History of the United States: From Columbus’s Great Discovery to the War on Terror. He blogs at patriotshistoryusa.blogs pot.com.
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THIS IS WHAT IS WRONG ABOUT ABOUT THE BILL 240!
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Because Obama is too big to fail.
If GWB proposed this disaster, it would never fly. However, because the "One" proposed it, somehow it is going to work.
Its ridiculous. Go to the DMV and post office and tell me how good govt works.
The problem I am having is why are people so willing to let the federal government take over more and more of their lives? I think some need to read the constitution and bill of rights, there is reason why they were written they way they were. The founding fathers knew what happens when government becomes to big and powerful, therefore limited the power of the federal government.
The states really need to take a long hard look at the 10th Amendment.
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The problem I am having is why are people so willing to let the federal government take over more and more of their lives? I think some need to read the constitution and bill of rights, there is reason why they were written they way they were. The founding fathers knew what happens when government becomes to big and powerful, therefore limited the power of the federal government.
The states really need to take a long hard look at the 10th Amendment.
THEY DONT FUCKING CARE SO LONG AS SOME OTHER PERSON IS PERCEIVED AS PAYING FOR IT!
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i asked very politely, guys. I was being serious. I have a lot of poor people in my family and friends. I'm middle class I suppose. I would be happy if they were covered a bit more, but I don't want to lose mine and I don't want my taxes to go up to pay for it.
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i asked very politely, guys. I was being serious. I have a lot of poor people in my family and friends. I'm middle class I suppose. I would be happy if they were covered a bit more, but I don't want to lose mine and I don't want my taxes to go up to pay for it.
there are simply not enough rich people to be able to pay for all of this. The best thing they can do is the get the hell out of the way and allow insurance carriers to right high deductible policies with low premiuims.
People cant have everything for free. WTF country do we live in anymore?
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i asked very politely, guys. I was being serious. I have a lot of poor people in my family and friends. I'm middle class I suppose. I would be happy if they were covered a bit more, but I don't want to lose mine and I don't want my taxes to go up to pay for it.
I wonder how much the taxes will go up for the people that will be paying for 1/3 of it?
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I wonder how much the taxes will go up for the people that will be paying for 1/3 of it?
The devil is in the details, once the government gets something like this implemented it never goes away. Sure at first it will be the "rich" who get taxed more for the plan. Then as time progress's that just won't be good enough. Then 10 yrs down the road everyone is getting taxed more to pay for the monstrosity the government has created.
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The devil is in the details, once the government gets something like this implemented it never goes away. Sure at first it will be the "rich" who get taxed more for the plan. Then as time progress's that just won't be good enough. Then 10 yrs down the road everyone is getting taxed more to pay for the monstrosity the government has created.
The UE will be so high, that no one will be able to pay for this.
Obama is a disaster and until the stimulus works out as his projections said they would, we should not trust him with this.
He is already a failure by definition and shame on you 240 if you believe him on this.
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i asked very politely, guys. I was being serious. I have a lot of poor people in my family and friends. I'm middle class I suppose. I would be happy if they were covered a bit more, but I don't want to lose mine and I don't want my taxes to go up to pay for it.
240,
In all seriousness:
In the future when your Parents are told 'No" with a necessary needed surgery, because of their age,
so that a 25 yr old illegal alien from Guatemala can get his surgery instead ( longer life expectancy)
I hope you are still "happy" with your National health insurance .
(http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv304/MRFLUFFY219/CANCELED3.png)
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Hedge- Canada and England are not analogous countries to the United States when discussing government programs, especially universal healthcare. Our population is much larger, we have 10x the illegal immigrants and a tort system that could bankrupt the planet.
This is a bad idea any way you cut it- There isn't enough money, healthcare becomes another gargantuan agency with an Orwellian title controlled by a bunch of bureaucratic pipsqueaks and yes men who are going to be just as bad as the health insurance paper pushers that run HMO's and other insurance outfits today. The only difference is that todays pencil necks only care about $- which is their job and everyone in America can buy the best healthcare they can afford. Under Barry's healthcare oligarchy, everyone will be forced to have the same shitty, mediocre healthcare or pay up the ass for having something else. Furthermore, when the fuck is everyone going to wake up and realize that having the government control everything is a bad idea. Have you looked at the numbskulls in Congress? Have you read about the corruption by both parties? Did you think GW Bush was smart? Do you think Obama has a fucking clue what hes doing?
Privatization is the only way to go, with government alternatives. Not the other way around. The 250 million of us who can afford healthcare or that have some sort of government funded healthcare should not be forced to endure what 20 million have nots and 20 million illegal immigrants demand, just so Obama can increase his voting bloc in the next election.
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(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3437/3748304760_3b3a94f13f_o.jpg)
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Hedge- Canada and England are not analogous countries to the United States when discussing government programs, especially universal healthcare. Our population is much larger, we have 10x the illegal immigrants and a tort system that could bankrupt the planet.
This is a bad idea any way you cut it- There isn't enough money, healthcare becomes another gargantuan agency with an Orwellian title controlled by a bunch of bureaucratic pipsqueaks and yes men who are going to be just as bad as the health insurance paper pushers that run HMO's and other insurance outfits today. The only difference is that todays pencil necks only care about $- which is their job and everyone in America can buy the best healthcare they can afford. Under Barry's healthcare oligarchy, everyone will be forced to have the same shitty, mediocre healthcare or pay up the ass for having something else. Furthermore, when the fuck is everyone going to wake up and realize that having the government control everything is a bad idea. Have you looked at the numbskulls in Congress? Have you read about the corruption by both parties? Did you think GW Bush was smart? Do you think Obama has a fucking clue what hes doing?
Privatization is the only way to go, with government alternatives. Not the other way around. The 250 million of us who can afford healthcare or that have some sort of government funded healthcare should not be forced to endure what 20 million have nots and 20 million illegal immigrants demand, just so Obama can increase his voting bloc in the next election.
Well said
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This Health-Care Reform Might Tax Us to Death
Just how bad IS the new proposed legislation on so-called health-care reform for investors? Well, how much time do you have?
Let's start with the price. This thing is going to cost trillions of dollars. And how do you think it's going to get paid for?
Investors are going to get taxed. You are going to get taxed. It's that simple. The people without health insurance -- the very people whom this is supposed to help -- are going to get taxed too. And millions of them will be left without insurance (even though they have to pay higher taxes).
First, to the investors. According to the bill passed this week by the House of Representatives, any individual who makes more than $280,000 a year -- or any couple that makes more than $350,000 -- is going to pay a surcharge of at least 1% of income above those levels. The more you make, the more you pay. The biggest earners will face a surcharge of 5.4%.
It will kick in for tax year 2011, which is when the 2003 tax cuts "sunset" away and revert to the previous higher levels. Put it together and you have a serious tax hike for the kind of people who do most of the investing in this country.
According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, the top marginal federal-income tax rate will be 45%. If you take state taxes into account, it's off the charts. According to the nonpartisan Tax Foundation, if you include state income taxes, people in 39 out of 50 states will be above the 50% tax rate.
My home state, California, will boast a rate of 56.6%. Did you happen to notice that "for sale" sign out in front of my house? With taxes like that, I'm moving somewhere else, and I pretty much don't care where. (I hear taxes on the moon are especially low.)
Investors pay another way, too. Suppose you own stock in one of the health care companies that gets destroyed when government takes over? Don't think it won't happen. Since Barack Obama was inaugurated in January on a mandate of "change" -- including so-called health care "reform" -- the S&P 500 has returned 17.4%. But with the threat of "reform" hanging over it, the health care sector has only returned 4.8%. The difference -- 12.6% -- is a loss for investors.
People who can't afford to invest will pay, too. Under the House's bill, every American would be required to have health care insurance whether they want it or not. That's the way it is in socialist dictatorships -- anything not forbidden is mandatory. If you choose not to get insurance, you get hit with an "excise tax," which is a fancy way of saying a fine or a penalty. It's approximately 2.5% of your income.
The government will give you insurance for free if your income is less than four times the poverty line. But suppose you're a middle class working guy or gal -- you're not impoverished, but you need to save every penny. You're young and healthy, so you've decided to do without insurance. Sorry, you have to pay the excise tax. So you look around and figure out if you can get health care insurance -- which you don't even want -- for less than the amount of the excise tax. If you can't, then you pay the tax. And you're still not insured. Or if you decide you might as well buy the insurance anyway, you've still been "taxed" because you're spending money on something you don't want or need in a way that you didn't choose. There's good research that suggests that there are as many as eight million Americans who will be in this situation.
Insured or uninsured, well off enough to pay the surcharge or not, everyone is going to be hurt by this. Because when you raise taxes like this, you suck money out of the economy that could go into spending, saving and investing.
Second, you put government in charge of something that should be a matter of private initiative and personal choice.
And don't tell me that only government can step in and prevent runaway "health care inflation." There's no such thing. The average overall inflation rate has been 3.8% per year. For health care, it's been 5.5%. Higher but not exactly a "runaway" number that justifies the government seizing control of a sector that represents about 17% of gross domestic product. Why is "health care inflation" higher than overall inflation? For all we know, it could be because health care has so many amazing innovations -- drugs, tests and procedures that couldn't have even been imagined just a decade ago -- that it's impossible to track the "price." Or it could be because health care is already very highly regulated, subsidized and otherwise interfered with by government. If there is inflation there, maybe it's because the private sector hasn't been able to work its capitalist magic.
The banking sector is also regulated, subsidized and otherwise interfered with by government. And look where that got us. (Ever hear of the credit crisis?) Its historical inflation rate is higher than the overall inflation rate, too.
But look at food. Other than basic safety inspection, food production and distribution is hardly regulated at all. It’s more essential than health care. The private sector handles it all. Its historical inflation rate is lower than the overall rate, not higher.
To me, all this is so simple and so obvious; I just can't believe a nation of intelligent people will destroy itself this way. So I think it's worth a bet that we'll pull back from the brink and reject this particular bit of madness. I think it's possible that stocks have rallied this week precisely because this call for ruinous taxes is sure to be rejected, and when it is, it will put the high-tax genii back in his bottle for a long while.
So watch this one carefully. It's a test case. If this nearly criminal tax-and-don't-insure scheme is enacted into law, the nascent bull market is over. But if I'm right, and it gets rejected, then stocks could move a lot higher once they see that it's still possible for the government of this country to do the right thing every once in a while.
Donald Luskin is chief investment officer of Trend Macrolytics, an economics consulting firm serving institutional investors. You may contact him at don@trendmacro.com.
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Hedge- Canada and England are not analogous countries to the United States when discussing government programs, especially universal healthcare. Our population is much larger, we have 10x the illegal immigrants and a tort system that could bankrupt the planet.
This is a bad idea any way you cut it- There isn't enough money, healthcare becomes another gargantuan agency with an Orwellian title controlled by a bunch of bureaucratic pipsqueaks and yes men who are going to be just as bad as the health insurance paper pushers that run HMO's and other insurance outfits today. The only difference is that todays pencil necks only care about $- which is their job and everyone in America can buy the best healthcare they can afford. Under Barry's healthcare oligarchy, everyone will be forced to have the same shitty, mediocre healthcare or pay up the ass for having something else. Furthermore, when the fuck is everyone going to wake up and realize that having the government control everything is a bad idea. Have you looked at the numbskulls in Congress? Have you read about the corruption by both parties? Did you think GW Bush was smart? Do you think Obama has a fucking clue what hes doing?
Privatization is the only way to go, with government alternatives. Not the other way around. The 250 million of us who can afford healthcare or that have some sort of government funded healthcare should not be forced to endure what 20 million have nots and 20 million illegal immigrants demand, just so Obama can increase his voting bloc in the next election.
Good post.
Couple of points:
* I didn't compare USA with Canada and the UK in the first place. HH6 did, and I simply pointed out that both Canada and the UK have decent health care systems compared to the USA.
* I believe that the idea in itself - universal health care - is beneficial for everyone. Even for high earners. Reason? The overall health of the society will improve and thus more people will be able to contribute to society. It's just like a strength athlete - keep him healthy and he will lift more. Also, with potential pandemias that potentially could take out up to 50 % of the workforce, it's much better to have a system where everyone get treatment at an early level.
Compare USA or Mexico to countries that have a well functioning universal health care. Where do you see most Swine flu cases? Not to mention – where are people dying from the Swine flu?
How can you afford NOT to introduce universal health care. That's the question I think everyone should ask.
* I do believe, and I think we are in agreement here, that the potential problem will be the implementation of a universal health care system.
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Good post.
Couple of points:
* I didn't compare USA with Canada and the UK in the first place. HH6 did, and I simply pointed out that both Canada and the UK have decent health care systems compared to the USA.
* I believe that the idea in itself - universal health care - is beneficial for everyone. Even for high earners. Reason? The overall health of the society will improve and thus more people will be able to contribute to society. It's just like a strength athlete - keep him healthy and he will lift more. Also, with potential pandemias that potentially could take out up to 50 % of the workforce, it's much better to have a system where everyone get treatment at an early level.
Compare USA or Mexico to countries that have a well functioning universal health care. Where do you see most Swine flu cases? Not to mention – where are people dying from the Swine flu?
How can you afford NOT to introduce universal health care. That's the question I think everyone should ask.
* I do believe, and I think we are in agreement here, that the potential problem will be the implementation of a universal health care system.
Hedge:
You need to understand something:
1. Without tort reform, there will be a massive flood of med mal lawsuits and huge premimum increases for docs' insurance.
2. There are 20 million illegals in this country who already game the system.
3. The govt in this country is a complete failure. the govt medical programs we have now, medicaire and medicaid, are already broke,.
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This is what ObamaCare is really about. Shovel Ready.
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Hedge:
You need to understand something:
1. Without tort reform, there will be a massive flood of med mal lawsuits and huge premimum increases for docs' insurance.
2. There are 20 million illegals in this country who already game the system.
3. The govt in this country is a complete failure. the govt medical programs we have now, medicaire and medicaid, are already broke,.
1. A reform is needed when it comes to the whole lawsuit business. It's pretty ridiculous right now.
2. I don't know what your system is gonna look like. But where I live, illegal aliens are prohibited from getting anything else but ER treatment. They don't have a social number, so they cannot get into the system.
3. As far as medicare and medicaid goes – I agree. Big reform has to take place somehow. Just my opinion though.
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Do you really think there is going to be any sort of tort reform when 90% of the elected officals are lawyers
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Do you really think there is going to be any sort of tort reform when 90% of the elected officals are lawyers
DEADLY DOCTORS
O ADVISORS WANT TO RATION CARE
By BETSY MCCAUGHEY
July 24, 2009 --
THE health bills coming out of Congress would put the decisions about your care in the hands of presidential appointees. They'd decide what plans cover, how much leeway your doctor will have and what seniors get under Medicare.
Yet at least two of President Obama's top health advisers should never be trusted with that power.
Start with Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel. He has already been appointed to two key positions: health-policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget and a member of Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research.
Emanuel bluntly admits that the cuts will not be pain-free. "Vague promises of savings from cutting waste, enhancing prevention and wellness, installing electronic medical records and improving quality are merely 'lipstick' cost control, more for show and public relations than for true change," he wrote last year (Health Affairs Feb. 27, 2008).
Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, "as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others" (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).
Yes, that's what patients want their doctors to do. But Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of their patients and consider social justice, such as whether the money could be better spent on somebody else.
Many doctors are horrified by this notion; they'll tell you that a doctor's job is to achieve social justice one patient at a time.
Emanuel, however, believes that "communitarianism" should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).
Translation: Don't give much care to a grandmother with Parkinson's or a child with cerebral palsy.
He explicitly defends discrimination against older patients: "Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years" (Lancet, Jan. 31).
The bills being rushed through Congress will be paid for largely by a $500 billion-plus cut in Medicare over 10 years. Knowing how unpopular the cuts will be, the president's budget director, Peter Orszag, urged Congress this week to delegate its own authority over Medicare to a new, presidentially-appointed bureaucracy that wouldn't be accountable to the public.
Since Medicare was founded in 1965, seniors' lives have been transformed by new medical treatments such as angioplasty, bypass surgery and hip and knee replacements. These innovations allow the elderly to lead active lives. But Emanuel criticizes Americans for being too "enamored with technology" and is determined to reduce access to it.
Dr. David Blumenthal, another key Obama adviser, agrees. He recommends slowing medical innovation to control health spending.
Blumenthal has long advocated government health-spending controls, though he concedes they're "associated with longer waits" and "reduced availability of new and expensive treatments and devices" (New England Journal of Medicine, March 8, 2001). But he calls it "debatable" whether the timely care Americans get is worth the cost. (Ask a cancer patient, and you'll get a different answer. Delay lowers your chances of survival.)
Obama appointed Blumenthal as national coordinator of health-information technology, a job that involves making sure doctors obey electronically delivered guidelines about what care the government deems appropriate and cost effective.
In the April 9 New England Journal of Medicine, Blumenthal predicted that many doctors would resist "embedded clinical decision support" -- a euphemism for computers telling doctors what to do.
Americans need to know what the president's health advisers have in mind for them. Emanuel sees even basic amenities as luxuries and says Americans expect too much: "Hospital rooms in the United States offer more privacy . . . physicians' offices are typically more conveniently located and have parking nearby and more attractive waiting rooms" (JAMA, June 18, 2008).
No one has leveled with the public about these dangerous views. Nor have most people heard about the arm-twisting, Chicago-style tactics being used to force support. In a Nov. 16, 2008, Health Care Watch column, Emanuel explained how business should be done: "Every favor to a constituency should be linked to support for the health-care reform agenda. If the automakers want a bailout, then they and their suppliers have to agree to support and lobby for the administration's health-reform effort."
Do we want a "reform" that empowers people like this to decide for us?
Betsy McCaughey is a patient advocate, founder of the Committee to Reduce Infection Deaths and a former New York lieutenant governor. For more information on the status health care legislation, visit www.defendyourhealthcare .us.
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Maybe people just don't get it, this is about control of the population, not our benefit. I can't remember a time when there has been such a power grab by the federal government starting with Bush.
Most everyone on here agree's that politicans in general are a bunch of fuckups, yet we are going to trust these same fuckups with our health care. We are going to trust them to do what is best for America when they spend every waking hour trying to figure out how to stay in power and line their pockets.
The wheels are already in motion, they are going to decide what kind of car you can drive (GM), and if you decide to stray away from government motors they are going to slap a nice big fat VAT on other car brands.
Health care, what do you think the government is going to do with this? Maybe tell you what you can eat, if you can smoke, drink? Deny care if you do anything they deem to be detrimental to your health.
Cap and Trade - Destroy American business, once you are unemployed and can't find a job who are you dependent on, the government.
Whats next? Maybe they will decide that since some people can afford better more expensive cloths, that its just not fair, an we will have a dress code.
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Whats next? Maybe they will decide that since some people can afford better more expensive cloths, that its just not fair, an we will have a dress code.
Slightly off-topic = I think school uniforms a la England is a great idea.
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Slightly off-topic = I think school uniforms a la England is a great idea.
I agree.