Author Topic: America and Iraq  (Read 2189 times)

headhuntersix

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America and Iraq
« on: March 25, 2008, 08:04:29 AM »
http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB120596948337250223.html

Five years after U.S. and coalition forces began rolling into Iraq on their way to Baghdad, it's easy to lament the war's mistakes.

The Bush Administration underestimated the war's cost -- in treasure, and most painfully in lives. The CIA and every other Western intelligence agency was wrong about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. The U.S. failed to anticipate the insurgency and was almost fatally late in implementing a counterinsurgency. It allowed the U.N. to design a system of proportional electoral representation that has encouraged its sectarian political divisions. And so on.

These columns have often discussed these and other blunders. But we have always done so while supporting the larger war effort and with a goal of victory that would be worthy of the sacrifice. Five years on, and thanks to the troop "surge" and strategy change of the last year, many of the goals that motivated the original invasion are once again within reach if we see the effort through.

* * *
No one should forget that the invasion toppled a dictator who had already terrorized the region and would sooner or later have threatened American interests. This by itself was no small achievement. Saddam's trial was a teaching moment for that part of the Arab world that used to cheer him; his hanging, however crudely carried out, was a warning to dictators everywhere.

Iraq may not have had WMD, but Saddam admitted to American interrogators that he planned to reconstitute his WMD effort once U.N. sanctions collapsed. The capture of Saddam persuaded Libya's Moammar Gadhafi to abandon his nuclear program and seek a reconciliation with the U.S. This in turn led to the rolling up of Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan's proliferation network, whose arms extended to Iran and North Korea.

Strategically, Iraq has gone from being one of America's two principal enemies (with Iran) in the region to one of its two principal allies (with Israel). Iraq's government, for all of its shortcomings, demonstrates that a Shiite-led government need not be a theocracy. The invasion did prompt thousands of jihadis to emerge from places like Saudi Arabia and Morocco to fight the "crusaders and infidels." Thousands of them are now dead or in prison, however, and the radical corners of the Arab world have learned that America cannot be defeated by a strategy of car bombs and assassination.

The strategic case for toppling Saddam also rested in part on the idea that a free Iraq would provide a strategic counterweight to Iran and Syria, as well as an ideological counterexample for a region where autocracy is the norm. The potency of that combination has been demonstrated by Sunni Arab hostility to the new Iraqi government; by Iran, Syria and al Qaeda efforts to destabilize it; and by those in the West who have sought to denigrate the effort as a way to diminish U.S. power.

Today, those efforts have largely failed. A new generation of European leaders has no interest in humiliating the U.S. and understands the danger of a chaotic Iraq. Al Qaeda has been nearly destroyed as a fighting force in Iraq and has lost support in the Arab Street with its brutality against Iraq's Sunni Arabs. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Sunni states are belatedly coming to terms with the new Iraq as they conclude that the U.S. won't leave in defeat.

The Iraqi government is also at last beginning to meet its most important political commitments. Yesterday, Iraq's presidency council agreed to a law on provincial elections to go forward after a month's delay. The central government has passed a budget, approved a detainee amnesty, enlisted 425,000 men in its security forces and increased oil production to 2.4 million barrels a day while funneling $100 million a year to its provinces. This is happening while the number of daily insurgent attacks has been cut by about two-thirds, with commensurate declines in civilian and military casualties.

Where do we go from here? Iraq's transition to self-government remains fragile enough that U.S. forces will need to remain there in some numbers for years to come. The two countries will have to strike a long-term U.S.-Iraq military agreement, which would serve the interests of both countries. For Iraq, it would show America's continuing commitment in a rough neighborhood. And for the U.S., it would make the job of containing Iran easier. President Bush can best serve his Presidential successor by leaving enough troops on the ground to give him or her some strategic flexibility.

It is therefore unfortunate, and dangerous, that both Democratic candidates have backed themselves into a corner by endorsing rapid withdrawal from Iraq. In a speech yesterday in North Carolina, Barack Obama called for an almost complete U.S. withdrawal in 16 months. He continues to endorse the illusion that defeat in Iraq will help us prevail in Afghanistan; the opposite is closer to the truth. We will never maintain the support, either at home or abroad, to prevail in Afghanistan if we show we can be driven from the more vital strategic prize of Iraq.

* * *
In our March 18, 2003 editorial1 on the eve of Iraq's liberation, we supported the war while noting that "toppling Saddam is a long-term undertaking" and "the U.S. has never been good at nation-building." We wish we had been wrong on both counts, but our view has always been that nations shouldn't begin wars they don't intend to win. And newspapers don't endorse wars only to walk away when the fighting gets difficult. The U.S. sacrifice in Iraq has been honorable, our soldiers have fought superbly, and the best way -- the only way -- to honor both is to leave Iraq in victory.

L

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 08:06:11 AM »
yes, it was good we toppled a dictator.

were 4,000 american lives and 30k+ injuries worth making life better for 23 mil iraqis?

I'd say No.

was it worth the cost to control their oil and keep dollar in play and build bases?

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 08:10:54 AM »
yes, it was good we toppled a dictator.

were 4,000 american lives and 30k+ injuries worth making life better for 23 mil iraqis?

I'd say No.

was it worth the cost to control their oil and keep dollar in play and build bases?

 ::)



http://www.ddaymuseum.org/education/education_numbers.html



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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 08:30:37 AM »
http://www.ddaymuseum.org/education/education_numbers.html

You're telling me since we lost LESS LIVES over there, it's okay?

Dude, ONE american life lost to take out saddam wasn't fucking worth it.

He was a piece of shit, but not worth one precious American life.  Americans are worth more than any poece of shit dictator.  Maybe YOU can tell us that 4000 lives for his was a fair deal, but I don't agree.

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 08:37:10 AM »
The real numbers may not be known until bush gets out of office.  the Iraq ministry themselves are counting and reporting to US, And they say the numbers that are being reported are drastically lower than actal numbers.

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 08:37:42 AM »
http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB120596948337250223.html

Five years after U.S. and coalition forces began rolling into Iraq on their way to Baghdad, it's easy to lament the war's mistakes.

The Bush Administration underestimated the war's cost -- in treasure, and most painfully in lives. The CIA and every other Western intelligence agency was wrong about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. The U.S. failed to anticipate the insurgency and was almost fatally late in implementing a counterinsurgency. It allowed the U.N. to design a system of proportional electoral representation that has encouraged its sectarian political divisions. And so on.

These columns have often discussed these and other blunders. But we have always done so while supporting the larger war effort and with a goal of victory that would be worthy of the sacrifice. Five years on, and thanks to the troop "surge" and strategy change of the last year, many of the goals that motivated the original invasion are once again within reach if we see the effort through.

* * *
No one should forget that the invasion toppled a dictator who had already terrorized the region and would sooner or later have threatened American interests. This by itself was no small achievement. Saddam's trial was a teaching moment for that part of the Arab world that used to cheer him; his hanging, however crudely carried out, was a warning to dictators everywhere.

Iraq may not have had WMD, but Saddam admitted to American interrogators that he planned to reconstitute his WMD effort once U.N. sanctions collapsed. The capture of Saddam persuaded Libya's Moammar Gadhafi to abandon his nuclear program and seek a reconciliation with the U.S. This in turn led to the rolling up of Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan's proliferation network, whose arms extended to Iran and North Korea.

Strategically, Iraq has gone from being one of America's two principal enemies (with Iran) in the region to one of its two principal allies (with Israel). Iraq's government, for all of its shortcomings, demonstrates that a Shiite-led government need not be a theocracy. The invasion did prompt thousands of jihadis to emerge from places like Saudi Arabia and Morocco to fight the "crusaders and infidels." Thousands of them are now dead or in prison, however, and the radical corners of the Arab world have learned that America cannot be defeated by a strategy of car bombs and assassination.

The strategic case for toppling Saddam also rested in part on the idea that a free Iraq would provide a strategic counterweight to Iran and Syria, as well as an ideological counterexample for a region where autocracy is the norm. The potency of that combination has been demonstrated by Sunni Arab hostility to the new Iraqi government; by Iran, Syria and al Qaeda efforts to destabilize it; and by those in the West who have sought to denigrate the effort as a way to diminish U.S. power.

Today, those efforts have largely failed. A new generation of European leaders has no interest in humiliating the U.S. and understands the danger of a chaotic Iraq. Al Qaeda has been nearly destroyed as a fighting force in Iraq and has lost support in the Arab Street with its brutality against Iraq's Sunni Arabs. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Sunni states are belatedly coming to terms with the new Iraq as they conclude that the U.S. won't leave in defeat.

The Iraqi government is also at last beginning to meet its most important political commitments. Yesterday, Iraq's presidency council agreed to a law on provincial elections to go forward after a month's delay. The central government has passed a budget, approved a detainee amnesty, enlisted 425,000 men in its security forces and increased oil production to 2.4 million barrels a day while funneling $100 million a year to its provinces. This is happening while the number of daily insurgent attacks has been cut by about two-thirds, with commensurate declines in civilian and military casualties.

Where do we go from here? Iraq's transition to self-government remains fragile enough that U.S. forces will need to remain there in some numbers for years to come. The two countries will have to strike a long-term U.S.-Iraq military agreement, which would serve the interests of both countries. For Iraq, it would show America's continuing commitment in a rough neighborhood. And for the U.S., it would make the job of containing Iran easier. President Bush can best serve his Presidential successor by leaving enough troops on the ground to give him or her some strategic flexibility.

It is therefore unfortunate, and dangerous, that both Democratic candidates have backed themselves into a corner by endorsing rapid withdrawal from Iraq. In a speech yesterday in North Carolina, Barack Obama called for an almost complete U.S. withdrawal in 16 months. He continues to endorse the illusion that defeat in Iraq will help us prevail in Afghanistan; the opposite is closer to the truth. We will never maintain the support, either at home or abroad, to prevail in Afghanistan if we show we can be driven from the more vital strategic prize of Iraq.

* * *
In our March 18, 2003 editorial1 on the eve of Iraq's liberation, we supported the war while noting that "toppling Saddam is a long-term undertaking" and "the U.S. has never been good at nation-building." We wish we had been wrong on both counts, but our view has always been that nations shouldn't begin wars they don't intend to win. And newspapers don't endorse wars only to walk away when the fighting gets difficult. The U.S. sacrifice in Iraq has been honorable, our soldiers have fought superbly, and the best way -- the only way -- to honor both is to leave Iraq in victory.

idiot
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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 08:40:08 AM »
http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB120596948337250223.html

Five years after U.S. and coalition forces began rolling into Iraq on their way to Baghdad, it's easy to lament the war's mistakes.

The Bush Administration underestimated the war's cost -- in treasure, and most painfully in lives. The CIA and every other Western intelligence agency was wrong about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. The U.S. failed to anticipate the insurgency and was almost fatally late in implementing a counterinsurgency. It allowed the U.N. to design a system of proportional electoral representation that has encouraged its sectarian political divisions. And so on.

These columns have often discussed these and other blunders. But we have always done so while supporting the larger war effort and with a goal of victory that would be worthy of the sacrifice. Five years on, and thanks to the troop "surge" and strategy change of the last year, many of the goals that motivated the original invasion are once again within reach if we see the effort through.

* * *
No one should forget that the invasion toppled a dictator who had already terrorized the region and would sooner or later have threatened American interests. This by itself was no small achievement. Saddam's trial was a teaching moment for that part of the Arab world that used to cheer him; his hanging, however crudely carried out, was a warning to dictators everywhere.

Iraq may not have had WMD, but Saddam admitted to American interrogators that he planned to reconstitute his WMD effort once U.N. sanctions collapsed. The capture of Saddam persuaded Libya's Moammar Gadhafi to abandon his nuclear program and seek a reconciliation with the U.S. This in turn led to the rolling up of Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan's proliferation network, whose arms extended to Iran and North Korea.

Strategically, Iraq has gone from being one of America's two principal enemies (with Iran) in the region to one of its two principal allies (with Israel). Iraq's government, for all of its shortcomings, demonstrates that a Shiite-led government need not be a theocracy. The invasion did prompt thousands of jihadis to emerge from places like Saudi Arabia and Morocco to fight the "crusaders and infidels." Thousands of them are now dead or in prison, however, and the radical corners of the Arab world have learned that America cannot be defeated by a strategy of car bombs and assassination.

The strategic case for toppling Saddam also rested in part on the idea that a free Iraq would provide a strategic counterweight to Iran and Syria, as well as an ideological counterexample for a region where autocracy is the norm. The potency of that combination has been demonstrated by Sunni Arab hostility to the new Iraqi government; by Iran, Syria and al Qaeda efforts to destabilize it; and by those in the West who have sought to denigrate the effort as a way to diminish U.S. power.

Today, those efforts have largely failed. A new generation of European leaders has no interest in humiliating the U.S. and understands the danger of a chaotic Iraq. Al Qaeda has been nearly destroyed as a fighting force in Iraq and has lost support in the Arab Street with its brutality against Iraq's Sunni Arabs. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Sunni states are belatedly coming to terms with the new Iraq as they conclude that the U.S. won't leave in defeat.

The Iraqi government is also at last beginning to meet its most important political commitments. Yesterday, Iraq's presidency council agreed to a law on provincial elections to go forward after a month's delay. The central government has passed a budget, approved a detainee amnesty, enlisted 425,000 men in its security forces and increased oil production to 2.4 million barrels a day while funneling $100 million a year to its provinces. This is happening while the number of daily insurgent attacks has been cut by about two-thirds, with commensurate declines in civilian and military casualties.

Where do we go from here? Iraq's transition to self-government remains fragile enough that U.S. forces will need to remain there in some numbers for years to come. The two countries will have to strike a long-term U.S.-Iraq military agreement, which would serve the interests of both countries. For Iraq, it would show America's continuing commitment in a rough neighborhood. And for the U.S., it would make the job of containing Iran easier. President Bush can best serve his Presidential successor by leaving enough troops on the ground to give him or her some strategic flexibility.

It is therefore unfortunate, and dangerous, that both Democratic candidates have backed themselves into a corner by endorsing rapid withdrawal from Iraq. In a speech yesterday in North Carolina, Barack Obama called for an almost complete U.S. withdrawal in 16 months. He continues to endorse the illusion that defeat in Iraq will help us prevail in Afghanistan; the opposite is closer to the truth. We will never maintain the support, either at home or abroad, to prevail in Afghanistan if we show we can be driven from the more vital strategic prize of Iraq.

* * *
In our March 18, 2003 editorial1 on the eve of Iraq's liberation, we supported the war while noting that "toppling Saddam is a long-term undertaking" and "the U.S. has never been good at nation-building." We wish we had been wrong on both counts, but our view has always been that nations shouldn't begin wars they don't intend to win. And newspapers don't endorse wars only to walk away when the fighting gets difficult. The U.S. sacrifice in Iraq has been honorable, our soldiers have fought superbly, and the best way -- the only way -- to honor both is to leave Iraq in victory.



Good commentary. 

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2008, 08:41:55 AM »
yes, it was good we toppled a dictator.

were 4,000 american lives and 30k+ injuries worth making life better for 23 mil iraqis?

I'd say No.

was it worth the cost to control their oil and keep dollar in play and build bases?

This is a good point, but why dwell on it. Fact of the matter is that we're still there. Do you want to leave now and pull out while leaving a breeding ground for AQI and the other pricks to run wild and plot attacks against us and Europe?

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 08:44:29 AM »
This is a good point, but why dwell on it. Fact of the matter is that we're still there. Do you want to leave now and pull out while leaving a breeding ground for AQI and the other pricks to run wild and plot attacks against us and Europe?

this thread attempted to justify our presence.
IMO, no american life was worth losing for this cause.

of course, now that we're there, let's milk the bitch, build bases, and skullfvck the region, I'm all for that, as are most, but don't have the courage to admit it.

I think we shouild stay in iraq forever - BUT - I think we should be safe on bases guarding pipelines.  Iraqi forces should be dealing with their gang violence.

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2008, 08:44:39 AM »
Bush defined the US's response to the 9/11 attacks so broad that Iraq could be included in his military response.

Any country that supports or uses terrorist tactics became fair game for attack.  Of course that technically includes the USA (Iran Contra Affair) but who's counting?

Frankly, I'm a little tired of the celebrations of Iraq's elections.  I don't care.  Elections aren't getting the political work done.

Quote
No one should forget that the invasion toppled a dictator who had already terrorized the region and would sooner or later have threatened American interests. This by itself was no small achievement. Saddam's trial was a teaching moment for that part of the Arab world that used to cheer him; his hanging, however crudely carried out, was a warning to dictators everywhere.
Oh yeah, Iraq has always wanted to take down the USA.  Hussein was just waiting for the right moment to attack us or our interests.

What utter bullshit this is.

Except for an illegal preventive attack, the deaths of tens of thousands of people, the waste of hundreds of billions of dollars, Iraq is a success.

Thank god Bush took down that screaming military meteor (aka Iraq) on collision course with the USA.  He saved us.


headhuntersix

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 08:49:19 AM »
Decker...I will concide some of  ur points but what now.....

Bennyblanco u couldn't hold this guy's jock.....
L

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2008, 08:49:52 AM »
I see in the article that Iraq has increased oil production to 2.4 million barrells a day.  This was supposed to help fund the war for their own liberty.

We are stealing from our childrens social security accounts and borrowing billions from china to run this thing.  When will we see some benefits.   Oil prices are dropping but thats because the oil industry decides when they will increase or decrease production to manipulate prices....this is an election year and cheney and bush are oil men so as always we see a manipulation again.

How about taking some of that money Iraq is getting and apply it to the national debt so we dont collapse, that would be nice...

headhuntersix

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2008, 09:00:57 AM »
The war is not the direct cause...however I'm sure some of that money would have been used to counter the effects of the housing collapse. I wouldn't tie our current total economic problem to the war. Trump wants to issue a one year 14% tax on all millionaires over a certain income level. His plan would pay the debt off in 1 year.....I'm just parroting the basics.

The war was pitched where Iraqi oil would pay for the war and I guess would have worked if there had never been an insurgency. If they had 500,000 troops on the ground and not totally broken up the police and military then that could have worked. In any event we are there and need to worry about moving forward.
L

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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2008, 09:09:08 AM »
Decker...I will concide some of  ur points but what now.....

Bennyblanco u couldn't hold this guy's jock.....
The Iraq government is in place.  The US can start bringing home troops right away.  Financial incentives can remain in effect but nothing stokes action quite like the idea of self-preservation.

Al Qaeda's presence in Iraq is miniscule.  I don't see that as the problem.  The natural result of a US withdrawal would be that the Shia majority would run the show...to the detriment of the Sunnis.  That's unfortunate.


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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2008, 09:12:15 AM »
Bennyblanco u couldn't hold this guy's jock.....
Since you are such a big fan, I'll let you fondle hold it for me.  :)
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Re: America and Iraq
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2008, 09:18:47 AM »
The Iraq government is in place.  The US can start bringing home troops right away.  Financial incentives can remain in effect but nothing stokes action quite like the idea of self-preservation.

Al Qaeda's presence in Iraq is miniscule.  I don't see that as the problem.  The natural result of a US withdrawal would be that the Shia majority would run the show...to the detriment of the Sunnis.  That's unfortunate.






Exactly.   It seems as if the US is looking for a perfect way to exit so that calm takes place.  This is where they are in error.      You have to expect huge problems if we pull back at all. Theres no way to do this without looking like we won to the worlds nations.    We are seen as occupiers by the world and bush and company will just have to accept that fact.
Indeed bush will leave office and leave the hard work to the next president....hoping to take pressure off of himself.

There is no right time to do this and there is no right way.   All these religious groups will never forget what has happened and chaos will be there for another 100 years easily.