Why do all the Pros have huge mid sections?

[Fatpanda]

Yes, Nasser El Synthol helped to usher in the pregnant belly. 

His use of gh and slin was always blamed for his huge bloated belly.

However, if any of you f@cktards want to do one your 'google searches' you will find that gh and slin actually promote weight loss and reduces abdominal adipose tissue.

Yes retards, Nasser had an horrendous pregnant belly.  It was caused by his obsessive eating habits and not his drug addictions to roids, gh, slin etc!

PS...This new book of Nasser's...still no mention of his treatment of his spouse...utterly disgusting and violent human being...Yes, violence against women is reprehensible!

yes as you can clearly see for sheriefs post nasser has a huge gut 

[m8]

yes as you can clearly see for sheriefs post nasser has a huge gut 

[Fatpanda]

looks fine to me.

if you want to see a gut look for jp faux or kovacs or palumbo or the keg

[Van_Bilderass]

gh does have ugly sides for definate though i.e. bone growth - as you can see from cutlers jaw, cormiers skull, ronnies skull, dexters skull, etc

If you look at Cormier's skull you see a mushroom shape. The are muscles on the side of the skull there. IMO it's mostly the muscles that are swollen from the drugs. It's kind of hard to say for sure if the heads (the actual skull) have really grown or if it's bloat.

no not all of them.. here are 2 examples with good midsection size for their over all size!!

Take the guys with no guts, they have fairly long midsections. This type of structure doesn't get the distention as easily. Lee Priest is another example. Dorian and Ronnie had comparatively longer legs vs torso.

[Fatpanda]

If you look at Cormier's skull you see a mushroom shape. The are muscles on the side of the skull there. IMO it's mostly the muscles that are swollen from the drugs. It's kind of hard to say for sure if the heads (the actual skull) have really grown or if it's bloat.

Take the guys with no guts, they have fairly long midsections. This type of structure doesn't get the distention as easily. Lee Priest is another example. Dorian and Ronnie had comparatively longer legs vs torso.

lee priest only takes 200mg of deca a week + 1 nolva - no wonder he doesn't have a gut 

[Sherief Shalaby]

looks fine to me.

if you want to see a gut look for jp faux or kovacs or palumbo or the keg

yes FT.. also the bloated guy who won the olympia in 97 with one arm

[Sherief Shalaby]

If you look at Cormier's skull you see a mushroom shape. The are muscles on the side of the skull there. IMO it's mostly the muscles that are swollen from the drugs. It's kind of hard to say for sure if the heads (the actual skull) have really grown or if it's bloat.

Take the guys with no guts, they have fairly long midsections. This type of structure doesn't get the distention as easily. Lee Priest is another example. Dorian and Ronnie had comparatively longer legs vs torso.

sure ronnie's lower body is tall for his upper body.. but i believe dorian is well proportioned..

[Van_Bilderass]

sure ronnie's lower body is tall for his upper body.. but i believe dorian is well proportioned..

There's nothing wrong with having long legs. It's more aesthetic than the converse IMO. Dorian's skeletal structure was great.

[seste]

You need to get to very high doses of slin to even get near to any gh gut,if you aren't pro by then you should stop what you doing 

I've using slin in moderate doses and it's a great muscle builder with gh and test

[SaltShaker]

Just trying to understand the cause?

unprotected sex

[drkaje]

I didn't say steroids are the cause. Before GH became widely used there was the term "roid belly". It does contribute and specific products, like some orals, cause distention in some users. If it's true Coleman does 10 Anadrols leading up to the Olympia (like someone here said) then it's likely contributing the the distention we saw in him IMO. Kamali said Wolf looked like he was using tons of Anadrol while being "trained" by Chad.

Hopefully no one reading my posts thinks I'm saying GH and insulin don't cause distention. That's not it, I'm saying we don't know how much organ growth is contributing to the problem.

You are getting your terms and facts mixed up. GH does NOT cause increased insulin sensitivity. It does the opposite and adding insulin only makes it worse. High dose GH causes such poor insulin sensitivity that some must add extra insulin. So yes, a pro can have poor sensitivity just like a typical fatass. Poor sensitivity can actually help you reduce subq fat since the fat is less sensitive to insulin. The fat burning effect is related to the fact that GH causes insulin resistance. (this is a longer topic that I'm not getting into now).

You're sort of confused. It increases insulin sensitivity with long term use. Look up some endocrinology journal articles on it. In addition, IGF1 definitely increases insulin sensitivity. We already know hGH causes the liver to increase production of IGF1.

Discussing these things on a non-stupid manner is fun but I still feel it's one of those topics where the answer doesn't really matter. 

[Fatpanda]

how about igf-1 and igf-2?

isn't their loads of  igf receptors in the intestines ? ( yes i know they are everywhere in the body, but there is a high concentration in the intestines)

gh by itself increases igf-1+2, however gh+ insulin increases it much higher,

this could lead to possible gut, and could also explain why low dosages of gh and/or insulin can lead to no gut while high dosages of either can lead to a gut.



low gh = reduced VAT minimum to no signs of organ growth ( certainly little muscle growth in studies) + slightly increased levels of igf-1&2

high gh = reduced VAT +  increase in organ growth ( some muscle gain) + higher levels of igf -1&2

add insulin to the above 2 senarios = increases VAT and igf-1&2.

thoughts ?

[Fatpanda]

some other thoughts i have had.

look at the techniques and timing of the gh and insulin.

as far as i know chad has his athletes take gh every day then only use insulin 1 day a week, and he has them mega dose all day long. He also has them carb up on 800-1000g of carbs throughout that day.

This mega dose of insulin + the gh already in the system = lots of igf-1&2 all day long. Also the massive amounts of food taken in that day would stimulate increased intestine muscle work + blood flow to the area all day long. This basically takes the gut enlarging igf-1&2 directly to the place it causes most damage (gut) all day long.

milos protocol is different, he has his guys take gh every day with insulin only around the workouts where the blood is mostly in the major muscles - so the igf-1&2 goes to the muscles we want to grown. Yes their will be some blood flow to the intestines too, but it will only be a fraction of chads protocol, and for a much shorter duration.

in my opinion chads guys have had the gut problem where as milos's guys haven't. I know this is just my random thought but again it makes sense to me. Wolf is the most recent example of milos vs chads protocols, and he had no gut with milos then recently it looks bigger. time will tell how big it gets.

thoughts ?

[drkaje]

No one's going to do a study on drug users because of the side effects and increased cancer risks associated with gh use/abuse.

Lower doses don't seem to increase weight but definitely make people leaner. Short term gh seems to directly decrease insulin sensitivity but indirectly increase it through liver production of IGF1. Long term use increases insulin sensitivity directly and indirectly. That's why Van_Pilsnerass is sort of right too. It's just doubtful that the typical user is only doing the drugs short term and with any moderation. Either steroids or their effects are addictive to some and we also know there are a lot of people who are never 'off'.

I doubt anyone will ever do a great study double blind study on bodybuilders with follow-up evaluations of the same people at specific intervals. It would be pretty expensive, take a long time, be dangerous and have no medical benefit because the results wouldn't have any effect on the culture. By "effect" I mean specifically mean decrease use.

I personally feel it would be great if someone studied and came up with definitive, safe, peer reviewed guidelines for off-label and/or recreational/professional drug use. It'll probably never happen but I still feel it would create a bigger safety margin for people who are going to use anyways.

[io856]

I personally feel it would be great if someone studied and came up with definitive, safe, peer reviewed guidelines for off-label and/or recreational/professional drug use. It'll probably never happen but I still feel it would create a bigger safety margin for people who are going to use anyways.

Nobody would listen to that garbage anyway

[drkaje]

Nobody would listen to that garbage anyway

You're probably right.

[Heywood]

unprotected sex

True, pregnancy would tend to make the stomach protrude.

[drkaje]

True, pregnancy would tend to make the stomach protrude.

Please tell me this isn't going to end up being another thread about male butt sex.

Even if it's a lie.

[Van_Bilderass]

Short term gh seems to directly decrease insulin sensitivity but indirectly increase it through liver production of IGF1. Long term use increases insulin sensitivity directly and indirectly. That's why Van_Pilsnerass is sort of right too.

Even long term studies (like 2-4 years) always make the point that sensitivity is worsened in some, so monitoring of BG is important. This is with doses that only bring hGH and IGF-1 to normal levels. Bodybuilders basically always use doses above these.

The fat burning effect is tied to the reduction in insulin sensitivity, which is why I think you're wrong about initially worsening and then increasing sensitivity over the long term. If this were true then the fat burning effect would decrease over time too.

The increase in free fatty acids by GH is what causes insulin resistance:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/1455

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/12/5813


Is 6 months long enough for you?

GH therapy resulted in impaired insulin-stimulated glucose uptake at 1 wk (-52%; P = 0.008) and 6 months (-39%; P = 0.008), which correlated with deterioration of glucose tolerance (r = -0.481; P = 0.003). The decrease in glucose uptake was associated with an increase in lipid oxidation at 1 wk (60%; P = 0.008) and 6 months (60%; P = 0.008) and a concomitant decrease in glucose oxidation. The deterioration of glucose metabolism during GH therapy also correlated with the enhanced rate of lipid oxidation (r = -0.508; P = 0.0002). In addition, there was a shift toward more glycolytic type II fibers during GH therapy.

In conclusion, replacement therapy with a low-dose GH in GH-deficient adult subjects is associated with a sustained deterioration of glucose metabolism as a consequence of the lipolytic effect of GH, resulting in enhanced oxidation of lipid substrates. Also, a shift toward more insulin-resistant type II X fibers is seen in muscle. Glucose metabolism should be carefully monitored during long-term GH replacement therapy.

To be fair, that paper does acknowledge that other studies show a return to baseline wrt insulin sensitivity (not increased sensitivity but return to baseline) over time but finishes with this:

It is thus important to monitor glucose tolerance during long-term treatment with even moderate doses of GH.

[timfogarty]

gh does have ugly sides for definate though i.e. bone growth - as you can see from cutlers jaw, cormiers skull, ronnies skull, dexters skull, etc

you mean cartilage, not bone.   gh can definitely cause cartilage growth, its called acromegaly

[Fatpanda]

you mean cartilage, not bone.   gh can definitely cause cartilage growth, its called acromegaly

yes i do, no need to get shirty pointing out the obvious.

now about those ufo's 

[timfogarty]

now about those ufo's 

distant car headlights bouncing off of inversion layers in the atmosphere

[Fatpanda]

distant car headlights bouncing off of inversion layers in the atmosphere

  you're one of 'them' 

[drkaje]

Even long term studies (like 2-4 years) always make the point that sensitivity is worsened in some, so monitoring of BG is important. This is with doses that only bring hGH and IGF-1 to normal levels. Bodybuilders basically always use doses above these.

The fat burning effect is tied to the reduction in insulin sensitivity, which is why I think you're wrong about initially worsening and then increasing sensitivity over the long term. If this were true then the fat burning effect would decrease over time too.

The increase in free fatty acids by GH is what causes insulin resistance:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/1455

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/12/5813




Is 6 months long enough for you?

To be fair, that paper does acknowledge that other studies show a return to baseline wrt insulin sensitivity (not increased sensitivity but return to baseline) over time but finishes with this:

Thanks!!

I'll read those later tonight. Being better informed is a good thing. It's hard getting a consensus because many of the studies are treating patients with various endocrine conditions going on.

"Just like iron sharpens iron, one man must sharpen another".

[Cleanest Natural]

There's nothing wrong with having long legs. It's more aesthetic than the converse IMO. Dorian's skeletal structure was great.

agreed
that fucker had an awesome frame