Author Topic: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.  (Read 42146 times)

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #325 on: June 04, 2009, 10:17:27 AM »

Life is about living with your choices and choosing to have unprotected sex sometimes results in pregnancy and women AND men need to deal with it and not murder a child because they can't handle their life change.  GROW THE FUCK UP AND STOP WHINING!

Not all pregnancies are the result of unprotected sex. And as far as Dr Tiller is concerned, do you really believe a late term abortion is about remedying a broken condom situation or a birth control pill taken at the wrong time of day?
A couple seeking the termination of a pregnancy late term pregnancy do so for medical reasons, ...a point lost on the so-called pro-lifers. You can call it murder if you want, but I will never see a fetus as having more value than a woman's life.

Quote
Other then that however, I'm not for making abortion illegal.

At least you still have a few brain cells working.  :)
w

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #326 on: June 04, 2009, 10:23:34 AM »
just depends i guess as birth control becomes more and more accesible to men and women the use of abortions will shrink to what extent iono...LOL in this case we went backwards...hey if they want to say they allow abortions for population control then fine but please dont use the guise that its b/c a women should be able to say what happens to her own body, thats just ignorant shit when she already decided to have unprotected sex in 99.99% of the cases that resulted in the pregnancy to begin with... ::)


By your argument, a smoker diagnosed with lung cancer shouldn't undergo surgery to remove it.
After all, s/he chose to smoke which resulted in a life form growing within them.

i hope you don't use Purell, ...that would be completely hypocritical on your part.  :P
w

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #327 on: June 04, 2009, 10:26:03 AM »
maybe you missed this:

as ive already stated straw electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks ive heard conflicting views...

you didnt answer the question so you feel that abortions are ok up to the point of birth? a baby isnt alive until it is born? theres a logical difference between a baby 10 mins before birth and 10 mins after?

again the bottom line is the point at which life begins needs to be defined logically like ive stated and pushed you and others to define for yourself im not saying my logic is right as compared to others but it is sound logic as compared to yours which is full of false logic which again is why i have been able to logically nullify any example you have given me...

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #328 on: June 04, 2009, 10:28:43 AM »
By your argument, a smoker diagnosed with lung cancer shouldn't undergo surgery to remove it.
After all, s/he chose to smoke which resulted in a life form growing within them.

i hope you don't use Purell, ...that would be completely hypocritical on your part.  :P
LOL not at all a smoker undergoing surgery only effects HIM...a women getting an abortion effects another living being... ::)

a tumor is hardly compareable to a fetus...electrical brain activity, cognitive ability, potential life etc...nice try though again USE LOGIC

you ever gonna stand up for that ignorant statement you made about a husband having a say and a guy who had a one night stand not?

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #329 on: June 04, 2009, 10:31:22 AM »
as ive already stated straw electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks ive heard conflicting views...

you didnt answer the question so you feel that abortions are ok up to the point of birth? a baby isnt alive until it is born? theres a logical difference between a baby 10 mins before birth and 10 mins after?

again the bottom line is the point at which life begins needs to be defined logically like ive stated and pushed you and others to define for yourself im not saying my logic is right as compared to others but it is sound logic as compared to yours which is full of false logic which again is why i have been able to logically nullify any example you have given me...

electrical activity is "thought" to start anywhere from 2-12 weeks?  Thought by whom?

is there a "brain" @ 2 weeks?

I've already given you my point of view on abortion.  Here is it yet again.

Here's my bottom line.  I'm OK with a woman doing anything she wants within the confines of our legal system.

I'm also for minding my own business and not pretending that someone else's life choices somehow involve me.

I'm for you doing the same thing too.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #330 on: June 04, 2009, 10:35:03 AM »
electrical activity is "thought" to start anywhere from 2-12 weeks?  Thought by whom?

is there a "brain" @ 2 weeks?

I've already given you my point of view on abortion.  Here is it yet again.

ill let you do some research on it, its pretty apparent that you never really have in any serious fashion and your beliefs are soley opinion based...when i get home tonight if you still want some or havent found any ill see if i can look some up for you

again your belief is chalked full of false logic which opens the door to many other possibilities which you are against but are ok with using that logic in this sense.

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #331 on: June 04, 2009, 10:50:39 AM »
ill let you do some research on it, its pretty apparent that you never really have in any serious fashion and your beliefs are soley opinion based...when i get home tonight if you still want some or havent found any ill see if i can look some up for you

again your belief is chalked full of false logic which opens the door to many other possibilities which you are against but are ok with using that logic in this sense.

my beliefs?

You're the one who wrote "electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks"

again - thought by whom?  Why should I care what "they" think.

is there a brain @ 2 weeks?

I've told you repeatedly that I'm for women doing whatever they choose within our legal system and I'm for me and you minding our own business and not pretending that someone elses personal health issues involve us.  What is it about that simple statement that you can't understand?

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #332 on: June 04, 2009, 11:00:47 AM »
my beliefs?

You're the one who wrote "electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks"

again - thought by whom?  Why should I care what "they" think.

is there a brain @ 2 weeks?

I've told you repeatedly that I'm for women doing whatever they choose within our legal system and I'm for me and you minding our own business and not pretending that someone elses personal health issues involve us.  What is it about that simple statement that you can't understand?
again you can do some research if you dont want to or dont have the time i guess youll have to wait until i find the time there are conflicting views as to when electrical activity starts in the brain from everybody medical doctors more importantly...you should care b/c its relevant to this conversation as it could determine when life begins and as we know unjustified termination of life is MURDER...

yes your beliefs that you dont know when life begins, or it begins when they are in your contacts book, or when they can get a mortgage, sustain their own life, etc...these beliefs logically leave the door open to multiple actions which you are against but you are ok with applying that logic on this issue and not on others....LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD thats why its logical...

LOL b/c they arent simply her health issues when she is pregnant they involve 2 living beings what part of that dont you understand?

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #333 on: June 04, 2009, 11:03:40 AM »
LOL not at all a smoker undergoing surgery only effects HIM...a women getting an abortion effects another living being... ::)

No, a smoker undergoing surgery affects (spelled with an 'A') notonly himself, but also the cancerous tumor which is a living thing. a living thing with the potential to harm it's host if not excised. Much like the parasite that is the fetus.

Quote
a tumor is hardly compareable to a fetus...electrical brain activity, cognitive ability, potential life etc...nice try though again USE LOGIC

Are you saying there is no electrical activity within the cells of cancerous tumors?

Quote
you ever gonna stand up for that ignorant statement you made about a husband having a say and a guy who had a one night stand not?

I thought it was too obvious to have to pont out, ...even to you.
The difference is, in the case of a husband, you have a legal entity that has become one.
w

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #334 on: June 04, 2009, 11:10:02 AM »
again you can do some research if you dont want to or dont have the time i guess youll have to wait until i find the time there are conflicting views as to when electrical activity starts in the brain from everybody medical doctors more importantly...you should care b/c its relevant to this conversation as it could determine when life begins and as we know unjustified termination of life is MURDER...

yes your beliefs that you dont know when life begins, or it begins when they are in your contacts book, or when they can get a mortgage, sustain their own life, etc...these beliefs logically leave the door open to multiple actions which you are against but you are ok with applying that logic on this issue and not on others....LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD thats why its logical...

LOL b/c they arent simply her health issues when she is pregnant they involve 2 living beings what part of that dont you understand?

is there a brain @ 2 weeks?

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #335 on: June 04, 2009, 11:10:34 AM »
No, a smoker undergoing surgery affects (spelled with an 'A') notonly himself, but also the cancerous tumor which is a living thing. a living thing with the potential to harm it's host if not excised. Much like the parasite that is the fetus.

Are you saying there is no electrical activity within the cells of cancerous tumors?

I thought it was too obvious to have to pont out, ...even to you.
The difference is, in the case of a husband, you have a legal entity that has become one.
LOL man you guys really need to go take a basic level college logic class b/c your logic is freaking horrible...

as stated earlier if the mothers health is at risk then abortion is a viable option

i said electrical activity in the BRAINNNNNN when did tumors develop brains, way to not address any other of my points

the husband has legal entity in marriage he is no more legally the father of the unborn fetus then the man who had a one night stand jag...again USE LOGIC your reasoning if false...

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #336 on: June 04, 2009, 11:14:24 AM »
according to Wiki: Brain activity begins at approximately 25 weeks of gestation, shortly before the beginning of the third trimester.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_does_a_fetus_have_brain_activity

who are the people you're talking about who think there is a brain @ 2 weeks?

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #337 on: June 04, 2009, 11:14:38 AM »
is there a brain @ 2 weeks?
the development of the brain begins around 2 or 3 weeks again conflicting views...you will undoubtedly say that its not a fully developed brain so it doesnt count logically leaving the door open to infantcide as well as justifiable homocide as infants brains arent developed and the brain itself never stops developing...again do some research straw and base your belief off facts instead of simply opinion or you will be made to look like a fool everytime you discuss this topic with someone who has.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #338 on: June 04, 2009, 11:18:42 AM »
according to Wiki: Brain activity begins at approximately 25 weeks of gestation, shortly before the beginning of the third trimester.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_does_a_fetus_have_brain_activity

who are the people you're talking about who think there is a brain @ 2 weeks?
LOL first of all that doesnt say who its from
2nd it doesnt define brain activity...

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #339 on: June 04, 2009, 11:22:41 AM »
you're just passing along false pro-life talking points. 

Who'da Thunk it?

------------------------------------------------------------------
The assertion is made over and over again that "fetal brain activity" has been observed or "fetal brain waves" have been measured at 40, 43, or 45 days, or at 6 weeks after fertilization. You can find the claim in "pro-life" and sometimes even nonmedical pro-choice literature. Sometimes a reference is cited, but most often not. This false information has passed into the general understanding about fetal development and is simply stated as fact. It is however a factoid instead, which is the name for a statement repeated often enough that people accept it as truth, though it's not.

Sykes digs through the generations of pamphlets citing other pamphlets to find the original science on which the factoid is based, and comes up with a cite from a 1964 AMA convention speech transcript (not a research paper at all) published in the JAMA arguing for brain function rather than heart function to determine cessation of life, and a 1982 letter (not a peer-reviewed paper) published in the NEJM. As Sykes says, "no original research is being described here, which makes it dishonest and misleading to quote it as the source of a claim".

The quotes used by 'pro-lifers', when laid out in formal cite form, certainly do look impressive to anyone not in the habit or reading the original paper to evaluate a scientist's conclusions:

At only 40 days after fertilization electrical waves as measured by the EEG can be recorded from the baby's brain, indicating brain functioning47, 48.
47. Hamlin, H. (1964), "Life or Death by EEG," Journal of the American Medical Association, October 12, 113.

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception.

J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
Sykes dissects the misuse of these citations (both should strictly mention the status as convention proceedings/letters rather than research papers), showing that both of these opinion pieces incorrectly summarise science that is now either discredited or obsolete (and always refers to "electrical activity" rather than "brain waves"), then goes on to detail what medical science actually does show about the development of a functioning human brain:

When people, including physicians, talk about "brain waves" and "brain activity" they are referring to organized activity in the cortex. While no embryo or fetus has ever been found to have "brain waves," extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies. A very good summary of their findings can be found in Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus," a review article (often cited by "pro-lifers" writing about fetal pain, but not about brain development) by K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM:

"Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks."

here's the link where you can find all the references:  http://tigtogblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/fetal-brain-development-myths-and.html

please do us all a favor and stop passing along lies.  If you want to believe them that's your perogative but please spare the rest of us. 

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #340 on: June 04, 2009, 11:27:49 AM »
you're just passing along false pro-life talking points. 

Who'da Thunk it?

------------------------------------------------------------------
The assertion is made over and over again that "fetal brain activity" has been observed or "fetal brain waves" have been measured at 40, 43, or 45 days, or at 6 weeks after fertilization. You can find the claim in "pro-life" and sometimes even nonmedical pro-choice literature. Sometimes a reference is cited, but most often not. This false information has passed into the general understanding about fetal development and is simply stated as fact. It is however a factoid instead, which is the name for a statement repeated often enough that people accept it as truth, though it's not.

Sykes digs through the generations of pamphlets citing other pamphlets to find the original science on which the factoid is based, and comes up with a cite from a 1964 AMA convention speech transcript (not a research paper at all) published in the JAMA arguing for brain function rather than heart function to determine cessation of life, and a 1982 letter (not a peer-reviewed paper) published in the NEJM. As Sykes says, "no original research is being described here, which makes it dishonest and misleading to quote it as the source of a claim".

The quotes used by 'pro-lifers', when laid out in formal cite form, certainly do look impressive to anyone not in the habit or reading the original paper to evaluate a scientist's conclusions:

At only 40 days after fertilization electrical waves as measured by the EEG can be recorded from the baby's brain, indicating brain functioning47, 48.
47. Hamlin, H. (1964), "Life or Death by EEG," Journal of the American Medical Association, October 12, 113.

Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception.

J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
Sykes dissects the misuse of these citations (both should strictly mention the status as convention proceedings/letters rather than research papers), showing that both of these opinion pieces incorrectly summarise science that is now either discredited or obsolete (and always refers to "electrical activity" rather than "brain waves"), then goes on to detail what medical science actually does show about the development of a functioning human brain:

When people, including physicians, talk about "brain waves" and "brain activity" they are referring to organized activity in the cortex. While no embryo or fetus has ever been found to have "brain waves," extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies. A very good summary of their findings can be found in Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus," a review article (often cited by "pro-lifers" writing about fetal pain, but not about brain development) by K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM:

"Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks."

not at all like i said conflicting view...ill read this and like i said post some shit when i get a chance...if you want to use that as a reasoning for your stance straw then i support your stance i may not believe in it but at least you have some logical basis for believing that abortions befor 20-27 weeks are ok...YOU UNDERSTAND like i said im not saying im right and your wrong all i was saying is that your previous views where not logical... ;D i hope youve finally come to understand

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #341 on: June 04, 2009, 11:29:14 AM »
LOL man you guys really need to go take a basic level college logic class b/c your logic is freaking horrible...

as stated earlier if the mothers health is at risk then abortion is a viable option

i said electrical activity in the BRAINNNNNN when did tumors develop brains, way to not address any other of my points

I don't know, ...I'm sure we'll all have the answer to that as soon as you post something half sensible.  ;D

Quote
the husband has legal entity in marriage he is no more legally the father of the unborn fetus then the man who had a one night stand jag...again USE LOGIC your reasoning if false...

ummm, ...that's where you're wrong. A husband, under the law is automatically deemed to be the father,
...unless proof is furnished that shows otherwise, ...and then sometimes not even then.  :-\
w

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #342 on: June 04, 2009, 11:38:10 AM »
I don't know, ...I'm sure we'll all have the answer to that as soon as you post something half sensible.  ;D

ummm, ...that's where you're wrong. A husband, under the law is automatically deemed to be the father,
...unless proof is furnished that shows otherwise, ...and then sometimes not even then.  :-\
so what? the fathers opinion doesnt matter? being automatically ASSumed to be the father doesnt make him any less responsible for the conception of that child then a person who had a one night stand...your logic is horrible jag

you state that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her body but then make an exception if shes married? as far as i know its still her body...again LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD THATS WHY ITS LOGICAL  :o goodness gracious you are using your logic to apply to one situation but not another CREATING FALSE LOGIC

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41015
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #343 on: June 04, 2009, 11:40:18 AM »
not at all like i said conflicting view...ill read this and like i said post some shit when i get a chance...if you want to use that as a reasoning for your stance straw then i support your stance i may not believe in it but at least you have some logical basis for believing that abortions befor 20-27 weeks are ok...YOU UNDERSTAND like i said im not saying im right and your wrong all i was saying is that your previous views where not logical... ;D i hope youve finally come to understand

try reading it first

any conflict you find in your view (or the views of your un-named sources) will be with reality.

like i've said how many times now (4 I think) my view is that women should be free to do whatever is legal and you and I should mind our own business

my logic was based on what is legal.   My other comments to you were half jokes (i.e. you're not alive until you're in my address book, etc..)

when you find that your point of view is based on bad science I hope you will do the right thing and concede you were wrong or at the very least stop passing along false information.  You can still believe whatever you want by stop passing around false talking points


24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24455
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #344 on: June 04, 2009, 11:44:00 AM »
so what? the fathers opinion doesnt matter? being automatically ASSumed to be the father doesnt make him any less responsible for the conception of that child then a person who had a one night stand...your logic is horrible jag

Do you simply argue just for the sake of being argumentative?
Reread your statement.

Quote
you state that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her body but then make an exception if shes married? as far as i know its still her body...again LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD THATS WHY ITS LOGICAL  :o goodness gracious you are using your logic to apply to one situation but not another CREATING FALSE LOGIC

I'm of the opinion that married folks should make decisions jointly.
Therefore, I'd give a husband more input into decision making processes than a one night stand.
w

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #345 on: June 04, 2009, 11:44:18 AM »
try reading it first

any conflict you find in your view (or the views of your un-named sources) will be with reality.

like i've said how many times now (4 I think) my view is that women should be free to do whatever is legal and you and I should mind our own business

my logic was based on what is legal.   My other comments to you were half jokes (i.e. you're not alive until you're in my address book, etc..)

when you find that your point of view is based on bad science I hope you will do the right thing and admit concede you were wrong or at the very least stop passing along false information.  You can still believe whatever you want by stop passing around false talking points


LOL ill find some straw dont worry

your logic on the legal aspect is pretty sound but as i pointed out i dont want to hear you bitch about it if its overturned or anything else that you disagree with thats legal, b/c according to your logic legality makes it right...

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #346 on: June 04, 2009, 11:50:19 AM »
Do you simply argue just for the sake of being argumentative?
Reread your statement.

I'm of the opinion that married folks should make decisions jointly.
Therefore, I'd give a husband more input into decision making processes than a one night stand.
i argue b/c your logic is horrible

i can understand that but your logic for supporting an abortion is that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her own body correct?

getting married doesnt equate to ownership of her body or does it? i understand what your saying but by your logic for abortion the husband has no more say as the guy who had a one night stand...revise your logic

tu_holmes

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15922
  • Robot
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #347 on: June 04, 2009, 11:54:45 AM »
getting married doesnt equate to ownership of her body or does it? i understand what your saying but by your logic for abortion the husband has no more say as the guy who had a one night stand...revise your logic

I wish, then I could have beat her ass when she got out of line.

;D

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #348 on: June 04, 2009, 11:57:20 AM »
I wish, then I could have beat her ass when she got out of line.

;D
hahahahhaha lol ok im ok with abortion if i can back hand her at will...
































just j/k jag  ;)

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 63786
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Abortion doctor shot to death in church.
« Reply #349 on: June 04, 2009, 11:57:56 AM »
I have... still pro-abortion.

What are you saying?

That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."