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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Pet shop boys on May 23, 2013, 07:16:53 AM
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My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it.... some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc injured area.......
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
What do you think ?
WoooSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH
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Find a licensed ART specialist in your area. Best decision I ever made a couple years ago with a shoulder issue.
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I'm not going to say anything bad about chiropractors because Chiro Flex is a member of the Y and I don't want to hurt his feelings.
Them lot are quacks man
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Pseudoscience bullshit with roots in new age quackery. Some are better than others but most do not discuss the new age/occult origin of chiropractic "medicine". Get a massage from a licensed massage therapist.
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Pseudoscience bullshit with roots in new age quackery. Some are better than others but most do not discuss the new age/occult origin of chiropractic "medicine". Get a message from a licensed message therapist.
A message? Like an email?
Where can I find a licensed email therapist, my yahoo acount is acting up lately.
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A message? Like an email?
Where can I find a licensed email therapist, my yahoo acount is acting up lately.
Caught it before you replied
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They seem ok on a rainy day.
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Wilk v. American Medical Association, 895 F.2d 352 (7th Cir. 1990), was a federal antitrust suit brought against the American Medical Association (AMA) and 10 co-defendants by chiropractor Chester A. Wilk, DC, and four co-plaintiffs. It resulted in a ruling against the AMA.
Contents [hide]
1 Case history
1.1 Pre-trial environment
1.2 The first trial
1.3 The second trial
1.4 Judge's findings in the second trial
2 Following the second trial
3 References
Case history [edit]
Pre-trial environment [edit]
Until 1983, the AMA held that it was unethical for medical doctors to associate with an "unscientific practitioner," and labeled chiropractic "an unscientific cult."[1]
Before 1980, Principle 3 of the AMA Principles of medical ethics stated: "A physician should practice a method of healing founded on a scientific basis; and he should not voluntarily professionally associate with anyone who violates this principle." In 1980 during a major revision of ethical rules (while the Wilk litigation was in progress), it replaced Principle 3, stating that a physician "shall be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical services." Also, up until 1974, the AMA had a Committee on quackery which challenged what it considered to be unscientific forms of healing. Wilk argued that this committee was established specifically to undermine chiropractic.
The first trial [edit]
In 1976, Chester Wilk and four other chiropractors sued the AMA, several nationwide healthcare associations, and several physicians for violations of sections 1 and 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act. The plaintiffs lost at the first trial in 1981, then obtained a new trial on appeal in 1983 because of improper jury instructions and admission of irrelevant and prejudicial evidence (Wilk v. American Medical Ass'n,735 F.2d 217, 7th Cir. 1983).
The second trial [edit]
In the second trial case the AMA had the burden of proof, needing to establish the validity of the boycott. The court recognized a "patient care defense," but imposed a difficult burden. The defendants had to show their concern could not have been adequately satisfied in a manner less restrictive of competition. So Wilk and later cases greatly limit the use of "quality of care" defense in boycott cases.
Just before the second trial, the plaintiffs dropped their demand for damages and sought only an injunction. Therefore, the resulting trial in May and June 1987 was a bench trial in which Judge Susan Getzendanner personally heard the evidence and made factual findings.
Judge's findings in the second trial [edit]
On September 25, 1987, Getzendanner issued her opinion that the AMA had violated Section 1, but not 2, of the Sherman Act, and that it had engaged in an unlawful conspiracy in restraint of trade "to contain and eliminate the chiropractic profession." (Wilk v. American Medical Ass'n, 671 F. Supp. 1465, N.D. Ill. 1987). She further opined that the "AMA had entered into a long history of illegal behavior". And, she then issued a permanent injunction against the AMA under Section 16 of the Clayton Act to prevent such future behavior. However, she exonerated the two other remaining defendants, the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals and the American College of Physicians, and dismissed them from the case.
Judge Getzendanner also went out of her way to make clear what she was not doing:
The plaintiffs clearly want more from the court. They want a judicial pronouncement that chiropractic is a valid, efficacious, even scientific health care service. I believe that the answer to that question can only be provided by a well designed, controlled, scientific study... No such study has ever been done. In the absence of such a study, the court is left to decide the issue on the basis of largely anecdotal evidence. I decline to pronounce chiropractic valid or invalid on anecdotal evidence.
However Judge Getzendanner went on:
The plaintiffs, however, point out that the anecdotal evidence in the record favors chiropractors. The patients who testified were helped by chiropractors and not by medical physicians. Dr. Per Freitag, a medical physician who associates with chiropractors, has observed that patients in one hospital who receive chiropractic treatment are released sooner than patients in another hospital in which he is on staff which does not allow chiropractors. Dr. John McMillan Mennell, M.D. testified in favor of chiropractic. Even the defendants' economic witness, Mr. Lynk, assumed that chiropractors outperformed medical physicians in the treatment of certain conditions and he believed that was a reasonable assumption. The defendants have offered some evidence as to the unscientific nature of chiropractic. The study of how the five original named plaintiffs diagnosed and actually treated patients with common symptoms was particularly impressive. This study demonstrated that the plaintiffs do not use common methods in treating common symptoms and that the treatment of patients appears to be undertaken on an ad hoc rather than on a scientific basis. And there was evidence of the use of cranial adjustments to cure cerebral palsy and other equally alarming practices by some chiropractors. I do not minimize the negative evidence. But most of the defense witnesses, surprisingly, appeared to be testifying for the plaintiffs. Taking into account all of the evidence, I conclude only that the AMA has failed to meet its burden on the issue of whether its concern for the scientific method in support of the boycott of the entire chiropractic profession was objectively reasonable throughout the entire period of the boycott. This finding is not and should not be construed as a judicial endorsement of chiropractic. The next element of the patient care defense is whether the AMA's concern about scientific method has been the dominant motivating factor in the defendants' promulgation of Principle 3 in the conduct undertaken and intended to implement Principle 3. The AMA has carried its burden on this issue. While there is some evidence that the Committee on Quackery and the AMA were motivated by economic concerns – there are too many references in the record to chiropractors as competitors to ignore – I am persuaded that the dominant factor was patient care and the AMA's subjective belief that chiropractic was not in the best interests of patients.
She concluded that the AMA had been too restrictive in its campaign:
The final question is whether this concern for scientific method in patient care could have been adequately satisfied in a manner less restrictive of competition. It would be a difficult task to persuade a court that a boycott and conspiracy designed to contain and eliminate a profession that was licensed in all fifty states at the time the Committee on Quackery disbanded was the only way to satisfy the AMA's concern for the use of scientific method in patient care. The AMA presented no evidence that a public education approach or any other less restrictive approach was beyond the ability or resources of the AMA or had been tried and failed. The AMA obviously was not successful in defeating the licensing of chiropractic on a state by state basis, but that failure does not mean that they had to resort to the highly restrictive means of the boycott. The AMA and other medical societies have managed to change America's health-related conduct by what appears to be good public relations work and there has been no proof that a similar campaign would not have been at least as effective as the boycott in educating consumers about chiropractic and the AMA's concern for scientific method. Based on these findings, I conclude that the AMA has failed to carry its burden of persuasion on the patient care defense.[1]
Following the second trial [edit]
Both sides cross-appealed, and the district court's decision was affirmed by the U.S. Court of Appeals on February 7, 1990 (Wilk v. American Medical Ass'n,895 F.2d 352, 7th Cir. 1990). In their opinion, the Appellate Court wrote "The court found the AMA failed to establish that throughout the relevant period (1966-1980) their (the AMA's) concern for scientific methods in patient care had been objectively reasonable". The AMA petitioned the U.S. Supreme Court three times, but each time the Court denied certiorari (on June 11, August 13, and November 26, 1990).[2][3] The Court grants certiorari only when a case presents a novel question of law, and the Wilk case was a straightforward application of the Sherman Act.
The AMA eliminated Principle 3 in 1980 during a major revision of ethical rules (while the Wilk litigation was in progress). Its replacement stated that a physician "shall be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical services." Thus, the AMA now permits medical doctors to refer patients to doctors of chiropractic for such manipulative therapy if the medical doctor believes it is in the best interests of the patients. As noted by Judge Getzendanner, the AMA also took credit during the Wilk litigation for forcing chiropractors to put their own field on a sounder theoretical footing.
Following a decade of litigation, the Seventh Circuit Court upheld the ruling by U.S. District Court Judge Susan Getzendanner that the AMA had engaged in a "lengthy, systematic, successful and unlawful boycott" designed to restrict cooperation between MDs and chiropractors in order to eliminate the profession of chiropractic.[4]
References [edit]
^ a b The Wilk Case
^ George McAndrews Files In Supreme Court Against JCAH. Dynamic Chiropractic, May 9, 1990, Volume 08, Issue 10
^ DR. CHESTER A. WILK, D.C., DR. JAMES W. BRYDEN, D.C., DR. PATRICIA B. ARTHUR, D.C., AND DR. MICHAEL D. PEDIGO, D.C., PLAINTIFFS-APPELLEES, CROSS-APPELLANTS, v. AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, DEFENDANT-APPELLANT, CROSS-APPELLEE. DR. CHESTER A. WILK, D.C., DR. JAMES W. BRYDEN, D.C., DR. PATRICIA B. ARTHUR, D.C., AND DR. MICHAEL B. PEDIGO, D.C., PLAINTIFFS-CROSS-APPELLANTS, V. AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, JOINT COMMISSION ON ACCREDITATION OF HOSPITALS, AMERICAN COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS AND AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ORTHOPAEDIC SURGEONS, DEFENDANTS-CROSS-APPELLEES, 895 F.2d 352 (7th Cir. 1990) LSU Law Center. We affirm the district court's finding that the AMA violated § 1 of the Sherman Act by conducting an illegal boycott of chiropractors, and the district court's decision to grant an injunction against the AMA., 1990.C07.41521 (UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT February 7, 1990).
^ "Statement of the American Chiropractic Association on the AMA Scope of Practice Partnership". 1990. Retrieved 12/01/07
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(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
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meltdown
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Chiro is a good dude. I'll look in to chiropractic medicine a little more. Strike my comments from the record.
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Not gonna try to convince people to "believe" in anything, or engage in pointless arguments. As far as I'm concerned, the evidence for what my profession does is so convincing that I don't need a "faith" to see what we do. Dont forget mainstream medicine's origins included blood-letting, and drilling holes in people's skulls to relieve evil spirits. There is plenty of peer reviewed literature being published monthly that backs what we do.
PS: you're an asshole Raymondo but still one of my favorites here :D
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Cheers mate, if I ever wanted someone to accidentally cause me permament spinal cord injury, I would want it to be you.
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Chiropractic done right is awesome. There r a lot of idiots. But I'm not sure that ratio is any higher or lower than idiot mds, idiot mechanics, idiot plumbers. As the saying goes....u know what they call a medical student that graduates the bottom of their class? An MD.
Chiropractic however does involve coordination and talent on the part of the doctor in order to adjust the patient well. Some are great..some not so good.
By the way, the premise of chiropractic is neither pseudoscience nor quackery.
It's roots are based upon the simple premise that nerves get impinged or inflamed and mobilizing the structures in that specific area can free the nerve or decrease the inflammation in that nerve or in the surrounding tissue. Nothing quacky about it.
There are spinoffs I will call them where many docs however have placed some crazy shit in their practices doing things hardly even related to chiropractic. My advice is if after the doc has thouroughly examined u and come up with a diagnosis, the doc cannot explain to u in a reasonable amount of time what he or she can do for u, and a reasonable amount of time I mean in just a few minutes, and if that explanation doesn't sound like it makes common sense, (example...wants to put crystals on u, wants to hang u upside down from a meat hook, wants to heal u with music or wutever the fuck then respectfully decline then look for another)
But the basic form of chiropractic works great.
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chiro is one of my favourite posters and knows about my experience with a chiropractor
the best i can say is there are probably good and bad ones
the one i went to tried to disable me for life
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Also, when I lived in Atlanta I got an adjustment by Dr Schmidt. The Prez of Life University the noted chiro college in Marietta that is... he gave me an adjustment that everyone who saw it said he was deliberately trying to hurt me. The freaking Prez. Two students and his own gay boyfriend took me aside afterwards and said that he should not have performed that and it looked as though he was trying to hurt me on purpose.
I have only seen another a couple times after that and that was before I found the ART specialist.
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Not gonna try to convince people to "believe" in anything, or engage in pointless arguments. As far as I'm concerned, the evidence for what my profession does is so convincing that I don't need a "faith" to see what we do. Dont forget mainstream medicine's origins included blood-letting, and drilling holes in people's skulls to relieve evil spirits. There is plenty of peer reviewed literature being published monthly that backs what we do.
PS: you're an asshole Raymondo but still one of my favorites here :D
Chiropractors have a place in healthcare. They provide a good service and should be respected as healthcare professionals.
That said, if you do have a ligament, muscle or tendon tear, you should probably go see an orthopedic surgeon for repair of that problem. Maybe Chiro can tell us whether there are other options via the use of chiropractors for these types of injuries. I am interested in knowing, as I probably have Labral tears on both shoulders from decades of wear and tear.
Chiropractors are doctors in their own discipline and should be respected as such. There are more Doctors now in healthcare than there were ever before. So keep in mind, that as a consumer, you have way more options.
Besides chiropractors, these are some other doctors you might have not heard of:
DPT: Doctorate of Physical Therapy
DNP: Doctorate of Nursing Practice
DPA: Doctorate of Physician Assistant
PharmD: Doctor of Pharmacy
DN: Doctorate in Nutrition
These are all REAL doctors that have gone to school (Undergrad & Grad level) for well over 8 years and had their own residencies, in most instances, to attain the degree that they have, which can be applied to the realm of healthcare.
Watch out for both Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants with Doctorates. Those two groups WILL be the future of primary care medicine. Statistics are all pointing in that direction.
Also, don't be surprised if more people visit their local chiropractor for help with back aches and pains, versus waiting months on in to see an orthopedist.
"1"
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BIG ACH is going to be a doctor, doesn't mean I'd trust him with my spine
Chiropractors have a place in healthcare. They provide a good service and should be respected as healthcare professionals.
That said, if you do have a ligament, muscle or tendon tear, you should probably go see an orthopedic surgeon for repair of that problem. Maybe Chiro can tell us whether there are other options via the use of chiropractors for these types of injuries. I am interested in knowing, as I probably have Labral tears on both shoulders from decades of wear and tear.
Chiropractors are doctors in their own discipline and should be respected as such. There are more Doctors now in healthcare than there were ever before. So keep in mind, that as a consumer, you have way more options.
Besides chiropractors, these are some other doctors you might have not heard of:
DPT: Doctorate of Physical Therapy
DNP: Doctorate of Nursing Practice
DPA: Doctorate of Physician Assistant
PharmD: Doctor of Pharmacy
DN: Doctorate in Nutrition
These are all REAL doctors that have gone to school (Undergrad & Grad level) for well over 8 years and had their own residencies, in most instances, to attain the degree that they have, which can be applied to the realm of healthcare.
Watch out for both Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants with Doctorates. Those two groups WILL be the future of primary care medicine. Statistics are all pointing in that direction.
Also, don't be surprised if more people visit their local chiropractor for help with back aches and pains, versus waiting months on in to see an orthopedist.
"1"
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chiro is one of my favourite posters and knows about my experience with a chiropractor
the best i can say is there are probably good and bad ones
the one i went to tried to disable me for life
exactly and I have seen a lot of this.
Here's something to think about.
Chiropractic is kind of like a a sport in the way that not only do u have to learn the motor skills of the sport...to be really good at it u also have to be in a sense...made for it...
In the same way that Michael Jordan was made for basketball but yet sucked completely at baseball.
He worked harder than everyone to learn his basketball skills but coupled with that it was his "being made to play basketball" which thrust him to greatness.
He prolly coulda trained forever n still been just a mediocre baseball player.
Chiropractic is a skill.
The Chiro must train and hone their skills and the best are also the ones that train hard coupled with just kind of having been made for it.
These ones ares hard to find but once u find a Chiro who can adjust really well u will not believe how truly effective it is.
Just like mediocre surgeons I'm sure their are chiropractors that go thru their whole career and are mediocre at best at what they do.
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Chiropractors have a place in healthcare. They provide a good service and should be respected as healthcare professionals.
That said, if you do have a ligament, muscle or tendon tear, you should probably go see an orthopedic surgeon for repair of that problem. Maybe Chiro can tell us whether there are other options via the use of chiropractors for these types of injuries. I am interested in knowing, as I probably have Labral tears on both shoulders from decades of wear and tear.
Chiropractors are doctors in their own discipline and should be respected as such. There are more Doctors now in healthcare than there were ever before, so keep in mind, that as a consumer, you have way more options.
Besides chiropractors, these are some other doctors you might have not heard of:
DPT: Doctorate of Physical Therapy
DNP: Doctorate of Nursing Practice
DPA: Doctorate of Physician Assistant
PharmD: Doctor of Pharmacy
DN: Doctorate in Nutrition
These are all REAL doctors that have gone to school (Undergrad & Grad level) for well over 8 years and had their own residencies, in most instances, to attain the degree that they have, which can be applied to the realm of healthcare.
Watch out for both Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants with Doctorates. Those two groups WILL be the future of primary care medicine. Statistics are all pointing in that direction.
Also, don't be surprised if more people visit their local chiropractor for help with back aches and pains, versus waiting months on in to see an orthopedist.
"1"
The big problem is that many of them are instructing their patients to forgo traditional medical treatment in favor of "natural" unproven treatments. They are clearly operating outside the scope of their profession when recommending this.
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BIG ACH is going to be a doctor, doesn't mean I'd trust him with my spine
Of course not...lol
Why would you trust a pHD in Engineering to treat you for a medical condition?
That's the same as trusting a Juris Doctor (A Lawyer, who by their training is also a DOCTOR) with your medical problems.
There are doctorates obtained in the medical sciences that are directly involved with your healthcare management and there are other Doctorates that have nothing to do with healthcare (Lawyer, PHD in Math, literature, biology, physics etc..).
'1"
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Also, when I lived in Atlanta I got an adjustment by Dr Schmidt. The Prez of Life University the noted chiro college in Marietta that is... he gave me an adjustment that everyone who saw it said he was deliberately trying to hurt me. The freaking Prez. Two students and his own gay boyfriend took me aside afterwards and said that he should not have performed that and it looked as though he was trying to hurt me on purpose.
I have only seen another a couple times after that and that was before I found the ART specialist.
i wouldn't listen to what students told u. I have never seen one single case of a chiropractor deliberately trying to hurt someone. I don't know of this guy u r taking about tho. We're u injured from the treatment?
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There are great DC's out there. The newer school ones are fantastic. Quite a few are a perfect marriage of many modalities: ART, Graston, Myo-Skeletal Alignment, Fascial Release/Postural Distortions, Wellness and Dietary advice/coaching, etc.
I've found that many of the old school DC's tend to be more minimalistic.... adjustment only.
I've worked with a dozen different DC's.. everyone was completely different.
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The big problem is that many of them are instructing their patients to forgo traditional medical treatment in favor of "natural" unproven treatments. They are clearly operating outside the scope of their profession when recommending this.
archer can u be a lil more specific? What unproven methods. Foregoing md treatments for what conditions?
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archer can u be a lil more specific? What unproven methods. Foregoing md treatments for what conditions?
Vitamin regiments and herbal concoctions. Forgoing cancer treat in favor of herbal remedies. Many of them are ardent opponents of childhood vaccinations. My sister in laws chiropractor has scared her off from vaccinating her kids with misinformation and outright wrong assertions.
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There are great DC's out there. The newer school ones are fantastic. Quite a few are a perfect marriage of many modalities: ART, Graston, Myo-Skeletal Alignment, Fascial Release/Postural Distortions, Wellness and Dietary advice/coaching, etc.
I've found that many of the old school DC's tend to be more minimalistic.... adjustment only.
I've worked with a dozen different DC's.. everyone was completely different.
u know what's funny? I had a serious injury last year that required surgery. All the surgeons I have consulted with wanted to treat me completely different and do different surgeries. Again. I don't think chiros are much different than any other profession when it comes to different opiniosn on how to treat certain conditions and in the way they differ in their practices.
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Vitamin regiments and herbal concoctions. Forgoing cancer treat in favor of herbal remedies. Many of them are ardent opponents of childhood vaccinations. My sister in laws chiropractor has scared her off from vaccinating her kids with misinformation and outright wrong assertions.
oh boy haha. Here's a can of worms. Cancer runs in my family. My mom died early. Her last seven months was sheer hell. She went in for an exam and cancer was found. It was non symptomatic at that time. The next six months she puked, dry heaved, diarrhea, couldn't eat, looked like a skeleton, was too weak to leave the house etc. On her death bed she said she wished she had never did the chemo and just lived her life and enjoyed it until the end. I'm sure near the end she would have needed massive pain killers as the cancer was eating her alive.
If I get cancer I don't know what I will do.
I have had hundreds of patients over the years with cancer and most of them decided chemo. Most of them suffered similar results but I do not try to convince anyone not to do any treatments of their choice. Cancer treatment outcomes are still dismal tho. Having said that their r certain forms of cancer that are very successfully treated.
I'm not big on vaccinations either. Did the doc tell your sister not to vaccinate?
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oh boy haha. Here's a can of worms. Cancer runs in my family. My mom died early. Her last seven months was sheer hell. She went in for an exam and cancer was found. It was non symptomatic at that time. The next six months she puked, dry heaved, diarrhea, couldn't eat, looked like a skeleton, was too weak to leave the house etc. On her death bed she said she wished she had never did the chemo and just lived her life and enjoyed it until the end. I'm sure near the end she would have needed massive pain killers as the cancer was eating her alive.
If I get cancer I don't know what I will do.
I have had hundreds of patients over the years with cancer and most of them decided chemo. Most of them suffered similar results but I do not try to convince anyone not to do any treatments of their choice. Cancer treatment outcomes are still dismal tho. Having said that their r certain forms of cancer that are very successfully treated.
I'm not big on vaccinations either. Did the doc tell your sister not to vaccinate?
Sorry about your mom. My mom is currently battling lung cancer and it isn't looking good.
The chiropractor recommended she not vaccinate and reference the Wakefield debacle as evidence. He was completely unaware Wakefield assertions had been soundly refuted and he has subsequently been disgraced.
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chiro is one of my favourite posters and knows about my experience with a chiropractor
the best i can say is there are probably good and bad ones
the one i went to tried to disable me for life
What happened? Did you end up walking out of the session?
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Sorry about your mom. My mom is currently battling lung cancer and it isn't looking good.
The chiropractor recommended she not vaccinate and reference the Wakefield debacle as evidence. He was completely unaware Wakefield assertions had been soundly refuted and he has subsequently been disgraced.
Sorry about your mom. Question for you if you don't mind. Right now, would you say her diet is primarily carbs? Just indulge me on this.
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Sorry about your mom. Question for you if you don't mind. Right now, would you say her diet is primarily carbs? Just indulge me on this.
Appreciate the concern. Whatever she can get down but Im not sure exactly. Mostly soups and easily digestible foods. She was a heavy smoker for over fifty years. Had her first cigerette at thirteen.
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My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it.... some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc injured area.......
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
What do you think ?
From my experience...if there is even the SLIGHTEST thought there is a tear in the rotator cuff, I order an MRI and get that before ANY therapy is done. If any chiro says that adjusting the shoulder will directly heal the tear...ask them to explain why. Adjusting the joint will help, but the actual tear will require time and rehab exercises (of which the chiro SHOULD be able to teach you and have you do before or after adjusting anything)
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chiro is one of my favourite posters and knows about my experience with a chiropractor
the best i can say is there are probably good and bad ones
the one i went to tried to disable me for life
Always sucks to hear of a story like this. I take it very personally when one of my colleagues disrespects the profession by providing poor treatment, or worse, injuring a patient. I will say that it is the exception to the rule. Still, there's no excuse for that.
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Appreciate the concern. Whatever she can get down but Im not sure exactly. Mostly soups and easily digestible foods. She was a heavy smoker for over fifty years. Had her first cigerette at thirteen.
I speak from experience in that my father had lung, brain, and stomach. If her diet is HIGH in carbohydrates...step in and see what you can do. Everyone bags on Layne Norton but he was the one who actually talked to a little about this...and then connected me with a very prominent cancer researcher in Florida. Cancer cells are obligate users of sugar. So, why give them something that they can thrive on? My father was diagnosed with stage 4...so there wasn't a whole lot that could be done.
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Cheers mate, if I ever wanted someone to accidentally cause me permament spinal cord injury, I would want it to be you.
Its faster to damage your spinal cord by doing Crossfit...according to Uberman. You are welcome in advance.
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I speak from experience in that my father had lung, brain, and stomach. If her diet is HIGH in carbohydrates...step in and see what you can do. Everyone bags on Layne Norton but he was the one who actually talked to a little about this...and then connected me with a very prominent cancer researcher in Florida. Cancer cells are obligate users of sugar. So, why give them something that they can thrive on? My father was diagnosed with stage 4...so there wasn't a whole lot that could be done.
Thanks for info. I'll look into her eating habits. She's at the point where she is about ready to give up on treatment. You probably heard the whole, I've lived a long full life speech, yourself
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Sorry about your mom. My mom is currently battling lung cancer and it isn't looking good.
The chiropractor recommended she not vaccinate and reference the Wakefield debacle as evidence. He was completely unaware Wakefield assertions had been soundly refuted and he has subsequently been disgraced.
thanks man. I hope ur moms ok. It was honestly the hardest thing I myself had ever been thru. Just seeing my mom who was the rock of our family just painfully wither away.
On the vaccination issue. I don't know the Wakefield whatever. Honestly I'm just not a huge fan of loading up syringes and shooting tons of shit into our bodies. Oh wait....where am I?
But anyway, there are trade offs and consequences to whatever we do. While the chicken pox vaccine has cut infant mortality nearly in half for chicken pox since 1995 there is no an epidemic of thousands of adults suffering from horribly painful long term or permanent shingles. Many researchers feel this is because when children would get chickenpox just being around them was like a booster shot for adults. In essence the adult that would be even near the child, wether it b the parent or grandparent, well their immune system would recognize the virus in the child and their immune system would be boosted. Since no kids go thru chicken pox, adults aren't getting that booster and hence r coming down with adult inset shingles but these cases r much more severe n longer term than prior. So now we come up w a shingles vaccine haha. So who knows?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/health/03vaccine.html?_r=0
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From my experience...if there is even the SLIGHTEST thought there is a tear in the rotator cuff, I order an MRI and get that before ANY therapy is done. If any chiro says that adjusting the shoulder will directly heal the tear...ask them to explain why. Adjusting the joint will help, but the actual tear will require time and rehab exercises (of which the chiro SHOULD be able to teach you and have you do before or after adjusting anything)
To OMR: thanks for your input.
Krank has about 15 years more experience than I do. I really can't add much more to what he said regarding labral tears, or any soft tissue tear...he is dead on. If you can disregard the tiny penis, lower back tattoo that says "CROSS FIT OR DIE!!!", and the weird fetish with wearing women's clothing on the weekends, Krankesntein is one hell of a clinician an a fkn smart guy.
I will add, that I do feel that a human body free of any biomechanical aberrations has a better chance of proper and efficient healing than a human body that is experiencing nervous interference.
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Thanks for info. I'll look into her eating habits. She's at the point where she is about ready to give up on treatment. You probably heard the whole, I've lived a long full life speech, yourself
Well, my father went through it all. Didn't help. We were not really being given a prognosis on his condition from the head doctor so my sister stepped in and fired him. She requested another one and this one came in, looked all his info and basically said to him that if what we were doing had not worked it probably wouldn't work. He could stay in the hospital and they could make him comfortable. He said he would not spend his last days there and wanted to go home. We got one more week with him. I feel for you. There is no cruelty or bad intent in this next statement. Enjoy the time you have with her. Nothing is going to prepare you for when she is gone. I do not know how close you are to her, but my father and I were very close. I can not write this with out tearing up...but I admire him for making the choice he did and for also enduring all he did with the treatments. I am not sure I would be as strong in the face of such piss poor odds. So, people can bag on chiropractic as not being legit...but let me ask this. How much money has gone into cancer research? Are we even one step closer to doing anything to stop people like us from losing the people so close to us? I personally don't see it.
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From my experience...if there is even the SLIGHTEST thought there is a tear in the rotator cuff, I order an MRI and get that before ANY therapy is done. If any chiro says that adjusting the shoulder will directly heal the tear...ask them to explain why. Adjusting the joint will help, but the actual tear will require time and rehab exercises (of which the chiro SHOULD be able to teach you and have you do before or after adjusting anything)
i didn't watch the vid cuz didn't look like there was nudity in it haha. Anyway absolutely. If a tear is suspected order an MRI. However only a small amount of tears require surgery. Many heal on their own and strengthening the supportive tissue will aid in the healing. If it is a tear that requires surgery of course a Chiro cannot fix it.
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Well, my father went through it all. Didn't help. We were not really being given a prognosis on his condition from the head doctor so my sister stepped in and fired him. She requested another one and this one came in, looked all his info and basically said to him that if what we were doing had not worked it probably wouldn't work. He could stay in the hospital and they could make him comfortable. He said he would not spend his last days there and wanted to go home. We got one more week with him. I feel for you. There is no cruelty or bad intent in this next statement. Enjoy the time you have with her. Nothing is going to prepare you for when she is gone. I do not know how close you are to her, but my father and I were very close. I can not write this with out tearing up...but I admire him for making the choice he did and for also enduring all he did with the treatments. I am not sure I would be as strong in the face of such piss poor odds. So, people can bag on chiropractic as not being legit...but let me ask this. How much money has gone into cancer research? Are we even one step closer to doing anything to stop people like us from losing the people so close to us? I personally don't see it.
make no mistake about it. Cancer is big business my friend.
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Chiropractors have a place in healthcare. They provide a good service and should be respected as healthcare professionals.
That said, if you do have a ligament, muscle or tendon tear, you should probably go see an orthopedic surgeon for repair of that problem. Maybe Chiro can tell us whether there are other options via the use of chiropractors for these types of injuries. I am interested in knowing, as I probably have Labral tears on both shoulders from decades of wear and tear.
Chiropractors are doctors in their own discipline and should be respected as such. There are more Doctors now in healthcare than there were ever before. So keep in mind, that as a consumer, you have way more options.
Besides chiropractors, these are some other doctors you might have not heard of:
DPT: Doctorate of Physical Therapy
DNP: Doctorate of Nursing Practice
DPA: Doctorate of Physician Assistant
PharmD: Doctor of Pharmacy
DN: Doctorate in Nutrition
These are all REAL doctors that have gone to school (Undergrad & Grad level) for well over 8 years and had their own residencies, in most instances, to attain the degree that they have, which can be applied to the realm of healthcare.
Watch out for both Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants with Doctorates. Those two groups WILL be the future of primary care medicine. Statistics are all pointing in that direction.
Also, don't be surprised if more people visit their local chiropractor for help with back aches and pains, versus waiting months on in to see an orthopedist.
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Thanks for the words. I know the history you have with my profession, and that above is a great example why I respect you so much. If you haven't gotten an MRI of those shoulders, get one. Find out whats going on. Labrum tears are not the quickest to heal. There are a number of options out there for treatment. Like I said above, if a chiro suspects it and just wants to charge right in and adjust without doing any kind of assessment. Kindly thank them for their time and leave. I will be more than happy to list out the orthopoedic tests the chiro should have done if they suspect a rotator tear as well as labrum tear.
Silk - exactly. Thats what I am saying. Soft tissue supports the joints, so thats where the chiro comes in. Dysfunction in a joint from compromised soft tissue is evident in a lot of things we treat. The muscle most responsible for cervical stabilty (up to 40%) is the longus colli muscle. Weaken that sucker (forward head posture/anterior head carriage) and you displace the natural center of gravity in the neck and you will start to see spurring of the bones as well as reduction in disc height. Thats biomechanics and the simple physiology of the body.
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C-Flex and Krankensteiner are both great athletes and spokespeople for their field.
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Silk and Krank, thank you guys for the info and warmth. I hope you both know I return the sentiment. A lot of interesting facts, wisdom and insight in your replies and I appreciate it......no homo.
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Thanks for info. I'll look into her eating habits. She's at the point where she is about ready to give up on treatment. You probably heard the whole, I've lived a long full life speech, yourself
Sorry to hear about your mom bro.
A few things...
What cancer needs to survive and flourish: 1- sugar. 2- an acidic environment. 3- A HYPOxic environment.
Get her on a low carb diet ASAP, start researching alkalinizing foods and supplements and get her on as much good stuff as possible. Dont know what her exact level of health is but even a few minutes of walking and slightly increased heart rate will be helpful to try to get some oxygen in her system.
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C-Flex and Krankensteiner are both great athletes and spokespeople for their field.
This means much coming from you my friend. Printing this page out right now and hanging it on my fridge. This is a memorable day.
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Sorry to hear about your mom bro.
A few things...
What cancer needs to survive and flourish: 1- sugar. 2- an acidic environment. 3- A HYPOxic environment.
Get her on a low carb diet ASAP, start researching alkalinizing foods and supplements and get her on as much good stuff as possible. Dont know what her exact level of health is but even a few minutes of walking and slightly increased heart rate will be helpful to try to get some oxygen in her system.
I will do that. I appreciate the info. I meant to include you in the mesaage, Chiro. I remember reading a bit about cancer and sugar. Fascinating stuff. Sugar is ubiquitous and hard to escape. It's crammed into every product as a filler.
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What happened? Did you end up walking out of the session?
i had about 20 sessions and got worse and worse
i eventually went to a sports physio who spent months getting me back to normal
the guy that treated me should be struck off
he just kept saying you will get worse before you get better
c u n t
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i wouldn't listen to what students told u. I have never seen one single case of a chiropractor deliberately trying to hurt someone. I don't know of this guy u r taking about tho. We're u injured from the treatment?
You wouldn't listen to students who have been told by their professors NOT to do exactly what he did to me since the day they started university? This man's fucking boyfriend even came up to me afterwards and said "you ok? he did that on purpose". WTF?
This is what happened. I was laying on my back on the table, he was at the end near my feet. (I was still wearing shoes), he picked up both feet and pressed them together so my feet and ankles were touching. He had one hand on the top (12 oclock position) and the other hand at the bottom on my heels (6 oclock position) Then he started moving them upward to the left, downwards to center, upwards to the right. Sort of a gentle swaying "V" shape movement. He said that it was designed to see how the flexibility of my hips were and some other reason (I forgot what he was observing). He did this for a couple of minutes and when I was relaxed he suddenly just brought them to the center and WRENCHED my legs around like he was turning a huge steering wheel. My toes were at the 9 oclock position and my heels at 3 oclock position,..
Seriously when a junior student tells you "they told us to never ever do that to a patient" what do you think he was doing?
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I will do that. I appreciate the info. I meant to include you in the mesaage, Chiro. I remember reading a bit about cancer and sugar. Fascinating stuff. Sugar is ubiquitous and hard to escape. It's crammed into every product as a filler.
Ever heard of a PET scan? Positron Emission Tomography. Doctors attach radioactive tracers to a glucose (sugar) molecule and inject the patient. Then they use a scan image to see where the glucose is being metabolized the fastest....they know cancer thrives on sugar, so it gives the exact location of the cancer cells. So, that leads us to conclude....WHY THE FUCK AREN'T MORE ONCOLOGISTS STRESSING THE IMPORTANCE OF MINIMIZNG SUGAR AND CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMPTION??? .
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Pseudoscience bullshit with roots in new age quackery. Some are better than others but most do not discuss the new age/occult origin of chiropractic "medicine". Get a massage from a licensed massage therapist.
so.....it's a new age cult that's been practiced for 2000 years?
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You wouldn't listen to students who have been told by their professors NOT to do exactly what he did to me since the day they started university? This man's fucking boyfriend even came up to me afterwards and said "you ok? he did that on purpose". WTF?
This is what happened. I was laying on my back on the table, he was at the end near my feet. (I was still wearing shoes), he picked up both feet and pressed them together so my feet and ankles were touching. He had one hand on the top (12 oclock position) and the other hand at the bottom on my heels (6 oclock position) Then he started moving them upward to the left, downwards to center, upwards to the right. Sort of a gentle swaying "V" shape movement. He said that it was designed to see how the flexibility of my hips were and some other reason (I forgot what he was observing). He did this for a couple of minutes and when I was relaxed he suddenly just brought them to the center and WRENCHED my legs around like he was turning a huge steering wheel. My toes were at the 9 oclock position and my heels at 3 oclock position,..
Seriously when a junior student tells you "they told us to never ever do that to a patient" what do you think he was doing?
i take it back. He performed the lost shaolin toes at 9 heel at 3 O'clock position. Although when originated it was called toes at 3 heels at 9 O' Sundial position.
U r destined to walk as a broken abacus for the remainder of ur life.
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Also, when I lived in Atlanta I got an adjustment by Dr Schmidt. The Prez of Life University the noted chiro college in Marietta that is... he gave me an adjustment that everyone who saw it said he was deliberately trying to hurt me. The freaking Prez. Two students and his own gay boyfriend took me aside afterwards and said that he should not have performed that and it looked as though he was trying to hurt me on purpose.
I have only seen another a couple times after that and that was before I found the ART specialist.
No clue in the world whatthe hell he was trying to do. I have heard MANY stories from patients. EVERY...and I mean EVERY patient I adjust for the first time I explain what I will be doing. I don't care if you have been going to one for many years. Its a habit and I feel better knowing I am explaining everything. Someone might not. One patient told me that with a side posture adjustment his old chiro (female) would literally yank his pants downto contact the "appropriate" segment of the sacrum. ((shaking head))
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No clue in the world whatthe hell he was trying to do. I have heard MANY stories from patients. EVERY...and I mean EVERY patient I adjust for the first time I explain what I will be doing. I don't care if you have been going to one for many years. Its a habit and I feel better knowing I am explaining everything. Someone might not. One patient told me that with a side posture adjustment his old chiro (female) would literally yank his pants downto contact the "appropriate" segment of the sacrum. ((shaking head))
yeah. Srsly. It doesn't even sound remotely familiar. I have no idea. lurkernomore, was there a reason he would be trying to hurt u? Still not convinced he was tho but how would I know I wasn't there. Maybe he was. The odd thing is if patients said they learned to never perform this move it must be a move taught at one time or at least known of?
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chiropractic has changed my life for the better 100 fold.
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As someone who has had to go through disc replacement with similar injury to Ronnie and Jay, with atrophy from disc compression, I dont rate them, but maybe it was just my chiro, he completely missed my diagnosis and as a result I have permanent nerve damage, my advice to you or any chiropractor get diagnosed or diagnose someone properly, and that requires MRI, no one can be sure what your injuries are from and a rub down or adjustment is just guessing use technology be thorough, rubbing down, cracking shit and adjustments is fine if you dont have more serious issues, they dont make any money sending you off to MRI, they would rather crack and rub your back a few times than diagnose you. Go to a GP then an orthopedic, if you want an overpriced massage go somewhere else is all I'm saying.
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Ever heard of a PET scan? Positron Emission Tomography. Doctors attach radioactive tracers to a glucose (sugar) molecule and inject the patient. Then they use a scan image to see where the glucose is being metabolized the fastest....they know cancer thrives on sugar, so it gives the exact location of the cancer cells. So, that leads us to conclude....WHY THE FUCK AREN'T MORE ONCOLOGISTS STRESSING THE IMPORTANCE OF MINIMIZNG SUGAR AND CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMPTION??? .
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! But not one Dr will tell you that sugar is harmful. They WILL tell you to eat a low cut diet the day before your PET scan, but they don't bother to tell you why. FUCKING IDIOTS!!
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WHY THE FUCK AREN'T MORE ONCOLOGISTS STRESSING THE IMPORTANCE OF MINIMIZNG SUGAR AND CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMPTION??? .
Agreed!
A while back, I was reading a book by Gary Taubes titled, "Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Diet and Health". In his book, Mr. Taubes dived into the fact that populations like that of the Eskimos have an incredibly small prevalence of cancer, diabetes and heart disease due to their native diet. Their diets are composed of high protein, fats (good fats) and a very negligible amount of carbs. He spoke of example whereby a solid group of Eskimos (>500) adopted a Western diet for a set period of time and as a result, they experienced an increased in the rate of diseases like that of cancer, diabetes and heart disease, whereas the other Eskimos (who stayed with their native diets) continued to be healthy. Ultimately, his studies found that processed carbohydrates are greatly linked to the risk of developing cancer.
This is the book for those interested in a good read:
(http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9781400033461_p0_v1_s260x420.jpg)
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Agreed!
A while back, I was reading a book by Gary Taubes titled, "Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Diet and Health". In his book, Mr. Taubes dived into the fact that populations like that of the Eskimos have an incredibly small prevalence of cancer, diabetes and heart disease due to their native diet. Their diets are composed of high protein, fats (good fats) and a very negligible amount of carbs. He spoke of example whereby a solid group of Eskimos (>500) adopted a Western diet for a set period of time and as a result, they experienced an increased in the rate of diseases like that of cancer, diabetes and heart disease, whereas the other Eskimos (who stayed with their native diets) continued to be healthy. Ultimately, his studies found that processed carbohydrates are greatly linked to risk of developing cancer.
This is the book for those interested in a good read:
(http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/9781400033461_p0_v1_s260x420.jpg)
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Great stuff brother....This will be my next purchase. I'd also recommend this book as well. Very short and easy read. I saw Dr. Majors speak at an event and tell his story. The book details his entire process dealing with brain cancer, from diagnosis to treatment to complete remission of his cancer. Amazing stuff. Will make you think differently about the way we approach traditional cancer treatment.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/03c7650f09bcbc622f28d98442bb1c85.jpg)
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"How much money has gone into cancer research? Are we even one step closer to doing anything to stop people like us from losing the people so close to us? I personally don't see it."
there is much being done specially for people like me
who may face liver cancer due to hepc and the inability
to take the current drug regiment. there are new
drug trials constantly with each making progress.
chiro and god have the exact same cure rate for diseases. zero
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As someone who has had to go through disc replacement with similar injury to Ronnie and Jay, with atrophy from disc compression, I dont rate them, but maybe it was just my chiro, he completely missed my diagnosis and as a result I have permanent nerve damage, my advice to you or any chiropractor get diagnosed or diagnose someone properly, and that requires MRI, no one can be sure what your injuries are from and a rub down or adjustment is just guessing use technology be thorough, rubbing down, cracking shit and adjustments is fine if you dont have more serious issues, they dont make any money sending you off to MRI, they would rather crack and rub your back a few times than diagnose you. Go to a GP then an orthopedic, if you want an overpriced massage go somewhere else is all I'm saying.
Without sounding like a broken record, there are good Drs and bad ones. Completely missing something is not foreign to an MD. No matter what the profession. An MRI is not the be-all, end-all diagnostic tool. If it was, there wouldn't be a need for pre authorization. In case you aren't aware, some insurance companies require a healthcare professional to treat a person for a few visits before an MRI is granted. Are you comfortable with MD's that will look at someone for maybe 5 mins and then simply say "Here is a script for some pain killers and anti-inflammatories". Is that being thorough? Not really. The term 'serious issues' is kind of relative, don't you think? I order about 3 - 5 MRI's a month. You are right, I don't make money off them. Why should I care? Not all MD's have them in their offices either. They don't make money on the MRI. Whats your point with that? I take some real offense to you claiming that 'they only want to crack you rather than diagnose you'. Have you ever seen any of your diagnosis codes from the MD? Probably not.
Buffd - so, the allopathic industry has a 100% cure rate? I have never said not to take drugs. Show me someone who has been "cured" of rhematoid arthirtis. Great track record.
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Every person I've ever known (with the exception of 1) that have visited a chiropractor for adjustments/manipulations have ended up far worse off then before they visited......some have never recovered from the visit....permanent damage done.
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I'm an absolute believer in physical therapy and massage therapy, especially for the elderly who need to keep moving.
That said, I have no understanding how Chiropractics can work. My own theory is that many Chiroprators are actually excellent physical therapists, and therefore what they do does, in fact, work.
I don't get the "adjusting" your spine, etc. How can you move herniated disks, cartledge, etc.? And if you did, you'd most likely injure the person.
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I'm an absolute believer in physical therapy and massage therapy, especially for the elderly who need to keep moving.
That said, I have no understanding how Chiropractics can work. My own theory is that many Chiroprators are actually excellent physical therapists, and therefore what they do does, in fact, work.
I don't get the "adjusting" your spine, etc. How can you move herniated disks, cartledge, etc.? And if you did, you'd most likely injure the person.
Joints in the body misalign due to a variety of stresses. Chiropractors aim to specifically address each misalignment and return the joint to its proper juxtaposition.
Regarding discs: I don't believe there are any chiropractic techniques specific to "adjusting" discs. But, a subluxated vertebral segment can exacerbate an already herniated disc. A lot of DC's do use some other techniques such as Mackenzie technique which is a PT therapy to treat disc issues, with great success. Lumbar Flexion-Distraction is also phenomenal for discs. As are any traction units that are properly administered.
Specific, safe adjustments will definitely help aid the healing process of a disc injury. But disc issues are a bitch and require several methods of treatment.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/51736afc5bfa2a1a4b6738127f09fa08.jpg)
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"How much money has gone into cancer research? Are we even one step closer to doing anything to stop people like us from losing the people so close to us? I personally don't see it."
there is much being done specially for people like me
who may face liver cancer due to hepc and the inability
to take the current drug regiment. there are new
drug trials constantly with each making progress.
chiro and god have the exact same cure rate for diseases. zero
I know this is slightly off track from the debate regarding chiropractors doing more harm than good, but I wanted to chime in with something regarding your condition.
Has your team of Hepatologists considered using Sofosbuvir? Let me know, as I recently read a piece of work surrounding its use and the high cure rate (greater than 78%) achieved for patients with Hepatitis C.
I've also heard of patients that have managed to get cured of Hepatitis C completely. Their approach for complete cure involved the use of both antiviral drugs and a living-donor liver transplant (This approach produced an 80% cure rate).
What they did was to take patients with both advanced Hepatitis C and a Cirrhotic liver and consequently placed them on a 6-8 month course of both Interferon and Ribavirin (in a step-up approach), slowly increasing their dosages from month to month. Once they reached an undetectable Hepatitis C viral load in their blood for at least 12 weeks, they then went ahead and performed a living donor liver transplant. Essentially, what occurred is that these patients were both cured of Hepatitis C and cured of their cirrhotic liver due to the presence of a newly transplanted liver.
For more information on this study and the results seen in over 295 patients, take a look at this NIH study found in PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22151078 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22151078)
If you need further information, let me know and I can get you in contact with a couple of the best Hepatologists in NYC.
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(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
No offence, but that isn't saying much for the rest of the medical field.
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Every person I've ever known (with the exception of 1) that have visited a chiropractor for adjustments/manipulations have ended up far worse off then before they visited......some have never recovered from the visit....permanent damage done.
Ok ::)
I'm an absolute believer in physical therapy and massage therapy, especially for the elderly who need to keep moving.
That said, I have no understanding how Chiropractics can work. My own theory is that many Chiroprators are actually excellent physical therapists, and therefore what they do does, in fact, work.
I don't get the "adjusting" your spine, etc. How can you move herniated disks, cartledge, etc.? And if you did, you'd most likely injure the person.
You aren't necessarily moving the disc. The discs are kept healthy through a process called imbibition. Compressive along with flexion/extension forces cause this. When the spinal joints are fixated, the discs will not be able to stay healthy and thus will be more suseptible to damage from forces acting at the spinal joint that it would normally be able to sustain. Are you aware that most people would probably NOT get to the point of a herniation if they didn't have the "it will go away" or "it's not that bad" mentality?
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Cheers mate, if I ever wanted someone to accidentally cause me permament spinal cord injury, I would want it to be you.
LMAO!!!
Are you suggesting that mastering the "over-under" deadlift grip isn't exactly brain surgery, Ray?
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No offence, but that isn't saying much for the rest of the medical field.
What changes would you like to see?
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I've posted about it before, but a chiropractor caused me to have a stroke. I fell out in his office from a neck manipulation. 26, and he pinched my blood flow causing me to have a stroke. Most of them are quacks I feel. Sorry chiroflex.
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I've posted about it before, but a chiropractor caused me to have a stroke. I fell out in his office from a neck manipulation. 26, and he pinched my blood flow causing me to have a stroke. Most of them are quacks I feel. Sorry chiroflex.
Sorry to hear that. It is extremely rare, as in your more likely to get struck by lighting, but CVA's can happen. We are trained to perform all the vertebrobasilar artery insufficiency exams, but it's a shame if you slipped through the cracks and became part of a very small statistic. However, according to statistics, your odds were still better than stepping foot in a GP's office. (My comment should NOT read that I am ANTI-mainstream medicine....that's not my point at all.) Accidents do happen when treating patients, but it's extremely rare.
(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/9ce7396f640ad40470160dc95a6e9008.jpg)
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I am going to Vince Goodrum for all my medical needs and concerns.
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I am going to Vince Goodrum for all my medical needs and concerns.
Well that's obviously the preferred specialist if it's covered under your HMO. What we are arguing about here is: what is the 2nd best form of healthcare next to Goodrum-Care.
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(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
You're a good poster! but this chart is a little misleading. My guess is it's just taking into account the first two years of med school vs. chiro school. This wouldn't take into account the 5 or 6 years of residency that an orthopod or any other specialist would do and all of additional classroom time and mentored practical experience that would come from that.
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You're a good poster! but this chart is a little misleading. My guess is it's just taking into account the first two years of med school vs. chiro school. This wouldn't take into account the 5 or 6 years of residency that an orthopod or any other specialist would do and all of additional classroom time and mentored practical experience that would come from that.
I see what you're saying. To be fair, many DC's go on as well and pursue diplomats in other specialties as well, racking up several more hundred hours for whatever their diplomate dictates. My mentor, a DC for 33 years, has 3 diplomates, ( internal medicine, sports medicine, and impairment rating.).
My post there was not to take anything away from fellow doctors. I was simply showing that in traditional chiropractic schools, we receive adequate training to treat patients via our methods, and we have earned fhe right to be deemed legitimate. The way I see it, we are all different spokes of the same wheel, and I have nothing but the upmost respect for you or any physician whose purpose is to help other people. Cheers
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As someone who has had to go through disc replacement with similar injury to Ronnie and Jay, with atrophy from disc compression, I dont rate them, but maybe it was just my chiro, he completely missed my diagnosis and as a result I have permanent nerve damage, my advice to you or any chiropractor get diagnosed or diagnose someone properly, and that requires MRI, no one can be sure what your injuries are from and a rub down or adjustment is just guessing use technology be thorough, rubbing down, cracking shit and adjustments is fine if you dont have more serious issues, they dont make any money sending you off to MRI, they would rather crack and rub your back a few times than diagnose you. Go to a GP then an orthopedic, if you want an overpriced massage go somewhere else is all I'm saying.
Hey, just a little tidbit for you. A patient of mine brought her daughter in for some right knee pain (superior to patella and along the inferior-lateral corner). After some testing I found she has an inflamed Hoffa's fat pad. In addition, she had a positive Obers test on the right indicating IT band contracture. Then the mom mentioned a strange popping in the daughters right foot. I knew she had a history of ankle sprains, so in the process of examination I felt the popping. Was either an extensor tendon or a peroneal tendon. I settled on peroneal tendon. In addition, the cuboid was sitting more dorsal and so I adjusted that. Did it take care of the dislocation? Nope, that wasn't the desired outcome. In any event, the Dx for this patient :
719.46
728.89
726.79
729.1
Sending her to a podiatrist confirmed my suspicion of dislocation. They are going to do an ultra sound on her and most likely there is going to be a surgical consult. Oh, did I mention that in the last couple of months her MD said for her to just ice it if it hurts?
Of course, I really not telling the truth...I didn't diagnose, I just went in, cracked and twisted her up, gave the patient an over priced massage, caused permanent damage, and laughed all the way to the bank. ::)
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Arent neurosurgeons in school for about 4-5 years of residency, plus an additional 3-4 years of training. Insane!
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Which mod deleted my post and why? This isn't for a chiro, its for an ortho. Please answer the first question.
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I see no questions....
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Was asking why my post was deleted, my first post.
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Was asking why my post was deleted, my first post.
Repost it bro...let's work through this together.
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i'm assuming you're terribly imbalanced like 90% of weightlifters and probably this is the root cause of your problems, which you should address
for one make sure your back and rear delts are in proportion with your chest and front delts. and no, not arnold proportions. make sure your shoulder girdle is not protracted. http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Posture.html
stop doing flat bench. it's shit. worthless.
do rotator cuff conditioning. with LIGHT weights. don't get 20's and swing em like so many idiots i see in the gym.
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My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it.... some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc injured area.......
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
What do you think ?
WoooSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH
This is not in the scope of a chiro, its for an ortho. ROM testing, check for atrophy, pain, winged scap during testing, etc. If ROM is limited with pain, an X-ray first for structural damage then , more than.likely an MRI. If you go to a chiro first and he/she does the same ROM tests w/pain, they should refer out to and ortho.
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Ever heard of a PET scan? Positron Emission Tomography. Doctors attach radioactive tracers to a glucose (sugar) molecule and inject the patient. Then they use a scan image to see where the glucose is being metabolized the fastest....they know cancer thrives on sugar, so it gives the exact location of the cancer cells. So, that leads us to conclude....WHY THE FUCK AREN'T MORE ONCOLOGISTS STRESSING THE IMPORTANCE OF MINIMIZNG SUGAR AND CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMPTION??? .
I have nothing personal against Chiro's but this post epitomizes the problem with this field.
Stick to manipulating peoples lower backs.
I really hope you never get cancer, but when you do, tell me how your Keto diet is going to cure you.
Pathetic ::)
Oh and by the way, the number of time medical students is spending "in class" is actually being reduced even further. The purpose of medical school is NOT to teach students everything there is to know about medicine, physiology, biology, chemistry etc. etc. etc. It is to teach students the fundamentals of how to think critically. A doctor's real learning comes from the 2 years of clerkship, 1 year of internship, 4 years of residency and 2 to 3 years of fellowship training.
Tell me how much "on the job" teaching did you have before you were cracking peoples spines to cure diabetes?
Most of what is taught in medical school is or will be outdated in 5 years.
Unlike Chiros, doctors use what they have learned in medical school as a base for the future by constantly staying up to date (no pun intended) through reputable peer reviewed journals.
Do you even know what a journal is or have one with an impact factor >2?????
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Krank if you read your replies to my post, you pretty much back up my argument, chiros will treat you along a line of treatment that they can profit out of, I understand thats business and thanks for confirming what I thought.It would be hard to treat someone when your professional view is conflicted by your need to profit, it would be almost second nature i guess to always try and diagnose a problem that can be treated by yourself other than alternative treatment. Your honesty whilst admits a lack of professionalism you usually would expect from medical graduates is greatly appreciated but then again I have to keep in mind your a chiropractor not a medical professional.
;D
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Buffd - so, the allopathic industry has a 100% cure rate? I have never said not to take drugs. Show me someone who has been "cured" of rhematoid arthirtis. Great track record.
chiro is like christian prayer,
a cure rate of zero. a scam rate of 100%
great track record indeed.
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This is not in the scope of a chiro, its for an ortho. ROM testing, check for atrophy, pain, winged scap during testing, etc. If ROM is limited with pain, an X-ray first for structural damage then , more than.likely an MRI. If you go to a chiro first and he/she does the same ROM tests w/pain, they should refer out to and ortho.
Joe, you couldn't be more wrong. ROM testing, manual muscle testing, sensory, etc. Thats neurological testing that is absolutely within the scope of my license. X-ray is NOT always the initial study that is warranted. People think you IMMEDIATELY refer to an ortho.
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chiro is like christian prayer,
a cure rate of zero. a scam rate of 100%
great track record indeed.
I guess all the patients I have helped are just figments of my imagination. Debating with someone like you is pointless to me. Why did you not address my point about allopathic industry? Want me to list off ten things that aren't 100%...or even 50% cured with MD's? How about the fact that carpal tunnel surgery has the HIGHEST failure rate of any surgery? I believe it's somewhere in the 60-70% failure rate. That it is also is the most repeated. Yeah, we are scammers. ::)
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Ever heard of a PET scan? Positron Emission Tomography. Doctors attach radioactive tracers to a glucose (sugar) molecule and inject the patient. Then they use a scan image to see where the glucose is being metabolized the fastest....they know cancer thrives on sugar, so it gives the exact location of the cancer cells. So, that leads us to conclude....WHY THE FUCK AREN'T MORE ONCOLOGISTS STRESSING THE IMPORTANCE OF MINIMIZNG SUGAR AND CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMPTION??? .
I eat a lot of vegetables, fruit, oats and some wholegrain bread....how does this fit in?
Or or you referring to really processed carbs and sugars?
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Krank if you read your replies to my post, you pretty much back up my argument, chiros will treat you along a line of treatment that they can profit out of, I understand thats business and thanks for confirming what I thought.It would be hard to treat someone when your professional view is conflicted by your need to profit, it would be almost second nature i guess to always try and diagnose a problem that can be treated by yourself other than alternative treatment. Your honesty whilst admits a lack of professionalism you usually would expect from medical graduates is greatly appreciated but then again I have to keep in mind your a chiropractor not a medical professional.
;D
I don't have to read my reply as I am the one who wrote it. Where did I back up your argument? You claim above about treatment for profit is pretty much not limited to chiro, but to every medical profession. Hello? Seriously? Show me ONE, just ONE medical professional that WON'T treat for profit. The next time you go to a doctor appointment, ask them what services they will be billing for. Ask them the codes they will be submitting to your insurance company. I have seen my own bills when I have gone to a doctor and let me tell you. The E/M codes they submitted were absolutely incorrect. Billing out for a 99204 exam on me when they never reached the proper time component, nor satisfied the major components necessary to justify the use of that code. The example I gave above showed almost the opposite. I treated the girl one time and referred her to another health professional. Thats not over treating. Thats not milking her insurance. The MD who she saw 2 - 3 times before me kept telling her to "just ice" it. Hmmm. Great job diagnosing it on his part.
Please point out my lack of professionalism. I welcome it. I challenge you to find it. Let me tell you something about that visit too. I came in when my office was normally closed. I did not bill them for the taping nor the exam. Something I was well within my right to do. They were charged for the adjustment which was deemed necessary by me as the medical professional. I don't recall you being there at the time of service to offer up an alternative opinion. I do not make any money on her seeing the podiatrist, nor her getting an ultrasound, and certainly not out of the surgery if needed.
I actually take offense to your insinuation that I had anything other than the patients best interest in mind.
I have nothing personal against Chiro's but this post epitomizes the problem with this field.
Stick to manipulating peoples lower backs.
I will stick to that, along with wrists, shoulders, necks, ankles, etc
I really hope you never get cancer, but when you do, tell me how your Keto diet is going to cure you.
...and this epitomizes the lack of attention displayed most often on GB. Did you not just read that cancer cells are obligate users of sugar? That a very prominent cancer researcher advised me to have my father limit the carbohydrates in his diet. He is not a chiro, but an MD and PhD. Also, have you ever wondered why cancer patients are given Ensure? Ever look at the label?
Pathetic ::)
yes, your reply is
Oh and by the way, the number of time medical students is spending "in class" is actually being reduced even further. The purpose of medical school is NOT to teach students everything there is to know about medicine, physiology, biology, chemistry etc. etc. etc. It is to teach students the fundamentals of how to think critically. A doctor's real learning comes from the 2 years of clerkship, 1 year of internship, 4 years of residency and 2 to 3 years of fellowship training.
Perhaps you mean, the 'amount' of time? The job of chiro school is not to teach us everything there is to know either. But, I figured you would know that because you are trying to come across as all knowing about my profession.
Tell me how much "on the job" teaching did you have before you were cracking peoples spines to cure diabetes?
None. When someone is born with Type 1 diabetes, no adjustment will restore the Islets of Langerhans. Neither will any surgery or medication. Are you aware of that? Also, no adjustment will help with someone reducing excess food intake and getting them to exercise more in order to help them reverse the Type 2 diabetes. Nor will any surgery. Sure medications help, but if you correct a diet and start exercising...guess what? The incidence of Type 2 reduces. Of course, you knew that too.
Most of what is taught in medical school is or will be outdated in 5 years.
Most? Wow..pretty bold statement.
Unlike Chiros, doctors use what they have learned in medical school as a base for the future by constantly staying up to date (no pun intended) through reputable peer reviewed journals.
I would like to see you go to your medical doctor and ask them what the last medical journal they read. You must think they sit there when they don't have patients reading them, don't you?
Do you even know what a journal is or have one with an impact factor >2?????
I can name about ten of them just off the top of my head. Ask your MD next time if he/she can.
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Been to 3 diff chiros in the last 4 years and went to one just 2 days ago, in fact I go right after I get deep tissue massage work for restoration & recovery.
One thing someone posted earlier is that chiros need to stick to cracking backs and stop trying to be trainers, peddling supplements, strength coaches, nutrition experts, etc.
Spin adjustments can offer benefits but if you're a chiro please stick to that. I hate it when a chiro try's to sell me on some new fish oil supplement.
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Been to 3 diff chiros in the last 4 years and went to one just 2 days ago, in fact I go right after I get deep tissue massage work for restoration & recovery.
One thing someone posted earlier is that chiros need to stick to cracking backs and stop trying to be trainers, peddling supplements, strength coaches, nutrition experts, etc.
Spin adjustments can offer benefits but if you're a chiro please stick to that. I hate it when a chiro try's to sell me on some new fish oil supplement.
Some have diplomates in S&C as well as nutrition, so why can't they do that? I believe my experience and education is well served to discuss nutrition with a patient. I practice what I preach. Funny thing, sending someone to a Registered Dietitian is even more pointless. You might as well just say "Eat 60% of your diet from carbohydrates. Have milk, cheese, nuts, and legumes for your protein. Make sure you don't get more then 1/2 your bodyweight in protein otherwise you will end up with kidney failure".
I do agree with you that the whole nutritional stuff at an office is a little out of hand. Guess what though...my HRT Doc tried to sell me on an 'anti-estrogen' supplement. Main ingredient : chrysin. So, I will say it once again...a lot of things people are bashing my profession for is the same stuff done by MD's.
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"Debating with someone like you is pointless to me. Why did you not address my point about allopathic industry?"
because you don't get to control a debates contents or to change the subject at will.
that's the behavior of cult leaders. and if debating me is pointless then I can fully
expect you will not reply to this. right?
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A friend of mine had a stroke from a torn vertebal artery. The first thing they asked him was if he visited a chiropractor.
I have heard too many horror stories, and have always been told to avoid them from my doctors.
Some people swear by them, but I just can't see them doing any good to take a risk using them.
Rather get an MRI, and go from there.
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"Debating with someone like you is pointless to me. Why did you not address my point about allopathic industry?"
because you don't get to control a debates contents or to change the subject at will.
that's the behavior of cult leaders. and if debating me is pointless then I can fully
expect you will not reply to this. right?
What you fully (or partially) expect and what you actually get are two different things. Don't know if you have learned that in life yet or not. You don't control a debate either. I offered a counterpoint to your statement and you avoided it. Its either from lack of knowlegde on the counter point or the fact that you realize my counterpoint was accurate. Maybe I should say that avoidance in any form is typical of a cult leader. So, now we both are cult leaders. Yay! Oh, and I never once thought I was in control of anything. On the otherhand, you weren't either. Have a blessed day. May god be with you and cure all that ails you.
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Some have diplomates in S&C as well as nutrition, so why can't they do that? I believe my experience and education is well served to discuss nutrition with a patient. I practice what I preach. Funny thing, sending someone to a Registered Dietitian is even more pointless. You might as well just say "Eat 60% of your diet from carbohydrates. Have milk, cheese, nuts, and legumes for your protein. Make sure you don't get more then 1/2 your bodyweight in protein otherwise you will end up with kidney failure".
I do agree with you that the whole nutritional stuff at an office is a little out of hand. Guess what though...my HRT Doc tried to sell me on an 'anti-estrogen' supplement. Main ingredient : chrysin. So, I will say it once again...a lot of things people are bashing my profession for is the same stuff done by MD's.
Never once did I say someone should go to an RD lol
I'm all for being well rounded in nutrition & Weight lifting knowledge but when your a chiro stick with cracking backs! HOly smokes the next chiro who thinks they are an authority on strength training and sell supplemeents in their office I"m bolting out the door like a scolded cat.
I swear, chiros can be worse than real doctors sometimes lol
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Never once did I say someone should go to an RD lol
I'm all for being well rounded in nutrition & Weight lifting knowledge but when your a chiro stick with cracking backs! HOly smokes the next chiro who thinks they are an authority on strength training and sell supplemeents in their office I"m bolting out the door like a scolded cat.
I swear, chiros can be worse than real doctors sometimes lol
So someone who registers anonymously on a message board can be better believed they are an expert on strength training?
What about a chiro who has his CSCS cert? Or a chiro who has powerlifting world records? Or a chiro that has competic in olympic lifting? Nope, those guys wouldn't know anything about strength and conditioning.
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My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it.... some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc injured area.......
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
What do you think ?
Krank & Chiro,
What is your impression of the fruity looking guy in the vid here.
Do you probe your finger around peoples throat with a latex glove on? ;D
(*I know he was prob releasing TMJ, just busting your balls)
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So someone who registers anonymously on a message board can be better believed they are an expert on strength training?
What about a chiro who has his CSCS cert? Or a chiro who has powerlifting world records? Or a chiro that has competic in olympic lifting? Nope, those guys wouldn't know anything about strength and conditioning.
Not sure how an anonymous poster on a board has anything to do w/ a chiro?
And no the cscs by no means makes someone an authority. 70% of the questions on the exam are about either OLY lifting technique or cardiovascular system.
LOL and heavens no a powerlifter or oly lifter (they're the worst) should not be speaking as an authority about smart strength training ( unless they are from west-side)
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Krank & Chiro,
What is your impression of the fruity looking guy in the vid here.
Do you probe your finger around peoples throat with a latex glove on? ;D
(*I know he was prob releasing TMJ, just busting your balls)
My impression is that a number of techniques I do not recognize (not to say that they arent valid) but primarily I see that the guy is using FAR to much rotation in some of the cervical adjustments. I personaly would NEVER do the adjustment for the TMJ like that. I have no desire to stick my hands in a patients mouth (or any other hole for that matter). Get them to an orthodontist.
Not sure how an anonymous poster on a board has anything to do w/ a chiro?
And no the cscs by no means makes someone an authority. 70% of the questions on the exam are about either OLY lifting technique or cardiovascular system.
LOL and heavens no a powerlifter or oly lifter (they're the worst) should not be speaking as an authority about smart strength training ( unless they are from west-side)
You mentioned a chiro and not being an expert in strength and conditioning. I was pointing out how many online come across like they are and people listen to them without seeing them. So, what makes someone an expert on strength and conditioning?
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My impression is that a number of techniques I do not recognize (not to say that they arent valid) but primarily I see that the guy is using FAR to much rotation in some of the cervical adjustments. I personaly would NEVER do the adjustment for the TMJ like that. I have no desire to stick my hands in a patients mouth (or any other hole for that matter). Get them to an orthodontist.
You mentioned a chiro and not being an expert in strength and conditioning. I was pointing out how many online come across like they are and people listen to them without seeing them. So, what makes someone an expert on strength and conditioning?
It's all good.
But to answer your Q as to what makes someone an expert in only the niche of strength & conditioning alone? Do you mean sports performance training? Or training with performance as the only goal - as opposed to aesthetics like bodybuilding? Or just OLY lifting?
Or do you just mean general good advice across the board for exercise?
Please clarify and I'll absolutely provide you an answer.
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go down few threads down iffb pro ken jackson prepares for toronto pro,,he visits chiro the guy is funny looking 'the chiro'but brings some interesting points there,he does some deep tissue ,has the bber stand relaxed back facing him,then hit lat spread,works the area again,again stand relaxed and then lat spread,turn around front lat spread,relaxed pose,he pointed out 1 side off a bit ,overdeveloed front delt on one side and other side rear area a bit off ,i think any of us serious trainer for yrs will be off...krank,chiro,coach are more educated then me tho,,the vid was interesting tho,,,
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stop training so damn much and maybe you wouldn't get so fucked up, athletes have injuries and surgery and treatments all the time to function well, ridiculous
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>:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
You do the same thing here in these "Chiros suck" threads that you always do in the "CrossFit sucks" threads: someone points out flaws/limitations of chiros and you respond by attacking MDs and pointing out they aren't perfect either.
Your defense of the profession would be a lot more effective if you could instead point out why the criticisms leveled at chiros (many of which in this thread are quite valid) are either invalid, not critical, or being currently improved upon.
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You do the same thing here in these "Chiros suck" threads that you always do in the "CrossFit sucks" threads: someone points out flaws/limitations of chiros and you respond by attacking MDs and pointing out they aren't perfect either.
Your defense of the profession would be a lot more effective if you could instead point out why the criticisms leveled at chiros (many of which in this thread are quite valid) are either invalid, not critical, or being currently improved upon.
Not to take up for or put down Krank,
But in fairness if you go to a ortho w/ back pain they're gonna put you on pain meds and tell you to rest. Where as a chiro will not put you on meds and will actually (usually) aid in active recovery through adjustments, traction, pre-hab, re-hab etc.
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Not to take up for or put down Krank,
But in fairness if you go to a ortho w/ back pain they're gonna put you on pain meds and tell you to rest. Where as a chiro will not put you on meds and will actually (usually) aid in active recovery through adjustments, traction, pre-hab, re-hab etc.
Yes modern medicine is almost entirely reactive rather than preventive and heavily emphasizes pharmacology, which are major problems imho. The biggest part of the problem however is that most people don't take personal responsibility for their own health and instead expect the doctor to be a miracle worker.
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Lots of back cracking, rib dislocating, shoulder jerking, neck snapping meltdowns in this thread.
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It's all good.
But to answer your Q as to what makes someone an expert in only the niche of strength & conditioning alone? Do you mean sports performance training? Or training with performance as the only goal - as opposed to aesthetics like bodybuilding? Or just OLY lifting?
Or do you just mean general good advice across the board for exercise?
Please clarify and I'll absolutely provide you an answer.
You made the statement that they come across as experts. I am asking you who would be the expert. You weren't specific in your comment, so how can I?
You do the same thing here in these "Chiros suck" threads that you always do in the "CrossFit sucks" threads: someone points out flaws/limitations of chiros and you respond by attacking MDs and pointing out they aren't perfect either.
Your defense of the profession would be a lot more effective if you could instead point out why the criticisms leveled at chiros (many of which in this thread are quite valid) are either invalid, not critical, or being currently improved upon.
Exactly. Have you ever seen a "MD's are worthless" thread? No, simply put people think the MD's are without flaw. Are above criticism. I accept the fact my profession has some people that really do not belong in it. That tarnish the name. The same as Crossfit. I have never said anything to the contrary. When someone says that we don't diagnose, that we are glorified massage therapists...how do you expect me to respond other than pointing out personal examples where they are wrong. People say go to your MD if you want a, b, or c diagnosed while bashing my profession. That is when I point out the MD profession and the flaws with that. Someone makes claims that we have no idea what research journals are or clinic reviews...I point out how prevalent they are in my profession. More than 70% of all chiropractic therapy has research behind it. Less than 25-30% of all surgical procedures have any research.
Yes modern medicine is almost entirely reactive rather than preventive and heavily emphasizes pharmacology, which are major problems imho. The biggest part of the problem however is that most people don't take personal responsibility for their own health and instead expect the doctor to be a miracle worker.
Exactly. Unfortunately a chiro is expected to be a bigger miracle worker. I speak from expereince on this. I consistently get people in my office who have been in pain for years and years. If the pain is gone completely in 2 - 3 visits, the treatment isn't working. Add to that the patient who I say "you know, if you dropped about 15 - 20 lbs your low back would improve a lot faster". They won't listen in most case. Funny thing is that with Obamacare...your MD will be held to a different standard. If they have too many patients with high BMI's they will actually get reimbursed less. So, you will either be 'forced' to lose weight or your MD will discharge you so they don't have to risk losing income.
I realize that I should just avoid these kind of threads because it is a never ending thing. Just like political and religious threads. Some people will never change their minds even when presented with facts.
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i've had nothing but good experience with chiros. Traditional western medicine could only offer me PT, anti-inflammatory and muscle relaxing meds...with the eventuality of surgery. Chiro's have fixed two sciatic problems and a mid back bulge (all from lifting). Once a month visit seems to keep that maintained. All take that cost over spinal fusion any day.
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You made the statement that they come across as experts. I am asking you who would be the expert. You weren't specific in your comment, so how can I?
Who would be an expert?
2 things:
1) Day to day in the trenches experience
2) Demonstrable success & social proof
In the strength & conditioning industry 3 names that come to mind are:
1) Our own "Coach" here on GB
2) Joe Defranco
3) and these guys www.dtsperformance.com
So someone practicing chiropractic medicine would not be an expert in S&C. But rather should strive to be an expert in Chiro care.
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my experience so take it for what its worth cause all the horror stories im hearing here are totally contradicting my own experience.
so over the course of the past dunno 20 years of training and repetitive stress i have developed sciatica that attacks my left glute out of no where when im doing something simple as walking, very limited neck movement- i have to turn my whole body, not just my head to look sideways, and it got to the point when i got up from sitting down, or out of bed and stood up i'd have to walk hunched over like an old man fighting lower back pain for the first 10 steps of so so i could straighten up. at this point i was like ok, enough is enough here. this is ridiculous. im falling apart and need to get myself sorted the fuck out cause this is drastically affecting my life.
i started chiro 2 months ago and have been going religiously, starting at 2 sessions a week and then to one now im down to every 10 days. thru visits, and her recommendations of what i should be doing in the gym, i dont have any lower back pain any longer, i can jump out of a seat, out of my car, out of bed with zero pain. i cannot believe it. i feel like a new man in this regard. just this is so amazing to me i'd be ecstatic if it were the only thing good that came out of it.
the sciatica is diminishing to the point i worked a whole shift yesterday and it didnt get me once- its been years since i can say this. im sleeping better than ever before- i used to be a side sleeper and cause of it i could only sleep on my left side. im now starting to be able to sleep well on my right side as well. in the past it just hurt me too much to sleep like that. now im finding my shoulder is adapting more to the position, and my arm doesnt fall asleep like it used to. the neck impingement is still there. that'll take time but i can feel it improving as well. and finally and i know this isnt in my head cause i know my body very well- im getting stronger on my back exercises- i have an imbalance from right to left side. for some reason now im just generating a lot of controlled power thru the first 3-4 reps of a motion. then i feel it start to go back to the way i used to train. i know one day my whole workout will involve contracting my entire back thru the whole range of motion.
when this is over im buying my chiro a thank you card. no shit. i cant believe how much this has given me my life back.
*caveat she is somewhat shocked as to the rapid changes my body is undergoing. says im progressing far faster than normal. so your experience might not mirror mine. but i strongly urge you to find a good one if you havbe anything going on like i do and see what its all about. get your life back bros.
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Joe, you couldn't be more wrong. ROM testing, manual muscle testing, sensory, etc. Thats neurological testing that is absolutely within the scope of my license. X-ray is NOT always the initial study that is warranted. People think you IMMEDIATELY refer to an ortho.
No, no you're misunderstanding. ROM, MMT is and should be within your scope and this is by no means a dig on Chiropratic, we have one on staff and getting ready to add a PT and have a great Ortho that I refer my athletes too (at Curland-Jobe) I'm saying if the client/patient fails with pain greater than a 5 in a particular plain and especially if there is "catching" during the test, then IMO (especially shoulder pain) should be referred out to an Ortho for a re-eval, X-ray then if warranted an MRI with or without contrast. It could be anything from RC irritation, to Tendonosis to labral, to a full thickness tear, etc.
I know a lot of Chiro's that insist on an X-ray before treatment just to avoid lawsuits in case they are treating the wrong problem.
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I am going to Vince Goodrum for all my medical needs and concerns.
That's good because I would tell you to go see a doctor or medical professional. Unlike people like Palumbo, I'm not going to give out medical advice unless I completed medical school. My degree is in Health Care Management....so if someone like Chiro needs paperwork done, then I'm the man to do your medical billing but that's about all
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That's good because I would tell you to go see a doctor or medical professional. Unlike people like Palumbo, I'm not going to give out medical advice unless I completed medical school. My degree is in Health Care Management....so if someone like Chiro needs paperwork done, then I'm the man to do your medical billing but that's about all
is health care management cleaning up beds that have been soiled
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is health care management cleaning up beds that have been soiled
Health Care Management is essentially the paperwork part of the medical industry....medical billing, translating procedures to medical code, filing paperwork to insurance companies, etc......I made a change from Engineering to have some stability and control over my jobs...plus medical billing can be done from home and freelanced independently, unlike engineering along with simply a higher quantity of jobs
And with ObamaCare in place, my prospects have really gone up.... ;D
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Health Care Management is essentially the paperwork part of the medical industry....medical billing, translating procedures to medical code, filing paperwork to insurance companies, etc......I made a change from Engineering to have some stability and control over my jobs...plus medical billing can be done from home and freelanced independently, unlike engineering along with simply a higher quantity of jobs
And with ObamaCare in place, my prospects have really gone up.... ;D
I think you are a pathological liar.
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I think you are a pathological liar.
Really.....please elaborate...
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my experience so take it for what its worth cause all the horror stories im hearing here are totally contradicting my own experience.
so over the course of the past dunno 20 years of training and repetitive stress i have developed sciatica that attacks my left glute out of no where when im doing something simple as walking, very limited neck movement- i have to turn my whole body, not just my head to look sideways, and it got to the point when i got up from sitting down, or out of bed and stood up i'd have to walk hunched over like an old man fighting lower back pain for the first 10 steps of so so i could straighten up. at this point i was like ok, enough is enough here. this is ridiculous. im falling apart and need to get myself sorted the fuck out cause this is drastically affecting my life.
i started chiro 2 months ago and have been going religiously, starting at 2 sessions a week and then to one now im down to every 10 days. thru visits, and her recommendations of what i should be doing in the gym, i dont have any lower back pain any longer, i can jump out of a seat, out of my car, out of bed with zero pain. i cannot believe it. i feel like a new man in this regard. just this is so amazing to me i'd be ecstatic if it were the only thing good that came out of it.
the sciatica is diminishing to the point i worked a whole shift yesterday and it didnt get me once- its been years since i can say this. im sleeping better than ever before- i used to be a side sleeper and cause of it i could only sleep on my left side. im now starting to be able to sleep well on my right side as well. in the past it just hurt me too much to sleep like that. now im finding my shoulder is adapting more to the position, and my arm doesnt fall asleep like it used to. the neck impingement is still there. that'll take time but i can feel it improving as well. and finally and i know this isnt in my head cause i know my body very well- im getting stronger on my back exercises- i have an imbalance from right to left side. for some reason now im just generating a lot of controlled power thru the first 3-4 reps of a motion. then i feel it start to go back to the way i used to train. i know one day my whole workout will involve contracting my entire back thru the whole range of motion.
when this is over im buying my chiro a thank you card. no shit. i cant believe how much this has given me my life back.
*caveat she is somewhat shocked as to the rapid changes my body is undergoing. says im progressing far faster than normal. so your experience might not mirror mine. but i strongly urge you to find a good one if you havbe anything going on like i do and see what its all about. get your life back bros.
Thanks for Sharing your experience brother. I experienced the same exact thing when I was 19. I had the same amazing experience you did, that's why I decided to go to Chiro school and make this my pofession.
My doc/mentor is seeing about 500 patients a week. He's already working 10 hour days just to get every appointment in, and he's finally at the point that he can't accept any new patients because he simply doesn't have enough time. Whenever I hang out in the office with him and observe, all I hear, for 10 hours a day, are stories like yours. That's why Ive dedicated my life to this profession. I've seen it help too many people. So much So that Its not even a choice for me now, I know this is what I HAVE to do.
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I eat a lot of vegetables, fruit, oats and some wholegrain bread....how does this fit in?
Or or you referring to really processed carbs and sugars?
Though it's not the best nutritional route for bodybuilding purposes which require high carb intake, a paleo type diet is a pretty optimal choice as far as anti-cancer diets are concerned. (but bread is terrible, all of it.) I'm young and healthy and still love bodybuilding as my hobby, but i know there will come a time when I lose the desire to "do battle on stage" and turn my diet into a lower carb/paleo diet.
I would recommend keeping as much alkalinizing foods and beverages in your diet as possible. It's very easy. And besides the anti-cancer properties and anti-inflammatory benefits, you will look and feel better and have better workouts.
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Thanks for Sharing your experience brother. I experienced the same exact thing when I was 19. I had the same amazing experience you did, that's why I decided to go to Chiro school and make this my pofession.
My doc/mentor is seeing about 500 patients a week. He's already working 10 hour days just to get every appointment in, and he's finally at the point that he can't accept any new patients because he simply doesn't have enough time. Whenever I hang out in the office with him and observe, all I hear, for 10 hours a day, are stories like yours. That's why Ive dedicated my life to this profession. I've seen it help too many people. So much So that Its not even a choice for me now, I know this is what I HAVE to do.
props dude it's great to hear someone say they entered a profession to truly give of themselves and help others. it's people like you. who do things for the same reason, that make this world a good place. keep a it dude. respect.
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I have nothing personal against Chiro's but this post epitomizes the problem with this field.
Stick to manipulating peoples lower backs.
I really hope you never get cancer, but when you do, tell me how your Keto diet is going to cure you.
Pathetic ::)
Oh and by the way, the number of time medical students is spending "in class" is actually being reduced even further. The purpose of medical school is NOT to teach students everything there is to know about medicine, physiology, biology, chemistry etc. etc. etc. It is to teach students the fundamentals of how to think critically. A doctor's real learning comes from the 2 years of clerkship, 1 year of internship, 4 years of residency and 2 to 3 years of fellowship training.
Tell me how much "on the job" teaching did you have before you were cracking peoples spines to cure diabetes?
Most of what is taught in medical school is or will be outdated in 5 years.
Unlike Chiros, doctors use what they have learned in medical school as a base for the future by constantly staying up to date (no pun intended) through reputable peer reviewed journals.
Do you even know what a journal is or have one with an impact factor >2?????
LOL
You should probable re-write this, especially after you got your ass handed to you by Krankenstein.
You clearly show a tremendous lack of knowledge about my field, it's peer-reviewed journals, or how to make insightful posts.
Lastly, please show me where i am wrong regarding sugar, and cancer. You clearly haven't spent much time researching it. My points are not even debatable. You will realize this once you dig into a few books and spend some hours on pubmed. It scares me to think that you are even arguing with me about this and you could possibly be treating cancer patients one day without discussing this :-\ :-\ :-\
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Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?
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Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?
Depends. Since it most likely a maritime injury during your tenure with the Royal Ugandan Navy, I'm guessing your HMO wouldn't cover our treatment.
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Who would be an expert?
2 things:
1) Day to day in the trenches experience
2) Demonstrable success & social proof
In the strength & conditioning industry 3 names that come to mind are:
1) Our own "Coach" here on GB
2) Joe Defranco
3) and these guys www.dtsperformance.com
So someone practicing chiropractic medicine would not be an expert in S&C. But rather should strive to be an expert in Chiro care.
I am glad you clarified that. I would now ask this. Do these chiro's say they are experts or is that just a descriptor thrown out by you by what they say? Would someone who has been through many years of #1 and #2, then decided to become a chiro, still be considered an expert?
No, no you're misunderstanding. ROM, MMT is and should be within your scope and this is by no means a dig on Chiropratic, we have one on staff and getting ready to add a PT and have a great Ortho that I refer my athletes too (at Curland-Jobe) I'm saying if the client/patient fails with pain greater than a 5 in a particular plain and especially if there is "catching" during the test, then IMO (especially shoulder pain) should be referred out to an Ortho for a re-eval, X-ray then if warranted an MRI with or without contrast. It could be anything from RC irritation, to Tendonosis to labral, to a full thickness tear, etc.
I know a lot of Chiro's that insist on an X-ray before treatment just to avoid lawsuits in case they are treating the wrong problem.
My apologies then Joe, I misunderstood. I don't think the term re-eval would be appropriate but rather a second opinion. There are many orthopoedic tests that are simply just "pain present" dependent. Some are cessation of pain dependent (Bakody's vs. Reverse Bakody's). Any time you aren't 100% sure of your diagnosis, you refer out or do something to confirm or deny it. In my opinion I take issue with a chiro who insists on an x-ray prior to treatment just to avoid a lawsuit. There is no "medical necessity" in that. Patients can deny any services they want. Most don't understand this. You may be discharged from care with that doctor, but you are in charge of what is done to you.
Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?
No, thank you very much....there is the door.
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Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?
Try lifting weights, not In & Out burgers. :P
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I always told Chaos, if he keeps sticking strange things up his ass in such an aggressive manner it would eventually catch up to him. Lateral epicondylitis is a bitch.
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You can tell who takes himself far too serious in this thread. ;)
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You can tell who takes himself far too serious in this thread. ;)
:-*
(Check your PM, bitch.)
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stop training so damn much and maybe you wouldn't get so fucked up, athletes have injuries and surgery and treatments all the time to function well, ridiculous
No, thats incorrect. If an athlete is injured, its not because they're "training all the time" as in the weight room. If they are getting injured in the weight room its usually due to incorrect technique or poor programming. If an athlete has a non-collision injury on the field ie: Hamstring it generally falls on the S&C coach especially if team injury percentage is high. If you really want to see who the good S&C coaches are, look to their injured reserve.
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I am glad you clarified that. I would now ask this. Do these chiro's say they are experts or is that just a descriptor thrown out by you by what they say? Would someone who has been through many years of #1 and #2, then decided to become a chiro, still be considered an expert?
Someone who already has (#1 & #2) demonstrable success as a strength coach/trainer isn't going to want or need to be a chiro. He'll already be so successful with a thriving business he'll be content & fulfilled with that.
If he want's a chiro care he'll just hire one.
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LOL
You should probable re-write this, especially after you got your ass handed to you by Krankenstein.
You clearly show a tremendous lack of knowledge about my field, it's peer-reviewed journals, or how to make insightful posts.
Lastly, please show me where i am wrong regarding sugar, and cancer. You clearly haven't spent much time researching it. My points are not even debatable. You will realize this once you dig into a few books and spend some hours on pubmed. It scares me to think that you are even arguing with me about this and you could possibly be treating cancer patients one day without discussing this :-\ :-\ :-\
I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.
When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.
In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.
And yes, MOST of what I learned in medical school is completely out of date. The physiology and anatomy are the same but the treatments are completely different. Where was SORAFENIB for HCC 5 years ago, this class of drugs is revolutionizing chemotherapy and treatment of most solid tumors....but of course, the big bad medical industry is just fleesing it's consumers and they could have the same results from a little splenda right?
(http://www.journoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/homer.jpg)
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100426233455/simpsons/images/9/93/SpineOCylinder.png)
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Wow. This thread still going strong? I was too busy killing babies, stroking out people and curing cancer to notice. :D
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I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.
When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.
In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.
And yes, MOST of what I learned in medical school is completely out of date. The physiology and anatomy are the same but the treatments are completely different. Where was SORAFENIB for HCC 5 years ago, this class of drugs is revolutionizing chemotherapy and treatment of most solid tumors....but of course, the big bad medical industry is just fleesing it's consumers and they could have the same results from a little splenda right?
(http://www.journoblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/homer.jpg)
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100426233455/simpsons/images/9/93/SpineOCylinder.png)
I'm not trying to treat cancer Dr. Ether. But I can still have an educated discussion regarding its link to sugar. You're entitled to your opinion about my scope of practice. Luckily you don't legislate what I can or can not do. I still have the utmost respect for your field of medicine and see it as an absolute necessity in healthcare. But my points were spot on in regards to the nutritional aspect. You're the one who took cheap shots at me, as well as putting bullshit words into my mouth and twisting what I say....I'm not gonna get into a shit slinging match with you. You really don't appear to be addressing any of my points, just making brash generalizations.
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Someone who already has (#1 & #2) demonstrable success as a strength coach/trainer isn't going to want or need to be a chiro. He'll already be so successful with a thriving business he'll be content & fulfilled with that.
If he want's a chiro care he'll just hire one.
There are many that have walked away from 'thriving' careers to pursue other interests.
I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.
When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.
In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.
And yes, MOST of what I learned in medical school is completely out of date. The physiology and anatomy are the same but the treatments are completely different. Where was SORAFENIB for HCC 5 years ago, this class of drugs is revolutionizing chemotherapy and treatment of most solid tumors....but of course, the big bad medical industry is just fleesing it's consumers and they could have the same results from a little splenda right?
At what point did anyone ever say chiropractic care cures cancer? Do you deny that research has shown that cancer cells are obligate users of sugar? In addition, when did Chiro or I say that we can cure the 'serious' diseases. As far as I am concerned, 'real doctors' didn't do shit for my father...and there are a myriad of other things that are left to the 'real doctors' and they come up short. There are new drugs and surgeries coming out every month, year, or whatever. Congrats. I am glad I don't have to keep up on the drug interactions like a medical doctor does or a pharmacist. I do, however, check drug interactions when a patient comes into my office with a drug list longer than 2 - 3 in length. I wish I could give you the statistics of how many have had serious interaction warning when I checked them all out. Can I ask you how I should view the 'real' doctor who missed the diagnoses on the patient I mentioned earlier? I will tell you how I felt...I am glad that I got the diagnosis correct and that the mom had the confidence in me to look at her daughter when she knew something was wrong that 'icing' it wasn't the correct treatment.
The allopathic model has their drugs and 5 min exams billed out as a 99204...just great. Next time you encounter a 'real' doctor getting kick backs for prescribing one drug over another...smile and say "thank god he isn't a chiropractor"
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There are many that have walked away from 'thriving' careers to pursue other interests.
of course many people have ::) ::) ::)
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of course many people have ::) ::) ::)
Yes, many have. Note, I didn't single out people quitting to become chiropractors. I am saying in general. People don't always work in the field they are passionate about. Not sure how old you are, but I would bet if you asked people around you who have been in their line of work for many, many years if they are passionate about what they do you might be surprised by the responses. Many get caught up in the 'paycheck' and never go on to do things that make them happy.
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I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.
When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.
In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.
How about you damn med oncs start sending your HCCAs to me for RT instead of trying all these second and third line TKIs?!
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How about you damn med oncs start sending your HCCAs to me for RT instead of trying all these second and third line TKIs?!
I only used Sorafenib as an example. Obvioulsy, CK treatment would also qualify as an example of something that didn't even exist when I did medical school and we use it all the time.
But hell, why do we even exist when we could just switch all our patients to sweet n low and watch those tumors just melt away
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Most chiro's are incompetent, scamming fools.
THAT'S the problem.The shitty outweighs the good.
MY chiro is AMAZING. He has reduced my neck pain/stiffness 75% and fixed a foot problem that was causing severe pain which kept me from doing ANY cardio for three months. FIXED IT 100%!
I have sent him two patients and BOTH have told me that my doc has helped big time.
Find a GOOD CHIRO. A GOOD ONE.
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I only used Sorafenib as an example. Obvioulsy, CK treatment would also qualify as an example of something that didn't even exist when I did medical school and we use it all the time.
But hell, why do we even exist when we could just switch all our patients to sweet n low and watch those tumors just melt away
;D
Lol, you respond in the same butt hurt way as you do in your Palumbo threads.
Nobody said sweet and low cures cancer. Good luck with your practice doc.
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I only used Sorafenib as an example. Obvioulsy, CK treatment would also qualify as an example of something that didn't even exist when I did medical school and we use it all the time.
But hell, why do we even exist when we could just switch all our patients to sweet n low and watch those tumors just melt away
Really? Sweet and Low can do that???
"The initial recognition that cancer cells exhibit atypical metabolic characteristics can be traced to the pioneering work of Otto Warburg over the fi rst half of the twentieth
century ( 13–15 ). In the presence of oxygen, most normal tissues metabolize glucose to pyruvate through glycolysis, and then completely oxidize a large fraction of the generated pyruvate to carbon dioxide in the mitochondria through oxidative phosphorylation. Under anaerobic conditions, normal cells redirect glycolytic pyruvate away from mitochondrial oxidation and instead largely reduce it to lactate ( 10 ). The fundamental paradigm stemming from Warburg’s studies was that in contrast to normal cells, rapidly proliferating ascites tumors metabolized glucose to lactate under aerobic conditions despite this process being far less efficient (∼18-fold) in terms of net ATP production per molecule of glucose ( 10 ). This seemingly paradoxical phenomenon, termed the Warburg effect or aerobic glycolysis, has since been observed across several tumor types and often occurs in parallel with a marked increase in glucose uptake and consumption, as visualized—and clinically exploited—through the use of 18 F-deoxyglucose-positron emission tomography ( 16 )."
Aggressive carcinomas ferment glucose to lactate even in the presence of oxygen. This particular metabolism, termed aerobic glycolysis, the glycolytic phenotype, or the Warburg effect, was discovered by Nobel laureate Otto Warburg in the 1920s. Since these times, controversial discussions about the relevance of the fermentation of glucose by tumours took place; however, a majority of cancer researchers considered the Warburg effect as a non-causative epiphenomenon. Recent research demonstrated, that several common oncogenic events favour the expression of the glycolytic phenotype. Moreover, a suppression of the phenotypic features by either substrate limitation, pharmacological intervention, or genetic manipulation was found to mediate potent tumour-suppressive effects.
Now, in no way did I ever say refrain from any carbohydrate intake. I am merely saying that reduction in carbohydrates would be better served with a cancer patient. Looking at what my father was fed in the hospital while going through all his treatment pissed me off.
Why is it so difficult for you to just agree/concede that what I am saying is correct. Cancer cells are obligate glucose metabolizers.
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Yes, many have. Note, I didn't single out people quitting to become chiropractors. I am saying in general. People don't always work in the field they are passionate about. Not sure how old you are, but I would bet if you asked people around you who have been in their line of work for many, many years if they are passionate about what they do you might be surprised by the responses. Many get caught up in the 'paycheck' and never go on to do things that make them happy.
Maybe I missed the boat but I thought we were talking about expert strength & conditioning professions w/ a thriving business leaving it behind to start a career in chiropractic ???
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Maybe I missed the boat but I thought we were talking about expert strength & conditioning professions w/ a thriving business leaving it behind to start a career in chiropractic ???
It can happen with anything....Attorney leaving firm to start a business, Doctors quitting practice...etc. I had a patient who was a big exec with motorola. He left his job and opened coffee shops. Just because someone is an expert in any field doesn't mean that one day they might wake up and say "I think I have had enough of this". So, could they leave to become a chiro? Sure. Could they suddenly say they want to become a chef? Sure. You appear to think that leaving the strength and conditioning profession and entering the chiro profession is a step down.
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;D
Lol, you respond in the same butt hurt way as you do in your Palumbo threads.
Nobody said sweet and low cures cancer. Good luck with your practice doc.
Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6lsX_Z9O7oa-n7KdRIOoUzRdZkLrWjJO1JcFUsZy13FBr7irHtA)
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Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6lsX_Z9O7oa-n7KdRIOoUzRdZkLrWjJO1JcFUsZy13FBr7irHtA)
and we'll say hello to u n r buddy's at the health fair at the mall with ur bp n bone density screenings designed to get the masses in n get em drugged up.
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Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.
If he is at Target, why would he have to be the one to stop and say hello? Wouldn't you have to be the one who would do that being that he is already there? I am confused.
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Chiropractors are good people.
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Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6lsX_Z9O7oa-n7KdRIOoUzRdZkLrWjJO1JcFUsZy13FBr7irHtA)
Actually, that's NOT a lumbar spine since there is a superior costal facet present.
Hahahhahahahahhahahaha you're failing badly at this brother.
Let's start with baby steps: can you post a femur? Its a very large bone. Give it a shot! ;)
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Actually, that's NOT a lumbar spine since there is a superior costal facet present.
Hahahhahahahahhahahaha you're failing badly at this brother.
Let's start with baby steps: can you post a femur? Its a very large bone. Give it a shot! ;)
Damn you know your vertebral anatomy, i'll give you that!
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Out of curiosity, while you are telling your "patients" that their "western doctors" are all quacks and that a keto diet can easily accomplish what a liver transplant would.....what do you tell them right before you are about to crack their necks?
Objective To identify adverse effects of spinal manipulation.
Design Systematic review of papers published since 2001.
Setting Six electronic databases.
Main outcome measures Reports of adverse effects published between January 2001 and June 2006. There were no restrictions according to language of publication or research design of the reports.
Results The searches identified 32 case reports, four case series, two prospective series, three case-control studies and three surveys. In case reports or case series, more than 200 patients were suspected to have been seriously harmed. The most common serious adverse effects were due to vertebral artery dissections. The two prospective reports suggested that relatively mild adverse effects occur in 30% to 61% of all patients. The case-control studies suggested a causal relationship between spinal manipulation and the adverse effect. The survey data indicated that even serious adverse effects are rarely reported in the medical literature.
Conclusions Spinal manipulation, particularly when performed on the upper spine, is frequently associated with mild to moderate adverse effects. It can also result in serious complications such as vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke. Currently, the incidence of such events is not known. In the interest of patient safety we should reconsider our policy towards the routine use of spinal manipulation.
J R Soc Med. 2007 July; 100(7): 330–338.
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Damn you know your vertebral anatomy, i'll give you that!
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Out of curiosity, while you are telling your "patients" that their "western doctors" are all quacks and that a keto diet can easily accomplish what a liver transplant would.....what do you tell them right before you are about to
Here's the thing: I'm so confident and secure with my profession's role in healthcare that I dont feel obligated to crusade against my fellow colleagues. I have the utmost respect for all doctors. I will never bash allopathic practitioners simply for their title, whether I disagree with some of their methods or not.
I could also pull up pub med systematic reviews countering your review, as well as about a thousand that show some of the wonderful iatrogenic deaths caused by your profession. But I won't...it would be a waste of time.
Your ability to go on the defensive so quickly and take things so personally lead me to believe you aren't very confident in what you do?
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Why does every does every chiropractic discussion involve the medical field? The medical field is awesome. Sure u guys r killing people like its going out of style but u r also saving millions more than that. When people put their lives in your hands and they r coming to u with serious problems u are going to have your millions of cases of thankless miracles but your also going to have your collateral damage. I see that. And I applaud your profession. I'm very close and work very closely with a bunch of mds. Ur an uninformed insecure idiot if in this day and age as a practicing md u do not recognize the merits of chiropractic and u r prolly offending many of your patients without knowing it when u put is down. Because they r prolly not telling u they come to us. GDAM. What was my point? Jet Lag. Oh yeah. Why when chiropractic is brought up why does it always lead to an md vs Chiro topic? Chiropractic stands on its own. How many times does a medical discussion lead to talking about Chiro? Debating the merits of Chiro has little to do with the medical profession. Its kinda like if someone asks u how you like your new dodge ram someone else chimes in and compares it to a hot air balloon ride. Both forms of transportation sure but used for completely different purposes.
We all know the medical field is an option. Assuming the OP does too. He didnt ask Chiro vs MD. He asked what we think of Chiro. But I do understand. Like asking someone of they like oranges and instead of answering yes or no and giving a reason why they just say they like apples.
Ill
End by saying there r great chiros n weird ones just like any profession. No more no less than other professions. Find a good one usually by word of mouth. We r trained to recognize what we can and cannot treat and the best ones world closely w mds and will refer out if needed. But we also not only adjust. If u have questions about how to lead a healthier life we will answer those questions as best we know as well.
That's all for now. Typing on a iPhone sux
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Hey here's a cool fact. Did u all know that jack lalane was a Chiro n he kept it hidden because he was afraid he would be blacklisted by Hollywood back then. He only came out of the closet late in life.
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Very well said. The best DCs I know have very close relationships and friendships with MDs and have a healthy mutual respect that shows by the consistent referral rates between docs. Exactly how it should be.
Franco Columbo is a DC too 8)
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Here's the thing: I'm so confident and secure with my profession's role in healthcare that I dont feel obligated to crusade against my fellow colleagues. I have the utmost respect for all doctors. I will never bash allopathic practitioners simply for their title, whether I disagree with some of their methods or not.
I could also pull up pub med systematic reviews countering your review, as well as about a thousand that show some of the wonderful iatrogenic deaths caused by your profession. But I won't...it would be a waste of time.
Your ability to go on the defensive so quickly and take things so personally lead me to believe you aren't very confident in what you do?
Quite the contrary
I'm on call all week, in between cases, bored as fucc
I love messing with "Allied health practitioners"
The only chiropractor I ever knew tried to get into medical school 4 years running, when all else failed law school and dentistry turned him down, he had no choice but to resort to your profession.
Have a great day Dr. Steve.
Oh, and by the way, not only did he get in on his first try he graduated at the top of the class!
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Something else. In this day and age of frivolous lawsuits and sky rocketing malpractice insurance premiums paid by docs. Do u know that malpractice insurance for chiros is less per year than many people's car insurance? I pay about 12 dollars a year. U know why? Cuz the chance of u being hurt by a chiropractor is infinitesimal. Insurance companies have done the research and they they have years of experience covering docs. So u can submit any bulshit studies saying were killing and stroking people out when the truth is if it were the case the first people that would acknowledge would be the insurance carriers. They know those lies about us murdering and permanently damaging our patients is not true.
I was talking with a highly successful attorney who says he never accepts clients who claim guys were hurt by chiros. He said there is no money in it. Because nine times out of ten the case is thrown out or the jury finds the Chiro didn't hurt them.
12 hundred dollars a year lol. Not 12!
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Something else. In this day and age of frivolous lawsuits and sky rocketing malpractice insurance premiums paid by docs. Do u know that malpractice insurance for chiros is less per year than many people's car insurance? I pay about 12 dollars a year. U know why? Cuz the chance of u being hurt by a chiropractor is infinitesimal. Insurance companies have done the research and they they have years of experience covering docs. So u can submit any bulshit studies saying were killing and stroking people out when the truth is if it were the case the first people that would acknowledge would be the insurance carriers. They know those lies about us murdering and permanently damaging our patients is not true.
I was talking with a highly successful attorney who says he never accepts clients who claim guys were hurt by chiros. He said there is no money in it. Because nine times out of ten the case is thrown out or the jury finds the Chiro didn't hurt them.
12 hundred dollars a year lol. Not 12!
When you massage someone's foot versus taking out an organ, no shit there are more mistakes!
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Quite the contrary
I'm on call all week, in between cases, bored as fucc
I love messing with "Allied health practitioners"
The only chiropractor I ever knew tried to get into medical school 4 years running, when all else failed law school and dentistry turned him down, he had no choice but to resort to your profession.
Have a great day Dr. Steve.
Oh, and by the way, not only did he get in on his first try he graduated at the top of the class!
sounds like a true getbigger
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When you massage someone's foot versus taking out an organ, no shit there are more mistakes!
wait weren't u saying we were killing everyone via cervical adjustments? Get ur argument straight dumbass.
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Quite the contrary
I'm on call all week, in between cases, bored as fucc
I love messing with "Allied health practitioners"
What's your take on the strong influx of both Nurse practitioners and Physician Assistants by way of the Affordable care act?
Do you find that their (PA & NP) clinical skillsets are strong enough to hang with the big boys of medicine?
"1"
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Wtf? How many chiroquackers are on getbig ???
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Haha. I'm starting to get a clearer picture of u. Taking out ur organ while ur bored at work. Wut an idiot.
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I am sorry, but if I am ever diagnosed with cancer, I am going to an oncologist, not a chiropractor or anything else.
I have no problems with adjunct forms of treatment, but I will take medically prescribed treatment by an oncologist over anything else.
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What's your take on the strong influx of both Nurse practitioners and Physician Assistants by way of the Affordable care act?
Do you find that their (PA & NP) clinical skillsets are strong enough to hang with the big boys of medicine?
"1"
I think they are a very good thing
Surgeons and other doctors do the little things very badly and many of these tasks; rounding on patients, checking bloodwork, drug interactions etc can be done better by them
They are very well trained and for the most part very eager to learn
Chiros have no clue what real medicine is or to take care of an actual sick patient, I would wager most would shit their pants if they ever saw a really sick cancer patient but are the first to point their fingers when treatments fail Haha. I'm starting to get a clearer picture of u. Taking out ur organ while ur bored at work. Wut an idiot.
Call cases for an experienced physician and very boring
Kind of like waxing a back instead of cracking it? Sorry couldn't think of a more suitable comparison
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I am sorry, but if I am ever diagnosed with cancer, I am going to an oncologist, not a chiropractor or anything else.
I have no problems with adjunct forms of treatment, but I will take medically prescribed treatment by an oncologist over anything else.
Chiropractors don't treat cancer directly.
Hope this helps. 8)
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I think they are a very good thing
Surgeons and other doctors do the little things very badly and many of these tasks; rounding on patients, checking bloodwork, drug interactions etc can be done better by them
They are very well trained and for the most part very eager to learn
Chiros have no clue what real medicine is or to take care of an actual sick patient, I would wager most would shit their pants if they ever saw a really sick cancer patient but are the first to point their fingers when treatments fail
Call cases for an experienced physician and very boring
Kind of like waxing a back instead of cracking it? Sorry couldn't think of a more suitable comparison
Tell us...what was the name of the chiropractic student who slept with your girlfriend while you were in med school. Tell us who hurt you.
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Chiropractors don't treat cancer directly.
Hope this helps. 8)
I know that. I was just saying that in terms of medical diagnoses, cancer or anything else, I would choose a medical doctor first, then implement other forms of treatment as needed.
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I think they are a very good thing
Surgeons and other doctors do the little things very badly and many of these tasks; rounding on patients, checking bloodwork, drug interactions etc can be done better by them
They are very well trained and for the most part very eager to learn
My sister-in-law is a Cardiac Nurse Practitioner and she seems to love what she does. She tells me that the Cardiologists in her Hospital are very fond of her presence and work provided.
I am trying to push my nephew (presently doing undergrad) to possibly consider a career as either a Physician's Assistant or Nurse Practitioner. I think those two groups (based on my limited interactions with them), seem to have a solid grasp of internal medicine/primary medicine and appear to be easily trainable for much more specialized disciplines (Cardiac, pulmonary, GI etc.). Ideally, he would go to Med School, but the kid lacks the stamina (I think) to stay put for more than 8 years. I think those other tacks (pa, np) take about 6-7 years to obtain their degrees (undergrad + grad), so it might work for him if he can concentrate long enough.
Chiros have no clue what real medicine is or to take care of an actual sick patient, I would wager most would shit their pants if they ever saw a really sick cancer patient but are the first to point their fingers when treatments fail
My take on Chiropractors is that they are sort of like the lite-version of orthopedists, but with no surgical or prescriptive rights/privileges. Generally speaking, I see them similar to that of optometrists in comparison to ophthalmologists (The optometrist being able to perform the basic examinations that the ophthalmologist can, but with the restriction of not being able to perform surgery/invasive procedures or prescribe controlled substances).
I know that an orthopedic surgeon gets well over 14-15 years of training (4 yrs undergrad + 4 years of med school + 5 years of ortho residency + 1-2 years of fellowship in their designated area of specialty like knee, hips or spine etc.) and while the chiropractor might have a little less training than that, I am sure they can provide patients with many good alternatives for their bone, muscle and joint injuries.
I also don't think that any patient would ever go to a chiropractor for any medical issue that isn't directly related to pathological presentation involving bones, joints, ligaments, tendons and/or muscles. I mean, the chiros on board can correct me if I am wrong, but why would a patient go to a chiro for an internal medicine, surgical, cardiac, GI, pulmonary, neurological or even dermatological issue? I think the average consumer is smart enough to differentiate what medical specialists are there for and what Chiropractors can offer to them, as possibly an alternative to orthopedic surgery.
If I am wrong in my assumption that Chiro's only provide care towards injuries or disorders of the skeletal system and associated muscles, joints, and ligaments, please let me know gentlemen. I am not taking sides, just providing my basic view here.
"1"
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Where does Vince Goodrum fit into the mix?
Perhaps he and his website fall between Neurosurgeon and orthopedic surgeon.
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My sister-in-law is a Cardiac Nurse Practitioner and she seems to love what she does. She tells me that the Cardiologists in her Hospital are very fond of her presence and work provided.
I am trying to push my nephew (presently doing undergrad) to possibly consider a career as either a Physician's Assistant or Nurse Practitioner. I think those two groups (based on my limited interactions with them), seem to have a solid grasp of internal medicine/primary medicine and appear to be easily trainable for much more specialized disciplines (Cardiac, pulmonary, GI etc.). Ideally, he would go to Med School, but the kid lacks the stamina (I think) to stay put for more than 8 years. I think those other tacks (pa, np) take about 6-7 years to obtain their degrees (undergrad + grad), so it might work for him if he can concentrate long enough.
My take on Chiropractors is that they are sort of like the lite-version of orthopedists, but with no surgical or prescriptive rights/privileges. Generally speaking, I see them similar to that of optometrists in comparison to ophthalmologists (The optometrist being able to perform the basic examinations that the ophthalmologist can, but with the restriction of not being able to perform surgery/invasive procedures or prescribe controlled substances).
I know that an orthopedic surgeon gets well over 14-15 years of training (4 yrs undergrad + 4 years of med school + 5 years of ortho residency + 1-2 years of fellowship in their designated area of specialty like knee, hips or spine etc.) and while the chiropractor might have a little less training than that, I am sure they can provide patients with many good alternatives for their bone, muscle and joint injuries.
I also don't think that any patient would ever go to a chiropractor for any medical issue that isn't directly related to pathological presentation involving bones, joints, ligaments, tendons and/or muscles. I mean, the chiros on board can correct me if I am wrong, but why would a patient go to a chiro for an internal medicine, surgical, cardiac, GI, pulmonary, neurological or even dermatological issue? I think the average consumer is smart enough to differentiate what medical specialists are there for and what Chiropractors can offer to them, as possibly an alternative to orthopedic surgery.
If I am wrong in my assumption that Chiro's only provide care towards injuries or disorders of the skeletal system and associated muscles, joints, and ligaments, please let me know gentlemen. I am not taking sides, just providing my basic view here.
"1"
Excellent post
I work w PAs and NPs and LOVE them
They take care of all the things I hate doing and quite frankly do them better than I ever would
You wouldnt believe the crap patients tell me their herbalist, chiro, acupuncturist told them about cancer care.
I agree Chiros have their role, the good ones know this and the bad ones don't and try to meddle into serious medical issues with devastating consequences
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I know that. I was just saying that in terms of medical diagnoses, cancer or anything else, I would choose a medical doctor first, then implement other forms of treatment as needed.
well yeah that's kind of the norm for most people. And chiros don't treat cancer. A least none that I know of. I have had hundreds of patients with cancer over the years however.
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well yeah that's kind of the norm for most people. And chiros don't treat cancer. A least none that I know of. I have had hundreds of patients with cancer over the years however.
Yes, I know they don't. My example was a hyperbole.
You would be surprised what some people do instead of seeking medical care. :-\
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My sister-in-law is a Cardiac Nurse Practitioner and she seems to love what she does. She tells me that the Cardiologists in her Hospital are very fond of her presence and work provided.
I am trying to push my nephew (presently doing undergrad) to possibly consider a career as either a Physician's Assistant or Nurse Practitioner. I think those two groups (based on my limited interactions with them), seem to have a solid grasp of internal medicine/primary medicine and appear to be easily trainable for much more specialized disciplines (Cardiac, pulmonary, GI etc.). Ideally, he would go to Med School, but the kid lacks the stamina (I think) to stay put for more than 8 years. I think those other tacks (pa, np) take about 6-7 years to obtain their degrees (undergrad + grad), so it might work for him if he can concentrate long enough.
My take on Chiropractors is that they are sort of like the lite-version of orthopedists, but with no surgical or prescriptive rights/privileges. Generally speaking, I see them similar to that of optometrists in comparison to ophthalmologists (The optometrist being able to perform the basic examinations that the ophthalmologist can, but with the restriction of not being able to perform surgery/invasive procedures or prescribe controlled substances).
I know that an orthopedic surgeon gets well over 14-15 years of training (4 yrs undergrad + 4 years of med school + 5 years of ortho residency + 1-2 years of fellowship in their designated area of specialty like knee, hips or spine etc.) and while the chiropractor might have a little less training than that, I am sure they can provide patients with many good alternatives for their bone, muscle and joint injuries.
I also don't think that any patient would ever go to a chiropractor for any medical issue that isn't directly related to pathological presentation involving bones, joints, ligaments, tendons and/or muscles. I mean, the chiros on board can correct me if I am wrong, but why would a patient go to a chiro for an internal medicine, surgical, cardiac, GI, pulmonary, neurological or even dermatological issue? I think the average consumer is smart enough to differentiate what medical specialists are there for and what Chiropractors can offer to them, as possibly an alternative to orthopedic surgery.
If I am wrong in my assumption that Chiro's only provide care towards injuries or disorders of the skeletal system and associated muscles, joints, and ligaments, please let me know gentlemen. I am not taking sides, just providing my basic view here.
"1"
Okay. We're not, Ortho Lites cuz for the most part we are doing something completely different. Only a chiropractor has extensive training in the chiropractic adjustment. MDs can argue that they take a weekend course in adjusting but if I need my benz repainted I'm not taking it to someone who's gonna paint it with a roller. I'm gonna take it to someone who has been painting cars for a long time has a great rep and knows what they r doing in their field. Fact is most orthos, espeically the up and coming ones really like us a lot. I get constant referals from them. Successful orthos are way to busy to learn how to adjust patients and frankly they do not care to so again my point is we are completely different. Another example would be if you have a septic problem and you called two plumbers, one specializes in home remodels and indoor plumbing...the other specializes in septic only. Who would u use? The remodel guy may say, yeah I've done a few septics in my time etc. You would go with the guy who is extensible trained in fixing that problem and doing it everyday.
We are adjusting the spine. Something orthos at least are not extensively trained and or experienced in.
U may say well your both treating the spine. But we are treating subluxations which a much easier way to understand it is a fixation of the particular jt. so although its all the same part of the "Plumbing" its a condition that a chiro treats day in and day out.
Secondly like I said Orthos are too busy for that shit. They are full with more surgeries than most of them can handle. And good ones will only operate when absolutely necessary and routinely at least the ones I know refer their pts to chiros. If that fails then surgery is always an option.
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My sister-in-law is a Cardiac Nurse Practitioner and she seems to love what she does. She tells me that the Cardiologists in her Hospital are very fond of her presence and work provided.
I am trying to push my nephew (presently doing undergrad) to possibly consider a career as either a Physician's Assistant or Nurse Practitioner. I think those two groups (based on my limited interactions with them), seem to have a solid grasp of internal medicine/primary medicine and appear to be easily trainable for much more specialized disciplines (Cardiac, pulmonary, GI etc.). Ideally, he would go to Med School, but the kid lacks the stamina (I think) to stay put for more than 8 years. I think those other tacks (pa, np) take about 6-7 years to obtain their degrees (undergrad + grad), so it might work for him if he can concentrate long enough.
My take on Chiropractors is that they are sort of like the lite-version of orthopedists, but with no surgical or prescriptive rights/privileges. Generally speaking, I see them similar to that of optometrists in comparison to ophthalmologists (The optometrist being able to perform the basic examinations that the ophthalmologist can, but with the restriction of not being able to perform surgery/invasive procedures or prescribe controlled substances).
I know that an orthopedic surgeon gets well over 14-15 years of training (4 yrs undergrad + 4 years of med school + 5 years of ortho residency + 1-2 years of fellowship in their designated area of specialty like knee, hips or spine etc.) and while the chiropractor might have a little less training than that, I am sure they can provide patients with many good alternatives for their bone, muscle and joint injuries.
I also don't think that any patient would ever go to a chiropractor for any medical issue that isn't directly related to pathological presentation involving bones, joints, ligaments, tendons and/or muscles. I mean, the chiros on board can correct me if I am wrong, but why would a patient go to a chiro for an internal medicine, surgical, cardiac, GI, pulmonary, neurological or even dermatological issue? I think the average consumer is smart enough to differentiate what medical specialists are there for and what Chiropractors can offer to them, as possibly an alternative to orthopedic surgery.
If I am wrong in my assumption that Chiro's only provide care towards injuries or disorders of the skeletal system and associated muscles, joints, and ligaments, please let me know gentlemen. I am not taking sides, just providing my basic view here.
"1"
To answer the second part of your question, most chiros don't treat anything but the spine. For a chiro to say they treat organ or internal medicine problems is not only unethical it is unlawful in most states that I know of. What usually happens though is a pt comes in for a musculo-skeletal problem and is treated, then they say, hey doc ever since I've been here my allergies aren't nearly as bad, or my acid reflux isn't as bad as it used to be, or my i no longer wet the bed (yes adults), or wutever.
When you all hear the word chiropractic your defenses immediately go up so u set up barriers in your belief system saying the patients r crazy or it never happened or we r brain washing them. Yet we all know that even reg exercise can boost the immune system and reboot the homeostasis of the body and improvements in your health unrelated to weight loss or muscle mass can be seen.
Sam w chiro. If you have pressure on your nervous system then taking that pressure of can not only help you with the musculo-skeletal condition you have come in with but u may see an improvement in your over all health as well.
But no, any chiro that says they treat those conditions is wrong and should be called on it.
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Here's a great example of someone getting relief from something unexpected from an adjustment. Explain it away all u want. The patient and the doc know the truth.
Note also that the chiro never said or intended to treat his blind eye and was shocked as hell when the pts eye sight returned. This is the type of thing I am talking about that chiros see on a daily basis. Not blind eyes healing but a gamut of overall health conditions improving by getting adjusted.
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This thread is like arguing politics or religion.
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They don't lift.
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This thread is like arguing politics or religion.
yup. to me i'm not even really taking it too srs. Just having fun n stating a case. Not really trying to convince anyone of anything but I didn't want to just stand by and not have the other side of the story heard when my profession is being bashed but this is getbig after all and bashing a required!
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I also don't think that any patient would ever go to a chiropractor for any medical issue that isn't directly related to pathological presentation involving bones, joints, ligaments, tendons and/or muscles. I mean, the chiros on board can correct me if I am wrong, but why would a patient go to a chiro for an internal medicine, surgical, cardiac, GI, pulmonary, neurological or even dermatological issue? I think the average consumer is smart enough to differentiate what medical specialists are there for and what Chiropractors can offer to them, as possibly an alternative to orthopedic surgery.
If I am wrong in my assumption that Chiro's only provide care towards injuries or disorders of the skeletal system and associated muscles, joints, and ligaments, please let me know gentlemen. I am not taking sides, just providing my basic view here.
"1"
Not a chiro but I've been to several and some absolutely tell you that any problems you have in your body is directly due to the spine and by adjusting the spine can remedy the issue.
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Not a chiro but I've been to several and some absolutely tell you that any problems you have in your body is directly due to the spine and by adjusting the spine can remedy the issue.
Silk must be one of the honest chiropractors out there
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Quite the contrary
I'm on call all week, in between cases, bored as fucc
I love messing with "Allied health practitioners"
The only chiropractor I ever knew tried to get into medical school 4 years running, when all else failed law school and dentistry turned him down, he had no choice but to resort to your profession.
Have a great day Dr. Steve.
Oh, and by the way, not only did he get in on his first try he graduated at the top of the class!
So just by the basis that this guy wanted to be a Doctor...ANY kind of Doctor...you are saying Chiropractors are bad. Oh, and he had no other choice? What McDonalds didn't want him? He couldnt do ANYTHING else in his life? Again, sounds like the guy had no real idea what he wanted to do in life. ::) Congrats on being on call so much. I am erecting a shrine to you as we speak.
When you massage someone's foot versus taking out an organ, no shit there are more mistakes!
Who massaged someone's foot? If you were poking at me tiny, if you read the MD was the one who missed the diagnosis. Try again.
I am sorry, but if I am ever diagnosed with cancer, I am going to an oncologist, not a chiropractor or anything else.
I have no problems with adjunct forms of treatment, but I will take medically prescribed treatment by an oncologist over anything else.
At what point in this thread has ANYONE said get adjusted if you are needing treatment for cancer? Please show me. ???
I think they are a very good thing
Surgeons and other doctors do the little things very badly and many of these tasks; rounding on patients, checking bloodwork, drug interactions etc can be done better by them
They are very well trained and for the most part very eager to learn
Chiros have no clue what real medicine is or to take care of an actual sick patient, I would wager most would shit their pants if they ever saw a really sick cancer patient but are the first to point their fingers when treatments fail
Call cases for an experienced physician and very boring
Kind of like waxing a back instead of cracking it? Sorry couldn't think of a more suitable comparison
At this point I am going to kindly tell you to go fuck yourself and get off your high horse. What real medicine is? You mean the kind that has cause MILLIONS of death each year due to wrong prescriptions or interactions? How about the unwarranted and excessive surgeries performed each year? Or how about the number of deaths by these same surgeries?
Lastly...a TRUE and SERIOUS fuck you to the comment about not ever seeing a really sick cancer patient. Listen...and listen well asshole, I was right there with my father....stage IV...lung, brain, and stomach. Saw him whither away in front of my eyes. As I said earlier, the man had a pair of stones to decide to come home instead of just live his remaining days in the hospital. I don't have to be a chiro to point a finger at your fucking profession when it comes to failed treatments yet people like you will continue to say "well, you never know with cases like this". At least I know when to tell a patient "I don't think what I am doing is helping". The constant high and mighty attitude many in your profession exhibit (you being one of them) is laughable.
I would love to have been face to face with you when you said that line about not ever seeing a real sick cancer patient. YOu would have needed a fellow college after that. Make no mistake about it. Whatever respect I may have had for you and what you do just went out the window. There is no meltdown...there is blunt speaking there chief.
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how did humans manage to survive for so long without "chiropractors" ? ::) Probably because they didnt need them. Scam artists, all of them. Why isnt massage considered a medicine too then?
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I also don't think that any patient would ever go to a chiropractor for any medical issue that isn't directly related to pathological presentation involving bones, joints, ligaments, tendons and/or muscles. I mean, the chiros on board can correct me if I am wrong, but why would a patient go to a chiro for an internal medicine, surgical, cardiac, GI, pulmonary, neurological or even dermatological issue? I think the average consumer is smart enough to differentiate what medical specialists are there for and what Chiropractors can offer to them, as possibly an alternative to orthopedic surgery.
If I am wrong in my assumption that Chiro's only provide care towards injuries or disorders of the skeletal system and associated muscles, joints, and ligaments, please let me know gentlemen. I am not taking sides, just providing my basic view here.
"1"
Let me say this. In nearly 14yrs I have NEVER had a patient come to me with a broken bone (besides someone coming in not sure if they had 'done something to their finger at home', laceration, "lump" in skin, strange rash, cardiac related issue, etc. I have had my share of post surgical stuff (laminectomy, harrington rods, etc). I had one patient with osteosarcoma but that was diagnosed prior to me seeing him. I have seen aortic repair, pace makers, etc.
Yes, people know when to see us...and when to see the MD. I have never heard of someone going to a chiro when they should see an MD for serious shit. OMR...after the comments by Etherfuck...I am done with this thread.
Oh, and Uberman....you are right. Also, how did we survive without without 'modern' medicine too? Amazing we made it 2000+yrs without the need for Celebrex, Lipitor, Zanax, Wellbutrin, triple bypass surgeries, breast implants, etc etc etc. Whoop....hang on, I have another spinal cord I need to sever. Thanks for the reminder.
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Not a chiro but I've been to several and some absolutely tell you that any problems you have in your body is directly due to the spine and by adjusting the spine can remedy the issue.
True, and those are the ones who I wish would stop saying that. But let me ask you this...are you just how far reaching the nervous system control is in the body? If not, you may want to learn.
On the other side, you have MD's that will barely look at you and just write something on a prescription pad so that you can go away because you don't have a "serious enough" problem.
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professional drug peddlers
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OMR...after the comments by Etherfuck...I am done with this thread.
Ether has his opinions regarding Chiropractors and they are just that, opinions.
Don't allow for his opinions to anger you. Even though an attack at your chosen profession is enough to incite an insightful response filled with passion and fervor, realize that he is probably just trying to mess with you in order to garner this exact reaction.
If you make an honest living by way of your practice, who is to say otherwise regarding the validity of your profession?
Patients come to you for a reason and further reinforce that reason by returning for 2nd and 3rd visits.
Take it for what it is, simply banter..
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P.S. Take what I do for example (Investment Banking), everyone calls us thieves, liars, the detriment of all western civilizations etc. If I were to take every derogatory stab taken at my chosen profession to heart, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
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Not gonna try to convince people to "believe" in anything, or engage in pointless arguments. As far as I'm concerned, the evidence for what my profession does is so convincing that I don't need a "faith" to see what we do. Dont forget mainstream medicine's origins included blood-letting, and drilling holes in people's skulls to relieve evil spirits. There is plenty of peer reviewed literature being published monthly that backs what we do.
PS: you're an asshole Raymondo but still one of my favorites here :D
My wife is currently going to a chiropractor. I HAVE heard a few horror stories though. I admittedly don't know much about it. Why aren't chiropractors "official"?
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Ether has his opinions regarding Chiropractors and they are just that, opinions.
Don't allow for his opinions to anger you. Even though an attack at your chosen profession is enough to incite an insightful response filled with passion and fervor, realize that he is probably just trying to mess with you in order to garner this exact reaction.
If you make an honest living by way of your practice, who is to say otherwise regarding the validity of your profession?
Patients come to you for a reason and further reinforce that reason by returning for 2nd and 3rd visits.
Take it for what it is, simply banter..
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P.S. Take what I do for example (Investment Banking), everyone calls us thieves, liars, the detriment of all western civilizations etc. If I were to take every derogatory stab taken at my chosen profession to heart, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
Sorry, I will take the cancer comment personally. That had nothing to do with my profession. That was pure arrogance. Like he would have any business saying that to ANYONE that they would shit if they saw a really sick cancer patient. One of the posters in this thread has a family member with cancer. Would he say that to that person? Did I just drop my father off at the hospital front door and say "Take care dad, see you when you get better. You know I would shit if I saw you really sick"? Nope...that's not how it was. Was he there when I was helping my father go to the bathroom? Was he there when my father was throwing up from treatment? Nope. I was. Did I shit my pants? Nope. Not once...fuck him
I don't get bent out of shape on every comment. I will provide rebuttal and points to the contrary. This guy is crossing the line in my opinion.
I do not see it as simple banter. I can be respectful and provide logical responses to things. That was complete bullshit. If he wanted that reaction (which I don't think is the case) he got it. The only thing is that it was simply the high and mighty way about him that has become more and more evident as this goes along.
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Sorry, I will take the cancer comment personally. That had nothing to do with my profession. That was pure arrogance. Like he would have any business saying that to ANYONE that they would shit if they saw a really sick cancer patient. One of the posters in this thread has a family member with cancer. Would he say that to that person? Did I just drop my father off at the hospital front door and say "Take care dad, see you when you get better. You know I would shit if I saw you really sick"? Nope...that's not how it was. Was he there when I was helping my father go to the bathroom? Was he there when my father was throwing up from treatment? Nope. I was. Did I shit my pants? Nope. Not once...fuck him
I think what he meant was that a Chiropractor would shit his pants if he was faced with having to medically manage the care provided to a cancer patient (i.e. determine which labs to run, which scans to order, which chemo to select, how much radiation to administer, what surgery to perform in order to remove tumors, lymph nodes and/or possibly portions of an organ if not the entire organ, when to stop treatment and refer to hospice etc.). I don't think he meant that you would lose your shit when having to care for (directly in your case as with your father) someone with cancer in a humane fashion which calls for a generous amount of sympathy. His stance was based more upon the idea of a chiropractor being faced with having to diagnose and properly treat a cancer patient by way of pharmaceutical and surgical intervention.
I could be wrong, but his stab was at the limited scope of practice a chiropractor would have if faced with a cancer patient in a clinical setting.
*Let me be clear*... If an internal medicine doctor, cardiologist, gastroenterologist, pulmonologist or even dermatologist were faced with medically managing the COMPLETE care of a patient with advanced stage metastatic cancer, they too would be shitting in their pants INDIVIDUALLY.
THAT is why the medical model calls for the patient to be cared for by various specialists. If an end-stage cancer patient presents with left-ventricular hypertrophy, atelectasis of the lung, an acute case of diverticulitis and a sudden onset of psoriasis, GUESS WHAT!?!
.
.
Instead of just an Oncologist treating the patient, you will have a cardiologist, pulmonologist, gastroenterologist and dermatologist ALL making rounds on this patient to provide both their recommendations and implement pharmaceutical treatments, because if not for their united care towards the patient, they would each INDIVIDUALLY SHIT THEIR PANTS if they had to care for all of this patient's problems on their own.
Again, I could be completely wrong..
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True, and those are the ones who I wish would stop saying that. But let me ask you this...are you just how far reaching the nervous system control is in the body? If not, you may want to learn.
On the other side, you have MD's that will barely look at you and just write something on a prescription pad so that you can go away because you don't have a "serious enough" problem.
I actually agree with you on both those counts.
Relax brudda, you're getting way too worked up over this.
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Krankystein pounding the tren these days.
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Krankystein pounding the tren these days.
::) Chaos still pounding little farm animals these days
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::) Chaos still pounding little farm animals these days
You need a hug, bro ???
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So just by the basis that this guy wanted to be a Doctor...ANY kind of Doctor...you are saying Chiropractors are bad. Oh, and he had no other choice? What McDonalds didn't want him? He couldnt do ANYTHING else in his life? Again, sounds like the guy had no real idea what he wanted to do in life. ::) Congrats on being on call so much. I am erecting a shrine to you as we speak.
Who massaged someone's foot? If you were poking at me tiny, if you read the MD was the one who missed the diagnosis. Try again.
At what point in this thread has ANYONE said get adjusted if you are needing treatment for cancer? Please show me. ???
At this point I am going to kindly tell you to go fuck yourself and get off your high horse. What real medicine is? You mean the kind that has cause MILLIONS of death each year due to wrong prescriptions or interactions? How about the unwarranted and excessive surgeries performed each year? Or how about the number of deaths by these same surgeries?
Lastly...a TRUE and SERIOUS fuck you to the comment about not ever seeing a really sick cancer patient. Listen...and listen well asshole, I was right there with my father....stage IV...lung, brain, and stomach. Saw him whither away in front of my eyes. As I said earlier, the man had a pair of stones to decide to come home instead of just live his remaining days in the hospital. I don't have to be a chiro to point a finger at your fucking profession when it comes to failed treatments yet people like you will continue to say "well, you never know with cases like this". At least I know when to tell a patient "I don't think what I am doing is helping". The constant high and mighty attitude many in your profession exhibit (you being one of them) is laughable.
I would love to have been face to face with you when you said that line about not ever seeing a real sick cancer patient. YOu would have needed a fellow college after that. Make no mistake about it. Whatever respect I may have had for you and what you do just went out the window. There is no meltdown...there is blunt speaking there chief.
Damn dude, it's a message board.
Sorry about your dad.
Yes, I am an arrogant prick with a god complex. Find someone in my profession who isn't and that person is a saint or very bad at what they do.
Either way, chiropractic seems like a very very shady way to earn a buck but if you are helping people than more power to you. However, I will continue to belittle the profession any time one of my patients says they got advice about cancer care from people in your field.
That's all from me in this thread
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Damn dude, it's a message board.
Sorry about your dad.
Yes, I am an arrogant prick with a god complex. Find someone in my profession who isn't and that person is a saint or very bad at what they do.
Either way, chiropractic seems like a very very shady way to earn a buck but if you are helping people than more power to you. However, I will continue to belittle the profession any time one of my patients says they got advice about cancer care from people in your field.
That's all from me in this thread
Yeah, its a message board...so what. You can make all the negative comments you want about my profession and I will be able to counter it with stuff about yours. You do what you do, I do what I do. As far as god complex and finding one who isn't. I have personally treated the head of an ER from the Quad Cities. Was as nice as anyone could ever hope. Saint? Nope...the guy fucked around on his wife a lot. When I was in Arizona I treated an ortho surgeon who owned three clinics. The guy had a sick sense of humor but no god complex.
You can say what I do is shady, but the bottom line is I treat ethically and with all due diligence. I treat with medical necessity and no more. In fact, I am personally on a prominent review board for insurance companies. I review notes and bills for them and help determine if someone is doing the right thing or not. I want the guys who are bad examples out of practice.
Continue to belittle the guy who says he can cure cancer from an adjustment. In fact, give me a name and I will reach out to that states review board and fuck the guy myself. Do not, however, belittle a profession because of it. Ever hear the statement "Throwing the baby out with the bath water"? How about I lump all you idiots under the same umbrella for operating on the WRONG extremity next time? You continue to ignore how my "shady" profession diagnosed the problem with that girl when your "god-like" one wanted to just have her ice it. Sit there and type away....or not. I have helped my share of people when they were fed up with their MD's NOT helping them, and I will continue to do so (thankfully) without your approval....but with their thanks.
P.S. You can continue to fuck off. The apology was dismissed, just like you.
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Kranky is very serious here. We may need Chiroflex to intervene before he busts a blood vessel and needs ether to save him! :o
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Yeah, its a message board...so what. You can make all the negative comments you want about my profession and I will be able to counter it with stuff about yours. You do what you do, I do what I do. As far as god complex and finding one who isn't. I have personally treated the head of an ER from the Quad Cities. Was as nice as anyone could ever hope. Saint? Nope...the guy fucked around on his wife a lot. When I was in Arizona I treated an ortho surgeon who owned three clinics. The guy had a sick sense of humor but no god complex.
You can say what I do is shady, but the bottom line is I treat ethically and with all due diligence. I treat with medical necessity and no more. In fact, I am personally on a prominent review board for insurance companies. I review notes and bills for them and help determine if someone is doing the right thing or not. I want the guys who are bad examples out of practice.
Continue to belittle the guy who says he can cure cancer from an adjustment. In fact, give me a name and I will reach out to that states review board and fuck the guy myself. Do not, however, belittle a profession because of it. Ever hear the statement "Throwing the baby out with the bath water"? How about I lump all you idiots under the same umbrella for operating on the WRONG extremity next time? You continue to ignore how my "shady" profession diagnosed the problem with that girl when your "god-like" one wanted to just have her ice it. Sit there and type away....or not. I have helped my share of people when they were fed up with their MD's NOT helping them, and I will continue to do so (thankfully) without your approval....but with their thanks.
P.S. You can continue to fuck off. The apology was dismissed, just like you.
Sit back and take a break he is manipulating you no need to being getting out of place, don't sublux...fuck.
How come there is nogood research on pubmed about chiros? or is there?
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CHIROS CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS.
I once had a 22 year old come through the ER following aggressive chiropractic manipulation of his neck. He was comatose and following his "visit" with the chiropractor had developed dissection of both vertebral arteries (which course through the bony structures of the cervical spine).
HE DIED.
I TEND TO SHY AWAY FROM ANY AGGRESSIVE NECK MANIPULATION-- MASSAGE OR OTHERWISE.
Hell go to one of these Asian massage parlors and get a "happy ending". ;D
DOC
Lift, fuck, make money
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This is off topic: but, I'm always wondering as to why Dr Dena can get away with her kinky posing pics, selling used thongs, etc... wouldn't that violate the code of ethics? Serious question.
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CHIROS CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS.
I once had a 22 year old come through the ER following aggressive chiropractic manipulation of his neck. He was comatose and following his "visit" with the chiropractor had developed dissection of both vertebral arteries (which course through the bony structures of the cervical spine).
HE DIED.
I TEND TO SHY AWAY FROM ANY AGGRESSIVE NECK MANIPULATION-- MASSAGE OR OTHERWISE.
Hell go to one of these Asian massage parlors and get a "happy ending". ;D
DOC
Lift, fuck, make money
Yes, unfortunately that can happen. How many adjustments per year with how many cases like this? Please provide me with those statistics. Now, because of that case you wont go to chiro....after reading the following...are you going to ever go under anesthesia?
In a recent article published in the Deutsches Ärzteblatt, the German Medical Association’s official international science journal, shows that after decades of decline, the worldwide death rate during full anesthesia is back on the rise, to about seven patients in every million. And the number of deaths within a year after a general anesthesia is frighteningly high: one in 20. In the over-65 age group, it’s one in 10.
Of the 2,211 recorded anesthesia-related deaths in the United States during 1999–2005, 46.6% were attributable to overdose of anesthetics, 42.5% to adverse effects of anesthetics in therapeutic use, 3.6% to complications of anesthesia during pregnancy, labor, and puerperium, and 7.3% to other complications of anesthesia. The estimated rates from anesthesia-related deaths were 1.1 per million population per year (1.45 for males and 0.77 for females) and 8.2 per million hospital surgical discharges (11.7 for men and 6.5 for women).
So, Over 2200 deaths from anesthesia and how many chiro related deaths? Hmmm.
Now, am I saying surgery is not warranted or we shouldn't do it....or anesthesia is evil? Nope. All I am saying is that its a risky thing. as risky as getting adjusted? Nope. But, because my profession is so vilified...one death in a year puts us right up there as genocidal maniacs.
Devildoc....one thing that would be interesting to see would be if the doc who did that to the kid took the necessary precautions before cervical adjusting. If not, he is an idiot.
Re: Dr Dena...UGH....I think thats complete bullshit...but if her state does not have an ethics clause in their bylaws...she can shove a rat up her ass and still go and practice the next day.
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HAHAHAHA. This thread is so funny. I am lit laffing my head off. I guess i wouldn't think it was funny if I had the slightest doubt about what I do. All I can say is that the MDs here either live under a fucking rock, are totally misinformed or way behind the times. Tons of your brethren r continually referring to me and thousands of other chiros across this country on a daily basis and we with them. I don't think i really cut down on medicine in this thread, maybe I used deaths etc in a response to someone but as I said medicine and surgery is often needed and for the most part are noble professions. I don't need to try to bolster my profession by putting another one down.
Getbiggers, the MDs cutting down on chiro on this board r thankfully these days in the minority. Again, u can cite "well I saw a guy who was brought in for a stroke after a chiropractic adjustment etc..." Maybe it happened that way. Maybe it didn't.
The odds of u being hurt seriously by a chiropractor are as I said before infinitesimal.
Read again. Why do u think our malpractice insurance is around 1,200 dollars a year. The MDs here can spin all they want and make us sound like we are hurting so many people. All prejudicial lies or perhaps just misinformation or a judgment call based upon something they were told by a professor in medical school or who knows why they are saying that we don't know what we are doing or that we are hurting so many people but these things are simply not true.
Can you please provide actual stats of all of these people we are harming. You won't be able to.
Here's the funny thing. You'd think that after all this time we wouldn't be playing this dumb game since its already been played out in the court of public opinion. Wake up. Its not 1950 anymore.
People want chiropractic. If done correctly, it works very well.
The scare tactics have been tried before by the AMA and they failed. You are fighting an old worn out battle. Patients, consumers etc r much smarter these days. They will decide and have ultimately decided whether chiropractic is a viable health profession.
if u see my earlier posts I am not angry in the slightest with this thread. Its fn hilarious. I am not trying to convince anyone to change their minds. I just didn't want to sit idly by as my profession is attacked.
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This is off topic: but, I'm always wondering as to why Dr Dena can get away with her kinky posing pics, selling used thongs, etc... wouldn't that violate the code of ethics? Serious question.
Yeah I don't know enuff about that aspect of it. Its a fine line maybe. I think in a case like that with a grey area meaning she's not causing harm to anyone or doing anything illegal it comes down to a moral issue and those are hard to define. I think it would be an issue if people or patients complained to her state board that she was doing risque things but I think the boards hands would be tied and open themselves to lawsuit if they took action against her without having clear cut guidelines like "and if u r caught selling soiled panties to schomes etc...."
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how did humans manage to survive for so long without "chiropractors" ? ::) Probably because they didnt need them. Scam artists, all of them. Why isnt massage considered a medicine too then?
Valid question but retarded argument. Almost no one needs chiropractic to survive. At least not in the crisis sense. But if all u want to do is survive then u will can also take below the required amount of vitamin D or stay out of the sun enough to get rickets, U will take in below the required amount of vitamin C and get scurvy, u can ingest just enough food so u do not die of starvation, u can drink just enough water so u do not die of dehydration. What is your definition of survive? I take it you mean that since the human race began up until around 100 years ago when chiropractic was discovered (although the practice of spinal adjusting has been practiced for thousands of years as seen in (srs) Egyptian hieroglyphics in which an ancient Cairo-Practor is seen seen curing cancer and bilking Queen Nephriti's woker's comp fund) that we had not gone extinct without chiropractic before that time.
Stupid argument. We prolly wouldn't go extinct without cars, nice homes, PCs, exercise, lifting weights, god I could list a million things that we now use that we didn't even have just fifty years ago that we use freely now that have had a positive impact on our qualities of life. See how dumb your argument is? Regularly I wouldn't insult anyone by saying that their argument is dumb but u insult me in your next sentence saying that we are all scam artists. but to each his own. It doesn't bother me that u feel that way. ok w me.
Yup, I believe that humans could survive without chiropractic. But with chiropractic they millions of patients have eased painful daily suffering and improved the quality of their lives.
You want to know the really thing about chiro? MDs like the ones cutting us down try to belittle what we do. Like its such a small thing. Because we aren't curing cancer (which by the way no MD has ever cured cancer. The cancer cases that have been successfully treated by MDs have removed or suppressed cancer cells to the point where the body can take over and heal itself) they joke about us being reduced to some kind of foot massage doctor. What docs like that do not understand is that to a patient, what we do is a very big thing. For a patient that has been suffering with horrible sciatic pain daily for years and no relief with traditional medicine to be suddenly pain free after chiro adjustments....yeah...it ain't curing cancer...but to that pt it may as well be. To the woman with constant migraines that trditional medicine failed to relieve and to be suddenly headache free after that patient forgot what it was to even be headache free...nope...not curing cancer again...but to that patient...may as well be.
See doc when u belittle us u don't realize that you really belittle yourself. Who do u think u r convincing when u tell a patient, that has had wonderful results with chiro, when u tell them that we are quacks? Prolly the majority of the time u don't realize that the patient goes right back to their chiro and tells them u ar a fucking asshole.
Anyway, just so u know I'll say it again. The last thing I'm trying to do is convince uberman or the MDs here bashing us to change their views.
Just want to present a better side to the story.
And I'm not even offended the Docs on here that comment harshly about chiro uberman or anyone else that bashes it. Hell I'll prolly be bashing someone else in another thread n laffing right along side u guys.
To each his own. Its not like I'm gonna try to convince a Pepsi lover that Coke is better. If u r that set against chiro n think we r all scammers then fine. That's how u feel.
oh yeah. forgot your other question. Massage is not considered medicine because its not medicine. They are not doctors. We are. Look at our training. I personally hate the term chiropractic medicine. I think its dumb and misleading and completely unnecessary but if u look at the def of medicine I can see why it was adopted not long ago. I still don't like it though
med·i·cine
/ˈmedisən/
Noun
1The science or practice of the diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease (in technical use often taken to exclude surgery).
2. A drug or other preparation used for the treatment or prevention of disease.
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My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it.... some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc injured area.......
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
What do you think ?
WoooSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH
This is hilarious. How did OPs original question about a shoulder condition spawn all of this? Funny. Can someone take a sceen shot of that then stick T Bomz is where the lady is? This thread needs lightened up!
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Slik: I've had a lot of good friendly discussions with some GPs on here who think highly of our profession. There's only been like 2 guys on here who have fallen into the AMA brainwashing and have that alarmist, paranoid attitude about us.
Just as the classic GetBig rule goes, "the guys with the best physiques on here are usually the nicest, coolest posters",...the same principle applies here in regards to the feedback I've gotten from Getbiggers who work in health care. There's much to be said for being confident in who you are, and what you do, and not having to take cheap and insulting digs at others. Ive stated numerous times, I will NOT bash allopathic practitioners. In fact I'm quick to confront one of our colleagues if I hear that sort of childish, immature attitude.
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Slik: I've had a lot of good friendly discussions with some GPs on here who think highly of our profession. There's only been like 2 guys on here who have fallen into the AMA brainwashing and have that alarmist, paranoid attitude about us.
Just as the classic GetBig rule goes, "the guys with the best physiques on here are usually the nicest, coolest posters",...the same principle applies here in regards to the feedback I've gotten from Getbiggers who work in health care. There's much to be said for being confident in who you are, and what you do, and not having to take cheap and insulting digs at others. Ive stated numerous times, I will NOT bash allopathic practitioners. In fact I'm quick to confront one of our colleagues if I hear that sort of childish, immature attitude.
Are happy endings covered by insurance?
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Are happy endings covered by insurance?
Your mothers face has been covered by happy endings. :-*
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Your mothers face has been covered by happy endings. :-*
That is why I don't have more siblings :P
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That is why I don't have more siblings :P
:D
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For not having the slightest doubt about what he does, slik sure writes alot.
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For not having the slightest doubt about what he does, slik sure writes alot.
I just found our who Slik is in real life. He is a wealthy man with a thriving practice and he improves people's lives on a daily basis. You'd be lucky to work in his garden El Cankleito. ;)
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I just found our who Slik is in real life. He is a wealthy man with a thriving practice and he improves people's lives on a daily basis. You'd be lucky to work in his garden El Cankleito. ;)
Calf/ankle ;D
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I just found our who Slik is in real life. He is a wealthy man with a thriving practice and he improves people's lives on a daily basis. You'd be lucky to work in his garden El Cankleito. ;)
Great, another multibillionaire posting on getbig, awesome.
*yawn* ::)
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Great, another multibillionaire posting on getbig, awesome.
*yawn* ::)
El Cankleito was crossing the line huh? I didn't mean it bro.
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Great, another multibillionaire millionaire posting on getbig, awesome.
*yawn* Yeehah! :D
Fixed. Reason I wrote so much is I've just been screwing around for the last two weeks in my custom beach home (one of four homes across the country) in SoCal lifting at Venice Golds everyday. Love Getbig cuz it keeps it real. I cant stand the other BB sites that r so censored n gay. Mirin bro?
I dug myself up from meager beginnings. So i have that getbigger attitude. My dad was first gen here n escaped a communist country. The old story of coming here w 20 dollars in his pocket. Raised a family on a shoestring budget n hoped for a better life for his kids. I'm a self made man who now owns five business that believe me, r far from failing.
Wut this has to do w OPs shoulder is beyond me tho haha
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Fixed. Reason I wrote so much is I've just been screwing around for the last two weeks in my custom beach home (one of four homes across the country) in SoCal lifting at Venice Golds everyday. Love Getbig cuz it keeps it real. I cant stand the other BB sites that r so censored n gay. Mirin bro?
I dug myself up from meager beginnings. So i have that getbigger attitude. My dad was first gen here n escaped a communist country. The old story of coming here w 20 dollars in his pocket. Raised a family on a shoestring budget n hoped for a better life for his kids. I'm a self made man who now owns five business that believe me, r far from failing.
Wut this has to do w OPs shoulder is beyond me tho haha
Meltdown.
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Meltdown.
haha. Yeah you're right. Thot twice about posting that. But it think technically a melt down would involve me being pissed or outraged or sump. I think this whole thread is funny. Prolly a bad move tho cuz I know what its like to be broke and I don't like it when people flaunt there stuff. I guess one part of it was showing that not all chiros r supposed unsuccessful quacks. I have nothing to gain from posting it and will surely incur the wrath of get biggers now. I have found something odd in life tho. If u win millions in the lottery everyone is happy for u and congratulatory. If u work hard everyday of ur life toward ur goals and make it in this world then people hate on u. Funny how that works.
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haha. Yeah you're right. Thot twice about posting that. But it think technically a melt down would involve me being pissed or outraged or sump. I think this whole thread is funny. Prolly a bad move tho cuz I know what its like to be broke and I don't like it when people flaunt there stuff. I guess one part of it was showing that not all chiros r supposed unsuccessful quacks. I have nothing to gain from posting it and will surely incur the wrath of get biggers now. I have found something odd in life tho. If u win millions in the lottery everyone is happy for u and congratulatory. If u work hard everyday of ur life toward ur goals and make it in this world then people hate on u. Funny how that works.
Outed.
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Fixed. Reason I wrote so much is I've just been screwing around for the last two weeks in my custom beach home (one of four homes across the country) in SoCal lifting at Venice Golds everyday. Love Getbig cuz it keeps it real. I cant stand the other BB sites that r so censored n gay. Mirin bro?
I dug myself up from meager beginnings. So i have that getbigger attitude. My dad was first gen here n escaped a communist country. The old story of coming here w 20 dollars in his pocket. Raised a family on a shoestring budget n hoped for a better life for his kids. I'm a self made man who now owns five business that believe me, r far from failing.
Wut this has to do w OPs shoulder is beyond me tho haha
Yes, Donald Trump, Bill Gates and Oprah all write like this.
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Damn it if have never road a motorcycle no use to live anyway.
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Come get me get biggers. I stand behind every thing I wrote about Chiro but I feel really bad that in defending my personal self that i was a broke phoney I talked about possessions. I shouldn't have. I deserve your wrath. I remember my mom n dad trying to scrape money together and my mom always doing without just to feed us kids. I know what the pain of being broke feels like. But money is a touchy subject and I should have known better.
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Come get me get biggers. I stand behind every thing I wrote about Chiro but I feel really bad that in defending my personal self that i was a broke phoney I talked about possessions. I shouldn't have. I deserve your wrath. I remember my mom n dad trying to scrape money together and my mom always doing without just to feed us kids. I know what the pain of being broke feels like. But money is a touchy subject and I should have known better.
Pics of yourself naked in a bathtub covered in 100's or I call bullshit.
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Slik: I've had a lot of good friendly discussions with some GPs on here who think highly of our profession. There's only been like 2 guys on here who have fallen into the AMA brainwashing and have that alarmist, paranoid attitude about us.
Some of us simply expect a supposedly genuine type of treatment to have at least a single study demonstrating its effectiveness above and beyond the placebo effect -- something I still haven't seen for, e.g., spinal adjustment. Please, if any such studies exist, don't hesitate to link to them.
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Some of us simply expect a supposedly genuine type of treatment to have at least a single study demonstrating its effectiveness above and beyond the placebo effect -- something I still haven't seen for, e.g., spinal adjustment. Please, if any such studies exist, don't hesitate to link to them.
jeez. There r tons of them. In fact many of the studies funded originally by the medical community intended to discredit Chiro backfired and proved how well it really works. Maybe Chiro flex or krankenstein can link them. If not ill link to tons of them wen I get back from camping out in my backyard in the pup tent.
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One thing chiropractors and their very active lobbying arm have done is convince most of the general public that they are essentially medical doctors who simply practice the specialty of "chiropractic" and are no different than doctors who specialize in neurology, orthopedics, radiology, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. Chiropractors do not attend medical school, which, unlike most law schools for example, is still relatively difficult to get into and requires some modicum of intelligence. Trust me, there's no chiropractic specialty at any legitmate school of medicine. In fact, most, if not all, chiropractic schools do not even require a college degree for entrance and most states will allow you to be licensed as a Doctor of Chiropractic without a college degree. I'm not saying that a college degree is the be all and end all but how many members of the general public know that their local chiropractor, who goes around calling himself "Doctor," throwing around fancy medical terms, and wearing a stethoscope or other accoutrements of the medical profession, may not have even graduated from college with a liberal arts degree in basket weaving?
If you suddenly find yourself getting ill and someone asks "Is there a doctor in the house?" a chiropractor will do you as much good as an accountant or janitor despite the chiropractors carefully cultivated image of being a "medical professional."
Chiropractic is quackery plain and simple (Google its origins if you don't belive me), that has been given some level of credibility by politicians eager to take chiropractors hefty campaign donations.
Like with everything else, follow the money.
you have no idea what u r talking about. Hefty political campaign donations. Name just one my friend. Who the heck is trying to convince anyone that a chiropractor is a medical doctor? I have not seen it. Maybe its true. Link or tell me an example. I don't wear a stethoscope. Do I have one in the office. Yes. We r trained to listen to lungs and heart sounds. Am I a cardio pulmonary specialist? No. I listen for gross or on obvious abnormalities when examine a pt n refer out if I hear any. Cool story. Young kid came in years ago. He never felt good his entire life. Thing was and I don't know how, he had a heart murmur which was never detected. I heard it. I referred him out. Apparently he upon examination his condition was so severe he required almost immediate surgery. He's like thirty now and still sees me and to this day he always says I'm the guy who saved his life. Have tons of stories like that where I've found Ab aneurysms on xray, cancers. I could give hundreds of examples. I'm a I medical doc? Heck no. Never said I was n don't want to be. If a Chiro is claiming to be one which I don't know why they would the I would understand why mds wouldn't like us.
By the way, if u r implying that having a stethoscope means we r claiming to be mds, a vet carries a stethoscope, a nurse carries one. I have an old friend who is a retired ford mechanic that used to use one listening to car engines. Just using or possessing a stethescope doesn't mean we r implying we r mds.
Funny thing about the Internet. If u have a pleasant experience with something odds r usually not write about it. But if u have a negative experience u will write and write and write. That's why most of the Internet is so negative. For every negative comment about Chiro on the net there a thousands if not millions of glowing silent experiences.
Check it out. In this day and age the argument about wether Chiro works or not is so over. Usually the people cutting down on it have an ad to grind or have an ulterior motive or r just ignorant.
Maybe a person truly did have a bad personal experience w a Chiro. If so go to another Chiro or ask around till u find a good one. I always tell patients, if a person has a bad experience with a medical doc they immediately find another dr. But if a person has a bad experience with a Chiro they say Chiropractic sux.
Anyway, there r now team chiros for nearly every branch of sports. Nba, nfl, NHL etc. it works people.
Oh yeah. Don't believe this guy about lobbyists n big donations. Truth is the chiropractic associations survive on a shoes string. The associations that represent us and for love em, r broke in comparison to the real lobbyists in the health care arena. The only reason that we ever get any foothold such as insurance equality etc is be aside the public demands it.
Thinks about it. Who would find chiropractic? We don't use much. An xray machine, some tables. But we mainly use our hands n they don't cost anything.
The real money is in high tech surgical equipment, building big hospitals, the multi billion dollar drug industry.
The Chiro assoc are unfortunately like David was to Goliath when it comes to that.
Okay, I gotta go use the outhouse and throw another log on the fire.
(GDAM iPhone. I'm not going back n fixing all that fn autocorrect bulshit.)
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They knit sweaters as well and sell them.
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I'm on chiclet duty next weekend.
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I actually do know what I'm talking about. Your post refutes nothing that I said. A couple of ancedotal stories about you purportedly finding something in an x-ray is pretty meaningless when one looks at the chiropractic MLM business as a whole.
Back in the day, when I worked in the state legislature the chiropractors had at least a 1/2 dozen pieces of legislation every session that they were always pushing to expand the scope of their practice. Whether it was being allowed to prescribe medication, read MRIs, being allowed to refer to themselves as "Doctor," etc., there was always something they were lobbying for. And they were usually supported by the plaintiff's personal injury bar, which refers most of its fradulent accident cases to chiropractors to give the cases some element of legitimacy in the eyes of the gullible public. Fortunately, most courts severly limit what a chiropractor can testify to given the acknowledged lack of real medical education or training.
Admittedly, chiropractors don't have the lobby that the real health care industry has, but who does. Health care is big business and big business runs the world.
And please, don't compare chiropractic to veterinary medicine. Veterinarians are legitimate health care professionals with real medical training. The entry standards to get into veterinary school and the accrediting procedures for getting into the profession are comparable to human medicine. If I passed out at the gym due to AAS-induced high blood pressure I'd much rather have a veterinarian have a look at me than "Dr. Chiro."
Ether showing up with his gimmick account ::)
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I actually do know what I'm talking about. Your post refutes nothing that I said. A couple of ancedotal stories about you purportedly finding something in an x-ray is pretty meaningless when one looks at the chiropractic MLM business as a whole.
Back in the day, when I worked in the state legislature the chiropractors had at least a 1/2 dozen pieces of legislation every session that they were always pushing to expand the scope of their practice. Whether it was being allowed to prescribe medication, read MRIs, being allowed to refer to themselves as "Doctor," etc., there was always something they were lobbying for. And they were usually supported by the plaintiff's personal injury bar, which refers most of its fradulent accident cases to chiropractors to give the cases some element of legitimacy in the eyes of the gullible public. Fortunately, most courts severly limit what a chiropractor can testify to given the acknowledged lack of real medical education or training.
Admittedly, chiropractors don't have the lobby that the real health care industry has, but who does. Health care is big business and big business runs the world.
And please, don't compare chiropractic to veterinary medicine. Veterinarians are legitimate health care professionals with real medical training. The entry standards to get into veterinary school and the accrediting procedures for getting into the profession are comparable to human medicine. If I passed out at the gym due to AAS-induced high blood pressure I'd much rather have a veterinarian have a look at me than "Dr. Chiro."
why can I not use an anecdotal story relating to me making a point when ur argument is full of anecdotal stories?
I whole heartedly agree with u and I am begginig to understand where ur anger is coming from be because it sounds like u n I actually r on the same side and if u read my posts is what I said about about pissng other professions off and steeping on toes. I take back what I said about not hearing about chiros pretending to be mds. Not that the group that was pushing to be able to prescribe certain classes of meds were claiming to be mds but there once again was a recent push for chiros to be able to prescribe certain classes of drugs.
I don't agree with it. Its dumb. If chiros would stick to what we are suppose to be doing chiros would be so busy in their practices they would t have time to worry about all the other bullshit theu supposedly should be doing.
As for the example of of somene passing out at the gym I won't note u w more anecdotal stories, yes ive been involved in thise situations too, but will say that chiros r trained in basic emergency procedures. Again I said basic, but u do understand that when u generalize as in I'd much rather have a vet than a Chiro if I passd out. That's fine. But it also again depends upon that vet or that chiro and wut their personal experiences r etc.
Etc. I may be remembering wrong cuz I didn't reread ur post but u seem to have a chip on ur shoulders about chiros being doctors. We r doctors. We r not medical doctors.
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(http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p569/Vincebertolini/chiro.png)
LOL This is a very misleading post and was obviously meant to infer that chiropractors accrue more science-based knowledge..Completely Disagree... As for the SCOPE of how Anatomy is taught for Medicine...Medical school -> Objectives are based on clinical and pathological reference...where there is also MORE volume w/ less time ....You are also not including CLINICAL hrs AND LABS Try 4 hour Anatomy Labs directly before 5 hour classes on same day! and The preparation for the Steps 1,2 , and 3 Board exams--> Which showcases that u didn't just memorize course load like a robot but have to prove you can apply it w/ clinical relevance. I have 4 licensed chiropractors as current colleagues/students now in medicine and ALL agree that the material is not even comparable .. where they even complained of not having much of an advantage when taking our anatomy course...which was a wake-up call MONSTER
Further, I will say that the practice of a chiropractor is still very respectable within its limited scope and has its place. Just needed to clarify how NUMBERS can be very misleading....
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LOL This is a very misleading post and was obviously meant to infer that chiropractors accrue more science-based knowledge..Completely Disagree... As for the SCOPE of how Anatomy is taught for Medicine...Medical school -> Objectives are based on clinical and pathological reference...where there is also MORE volume w/ less time ....You are also not including CLINICAL hrs AND LABS Try 4 hour Anatomy Labs directly before 5 hour classes on same day! and The preparation for the Steps 1,2 , and 3 Board exams--> Which showcases that u didn't just memorize course load like a robot but have to prove you can apply it w/ clinical relevance. I have 4 licensed chiropractors as current colleagues/students now in medicine and ALL agree that the material is not even comparable .. where they even complained of not having much of an advantage when taking our anatomy course...which was a wake-up call MONSTER
Further, I will say that the practice of a chiropractor is still very respectable within its limited scope and has its place. Just needed to clarify how NUMBERS can be very misleading....
Thanks for clarifying. I was worried after seeing that chart. As you say, chiropractors are an important part of the medical field. I just think that they are obviously lower on the list.
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LOL This is a very misleading post and was obviously meant to infer that chiropractors accrue more science-based knowledge..Completely Disagree... As for the SCOPE of how Anatomy is taught for Medicine...Medical school -> Objectives are based on clinical and pathological reference...where there is also MORE volume w/ less time ....You are also not including CLINICAL hrs AND LABS Try 4 hour Anatomy Labs directly before 5 hour classes on same day! and The preparation for the Steps 1,2 , and 3 Board exams--> Which showcases that u didn't just memorize course load like a robot but have to prove you can apply it w/ clinical relevance. I have 4 licensed chiropractors as current colleagues/students now in medicine and ALL agree that the material is not even comparable .. where they even complained of not having much of an advantage when taking our anatomy course...which was a wake-up call MONSTER
Further, I will say that the practice of a chiropractor is still very respectable within its limited scope and has its place. Just needed to clarify how NUMBERS can be very misleading....
1- we also have anatomy and chem labs not included on the hours,
2- every state except Illinois requires parts 1-4 National Board Exams. We still have to take those as well.
3- I posted this to show that we didn't just take a weekend course to become a chiropractor. We bust our ass for 8 years to earn the title. It was NOT a dig at MD's.
4-I Appreciate your comment at the end bro. This is the type of attitude almost every physician I've encountered has had.
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Thanks for clarifying. I was worried after seeing that chart. As you say, chiropractors are an important part of the medical field. I just think that they are obviously lower on the list.
I am not even mentioning the requirement of getting into Medical school.. AND the type of grades we have to attain and retain... you can just barely pass our Board exam... but this will pretty much lock you out from receiving ANY residency... I didn't want to downgrade the chiropractor's profession...but to compare level and intricacy of scientific knowledge and to further degrade medicine's scope... That's going too far LOL I just showed that post to my med classmate who's also a former practicing chiropractor and he cannot stop laughing
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LOL This is a very misleading post and was obviously meant to infer that chiropractors accrue more science-based knowledge..Completely Disagree... As for the SCOPE of how Anatomy is taught for Medicine...Medical school -> Objectives are based on clinical and pathological reference...where there is also MORE volume w/ less time ....You are also not including CLINICAL hrs AND LABS Try 4 hour Anatomy Labs directly before 5 hour classes on same day! and The preparation for the Steps 1,2 , and 3 Board exams--> Which showcases that u didn't just memorize course load like a robot but have to prove you can apply it w/ clinical relevance. I have 4 licensed chiropractors as current colleagues/students now in medicine and ALL agree that the material is not even comparable .. where they even complained of not having much of an advantage when taking our anatomy course...which was a wake-up call MONSTER
Further, I will say that the practice of a chiropractor is still very respectable within its limited scope and has its place. Just needed to clarify how NUMBERS can be very misleading....
i don't know first hand exactly what u guys go thru. I am inclined to agree with u. Ur training should be more intense as u treat so much more than we do and for many other reasons. Can't agree more on sticking with our scope of practice.
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Thanks for clarifying. I was worried after seeing that chart. As you say, chiropractors are an important part of the medical field. I just think that they are obviously lower on the list.
We are not the same thing!!! Hence why we can't be "ranked" in an order of which health care professional is the best. We all have different functions and different scopes of practice. This is like saying "well I rate my GP over my dentist as the best doctor." MD's play a vital role an have my utmost respect. Even if I have issue with certain allopathic philosophies, it does not change my high opinion of their profession.
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i don't know first hand exactly what u guys go thru. I am inclined to agree with u. Ur training should be more intense as u treat so much more than we do and for many other reasons. Can't agree more on sticking with our scope of practice.
Exactly. DC's have our strengths in certain areas that are unarguably better than a GP. And vice versa. GP's have a much, much, broader scope of practice.
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We are not the same thing!!! Hence why we can't be "ranked" in an order of which health care professional is the best. We all have different functions and different scopes of practice. This is like saying "well I rate my GP over my dentist as the best doctor." MD's play a vital role an have my utmost respect. Even if I have issue with certain allopathic philosophies, it does not change my high opinion of their profession.
100% agreed ... who cares about ranking.. it's all about practicing what you are interested in practicing... I honestly do not care about comparing what profession is more difficult or what is more superior.. I cannot stand those type of physicians.... The comparison table w/ hrs accrued just caught my eye and had to to make a stand
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I have mds that see me. I have md friends. I have mds I refer to and them to me.
I've lived my life by two basic rules when dealing with people.
1. Does this guy seem cool? I mean does this person seem like someone I'd like to hang out with? Someone I can trust?
When u strip away someone's title....Chiro, md, auto mechanic, plumber, computer repair. If u r going to use them on a reg basis n have even a working relationship with them do they fit this criteria?
There r geniuses n cool people in all walks of life n all professions. Then there r the "others". And all professions r full of those others.
2. Basically my fav saying of all time
The winners in poker are all laughing and having a good time while the losers are screaming "shut up and deal!"
Me thinks the losers in their professions may possibly be the ones screaming so loudly in this thread.
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where is the research??//
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I have mds that see me. I have md friends. I have mds I refer to and them to me.
I've lived my life by two basic rules when dealing with people.
1. Does this guy seem cool? I mean does this person seem like someone I'd like to hang out with? Someone I can trust?
When u strip away someone's title....Chiro, md, auto mechanic, plumber, computer repair. If u r going to use them on a reg basis n have even a working relationship with them do they fit this criteria?
There r geniuses n cool people in all walks of life n all professions. Then there r the "others". And all professions r full of those others.
2. Basically my fav saying of all time
The winners in poker are all laughing and having a good time while the losers are screaming "shut up and deal!"
Me thinks the losers in their professions may possibly be the ones screaming so loudly in this thread.
This is the worst crock of shit I have read in Getbig in a long time. And that says something.
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This is the worst crock of shit I have read in Getbig in a long time. And that says something.
haha!
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where is the research??//
fair question. im on vaca. Linking to research takes more time than to just write responses off the top of my head. If no one else links to it I will when i get home.
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It takes a special kind of imbecile to write what you wrote. You sir, are that imbecile.
always served me well. Tell me what's dumb about it.
Ahh. I reread. Maybe by cool you think I mean cool like slang for "it" crowd. I mean cool like stable, secure as opposed to insecure, decisive, confident etc. I could go on but I'm an imbecile.
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One thing chiropractors and their very active lobbying arm have done is convince most of the general public that they are essentially medical doctors who simply practice the specialty of "chiropractic" and are no different than doctors who specialize in neurology, orthopedics, radiology, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You are right, nothing could be further from the truth. Show me one Chiro who has made that type insinuation that we are no different than medical doctors.
Chiropractors do not attend medical school, which, unlike most law schools for example, is still relatively difficult to get into and requires some modicum of intelligence.
Once again, you are right. We attend chiropractic schools, not medical schools.
Trust me, there's no chiropractic specialty at any legitmate school of medicine. In fact, most, if not all, chiropractic schools do not even require a college degree for entrance and most states will allow you to be licensed as a Doctor of Chiropractic without a college degree. I'm not saying that a college degree is the be all and end all but how many members of the general public know that their local chiropractor, who goes around calling himself "Doctor," throwing around fancy medical terms, and wearing a stethoscope or other accoutrements of the medical profession, may not have even graduated from college with a liberal arts degree in basket weaving?
I Neither wear a white coat, nor a stethoscope. Is that ok? Would a degree in basket weaving make us more legit in your eyes?
If you suddenly find yourself getting ill and someone asks "Is there a doctor in the house?" a chiropractor will do you as much good as an accountant or janitor despite the chiropractors carefully cultivated image of being a "medical professional."
When was the last time someone said "Is there a doctor in the house?" I had to perform CPR one time, but no one asked if I was a doctor. Hmm, pray tell where are you going that people say that?
Chiropractic is quackery plain and simple (Google its origins if you don't belive me), that has been given some level of credibility by politicians eager to take chiropractors hefty campaign donations.
Like with everything else, follow the money.
Shall we discuss the medical profession ENDORSING the smoking of cigarettes back in the 50's? Yep, gotta love the medical establishment there!
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I actually do know what I'm talking about. Your post refutes nothing that I said. A couple of ancedotal stories about you purportedly finding something in an x-ray is pretty meaningless when one looks at the chiropractic MLM business as a whole.
Back in the day, when I worked in the state legislature the chiropractors had at least a 1/2 dozen pieces of legislation every session that they were always pushing to expand the scope of their practice.
So you were a page that did 'favors'? Is it not the purpose of our legislature to do that? Perhaps you should have let them know that they weren't allowed to.
Whether it was being allowed to prescribe medication, read MRIs, being allowed to refer to themselves as "Doctor," etc.,
We being referred to as 'Doctor' is way before your time there son. Please don't think we actually believe you were around for that. Were you there for the lawsuit on the AMA as well?
there was always something they were lobbying for. And they were usually supported by the plaintiff's personal injury bar, which refers most of its fradulent accident cases to chiropractors to give the cases some element of legitimacy in the eyes of the gullible public. Fortunately, most courts severly limit what a chiropractor can testify to given the acknowledged lack of real medical education or training.
I certainly hope I wouldn't be called to the stand and testify about Col. Mustard in the Library with the candlestick
Admittedly, chiropractors don't have the lobby that the real health care industry has, but who does. Health care is big business and big business runs the world.
And please, don't compare chiropractic to veterinary medicine. Veterinarians are legitimate health care professionals with real medical training. The entry standards to get into veterinary school and the accrediting procedures for getting into the profession are comparable to human medicine. If I passed out at the gym due to AAS-induced high blood pressure I'd much rather have a veterinarian have a look at me than "Dr. Chiro."
Are you even slightly aware what the word "Doctor" means? Oh, and I sure hope that your dealer has a degree in biochem and a nice sterile lab for the UG shit you put in you. Have you asked for credentials? Malpractice insurance? Etc? If you passed out from HBP, I would hope that I can figure out how to call 911. I mean, I don't have a modicum of intelligence but I imagine I could ask someone for the phone number of 911 in order to dial it.
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The eloquence of the chiropractic-defenders is impressive. No doubt these rhetorical skills were learned at prestigious schools of higher education such as Life and Palmer University, or maybe the legendary Cleveland Chirporactic College, where they are undoubtedly doing peer-reviewed research establishing a link between vertebral subluxations and the cure for cancer (and every other malady known to man). A couple spinal manipulations (buy 10 and get one free if you sign up at the local mall on Saturday) and you'll be GTG.
this is why I love Getbig. This is quite funny n made me laugh ;D
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I don't even see how you can use a computer with the head so far up your arse.
siri. That's why so many typos due to echo in there
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The eloquence of the chiropractic-defenders is impressive. No doubt these rhetorical skills were learned at prestigious schools of higher education such as Life and Palmer University, or maybe the legendary Cleveland Chirporactic College, where they are undoubtedly doing peer-reviewed research establishing a link between vertebral subluxations and the cure for cancer (and every other malady known to man). A couple spinal manipulations (buy 10 and get one free if you sign up at the local mall on Saturday) and you'll be GTG.
No, they were taught here on GB. What is your original screen name on here by the way? Are you feverishly hitting the refresh button?
Oh and the buy 10 get one free thing, thats borderline fee splitting. Just thought you might want to know. If you have medicare, then by all means its a no-no. If you are planning on becoming a 'fee at time of service' patient, then I can have you sign a financial hardship form...provided you commit to 45,323 adjustments over the next year to ensure that your spine is aligned. One more thing about the mall...I see many eye doctors in a mall. Are they any less credible because they are in a mall?
I do have a study on the ability of a base posterior sacrum to improve the condition of having your head up your ass (to which you appear to suffer from). Please call my office and give my office manager your insurance information ASAP so we may begin to help you live a healthy lifestyle.
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Your comment regarding "eye doctors" at the mall explains a lot. In your mind, the high school drop outs working as opticians in the mall eye glass store are indeed "eye doctors," same as an opthamologist who went to Harvard Medical School. Right? From there, it's not much of a leap to equate what you apparently do to orthopedic or neurological medicine. Heck, why not oncology too.
And Medicare? Is that your angle? Hustling old people for unnesessary and unproven "treatment." If so, props to you if u can get away w/ it. Like the Don said, it doesn't make any difference to me what a man does for a living.
your debating skills are very poor at best. Your arguments are getting so abstract and u r extrapolating conclusions that are really stretching things. This latest post doesn't even deserve much more of a response than this.
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Your comment regarding "eye doctors" at the mall explains a lot. In your mind, the high school drop outs working as opticians in the mall eye glass store are indeed "eye doctors," same as an opthamologist who went to Harvard Medical School. Right? From there, it's not much of a leap to equate what you apparently do to orthopedic or neurological medicine. Heck, why not oncology too.
And Medicare? Is that your angle? Hustling old people for unnesessary and unproven "treatment." If so, props to you if u can get away w/ it. Like the Don said, it doesn't make any difference to me what a man does for a living.
You sure are worked up Senator 'Cholo'. When did I say an adjustment is equated to the study of cancer (onco = prefix for swelling/lump/tumor, ology = suffix for the study of)?
What angle with Medicare? Seeing that you do not understand the stringent guidelines of Medicare, I guess the joke was lost on you. Explain how I 'hustle' someone with Medicare please.
By the way, it sure does seem to make a difference what do in light of your posts. Bet it makes you feel very good to post from a second handle. What life do you live that you had to create a special handle just to post in this thread.
XO sweetie
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Very nice. All the quacks and snake oil salesmen are ganging up on me.
Anyway, I've go to go soon. I think my mom's almost done with dinner upstairs.
Words of a desperate man losing a battle here. Please, don't leave.
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Very nice. All the quacks and snake oil salesmen are ganging up on me.
Anyway, I've go to go soon. I think my mom's almost done with dinner upstairs.
xo xo sweetie
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I'll just pull uo the first 5 results that pubmed shows. I'm perplexed at why people claim there's no evidence for what we do. ??? ??? ???
I could spend all day posting pubmed links! I was at a seminar last month where all we did, for 8 hours, was go over the latest peer reviewed articles from the last year supporting our profession. It was a long, drawn out day. There's so much info out there.
Here goes...
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J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2013 May 22. pii: S0161-4754(13)00057-2. doi: 10.1016/j.jmpt.2013.04.005. [Epub ahead of print]
Symptomatic Magnetic Resonance Imaging-Confirmed Lumbar Disk Herniation Patients: A Comparative Effectiveness Prospective Observational Study of 2 Age- and Sex-Matched Cohorts Treated With Either High-Velocity, Low-Amplitude Spinal Manipulative Therapy or Imaging-Guided Lumbar Nerve Root Injections.
Peterson CK, Leemann S, Lechmann M, Pfirrmann CW, Hodler J, Humphreys BK.
Source
Professor, Departments of Chiropractic and Radiology, Orthopaedic University Hospital Balgrist, Zürich, Switzerland. Electronic address: cynthia.peterson@balgrist.ch.
Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
The purpose of this study was to compare self-reported pain and "improvement" of patients with symptomatic, magnetic resonance imaging-confirmed, lumbar disk herniations treated with either high-velocity, low-amplitude spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) or nerve root injections (NRI).
METHODS:
This prospective cohort comparative effectiveness study included 102 age- and sex-matched patients treated with either NRI or SMT. Numerical rating scale (NRS) pain data were collected before treatment. One month after treatment, current NRS pain levels and overall improvement assessed using the Patient Global Impression of Change scale were recorded. The proportion of patients, "improved" or "worse," was calculated for each treatment. Comparison of pretreatment and 1-month NRS scores used the paired t test. Numerical rating scale and NRS change scores for the 2 groups were compared using the unpaired t test. The groups were also compared for "improvement" using the χ2 test. Odds ratios with 95% confidence intervals were calculated. Average direct procedure costs for each treatment were calculated.
RESULTS:
No significant differences for self-reported pain or improvement were found between the 2 groups. "Improvement" was reported in 76.5% of SMT patients and in 62.7% of the NRI group. Both groups reported significantly reduced NRS scores at 1 month (P = .0001). Average cost for treatment with SMT was Swiss Francs 533.77 (US $558.75) and Swiss Francs 697 (US $729.61) for NRI.
CONCLUSIONS:
Most SMT and NRI patients with radicular low back pain and magnetic resonance imaging-confirmed disk herniation matching symptomatic presentation reported significant and clinically relevant reduction in self-reported pain level and increased global perception of improvement. There were no significant differences in outcomes between NRI and SMT. When considering direct procedure costs, the average cost of SMT was slightly less expensive.
Copyright © 2013 National University of Health Sciences. Published by Mosby, Inc. All rights reserved.
PMID: 23706678 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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Magnetic Resonance Imaging Zygapophyseal Joint Space Changes (Gapping) in Low Back Pain Patients Following Spinal Manipulation and Side-Posture Positioning: A Randomized Controlled Mechanisms Trial With Blinding.
Cramer GD, Cambron J, Cantu JA, Dexheimer JM, Pocius JD, Gregerson D, Fergus M, McKinnis R, Grieve TJ.
Source
Professor and Dean of Research, Department of Research, National University of Health Sciences, Lombard, IL. Electronic address: gcramer@nuhs.edu.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The purpose of this study was to quantify lumbar zygapophyseal (Z) joint space separation (gapping) in low back pain (LBP) subjects after spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) or side-posture positioning (SPP).
METHODS:
This was a controlled mechanisms trial with randomization and blinding. Acute LBP subjects (N = 112; four n = 28 magnetic resonance imaging [MRI] protocol groups) had 2 MRI appointments (initial enrollment and after 2 weeks of chiropractic treatment, receiving 2 MRI scans of the L4/L5 and L5/S1 Z joints at each MRI appointment. After the first MRI scan of each appointment, subjects were randomized (initial enrollment appointment) or assigned (after 2 weeks of chiropractic treatment appointment) into SPP (nonmanipulation), SMT (manipulation), or control MRI protocol groups. After SPP or SMT, a second MRI was taken. The central anterior-posterior joint space was measured. Difference between most painful side anterior-posterior measurements taken postintervention and preintervention was the Z joint "gapping difference." Gapping differences were compared (analysis of variance) among protocol groups. Secondary measures of pain (visual analog scale, verbal numeric pain rating scale) and function (Bournemouth questionnaire) were assessed.
RESULTS:
Gapping differences were significant at the first (adjusted, P = .009; SPP, 0.66 ± 0.48 mm; SMT, 0.23 ± 0.86; control, 0.18 ± 0.71) and second (adjusted, P = .0005; SPP, 0.65 ± 0.92 mm; SMT, 0.89 ± 0.71; control, 0.35 ± 0.32) MRI appointments. Verbal numeric pain rating scale differences were significant at first MRI appointment (P = .04) with SMT showing the greatest improvement. Visual analog scale and Bournemouth questionnaire improved after 2 weeks of care in all groups (both P < .0001).
CONCLUSIONS:
Side-posture positioning showed greatest gapping at baseline. After 2 weeks, SMT resulted in greatest gapping. Side-posture positioning appeared to have additive therapeutic benefit to SMT.
Copyright © 2013 National University of Health Sciences. Published by Mosby, Inc. All rights reserved.
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No one is saying that u can't get symptom alleviation from chiropractic. But u can also get improvement from the local masseuse as well and she's not claiming to be some type of medical professional. And BTW, most, if not all, US courts of law deem chiropractors unqualified to testify as to the interpretation of MRI films.
Oh I'm sorry, I thought you said we were worthless and contributed nothing to health care?
Don't worry, I have more...
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No one is saying that u can't get symptom alleviation from chiropractic. But u can also get improvement from the local masseuse as well and she's not claiming to be some type of medical professional. And BTW, most, if not all, US courts of law deem chiropractors unqualified to testify as to the interpretation of MRI films.
ur dinner's gettin cold son
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How about one from a real medical school not "National University of Health Sciences," which sounds impressive but is just some chiropractic mill admitting anyone who applies and can somehow figure out how to borrow the money to pay the tuition.
LOL. I've spoken with many MD's. Our peer reviewed research is legitimate. You are just scared to ever admit being wrong.
I'm sure you're familiar with the Clear Institute? Some of the most exciting stuff is coming out of there. They're making massive strides in spinal correction. The degree that they are improving hyper kyphosis is astounding, and quantifiable. Now, tell me how that translates to this?
FROM: J Am Geriatr Soc 2004 (Oct); 52 (10): 1662—1667
Kado DM, Huang MH, Karlamangla AS, Barrett-Connor E, Greendale GA
Division of Geriatrics, Department of Medicine, David Geffen School of Medicine at University of California, Los Angeles, California 90095, USA. dkado@mednet.ucla.edu
OBJECTIVES: To determine the association between hyperkyphotic posture and rate of mortality and cause-specific mortality in older persons.
DESIGN: Prospective cohort study.
SETTING: Rancho Bernardo, California.
PARTICIPANTS: Subjects were 1,353 participants from the Rancho Bernardo Study who had measurements of kyphotic posture made at an osteoporosis visit between 1988 and 1991.
MEASURES: Kyphotic posture was measured as the number of 1.7-cm blocks that needed to be placed under the participant's head to achieve a neutral head position when lying supine on a radiology table. Demographic and clinical characteristics and health behaviors were assessed at a clinic visit using standard questionnaires. Participants were followed for an average of 4.2 years, with mortality and cause of death confirmed using review of death certificates.
RESULTS: Hyperkyphotic posture, defined as requiring one or more blocks under the occiput to achieve a neutral head position while lying supine, was more common in men than women (44% in men, 22% of women, P<.0001). In age- and sex-adjusted analyses, persons with hyperkyphotic posture had a 1.44 greater rate of mortality (95% confidence interval (CI)=1.12-1.86, P=.005). In multiply adjusted models, the increased rate of death associated with hyperkyphotic posture remained significant (relative hazard=1.40, 95% CI=1.08-1.81, P=.012). In cause-specific mortality analyses, hyperkyphotic posture was specifically associated with an increased rate of death due to atherosclerosis.
CONCLUSION: Older men and women with hyperkyphotic posture have higher mortality rates.
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This is great! Thanks for the warm welcome to GB.
I'll see u guys on other threads.
Chiropractic is the best!!!
gimmck. Comes to Getbig expecting a warm welcome. Now that's some funny shit right there. N make sure to eat all ur peas.
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FROM: J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2012 (Sep); 35 (7): 525-533
Cynthia K. Peterson, DC, MMedEd, Jennifer Bolton, PhD, MAEd, B. Kim Humphreys, DC, PhD
Chiropractic Department, Faculty of Medicine, University of Zürich, Zürich, Switzerland. Cynthia.peterson@balgrist.ch
OBJECTIVES: The purpose of this study was to investigate outcomes and prognostic factors in patients with acute or chronic low back pain (LBP) undergoing chiropractic treatment.
METHODS: This was a prognostic cohort study with medium-term outcomes. Adult patients with LBP of any duration who had not received chiropractic or manual therapy in the prior 3 months were recruited from multiple chiropractic practices in Switzerland. Participating doctors of chiropractic were allowed to use their typical treatment methods (such as chiropractic manipulation, soft tissue mobilization, or other methods) because the purpose of the study was to evaluate outcomes from routine chiropractic practice. Patients completed a numerical pain rating scale and Oswestry disability questionnaire immediately before treatment and at 1 week, 1 month, and 3 months after the start of treatment, together with self-reported improvement using the Patient Global Impression of Change.
RESULTS: Patients with acute (<4 weeks; n = 523) and chronic (>3 months; n = 293) LBP were included. Baseline mean pain and disability scores were significantly (P < .001) higher in patients with acute LBP. In both groups of patients, there were significant (P < .0001) improvements in mean scores of pain and disability at 1 week, 1 month, and 3 months, although these change scores were significantly greater in the acute group. Similarly, a greater proportion of patients in the acute group reported improvement at each follow-up. The most consistent predictor was self-reported improvement at 1 week, which was independently associated with improvement at 1 month (adjusted odds ratio [OR], 2.4 [95% confidence interval, 1.3-4.5] and 5.0 [2.4-10.6]) and at 3 months (2.9 [1.3-6.6] and 3.3 [1.3-8.7]) in patients with acute and chronic pain, respectively. The presence of radiculopathy at baseline was not a predictor of outcome.
CONCLUSIONS: Patients with chronic and acute pain reporting that they were "much better" or "better" on the Patient Global Impression of Change scale at 1 week after the first chiropractic visit were 4 to 5 times more likely to be improved at both 1 and 3 months compared with patients who were not improved at 1 week. Patients with acute pain reported more severe pain and disability initially but recovered faster. Patients with chronic and acute back pain both reported good outcomes, and most patients with radiculopathy also improved.
From the FULL TEXT Article
Introduction:
Research into mechanical low back pain (LBP) is ongoing because it is so common and leads to high health care costs. [1-19] The point prevalence of LBP is stated to be between 15% and 30%, the 1-year period prevalence between 15% and 45%, and a life-time prevalence of 50% to 80%. [7, 18, 19] It is also expensive to treat, with billions of dollars and billions of Euros spent per year in Western societies. [7, 18, 19] Between the years 1997 and 2005, the total estimated expenditures for patients with spine problems in the United States increased 65%, which was higher than overall health expenditures. [18] People with neck or back pain who also reported that physical impairment increased from 20.7% to 24.7% in that same period. [18] Low back pain is a significant burden not only to the individual who has it but also to their families, workplace, and society in general. In Europe, the yearly burden of LBP to society amounts to €211 per person in Sweden and €260 per person in the United Kingdom. [19]
Although LBP remains the most common musculoskeletal complaint presenting to physicians and other therapists, controversy remains surrounding the precise cause of the pain in many patients, appropriate therapies, subgroups of patients likely to improve with treatment and/or have more favorable prognoses, and associated medical costs. [1-10] To date, there is more evidence supporting chiropractic treatment of chronic LBP and LBP without concomitant radiating leg pain than for patients with acute or subacute pain and those with radiculopathy or sciatica. [2, 10-12] In chronic LBP, recent studies indicate that significant improvement is often fairly rapid, usually by the fourth visit, and that patients initially receiving treatment 3 to 4 times a week have better outcomes. [7, 8, 14] Although evidence is less clear for patients complaining of LBP of less than 3-month duration, it is suggested that spinal manipulation produces slightly better results than placebo, no treatment, and other noninvasive therapies. [5]
Some authors claim that patients more likely to respond to spinal manipulative therapy in the short term can be identified by specific physical and demographic factors. [2] However, many of these studies on spinal manipulative therapy are compromised by fairly small sample sizes and short-term follow-up, [2, 4, 7] and more research is needed to substantiate or refute these findings. Other larger studies with similar research protocols to this study have attempted to subgroup patients with LBP based on the clinical course of their condition. [8, 9, 13-15] Few demographic variables that are linked to clinical improvement in patients with LBP have been found thus far. The strongest and most consistent finding in studies looking at predictors of improvement is how quickly the patient responds to treatment. [8, 9, 13-15] It appears that if a patient will have a favorable outcome, the response to therapy is rapid. Although it is known that most patients with acute LBP improve very quickly and that this improvement may depend little on the treatment given, it is the patients with chronic LBP that provide the major challenge to clinicians and insurers. Patients with chronic LBP are also responsible for considerable costs because of a higher number of diagnostic procedures, treatment, and loss of productivity. [16, 17] Further large, prospective, cohort studies from other cultural environments are needed to confirm the prognostic factors reported in previous studies, as well as to investigate additional predictors of positive or negative outcomes, particularly coexisting radiculopathy.
It is not known if these same prognostic factors are applicable to chiropractic patients from other cultural or geographic regions. Therefore, this study was designed to investigate outcomes and prognostic factors linked with clinically significant improvement for patients with either acute or chronic LBP undergoing chiropractic treatment.
Discussion:
This prognostic cohort study with medium-term outcomes supports previous research that patients with LBP undergoing chiropractic treatment who are likely to respond do so very quickly. [8, 9, 13-15] This was not only true for patients presenting with acute (<4 weeks) LBP but, importantly, also for patients with chronic pain for greater than 3 months. Patients with chronic and acute pain reporting that they were much better or better on the PGIC scale at 1 week after the first chiropractic visit were 4 to 5 times more likely to be improved at both 1 and 3 months compared with patients who were not improved at 1 week. Patients who reported that they were “slightly better” on the PGIC scale were not considered improved in this study to err on the side of caution in defining clinically relevant improvement. Improvement is much more than just changes in the pain severity. It incorporates functional status and quality of life parameters, as well. The PGIC scale allows patients to express their multidimensional experience from their own viewpoint as to what is important to them in terms of “improvement” or “not-improved.” [23] Several other related studies, particularly from Denmark, have also reported that chiropractic patients who respond early on in the course of treatment usually have a more favorable outcome. [8-10, 13-15, 24] This current study, however, found that unlike previous work that reported that patients only improved up to week 7, [14] the patients with acute and chronic pain in Switzerland continued to improve on all outcome measures at each time point including at 3 months after the first chiropractic consultation.
Although in the univariate analysis, several potential predictors of outcome were identified, in the adjusted models, relatively few were identified as independently associated with improvement. None of the baseline variables collected in this study independently predicted outcome at 1 or 3 months for patients with acute or chronic pain, with the exception of trauma as the cause of the LBP in patients with chronic pain. This was only independently associated with outcome at 1 month, however. The most consistent independent association with improvement for both patients with acute pain and patients with chronic pain at both the 1- and 3-month time points was patient-reported improvement at 1 week after the start of treatment. Patients with acute and chronic pain who were improved at 1 week were approximately 3 times more likely to be improved at 3 months. Patients with chronic pain who also had a larger baseline to 1-month NRS change score were more likely to be improved at 3 months. Improvement at 1 month was also independently associated with improvement at 3 months for patients with acute pain.
The patients with acute pain in this study had significantly higher baseline NRS and Oswestry scores compared with the patients with chronic pain, as well as improved faster and with greater magnitude. At 3 months, 88% reported being much better or better. Their 3-month mean Oswestry score decreased by 74%, and their mean NRS score was 72% lower at 3 months compared with baseline. Much of this improvement is likely to be due to the natural history of LBP, and any specific treatment effects cannot be determined from a prospective cohort study of this type. However, even the patients with chronic pain demonstrated significant improvement at each time point, with 69% stating that they were much better or better at 3 months. This is unlikely to be due to the natural history of LBP because these patients have already passed the period when natural history occurs. The mean 3-month Oswestry score for the patients with chronic pain was decreased by 37%, and their mean NRS score was 39% lower than the baseline score. These values are well beyond the 30% reduction in NRS and Oswestry scores that has been identified as clinically meaningful improvement. [8, 25]
Although the Oswestry pain and disability questionnaire is probably not the best outcome measure for this patient population, having been designed for more severe and surgical cases, it was used because it had been translated and validated into German and French. Certainly, the fairly low mean baseline scores of 14.7 for patients with acute pain and 10.1 for patients with chronic pain of a maximum of 50 points reflects the inadequacy of this questionnaire for this patient population. Another questionnaire would have been preferred but was not available in the required languages. Interestingly, the univariate predictors showed that male patients were more likely to improve compared with female patients at 1 week, 1 month, and even 3 months in the acute patient group. Although sex was no longer a predictor of outcome in the multivariate model, other research has found that men have better outcomes than did women when undergoing chiropractic treatment. [9, 26] This sex difference was also seen when looking at the proportion of men and women in the acute and chronic subgroups in this study. Patients with acute pain showed a fairly even sex distribution, whereas a significantly higher percentage of patients with chronic pain were female (58%). This supports the observation that being male leads to a more favorable outcome when presenting with acute LBP. One possible explanation for the higher prevalence of patients with chronic pain being female is that degenerative lumbar instability is more common in middle-aged and older women. [27, 28]
An important and unique finding in this current study is that although 123 (23%) of the patients with acute LBP and 71 (24%) of the patients with chronic LBP were diagnosed by their chiropractors as having radiculopathy, this finding was not a negative predictor of improvement. Radiculopathy was not simply defined as leg pain but required clinical signs of nerve root compression as determined by the examining chiropractor. Previous studies investigating outcomes from patients with LBP undergoing spinal manipulation have purposely excluded patients with radiculopathy, [2, 10, 29] and others have found that the presence of leg pain is a negative predictor of improvement. [12, 24, 30] This study purposely included these patients to evaluate this subgroup. It is quite common for patients with LBP experiencing radiculopathy to seek chiropractic care in Switzerland and to receive spinal manipulative therapy as one of the treatment options.
The results of this study could help practicing chiropractors make more confident decisions about patient prognosis based on how quickly individual patients respond to their treatment. Chiropractors can also expect most of their patients with acute and chronic pain to continue to improve at least up to 3 months after the start of treatment, even if they are no longer being treated. These results also offer support for the use of chiropractic treatment for patients with radiculopathy.
Future follow-up studies from this project, in addition to the longer-term outcomes and prognostic variables being currently collected, could include qualitative studies comparing practice characteristics and techniques that may be linked with improved outcomes. During data entry, one of the authors noticed that certain practitioners seemed to obtain better patient outcomes compared with others. Obtaining detailed information concerning practice environments, types of treatments used, treatment schedules, doctor-patient communication styles, and types of patients who seek care from those individual practitioners with better patient outcomes would be beneficial for chiropractic education at both the undergraduate and the postgraduate level. These data could help to inform “best practice.”
Limitations
Because this was a prospective cohort study and not a randomized trial, the observed outcomes cannot be definitively attributed to treatment. However, that a high percentage of patients with chronic pain improved is unlikely to be the result of the natural history of LBP. In addition, based on the pragmatic nature of this study, we do not know how many times the patients were treated during the treatment period or the specifics of the therapeutic interventions. However, based on the Swiss Job Analysis Survey 2009, it is likely that most patients were treated with diversified chiropractic spinal manipulation. It has been suggested that there is a positive relationship between the number of chiropractic treatments on LBP and disability for patients with chronic pain. [7] These would be interesting research areas to pursue in future studies.
Using telephone interviews, as compared with questionnaires or text messaging, may have had a positive effect on the outcomes obtained, as reported in other studies. [31-33] An attempt to minimize this effect was done by employing anonymous research assistants who collected the data from the university rather than contacting the patients directly from chiropractic offices. We also do not know if these 44 chiropractors who chose to contribute patients for this study are a fair representation of the “typical” Swiss DC. Because the participating DCs seem to be more interested in furthering chiropractic research, they may be a special population. Finally, patients in the subacute category, the least common presentation period in this database, were not included in this study, and there is a need to evaluate this patient group in the future.
Conclusions:
In this study, most patients with acute and chronic LBP undergoing chiropractic treatment reported clinically significant improvement. Unlike previously reported studies, patients continued to improve, even after 3 months. As expected, improvement was quicker and more substantial for patients with acute pain. The strongest independent predictor for improvement at 1 and 3 months in both patients with acute pain and patients with chronic pain was whether or not the patient had improved by 1 week. Patients with chronic pain whose LBP was caused by trauma were also more likely to improve at 1 month. Also, unlike previous studies, the presence of radiculopathy in addition to LBP was not a negative predictor for improvement.
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No one is saying that u can't get symptom alleviation from chiropractic. But u can also get improvement from the local masseuse as well and she's not claiming to be some type of medical professional. And BTW, most, if not all, US courts of law deem chiropractors unqualified to testify as to the interpretation of MRI films.
Show the law or cite a case sir. We may not be able to bill for technical component, but we can bill for professional. Are you are that any film studies have two components to that?
You aren't going to cry any time soon...are you?
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FROM: Spine 2013 (Apr 1); 38 (7): 540–548
von Heymann, Wolfgang J. Dr. Med; Schloemer, Patrick Dipl. Math; Timm, Juergen Dr. RER, NAT, PhD; Muehlbauer, Bernd Dr. Med
STUDY DESIGN: A randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled, parallel trial with 3 arms.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate in acute nonspecific low back pain (LBP) the effectiveness of spinal high-velocity low-amplitude (HVLA) manipulation compared with the nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug diclofenac and with placebo.
SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: LBP is an important economical factor in all industrialized countries. Few studies have evaluated the effectiveness of spinal manipulation in comparison to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs or placebo regarding satisfaction and function of the patient, off-work time, and rescue medication.
METHODS: A total of 101 patients with acute LBP (for <48 hr) were recruited from 5 outpatient practices, exclusion criteria were numerous and strict. The subjects were randomized to 3 groups:
(1) spinal manipulation and placebo-diclofenac;
(2) sham manipulation and diclofenac;
(3) sham manipulation and placebo-diclofenac.
Outcomes registered by a second and blinded investigator included self-rated physical disability, function (SF-12), off-work time, and rescue medication between baseline and 12 weeks after randomization.
RESULTS: Thirty-seven subjects received spinal manipulation, 38 diclofenac, and 25 no active treatment. The placebo group with a high number of dropouts for unsustainable pain was closed praecox. Comparing the 2 active arms with the placebo group the intervention groups were significantly superior to the control group. Ninety subjects were analyzed in the collective intention to treat. Comparing the 2 intervention groups, the manipulation group was significantly better than the diclofenac group (Mann-Whitney test: P = 0.0134). No adverse effects or harm was registered.
CONCLUSION: In a subgroup of patients with acute nonspecific LBP, spinal manipulation was significantly better than nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug diclofenac and clinically superior to placebo.
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Slightly off topic, but I thought that this rate of failed surgery was interesting. Especially to the two gentlemen here who claim what we do is quackery.
New Study Reveals That Back Surgery
Fails 74% of the Time
This section is compiled by Frank M. Painter, D.C.
Send all comments or additions to: Frankp@chiro.org
Editorial Commentary:
Researchers reviewed records from 1,450 patients in the Ohio Bureau of Workers’ Compensation database who had diagnoses of disc degeneration, disc herniation or radiculopathy, a nerve condition that causes tingling and weakness of the limbs. Half of the patients had surgery to fuse two or more vertebrae in hopes of curing low back pain. The other half had no surgery, even though they had comparable diagnoses.
After two years, just 26 percent of those who had surgery had actually returned to work. That’s compared to 67 percent of patients who didn’t have surgery. In what might be the most troubling study finding, researchers determined that there was a 41 percent increase in the use of painkillers, specifically opiates, in those who had surgery.
“The study [1] provides clear evidence that for many patients, fusion surgeries designed to alleviate pain from degenerating discs don’t work”, says the study’s lead author Dr. Trang Nguyen, a researcher at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine. [2]
Just a month after back surgery, Nancy Scatena was once again in excruciating pain. The medications her doctor prescribed barely took the edge off the unrelenting back aches and searing jolts down her left leg. “The pain just kept intensifying,” says the 52-year-old Scottsdale, Ariz., woman who suffers from spinal stenosis, a narrowing of the chanel through which spinal nerves pass. “I was suicidal.”
Finally, Scatena made an appointment with another surgeon, one whom friends had called a “miracle worker.” The new doctor assured her that this second operation would fix everything, and in the pain-free weeks following an operation to fuse two of her vertebrae it seemed that he was right. But then the pain came roaring back.
Experts estimate that nearly 600,000 Americans opt for back operations each year. But for many like Scatena, surgery is just an empty promise, say pain management experts and some surgeons.
This Spine Journal study [1] shows that, in many cases, surgery can backfire, leaving patients in even more pain.
The study provides clear evidence that for many patients, fusion surgeries designed to alleviate pain from degenerating discs don’t work, says the study’s lead author Dr. Trang Nguyen, a researcher at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine. [3]
27 Million Adults With Back Problems
A recent report by the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, a federal organization, found that in 2007, twenty-seven million adults reported back problems, with $30.3 billion spent on treatments to ease the pain. While some of that money is spent on physical therapy, pain management, chiropractor visits, and other non invasive therapies, a big chunk pays for spine surgeries.
Complicated spine surgeries that involve fusing two or more vertebrae are on the rise. In just 15 years, there was an eight-fold jump in this type of operation, according to a study published in Spine in July. That has some surgeons and public health experts concerned. [4]
You may also want to review the recently published European Guidelines for the Management of Acute and Chronic Nonspecific Low Back Pain, which specifically states:
"Surgery for non-specific CLBP cannot be recommended unless 2 years of all other recommended conservative treatments — including multidisciplinary approaches with combined programs of cognitive intervention and exercises — have failed".
This study re-confirms the findings of the UK BEAM Trial, published in the British Medical Journal in 2004. [5] Those authors stated:
"Manipulation, with or without exercise, improved symptoms more than best care (medical care) alone after three and 12 months. However, analysis of the cost utility of different strategies shows that manipulation alone probably gives better value for money than manipulation followed by exercise" (page 1381).
You may also want to read these 3 recent Editorials:
Why Do Spinal Surgery Rates Continue To Rise?
Chiro.Org Blog ~ April 10th, 2010
New Study Finds Chiropractic Care Superior to Family Physician-directed Usual Care
Chiro.Org Blog ~ October 7th, 2010
If Not Chiropractic Care, Then What’s Your Alternative?
Chiro.Org Blog ~ September 25th, 2010
REFERENCES:
Long-term Outcomes of Lumbar Fusion Among Workers' Compensation Subjects: An Historical Cohort Study
SPINE (Phila Pa 1976) 2011 (Feb 15); 36 (4): 320–331
Study Says Back Surgery Often Makes Things Worse
The Daily Hit ~ Oct 14, 2010
Back Surgery May Backfire On Patients In Pain
MSNBC.com ~ Oct 14, 2010
Why Do Spinal Surgery Rates Continue To Rise?
Chiro.Org Blog Editorial ~ April 10th, 2010
Findings from the: “United Kingdom Back Pain Exercise and Manipulation (UK BEAM) Randomised Trial”
British Medical Journal 2004 (Dec 11); 329 (7479)
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Alright I'm done for now. there's literally thousands of articles of peer reviewed literature backing what we do. And I only posted ones regarding LBP! :D I even found new sources listing hundreds more.
Here's what it comes Down to. This old school attitude that ether/cholo have is dying out. They claim we have zero research. Then when I provide a few PR'd articles, they claim they are irrelevant because they are not done by their profession ??? The new docs like Danny-boy, and all the other MD's I know, share a mutual respect.
This logic would mean that I could say "the medical profession's research is irrelevant because it was done by biased observers." ::)
There is a plethora of PR'd articles out there that show our effectiveness, within our scope of practice. I don't have to argue it...the research speaks for itself.
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Alright I'm done for now. there's literally thousands of articles of peer reviewed literature backing what we do. And I only posted ones regarding LBP! :D I even found new sources listing hundreds more.
Here's what it comes Down to. This old school attitude that ether/cholo have is dying out. They claim we have zero research. Then when I provide a few PR'd articles, they claim they are irrelevant because they are not done by their profession ??? The new docs like Danny-boy, and all the other MD's I know, share a mutual respect.
This logic would mean that I could say "the medical profession's research is irrelevant because it was done by biased observers." ::)
There is a plethora of PR'd articles out there that show our effectiveness, within our scope of practice. I don't have to argue it...the research speaks for itself.
Just shut up and go massage someone's back already. Stop being a moron. >:(
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Just shut up and go massage someone's back already. Stop being a moron. >:(
Im all out of magic crystals though...you know I never perform "healing" without my magic crystals.
:D
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I don't know about the gimmicks, but I at least don't doubt the efficacy of certain chiropractic treatments; I'm simply asking for a single study indicating that these treatments are efficacious above and beyond the placebo effect. I still haven't seen one such study.
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Don't really understand your post bro. There's thousands of these studies. I posted like 3. One even compared to placebo effect.
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I don't know about the gimmicks, but I at least don't doubt the efficacy of certain chiropractic treatments; I'm simply asking for a single study indicating that these treatments are efficacious above and beyond the placebo effect. I still haven't seen one such study.
CONCLUSION: In a subgroup of patients with acute nonspecific LBP, spinal manipulation was significantly better than nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug diclofenac and clinically superior to placebo.
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I don't know about the gimmicks, but I at least don't doubt the efficacy of certain chiropractic treatments; I'm simply asking for a single study indicating that these treatments are efficacious above and beyond the placebo effect. I still haven't seen one such study.
off the top of my head how about the landmark Rand study on Chiro? I'm in a car so just google it. Yeah I'm parked right now :)
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I don't know about the gimmicks, but I at least don't doubt the efficacy of certain chiropractic treatments; I'm simply asking for a single study indicating that these treatments are efficacious above and beyond the placebo effect. I still haven't seen one such study.
April 2007 Newsletter:
Acute Moderate Back pain or Discal hernia and Sciatica: RCT of Chiropractic vs. Placebo
The most recent randomized control group trial of chiropractic manipulation for acute moderate back or disc pain with leg pain (sciatica) was reported in the prestigious medical journal Spine last year. Sixty-four men and 38 women aged 19 to 63 were randomized to chiropractic manipulation (53) or placebo (49) manipulations, at rehabilitation centers in and around Rome, Italy. Chiropractic adjustments or simulated adjustments (placebo) were administered five times per week for up to one month, and blinded examiners evaluated the patients. Six months later only 6% of patients receiving placebo adjustments were free of back pain, while 28% of patients receiving actual chiropractic adjustments no longer had back pain. Similarly, only 20% of patients with sciatica were pain free after placebo, while 55% of patients with leg pain were pain free after chiropractic adjustments at six months. Patients receiving actual chiropractic adjustments had fewer days with pain, and fewer days with moderate or severe pain as well. All findings were statistically significant, as well as clinically meaningful. Only two patients failed to improve at all, one receiving chiropractic adjustments, and one receiving placebo adjustments. There were no adverse reactions reported. So what does this study tell us? First, the study confirms many other studies in the past two decades that show that the natural history of even moderate to severe back and leg pain favors remission. Put simply, patients receiving both chiropractic treatment and placebo improved over six months. Remember that May 2005 study reported in the British Medical Journal that revealed no clinically meaningful differences two years after chronic disc hernia patients were randomized to back surgery or rehabilitative exercises? Surgeons concluded that there was no compelling evidence that surgery was more effective than exercise, and that both groups had significant reductions in disability two years later. Still another study of 501 subjects reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association in November 2006, that there were no meaningful differences in outcomes between patients randomized to surgical diskectomy or non-operative treatment
including physical therapy.
Excuse me while I go dance around a patient with some incense and chant a little. He dropped his wallet so I hope I can distract him long enough to look through it and get his credit card info. I love my job!!!! ;D
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http://www.chirobase.org/
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http://www.chirobase.org/
Ahhhh the old Barrett guy. Just a little info on this little gem...
Stephen Barrett - Professional Crackpot...
Barrett never achieved any success in the medical profession. His claim to being a "retired Psychiatrist" is laughable. He is, in fact, a "failed Psychiatrist," and a "failed MD."
The Psychiatric profession rejected Barrett years ago, for Barrett could NOT pass the examinations necessary to become "Board Certified." Which, is no doubt why Barrett was, throughout his career, relegated to lower level "part time" positions.
Barrett, we know, was forced to give up his medical license in Pennsylvania in 1993 when his "part-time" employment at the State Mental Hospital was terminated, and he had so few (nine) private patients during his last five years of practice, that he couldn't afford the Malpractice Insurance premiums Pennsylvania requires.
In a job market in the United States, where there is a "doctor shortage," Stephen Barrett, after his termination by the State mental Hospital, couldn't find employment. He was in his mid-50s at the time. He should have been at the top of his craft - yet, apparently, he couldn't find work.
It is obvious, that, after one humiliation after another, in 1993 Barrett simply gave up his medical aspirations, turned in his MD license, and retreated, in bitterness and frustration, to his basement.
It was in that basement, where Barrett took up "quackbusting" - which, in reality, means that Barrett attacks "cutting-edge" health professionals and paradigms - those that ARE achieving success in their segment of health care.
And there, in "quackbusting" is where Barrett finally found the attention and recognition he seems to crave - for, a while, that is, until three California Judges, in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court decision, took a HARD look at Barrett's activities, and declared him "biased, and unworthy of credibility."
Bitterness against successful health professionals is Barrett's hallmark. To him they're all "quacks." In this, his essays are repetitive and pedestrian.
Barrett, in his writings, says the same things, the same way, every time - change the victim and the subject, and still you yawn your way through his offerings. It's like he's filling out a form somebody gave him...
Take an overactive self importance, couple it with glaring failure and rejection in his chosen profession, add a cup of molten hatred for those that do succeed, pop it in the oven - and out comes Stephen Barrett - self-styled "expert in everything."
Barrett, we know, along with his website, was named, among other things, in a racketeering (RICO) case in Federal Court in Colorado.
He's also being sued for his nefarious activities in Ontario, Canada.
Barrett, in the Canadian case, has formally admitted, according to Canadian law, to a number of situations put to him by the Plaintiff, including:
"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."
"Barrett has interfered with the civil rights of numerous Americans, in his efforts to have his critics silenced."
"Barrett has strategically orchestrated the filing of legal actions in improper jurisdictions for the purpose of frustrating the victims of such lawsuits and increasing his victims costs."
"Barrett failed the exams he was required to pass to become a Board Certified Medical Doctor."
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Ahhhh the old Barrett guy. Just a little info on this little gem...
Stephen Barrett - Professional Crackpot...
Barrett never achieved any success in the medical profession. His claim to being a "retired Psychiatrist" is laughable. He is, in fact, a "failed Psychiatrist," and a "failed MD."
The Psychiatric profession rejected Barrett years ago, for Barrett could NOT pass the examinations necessary to become "Board Certified." Which, is no doubt why Barrett was, throughout his career, relegated to lower level "part time" positions.
Barrett, we know, was forced to give up his medical license in Pennsylvania in 1993 when his "part-time" employment at the State Mental Hospital was terminated, and he had so few (nine) private patients during his last five years of practice, that he couldn't afford the Malpractice Insurance premiums Pennsylvania requires.
In a job market in the United States, where there is a "doctor shortage," Stephen Barrett, after his termination by the State mental Hospital, couldn't find employment. He was in his mid-50s at the time. He should have been at the top of his craft - yet, apparently, he couldn't find work.
It is obvious, that, after one humiliation after another, in 1993 Barrett simply gave up his medical aspirations, turned in his MD license, and retreated, in bitterness and frustration, to his basement.
It was in that basement, where Barrett took up "quackbusting" - which, in reality, means that Barrett attacks "cutting-edge" health professionals and paradigms - those that ARE achieving success in their segment of health care.
And there, in "quackbusting" is where Barrett finally found the attention and recognition he seems to crave - for, a while, that is, until three California Judges, in a PUBLISHED Appeals Court decision, took a HARD look at Barrett's activities, and declared him "biased, and unworthy of credibility."
Bitterness against successful health professionals is Barrett's hallmark. To him they're all "quacks." In this, his essays are repetitive and pedestrian.
Barrett, in his writings, says the same things, the same way, every time - change the victim and the subject, and still you yawn your way through his offerings. It's like he's filling out a form somebody gave him...
Take an overactive self importance, couple it with glaring failure and rejection in his chosen profession, add a cup of molten hatred for those that do succeed, pop it in the oven - and out comes Stephen Barrett - self-styled "expert in everything."
Barrett, we know, along with his website, was named, among other things, in a racketeering (RICO) case in Federal Court in Colorado.
He's also being sued for his nefarious activities in Ontario, Canada.
Barrett, in the Canadian case, has formally admitted, according to Canadian law, to a number of situations put to him by the Plaintiff, including:
"The sole purpose of the activities of Barrett & Baratz are to discredit and cause damage and harm to health care practitioners, businesses that make alternative health therapies or products available, and advocates of non-allopathic therapies and health freedom."
"Barrett has interfered with the civil rights of numerous Americans, in his efforts to have his critics silenced."
"Barrett has strategically orchestrated the filing of legal actions in improper jurisdictions for the purpose of frustrating the victims of such lawsuits and increasing his victims costs."
"Barrett failed the exams he was required to pass to become a Board Certified Medical Doctor."
sounds like a real getbigger. Does he post here?