Chiropractors more harm than good?

[Big Chiro Flex]

I always told Chaos, if he keeps sticking strange things up his ass in such an aggressive manner it would eventually catch up to him. Lateral epicondylitis is a bitch.

[chaos]

You can tell who takes himself far too serious in this thread.

[Big Chiro Flex]

You can tell who takes himself far too serious in this thread.

 


(Check your PM, bitch.)

[Coach is Back!]

stop training so damn much and maybe you wouldn't get so fucked up, athletes have injuries and surgery and treatments all the time to function well, ridiculous

No, thats incorrect. If an athlete is injured, its not because they're "training all the time" as in the weight room. If they are getting injured in the weight room its usually due to incorrect technique or poor programming. If an athlete has a non-collision injury on the field ie: Hamstring it generally falls on the S&C coach especially if team injury percentage is high. If you really want to see who the good S&C coaches are, look to their injured reserve.

[Devon97]

I am glad you clarified that.  I would now ask this.  Do these chiro's say they are experts or is that just a descriptor thrown out by you by what they say?  Would someone who has been through many years of #1 and #2, then decided to become a chiro, still be considered an expert?

Someone who already has (#1 & #2) demonstrable success as a strength coach/trainer isn't going to want or need to be a chiro. He'll already be so successful with a thriving business he'll be content & fulfilled with that.
If he want's a chiro care he'll just hire one.

[ether]

LOL

You should probable re-write this, especially after you got your ass handed to you by Krankenstein.

You clearly show a tremendous lack of knowledge about my field, it's peer-reviewed journals, or how to make insightful posts.

Lastly, please show me where i am wrong regarding sugar, and cancer.  You clearly haven't spent much time researching it. My points are not even debatable. You will realize this once you dig into a few books and spend some hours on pubmed. It scares me to think that you are even arguing with me about this and you could possibly be treating cancer patients one day without discussing this  

I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.

When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.

In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.

And yes, MOST of what I learned in medical school is completely out of date. The physiology and anatomy are the same but the treatments are completely different. Where was SORAFENIB for HCC 5 years ago, this class of drugs is revolutionizing chemotherapy and treatment of most solid tumors....but of course, the big bad medical industry is just fleesing it's consumers and they could have the same results from a little splenda right?

[Slik]

Wow. This thread still going strong?  I was too busy killing babies, stroking out people and curing cancer to notice. 

[Big Chiro Flex]

I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.

When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.

In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.

And yes, MOST of what I learned in medical school is completely out of date. The physiology and anatomy are the same but the treatments are completely different. Where was SORAFENIB for HCC 5 years ago, this class of drugs is revolutionizing chemotherapy and treatment of most solid tumors....but of course, the big bad medical industry is just fleesing it's consumers and they could have the same results from a little splenda right?

I'm not trying to treat cancer Dr. Ether. But I can still have an educated discussion regarding its link to sugar.  You're entitled to your opinion about my scope of practice. Luckily you don't legislate what I can or can not do. I still have the utmost respect for your field of medicine and see it as an absolute necessity in healthcare. But my points were spot on in regards to the nutritional aspect. You're the one who took cheap shots at me, as well as putting bullshit words into my mouth and twisting what I say....I'm not gonna get into a shit slinging match with you. You really don't appear to be addressing any of my points, just making brash generalizations.

[Krankenstein]

Someone who already has (#1 & #2) demonstrable success as a strength coach/trainer isn't going to want or need to be a chiro. He'll already be so successful with a thriving business he'll be content & fulfilled with that.
If he want's a chiro care he'll just hire one.

There are many that have walked away from 'thriving' careers to pursue other interests.

I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.

When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.

In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.

And yes, MOST of what I learned in medical school is completely out of date. The physiology and anatomy are the same but the treatments are completely different. Where was SORAFENIB for HCC 5 years ago, this class of drugs is revolutionizing chemotherapy and treatment of most solid tumors....but of course, the big bad medical industry is just fleesing it's consumers and they could have the same results from a little splenda right?

At what point did anyone ever say chiropractic care cures cancer?  Do you deny that research has shown that cancer cells are obligate users of sugar?  In addition, when did Chiro or I say that we can cure the 'serious' diseases.  As far as I am concerned, 'real doctors' didn't do shit for my father...and there are a myriad of other things that are left to the 'real doctors' and they come up short.  There are new drugs and surgeries coming out every month, year, or whatever.  Congrats.  I am glad I don't have to keep up on the drug interactions like a medical doctor does or a pharmacist.  I do, however, check drug interactions when a patient comes into my office with a drug list longer than 2 - 3 in length.  I wish I could give you the statistics of how many have had serious interaction warning when I checked them all out.  Can I ask you how I should view the 'real' doctor who missed the diagnoses on the patient I mentioned earlier?  I will tell you how I felt...I am glad that I got the diagnosis correct and that the mom had the confidence in me to look at her daughter when she knew something was wrong that 'icing' it wasn't the correct treatment.

The allopathic model has their drugs and 5 min exams billed out as a 99204...just great.  Next time you encounter a 'real' doctor getting kick backs for prescribing one drug over another...smile and say "thank god he isn't a chiropractor"

[Devon97]

There are many that have walked away from 'thriving' careers to pursue other interests.

of course many people have 

[Krankenstein]

of course many people have 

Yes, many have.  Note, I didn't single out people quitting to become chiropractors.  I am saying in general.  People don't always work in the field they are passionate about.  Not sure how old you are, but I would bet if you asked people around you who have been in their line of work for many, many years if they are passionate about what they do you might be surprised by the responses.  Many get caught up in the 'paycheck' and never go on to do things that make them happy.

[RadOncDoc]

I treat cancer patients every day. Have done so for the last 10 years.

When a patient comes to see me with hepatocellular carcinoma or cholangiocarcinoma, what should I tell them next time....don't opt for the surgery, just go see Dr. Tom at the mall pushing his giant mock up model of the lumbar spine up and down the mall and he'll crack your back and get you on that keto diet so fast your liver won't know what hit it.

In my opinion, chiropractic has it's role just like like sports medicine, treat minor injuries and nagging musculoskeletal problems like tendonitis and back pain. Leave cancer and other serious diseases to real doctors.

How about you damn med oncs start sending your HCCAs to me for RT instead of trying all these second and third line TKIs?!

[ether]

How about you damn med oncs start sending your HCCAs to me for RT instead of trying all these second and third line TKIs?!

I only used Sorafenib as an example. Obvioulsy, CK treatment would also qualify as an example of something that didn't even exist when I did medical school and we use it all the time.

But hell, why do we even exist when we could just switch all our patients to sweet n low and watch those tumors just melt away

[D.O.U.P]

Most chiro's are incompetent, scamming fools.

THAT'S the problem.The shitty outweighs the good.

MY chiro is AMAZING. He has reduced my neck pain/stiffness 75% and fixed a foot problem that was causing severe pain which kept me from doing ANY cardio for three months. FIXED IT 100%!

I have sent him two patients and BOTH have told me that my doc has helped big time.

Find a GOOD CHIRO. A GOOD ONE.

[Big Chiro Flex]

I only used Sorafenib as an example. Obvioulsy, CK treatment would also qualify as an example of something that didn't even exist when I did medical school and we use it all the time.

But hell, why do we even exist when we could just switch all our patients to sweet n low and watch those tumors just melt away

Lol, you respond in the same butt hurt way as you do in your Palumbo threads.

Nobody said sweet and low cures cancer. Good luck with your practice doc.

[Krankenstein]

I only used Sorafenib as an example. Obvioulsy, CK treatment would also qualify as an example of something that didn't even exist when I did medical school and we use it all the time.

But hell, why do we even exist when we could just switch all our patients to sweet n low and watch those tumors just melt away

Really?  Sweet and Low can do that???

"The initial recognition that cancer cells exhibit atypical metabolic characteristics can be traced to the pioneering work of Otto Warburg over the fi rst half of the twentieth
century ( 13–15 ). In the presence of oxygen, most normal tissues metabolize glucose to pyruvate through glycolysis, and then completely oxidize a large fraction of the generated pyruvate to carbon dioxide in the mitochondria through oxidative phosphorylation. Under anaerobic conditions, normal cells redirect glycolytic pyruvate away from mitochondrial oxidation and instead largely reduce it to lactate ( 10 ). The fundamental paradigm stemming from Warburg’s studies was that in contrast to normal cells, rapidly proliferating ascites tumors metabolized glucose to lactate under aerobic conditions despite this process being far less efficient (∼18-fold) in terms of net ATP production per molecule of glucose ( 10 ). This seemingly paradoxical phenomenon, termed the Warburg effect or aerobic glycolysis, has since been observed across several tumor types and often occurs in parallel with a marked increase in glucose uptake and consumption, as visualized—and clinically exploited—through the use of 18 F-deoxyglucose-positron emission tomography ( 16 )."

Aggressive carcinomas ferment glucose to lactate even in the presence of oxygen. This particular metabolism, termed aerobic glycolysis, the glycolytic phenotype, or the Warburg effect, was discovered by Nobel laureate Otto Warburg in the 1920s. Since these times, controversial discussions about the relevance of the fermentation of glucose by tumours took place; however, a majority of cancer researchers considered the Warburg effect as a non-causative epiphenomenon. Recent research demonstrated, that several common oncogenic events favour the expression of the glycolytic phenotype. Moreover, a suppression of the phenotypic features by either substrate limitation, pharmacological intervention, or genetic manipulation was found to mediate potent tumour-suppressive effects.

Now, in no way did I ever say refrain from any carbohydrate intake.  I am merely saying that reduction in carbohydrates would be better served with a cancer patient.  Looking at what my father was fed in the hospital while going through all his treatment pissed me off.

Why is it so difficult for you to just agree/concede that what I am saying is correct.  Cancer cells are obligate glucose metabolizers.

[Devon97]

Yes, many have.  Note, I didn't single out people quitting to become chiropractors.  I am saying in general.  People don't always work in the field they are passionate about.  Not sure how old you are, but I would bet if you asked people around you who have been in their line of work for many, many years if they are passionate about what they do you might be surprised by the responses.  Many get caught up in the 'paycheck' and never go on to do things that make them happy.

Maybe I missed the boat but I thought we were talking about expert strength & conditioning professions w/ a thriving business leaving it behind to start a career in chiropractic

[Krankenstein]

Maybe I missed the boat but I thought we were talking about expert strength & conditioning professions w/ a thriving business leaving it behind to start a career in chiropractic

It can happen with anything....Attorney leaving firm to start a business, Doctors quitting practice...etc.  I had a patient who was a big exec with motorola.  He left his job and opened coffee shops.  Just because someone is an expert in any field doesn't mean that one day they might wake up and say "I think I have had enough of this".  So, could they leave to become a chiro?  Sure.  Could they suddenly say they want to become a chef?  Sure.  You appear to think that leaving the strength and conditioning profession and entering the chiro profession is a step down. 

[ether]

Lol, you respond in the same butt hurt way as you do in your Palumbo threads.

Nobody said sweet and low cures cancer. Good luck with your practice doc.

Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.

[Slik]

Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.

and we'll say hello to u n r buddy's at the health fair at the mall with ur bp n bone density screenings designed to get the masses in n get em drugged up.

[Krankenstein]

Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.

If he is at Target, why would he have to be the one to stop and say hello?  Wouldn't you have to be the one who would do that being that he is already there?  I am confused. 

[Mr Nobody]

Chiropractors are good people.

[Big Chiro Flex]

Cool.
I'll look for you at the local target with your mock up of the lumbar spine!
Be sure to stop and say hello.

Actually, that's NOT a lumbar spine since there is a superior costal facet present.

Hahahhahahahahhahahaha you're failing badly at this brother.

Let's start with baby steps: can you post a femur? Its a very large bone. Give it a shot!  

[ether]

Actually, that's NOT a lumbar spine since there is a superior costal facet present.

Hahahhahahahahhahahaha you're failing badly at this brother.

Let's start with baby steps: can you post a femur? Its a very large bone. Give it a shot!  

Damn you know your vertebral anatomy, i'll give you that!

---

Out of curiosity, while you are telling your "patients" that their "western doctors" are all quacks and that a keto diet can easily accomplish what a liver transplant would.....what do you tell them right before you are about to crack their necks?


Objective To identify adverse effects of spinal manipulation.

Design Systematic review of papers published since 2001.

Setting Six electronic databases.

Main outcome measures Reports of adverse effects published between January 2001 and June 2006. There were no restrictions according to language of publication or research design of the reports.

Results The searches identified 32 case reports, four case series, two prospective series, three case-control studies and three surveys. In case reports or case series, more than 200 patients were suspected to have been seriously harmed. The most common serious adverse effects were due to vertebral artery dissections. The two prospective reports suggested that relatively mild adverse effects occur in 30% to 61% of all patients. The case-control studies suggested a causal relationship between spinal manipulation and the adverse effect. The survey data indicated that even serious adverse effects are rarely reported in the medical literature.

Conclusions Spinal manipulation, particularly when performed on the upper spine, is frequently associated with mild to moderate adverse effects. It can also result in serious complications such as vertebral artery dissection followed by stroke. Currently, the incidence of such events is not known. In the interest of patient safety we should reconsider our policy towards the routine use of spinal manipulation.
J R Soc Med. 2007 July; 100(7): 330–338.

[Big Chiro Flex]

Damn you know your vertebral anatomy, i'll give you that!

---

Out of curiosity, while you are telling your "patients" that their "western doctors" are all quacks and that a keto diet can easily accomplish what a liver transplant would.....what do you tell them right before you are about to

Here's the thing: I'm so confident and secure with my profession's role in healthcare that I dont feel obligated to crusade against my fellow colleagues. I have the utmost respect for all doctors. I will never bash allopathic practitioners simply for their title, whether I disagree with some of their methods or not.

I could also pull up pub med systematic reviews countering your review, as well as about a thousand that show some of the wonderful iatrogenic deaths caused by your profession. But I won't...it would be a waste of time.

Your ability to go on the defensive so quickly and take things so personally lead me to believe you aren't very confident in what you do?