The real deal on BB judging ,contest promoters and supplement sponsor contracts

[NarcissisticDeity]

exactly. It is SO obvious who the winner is here.

And if a contest was judged on three poses maybe you would have something to work with.

[SF1900]

Not how it works , Ramy can beat Jay in a couple of poses and still lose. You have to know how contests are judged before you can just scream unfair. Pictures don't mean jack compared to reality either.

ND, I disagree. That is like putting Goodrum next to Ramy and saying "you cant tell from the pictures who the clear winner is."  

This is one of those rare times where its a blowout. Ramy is clearly destroying jay. Ive looked at all the mandatories and ramy is destroying Jay. I just dont have my pics saved on my harddrive like you to post.   and for some reason its giving me an error when I try to post certain pics.

[NarcissisticDeity]

ND, I disagree. That is like putting Goodrum next to Ramy and saying "you cant tell from the pictures who the clear winner is."  

This is one of those rare times where its a blowout. Ramy is clearly destroying jay. Ive looked at all the mandatories and ramy is destroying Jay. I just dont have my pics saved on my harddrive like you to post.   and for some reason its giving me an error when I try to post certain pics.

I agree in some poses Ramy is clearly beating Jay but again , not how it works. And the front lat spread Jay isn't even hitting the shot yet not very accurate. Not that it would matter because I think Ramy looks better in that pose anyway. But again , pictures are a poor substitute for video and actually being there.

[SF1900]

It finally posted. Jay losing again.

[SF1900]

Dude, now youre arguing just for the sake of arguing, trying to get a rise out of me. 4 poses, all in which Jay is clearly losing.

Clearly Jay losing another pose.

[Howard]

That's a good read Howard, but what I'm missing here is the concept of conflicts of interest. Too often I see coaches/trainers, sponsors, gym owners, etc as judges. In fact, I can't remember a show where this wasn't the case.

The "conflict of interest" started to creep in during my last years judging.
I was the last judge ( I knew of) that had a career completely outside of "the fitness industry".
Now, the same people that run gyms, train contestants and sell supplements, are judging contestants in shows.

At the pro level things look even more insular without any independent judges now.
This kind of close knit situation can create "group think".
Unless  guy shows up looking horrible, they might assume Phil is always better then Kai or Jay is always better then Rammi, etc.

I suspect that most pro events are lot more insular due the unique nature of hardcore pro BB.
Smaller NPC shows may be more objective simply because most judges won't personally know most of the contestants they judge?

[DroppingPlates]

Same thoughts/feeling here, Howard, and what pisses me off the most is that those 'judges' aren't hiding it, so it seems 'normal'. As a result there are tons of robbed (or coddled) competitors every year. It remains a subjective sport, but fuck, what if >90% of the crowd disagrees with Branch' 1th placings?

[Howard]

Same thoughts/feeling here, Howard, and what pisses me off the most is that those 'judges' aren't hiding it, so it seems 'normal'. As a result there are tons of robbed (or coddled) competitors every year. It remains a subjective sport, but fuck, what if >90% of the crowd disagrees with Branch' 1th placings?

Without a clearly defined standard NOBODY really knows why a guy wins or places higher in pro shows.
It's a haphazard crap shoot

[Dave D]

Not how it works , Ramy can beat Jay in a couple of poses and still lose. You have to know how contests are judged before you can just scream unfair. Pictures don't mean jack compared to reality either.

If pictures don't reveal true condition, size and shape why even bother having them taken and published?  There is definitely instances where pictures don't do justice but to say there's no carryover is foolish. 

[Vince B]

Imagine being Ramy and having to place low like that. Wtf is going on in the IFBB?

Who picks the judges and on what criteria?

[SF1900]

Without a clearly defined standard NOBODY really knows why a guy wins or places higher in pro shows.
It's a haphazard crap shoot

Youre clearly wrong in the case of Ramy and Jay. Its clear that Jay is getting destroyed here. You do not need to be there in person to see that.

I understand since youre a judge youre going to take the side of the IFBB, but youre clearly wrong.

[jude2]

You have never judged a show where there was serious prize money.  End of thread.

[Nirvana]

Don't bother with ND on these subjects.

ND Has all the Lego sets, action figures, video games, and coffee mugs from the Nasser on the Way trilogy.

[SF1900]

Don't bother with ND on these subjects.

ND Has all the Lego sets, action figures, video games, and coffee mugs from the Nasser on the Way trilogy.

And wont admit when hes clearly wrong.

[NarcissisticDeity]

And wont admit when hes clearly wrong.

Says the guy who doesn't even know how contests are judged asking how one person can lose to another 

[NarcissisticDeity]

Don't bother with ND on these subjects.

ND Has all the Lego sets, action figures, video games, and coffee mugs from the Nasser on the Way trilogy.

Don't bother with me on this subject because you'll get corrected 

[AmonRa]

I was a judge for many years on both the NPC and the AAU before that. Yup, I judged the actual Mr America when it was around.
The real "truth" about BB judging and contests is a lot more mundane then most would believe.
Based on my experience and observations here is my take on how it all works:

1. The real judging "secret" isn't any elaborate judging conspiracy to fix contests. It's the exact opposite. The process is lot less detailed then some want to believe and the judges do the best they can.

  At any NPC contest, you have a sheet with the entrant numbers listed in numerical order for each class and division. Above that are the placements (1,2,3 ...) on the horizontal.

a) At ANY time during the judging you can place them , by putting an X for the place you wish them to be. There are no "points" for winning a pose or certain bodyparts, etc. The judges placements ( 1st, 2nd , 3rd...) ARE the only  points and low score wins.

b) The overall winner for every division is picked during the night show finals. The class winner and  all other placements are determined during the prejudging. The posing routines during the night show are not scored or even watched that closely by the judges.
The overall division winner is picked from the class winners and compared briefly during the night show. Each judge is given a small pc. of paper to write down who wins and hands it down to the head judge who counts up the votes from each judge. The final pose down is rarely , is ever scored ,as most judges have already turned in their pick by then . The overall pose down gives the head judge time to tally the votes and gets the crowd hyped, that's all it is.

c) Most of the actual judging is done within the first few minutes of appearing on stage. The comparisons help when it's close between places.

d) Being BIG,  ripped, lean and darkly tanned is the first thing a judge notices when you walk on stage.

e) At most regional , state or local NPC shows, the biggest weakness is not being in ripped condition or dark enough under the lights.
You compete in your WEIGHT class, so size (usually)  isn't the biggest problem. Being too fat and lacking cuts is!

2. The bikini division has intentionally vague standards. It's really all about sex appeal and getting a lot more girls to enter contests.

3. Figure is designed for a fit, lean girl who has lean legs with some upper body V taper and good arm/delt muscle tone.
A good figure girl must have lean thighs and no visible  fat on the hammys with tight glutes.

4. MPD  ( wearing board shorts) was developed to increase the number of paid entrants in NPC contests. They don't care about classic physiques or a natural look, etc. AGAIN< the real purpose of this division was to get guys who worked out but weren't juiced up freaks to enter a contest and PAY THE ENTRY FEES and npc dues.

5. Most local , state and regional contest promoters want to make $$ but do it mostly for the love of the sport.
The national and pro level is more about profit and numbers then the love of BB.

6. The supplement industry needs a place to market their crap and the bigger shows need sponsors.
(a) Most of the fitness models make : under $100 and may get a room for the show weekend paid by the vendor , for working the booth.
(b) Many supplement contracts pay with a monthly product credit. ONLY the biggest name pros get a salary for being "sponsored".

7. I never judged at the pro level , but suspect it's pretty similar to what I did. Most promoters don't care who wins and leave that to the judges.
What can happen is some guy or girl will compete and be talked about by those in/round the sport. The judges might take a better look at them but still NOT pick them to win if they look like shit. Every judge has some bias or thing they look for when picking the winner. Now, with all the extra divisions , most judges are too damn fatigued to judge all the bodybuilders with enough detail. That's the real problem.

9. Nobody judging or running the contest , knows or cares about most people who enter the event. Sure, they love the sport but in the end they want to make $$$. NOBODY is going to risk that on some lame conspiracy to deny you 3rd place in the Lt wt novice LOL. YOU are NOT that important .  

[erics]

There are no "points" for winning a pose or certain bodyparts, etc. The judges placements ( 1st, 2nd , 3rd...) ARE the only  points and low score wins.

I always wondered how people could be so stupid when they keep saying so and so should have points taken off for weak calves or whatever. Where would the judges take points off from? There is nothing on the scorecard for such a thing to occur.

Being BIG,  ripped, lean and darkly tanned is the first thing a judge notices when you walk on stage.

I would have thought that if they were a 'proper' judge they would notice balance and proportion first. Any fool can notice the obvious first.

[Howard]

Youre clearly wrong in the case of Ramy and Jay. Its clear that Jay is getting destroyed here. You do not need to be there in person to see that.

I understand since youre a judge youre going to take the side of the IFBB, but youre clearly wrong.

1. I never was an IFBB pro judge and quit judging in the NPC 2 yrs ago when MPD got big.

2. Watching the comparisons live and close to the stage is different then pics.

The real issue is the complete lack of clear , transparent standards to judge contests by.
There are no enforced rules on what drugs or substances a BB can use when they compete.
A girl in the bikini or figure can have a boob job, butt implants, thigh lippo with hair extensions and compete/win a show .

My point is that the IFBB and NPC have several pages of rules and judging standards.
Very few are enforced or adhered to.

It's like a blind man saying the ball is in or out in tennis based on where he "hears" it bounce.

[SF1900]

Says the guy who doesn't even know how contests are judged asking how one person can lose to another 

Says the guy who thinks he knows how the contests are judged and is too stupid to see the who the clear winner is between Jay and Ramy.

[Howard]

Says the guy who thinks he knows how the contests are judged and is too stupid to see the who the clear winner is between Jay and Ramy.

For starters I agree that Rammy looks better using the accepted norms of judging a modern pro BB.
Now, what exactly are the IFBB judging standards and how are they applied in that Olympia ?

Believe it or not, judging now, is more about using "accepted and understood " standards then the written , official standards.
It's more  case of group think and know what's the current look vs any real objective judging.

Back in the 1960's Twiggy was the hot looking girl. She was stick thin with a short, boyish pixie cut and pale white.
Today, fuller figure , long haired ethnic babes are often the hot ones ( Kim K , Beyonnce or JLO ).

Remember from 1977-79, Frank Zane was the Mr Olympia standard at a ripped 5'9" and 190-200 lbs max.
With 5 years a man 50 lbs heavier was the ideal named Lee Haney.

Sadly, the best  physique is as much what's in style  as judging sexy woman.