Author Topic: Liberal Violence and Fascism  (Read 166939 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #900 on: October 20, 2023, 03:57:42 PM »
$5K is an even bigger laugh than $200K. Trump got off easy... this time.

As usual, missing the point.

Primemuscle

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #901 on: October 20, 2023, 04:16:51 PM »
As usual, missing the point.

Missing what point? That I don't think $200K is a big deal or that I think $5K is even less of a deal. Maybe it is that I agree with the judge's actions except that they were weak and therefore have little or no effect on Trump violating gag orders.

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #902 on: October 20, 2023, 04:19:18 PM »
Missing what point? That I don't think $200K is a big deal or that I think $5K is even less of a deal. Maybe it is that I agree with the judge's actions except that they were weak and therefore have little or no effect on Trump violating gag orders.

The point is the judge's unconstitutional gag order on Trump, making his courtroom look like North Korea.  It's a free speech issue. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #903 on: October 20, 2023, 04:56:24 PM »
The point is the judge's unconstitutional gag order on Trump, making his courtroom look like North Korea.  It's a free speech issue.

I disagree. 'The government isn't prohibited from punishing someone for making intentional “true threats” of physical violence. Nor is defamation protected by the First Amendment, even though it often comes in the form of literal—that is, spoken—speech.'

'The categories of unprotected speech include obscenity, child pornography, defamatory speech, false advertising, true threats, and fighting words. Deciding what is and is not protected speech is reserved to courts of law. The First Amendment only prevents government restrictions on speech.'

But if Trump says it is a violation of free speech right as stated in the Constitution, there are some folks who will agree with him and even parrot his comments regardless of its invalidity.

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #904 on: October 20, 2023, 06:06:37 PM »
I disagree. 'The government isn't prohibited from punishing someone for making intentional “true threats” of physical violence. Nor is defamation protected by the First Amendment, even though it often comes in the form of literal—that is, spoken—speech.'

'The categories of unprotected speech include obscenity, child pornography, defamatory speech, false advertising, true threats, and fighting words. Deciding what is and is not protected speech is reserved to courts of law. The First Amendment only prevents government restrictions on speech.'

But if Trump says it is a violation of free speech right as stated in the Constitution, there are some folks who will agree with him and even parrot his comments regardless of its invalidity.

You can disagree, but you're wrong.

Good commentary.

Opinion: A federal judge's gag order against Trump may be satisfying. But it isn't constitutional
Opinion by Erwin Chemerinsky
 
Although I often wish that Donald Trump would shut up, he has a constitutional right not to. A federal judge went too far in restricting his free expression Monday when she imposed a gag order on the former president.

U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan, who is presiding over the Washington prosecution of Trump for his role in the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection, ordered him to refrain from rhetoric targeting prosecutors and court personnel as well as inflammatory statements about likely witnesses.

Chutkan issued the order in response to a motion from special counsel Jack Smith. Trump has said on social media that Smith is “deranged,” that the judge is “a radical Obama hack” and that the court system is “rigged.” He has also attacked potential witnesses such as former Vice President Mike Pence.

“This is not about whether I like the language Mr. Trump uses,” Chutkan said in announcing her decision from the bench. “This is about language that presents a danger to the administration of justice." She added that Trump's presidential candidacy “does not give him carte blanche” to threaten public servants. The judge said that “1st Amendment protections yield to the administration of justice and to the protection of witnesses.”

I certainly understand Chutkan’s desire to limit such speech, and this is obviously a unique case with no similar precedents. But basic 1st Amendment principles cast serious doubt on the judge’s order.

The Supreme Court has long held that court orders prohibiting speech constitute “prior restraint” and are allowed only in extraordinary and compelling circumstances. In New York Times Co. vs. United States (1971), for example, the justices held that the courts could not constitutionally enjoin newspapers from publishing the Pentagon Papers, a history of America’s involvement in the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court held that there is a strong presumption against orders preventing speech.

Even more to the point, in Nebraska Press Assn. vs. Stuart (1976), the justices held that the courts can almost never keep the press from reporting on criminal cases, even when the goal is to protect a defendant’s right to a fair trial.

Although the Supreme Court hasn’t considered gag orders on parties to a case and their lawyers, the same strong presumption should apply against such prior restraints. What is particularly troubling about Chutkan’s order is that it seems primarily concerned with protecting prosecutors and court personnel from Trump’s vitriol. The law is clear that speech can’t be restricted to prevent government officials from being criticized or even vilified.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the 1st Amendment protects a right to criticize government officials, even harshly. In New York Times Co. vs. Sullivan (1964), the court unanimously declared that the amendment reflects a “profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials.”

There is no reason to believe, moreover, that Trump’s criticism of Smith, his staff or court personnel will prevent a fair trial. It is impossible to imagine that Trump’s attacks will change how the prosecutors behave. And given all that Trump has said and all that has been said about the events of Jan. 6, it is inconceivable that more speech will do much more to prejudice prospective jurors.

Whether Chutkan’s order is constitutional insofar as it keeps Trump from speaking about witnesses is a harder question. Trump has already appeared to threaten potential witnesses. The day after his August arraignment, for example, Trump posted on social media: “If you go after me, I'm coming after you.”

But it is important to note that the witnesses Trump has attacked are former high-level officials such as Pence and Atty. Gen. William Barr. (Chutkan ruled that Trump can talk about Pence as a rival for the Republican presidential nomination but not as a potential witness in the case.) There is little reason to believe that Pence or Barr would be intimidated by Trump and strong grounds for protecting criticism of what they did as public officials, even by Trump. Also, Chutkan could have issued a narrower order limited to speech about witnesses but didn’t.

Ultimately, the judge imposed a gag order on Trump because his speech is often unpleasant and offensive. But that is simply not a basis for restricting speech under the 1st Amendment. We may loathe what Trump says, but we must defend his right to say it.

Erwin Chemerinsky is a contributing writer to Opinion and the dean of the UC Berkeley School of Law. His latest book is “Worse Than Nothing: The Dangerous Fallacy of Originalism.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/opinion-a-federal-judges-gag-order-against-trump-may-be-satisfying-but-it-isnt-constitutional/ar-AA1infyZ

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #905 on: October 23, 2023, 11:08:43 AM »
Sidney Powell’s Plea Proves Fulton County Prosecutor Went Nuclear To Get Trump
BY: MARGOT CLEVELAND
OCTOBER 20, 2023
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fthefederalist.com%2F2023%2F10%2F20%2Fsidney-powells-plea-proves-fulton-county-prosecutor-went-nuclear-to-get-trump%2F

Primemuscle

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #906 on: October 23, 2023, 01:40:30 PM »
You can disagree, but you're wrong.

And I do disagree, Erwin Chemerinsky’s opinion does not make me wrong. I will let Trump's lawyers take this to Supreme court and they rule in his favor before admitting I was wrong.

Aside from the two paragraphs shown below this article is Erwin Chemerinsky’s opinion and nothing more. Arguably Trump’s comments pose a very real threat to the folks he is defaming and therefore constitute ‘extraordinary and compelling circumstances.’

In the second Supreme Court refence, Trumps comments go far beyond ‘harsh’ criticism of government officials. Do Trump’s indictments and trials constitute a debate on public issues? Furthermore, whether these are vehement, caustic, and unpleasantly sharp attacks or do Trump’s vitriol go beyond the scope of what is permissible under the law is open to interpretation.

Erwin Chemerinsky is known for his studies of constitutional law and federal civil procedure. His is the opinion of a legal scholar not the ruling a Supreme Court judge.

The Supreme Court has long held that court orders prohibiting speech constitute “prior restraint” and are allowed only in extraordinary and compelling circumstances.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the 1st Amendment protects a right to criticize government officials, even harshly. In New York Times Co. vs. Sullivan (1964), the court unanimously declared that the amendment reflects a “profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials.”


deadz

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #907 on: October 23, 2023, 02:56:41 PM »
It will be great once Mr. Trump is back. Coming soon!
T

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #908 on: October 23, 2023, 03:29:00 PM »
And I do disagree, Erwin Chemerinsky’s opinion does not make me wrong. I will let Trump's lawyers take this to Supreme court and they rule in his favor before admitting I was wrong.

Aside from the two paragraphs shown below this article is Erwin Chemerinsky’s opinion and nothing more. Arguably Trump’s comments pose a very real threat to the folks he is defaming and therefore constitute ‘extraordinary and compelling circumstances.’

In the second Supreme Court refence, Trumps comments go far beyond ‘harsh’ criticism of government officials. Do Trump’s indictments and trials constitute a debate on public issues? Furthermore, whether these are vehement, caustic, and unpleasantly sharp attacks or do Trump’s vitriol go beyond the scope of what is permissible under the law is open to interpretation.

Erwin Chemerinsky is known for his studies of constitutional law and federal civil procedure. His is the opinion of a legal scholar not the ruling a Supreme Court judge.

The Supreme Court has long held that court orders prohibiting speech constitute “prior restraint” and are allowed only in extraordinary and compelling circumstances.

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the 1st Amendment protects a right to criticize government officials, even harshly. In New York Times Co. vs. Sullivan (1964), the court unanimously declared that the amendment reflects a “profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials.”


Aside from the fact this is totally unconstitutional, Biden trying to silence his political opponent is just flat out wrong.  This banana republic stuff should never happen in America.

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #909 on: October 26, 2023, 10:27:22 AM »
Jewish students told to hide as pro-Palestinian protesters banged on doors of locked library
By Louis Keene
October 25, 2023
https://forward.com/fast-forward/566967/cooper-union-library-jewish-students-hide-protest/

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #910 on: October 26, 2023, 03:11:14 PM »
ACLU backs Trump in fight against DC judge's gag order
Special counsel Jack Smith's legal team has argued to reinstate a partial gag order on former President Donald Trump
By Chris Pandolfo Fox News
Published October 26, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aclu-backs-trump-fight-against-dc-judges-gag-order

Moontrane

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #911 on: October 26, 2023, 04:55:49 PM »
ACLU backs Trump in fight against DC judge's gag order
Special counsel Jack Smith's legal team has argued to reinstate a partial gag order on former President Donald Trump
By Chris Pandolfo Fox News
Published October 26, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aclu-backs-trump-fight-against-dc-judges-gag-order

 :D


jude2

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #912 on: October 26, 2023, 08:03:48 PM »
ACLU backs Trump in fight against DC judge's gag order
Special counsel Jack Smith's legal team has argued to reinstate a partial gag order on former President Donald Trump
By Chris Pandolfo Fox News
Published October 26, 2023
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/aclu-backs-trump-fight-against-dc-judges-gag-order
It is about time they fight for something right

Coach is Back!

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #913 on: October 26, 2023, 08:12:33 PM »
'Squad' Dems under fire for refusing to vote to condemn Hamas terror: 'Complete disgrace'

https://www.foxnews.com/media/squad-dems-fire-refusing-vote-condemn-hamas-terror

deadz

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #914 on: October 27, 2023, 02:59:00 PM »
'Squad' Dems under fire for refusing to vote to condemn Hamas terror: 'Complete disgrace'

https://www.foxnews.com/media/squad-dems-fire-refusing-vote-condemn-hamas-terror
Trash!
T

Dos Equis

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Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #916 on: November 03, 2023, 02:35:28 PM »
Trump hit with new gag order in New York civil fraud trial over court clerk dispute
by Kaelan Deese, Supreme Court Reporter
November 03, 2023
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/courts/trump-judge-new-gag-new-york-civil-fraud

deadz

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #917 on: November 03, 2023, 03:08:28 PM »
Trump hit with new gag order in New York civil fraud trial over court clerk dispute
by Kaelan Deese, Supreme Court Reporter
November 03, 2023
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/courts/trump-judge-new-gag-new-york-civil-fraud
Trump laughs at all the peasants attempting  to attack him. ALL ALPHA!
T

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #918 on: November 03, 2023, 08:49:05 PM »
Trump laughs at all the peasants attempting  to attack him. ALL ALPHA!

I don't think there is another man in America who could withstand what they have thrown at and done to him since 2015.  It's pretty remarkable. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #919 on: November 03, 2023, 08:50:59 PM »
More evidence of Biden attempting to put his chief political opponent in prison for life.  North Korea and Russia would be proud.

BREAKING: Trump lawyer in seized docs case reveals 'extensive' collaboration between Biden White House, DOJ, National Archives, intelligence community before indictment
"That wasn’t just done in a vacuum. They didn’t just, you know, pick 32 documents out of a hat and say, 'we will go with these.'"
Hannah Nightingale
Washington DC
Nov 3, 2023
https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-trump-lawyer-in-seized-docs-case-reveals-extensive-collaboration-between-biden-white-house-doj-national-archives-intelligence-community-before-indictment#google_vignette

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #920 on: November 03, 2023, 09:58:38 PM »
Angry Arthur: NY Judge Gags Trump Lawyers from Discussing ‘Confidential Communications’ of Activist Court Clerk
NICK GILBERTSON   3 Nov 2023
https://www.breitbart.com/2024-election/2023/11/03/angry-arthur-ny-judge-gags-trump-lawyers-from-discussing-confidential-communications-of-activist-court-clerk/

Primemuscle

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #921 on: November 03, 2023, 11:59:41 PM »
I don't think there is another man in America who could withstand what they have thrown at and done to him since 2015.  It's pretty remarkable.

He is getting what he deserves. Karma.

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #922 on: November 04, 2023, 12:12:07 AM »
He is getting what he deserves. Karma.

So he deserved to be falsely accused of being a Russian agent using knowingly false information paid for by Hillary Clinton?  That is precisely what someone with TDS would say.  And it's unAmerican.

Primemuscle

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #923 on: November 04, 2023, 12:14:06 AM »
So he deserved to be falsely accused of being a Russian agent using knowingly false information paid for by Hillary Clinton?  That is precisely what someone with TDS would say.  And it's unAmerican.

Just so you know due to my TDS I am not convinced Trump wasn't a Russian tool.

Dos Equis

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Re: Liberal Violence and Fascism
« Reply #924 on: November 04, 2023, 12:23:56 AM »
Just so you know due to my TDS I am not convinced Trump wasn't a Russian tool.

Of course.  lol