Bruce Lee the greatest fighter that ever lived?

[Nathan]

Innovator, yes.  Ahead of his time, yes.  First MMA advocate, yes.  Greatest fighter, no.  I am the BIGGEST Lee Jun Fan fan (pun intended), a former WC instructor, and an assistant instructor of JKDC, that being said, any good lightweight fighter of today would beat the snot out of the "Little Dragon."  Norifumi Yamamoto would demolish Bruce.  He is much like a 1967 Camaro Z28, good for his day, but doesn't compare to a 2002 Z28.  Happy Belated Birthday, Bruce. 

Exactly right!

[realkarateblackbelt]

lol, yes, i believe the karate kids got owned by everyone. even the street brawlers were owning them.

main problems with karate against a good all round fighter are:

1. not used to getting hit hard in the head and tend to go to pieces when they do.

2. way too tight, don't use angles and sit way too long on a strike.

3. arm punch

4. too kick happy and, again, sit too long on the kick ie one foot in the air = taken down real quick.

Karate teaches just the opposite of all those things.
The karate punch is not an arm punch AT ALL. Full contact karate requires many matches before blackbelt is awarded. And holding the foot in the air is wrong.

In mixed standup competition Kyokushin fighters tend to dominate pure kickboxers (see Andy Hug and Lebanner).

Who are all these karate fighters that are being dominated?

Name some names?

Andy Hug - K-1 champion
Lebanner - top rank K-1
Bas Rutten - UFC champ, pancrase champ....
Gerard Gordeau - made it to finals before being defeated by Graci (UFC 1)

When you can do this, you will understand the value of years training, and the perfection of technique.

&mode=related&search=

[Nathan]

The bat was sawed u can tell by the way the break is saw a board or dowling  1/2 through and hit it it will beake the same way. none of those names use karate techiniqus in the ring anyways either sorry to burst ur bubble.

[realkarateblackbelt]

The bat was sawed u can tell by the way the break is saw a board or dowling  1/2 through and hit it it will beake the same way. none of those names use karate techiniqus in the ring anyways either sorry to burst ur bubble.

You're not bursting any bubble.

Andy Hug is a legend in Kyokushin and he uses KARATE in the ring. K-1 champ. His axe kick was famous. I doubt he would cheat like that.

Bas Rutten's strikes are textbook karate. He punches straight from the hip. It's a technique that takes a few years to master and be able to use effectively - but it's extremely powerful. Opposite of an arm punch. Bas himself credits his striking power to his Kyokushin Karate blackbelt.

ALL those guys use Karate in the ring. Bas, Hug, Lebanner, Gordeau. All have proven themselves. They are all black belts. Bas is 4th dan I believe. All dominate karate fighters.

&mode=related&search=

&mode=related&search=

[BEAST 8692]

"Just prior to his death, he was quoted as saying a man with 1 years boxing experience and some wrestling would beat 100% of the black belts out there.  (This didn't make him popular with the McDojo school owners at the time since he was the hottest thing out).  So there it is."

this might just be the most poignant point of the whole thread. if there is one thing i admire most about lee is that he was honest to himself which is probably the greatest trait a fighter or even a man can have.

he is exactly right because he knew that real fighting was a very difficult thing to learn because it's not just whether you can throw a perfect left hook or a right roundhouse kick in a controlled setting. can you do it under pressure? can you set it up with timing and distance whilst your equally skilled opponent is reading you like a book? can you do it after you've been cracked so hard on your liver or kidneys that you can't even feel your legs anymore? can you do it so as you don't get countered? will you be open if it doesn't land? i could spend the next 3 pages doing this and we're only talking about one strike. i haven't even approached combinations/defence/shooting/grappling/sprawling, etc, etc.

these are the things we have ZERO evidence about lee. i have asked for one person to tell me WHO lee has fought and i've received some bullshit about lee not wanting to bother with a light strike karate tournament. yes i understand that, but what was stopping him entering a bare knuckle or boxing match. there were plenty of sanctioned fights and underground fights around in his day. he didn't enter any of them.

why? because he knew he would get owned and exposed in front of everyone. his mythical status would have been destroyed and the contrived american legend would have crumbled right there. a bit like seeing prime davey crocket in the flesh getting the absolute shit kicked out of him by a baby bear.

now, if lee were still alive and you asked him this HONESTLY eye to eye, i believe that he would have admitted it and, seriously, how could anyone blame him? the guy made millions from the ignorance and naivety of the masses who at the end of the day wouldn't know/care about the first thing about REAL fighting and simply wish to be entertained. a myth/legend inspires stupidity wonder and creates a buzz of excitement and stories to tell.

people, the title of this thread is 'Re: Bruce Lee the greatest fighter that ever lived?'

note the 'greatest fighter' part and the ? mark.

that right there is the discussion point, not who is a great martial artist or who looked the best, had the most nut huggers or, for christ's sake, who could AVOID hurting someone the best.

there is absolutely ZERO proof that lee was even A great fighter, never mind 'greatest'. ANYONE who states that lee was the greatest fighter or one of, i KNOW, is talking straight from the rectum. 

[student]

If bruce Lee is the greatest , then jean claude van damme should at least be top five.  And batman totally kicks superman's ass.

[BEAST 8692]

If bruce Lee is the greatest , then jean claude van damme should at least be top five.  And batman totally kicks superman's ass.

hey, don't forget davey crocket.

[student]

hey, don't forget davey crocket.

davey crocket would have to at least be a three to one underdog against robocop.

[BEAST 8692]

davey crocket would have to at least be a three to one underdog against robocop.

not if he brings mr feeze with him.

[student]

yup.  end of thread?

[BEAST 8692]

yup.  end of thread?

yep, i think that pretty well does it.

case closed.

batman is the greatest fighter of all time

[americanbulldog]

Karate teaches just the opposite of all those things.
The karate punch is not an arm punch AT ALL. Full contact karate requires many matches before blackbelt is awarded. And holding the foot in the air is wrong.

In mixed standup competition Kyokushin fighters tend to dominate pure kickboxers (see Andy Hug and Lebanner).

Who are all these karate fighters that are being dominated?

Name some names?

Andy Hug - K-1 champion

Except most of these fighters will revert back to a strict boxing structure when fighting in K1 rules, or MMA style fights. 
Lebanner - top rank K-1
Bas Rutten - UFC champ, pancrase champ....
Gerard Gordeau - made it to finals before being defeated by Graci (UFC 1)

When you can do this, you will understand the value of years training, and the perfection of technique.

&mode=related&search=

Except that most of these fighters will revert back to a boxing structure when fighting in K1 or MMA style rules. 

[americanbulldog]

yep, i think that pretty well does it.

case closed.

batman is the greatest fighter of all time

No, the Punisher is. 

[Nathan]

Except that most of these fighters will revert back to a boxing structure when fighting in K1 or MMA style rules. 

That was my point I wasnt talking K-1, but fighting in genral no one uses K-1 rules in a street fight.

[efirkey]

Dominique Vandenberg or Benny "The Jet"

[gymrat75]

Bruce Lee was way more than an actor! Alot of the toughest guys around the world, used to climb over his fence to kick his ass or challenge him and would leave his property f***** up!! Lee is the Greatest!

[alexxx]

Bruce could single handedly defeat all the ufc champions blindfolded in at the same time!

[Scimowser]

cheeky bastard! stealing my Avatar! 

[Fury]

Karate teaches just the opposite of all those things.
The karate punch is not an arm punch AT ALL. Full contact karate requires many matches before blackbelt is awarded. And holding the foot in the air is wrong.

In mixed standup competition Kyokushin fighters tend to dominate pure kickboxers (see Andy Hug and Lebanner).

Who are all these karate fighters that are being dominated?

Name some names?

Andy Hug - K-1 champion
Lebanner - top rank K-1
Bas Rutten - UFC champ, pancrase champ....
Gerard Gordeau - made it to finals before being defeated by Graci (UFC 1)

When you can do this, you will understand the value of years training, and the perfection of technique.

&mode=related&search=

Andy Hug was amazing. It's a shame he had to die so young. Would've been interesting seeing what he could've done for another 6+ years.

[alexxx]

cheeky bastard! stealing my Avatar! 

She's mine!

[Scimowser]

someone you should watch is Sensei Elwyn Hall. He is a Shotokan expert, and one of a handful of men to beat the legendary Sensei Frank Brennan in Kumite. Hes unreal, his striking was hard, accurate and dominating to say the least! He may have been an excellent MMA fighter, certainly in K-1. I think someone made a post about him on here not long ago

Alexxx - good to see you have a great taste in women anyway! 

[onlyme]

James West was the baddest.  He could beat up a bunch of guys but always lost when he fought one on one.  I loved that show

[Scimowser]

well, i know it is mostly due to his immense size but Semmy Schildt has won the K-1 world title for the 2nd time - hes a Seidokaikan Karate practicioner. Now i dont really rate him as a top fighter but a 2* WGP champion should be treated with the respect he deserves

[realkarateblackbelt]

Bruce Lee probably could take most guys on the street with no problem. Whether he was really good compared to top standup fighters just in his weight class (I'm always talking standup here) was never proven. I can't name anyone of note Bruce Lee fought for real. I don't mean sparring. He never fought any well known karate fighters or boxers if any at all. That 'intercepting fist' technique would only be effective (in theory) if the practitioner is as fast as he is. I think Bruce Lee was incredibly talented, but he never proved his assumed ability. Why wouldn't he?
If he felt himself to be above showing off, he wouldn't be making movies. He's certainly not the quiet reserved martial artist.

I think Bruce deserves respect for promoting martial arts better than any other fighter. He certainly popularised it. At the time, martial arts were still a bit obscure to the average person. People thought of martial arts and the orient as something semi-mystical and I think that was part of the reason all this hype built around Bruce Lee. He was seen as possessing some kind of magic to the uninformed. I think the driving force behind Bruce Lee was his perception that asians are treated bad or depicted bad in western cinema. He was secretly resentful, and somewhat envious of western fighters. In otherwords, he had a chip on his shoulder.

Karate as a standup art is PROVEN effective - provided you take a full-contact art like Kyokushin. A blackbelt will receive numerous injuries in full contact karate - sometimes severe. They don't revert to a boxing style in the ring ever. It is not tought in Karate that you walk like a robot. Stances are merely the most powerful position from which you launch certain attacks. Stances are to practice the kick, punch, elbow, headbutt, knee etc. so that form is good, strong, and accurate. Sparring teaches movement.

 You don't step like that. That's a misconception. The actual ring movement is like this:

&mode=related&search=

Before blackbelt is obtained (after years of training) you must fight many full force matches. That's not true of every style, but it's true of Oyama karate and many other styles. Conditioning is never neglected.

Karate attacks include elbow strikes, knees strikes, headbutts, punches (straight, backfist, jab), throat strikes, kicks (front, axe, crescent, roundhouse, thigh kick, back kick, side kick), and in some styles judo throws.

[realkarateblackbelt]

Wikipedia:

In 1964, Lee was challenged by Wong Jack Man, a practitioner of Northern Shaolin. Lee claimed that, after arriving in San Francisco, his theories about martial arts and his teaching of "secret" Chinese martial arts to non-Asian students gave him enemies in the martial arts community. In contrast, Wong stated that he requested a bout with Lee as a result of Lee's open challenge during a demonstration at a Chinatown theater; Lee had claimed to be able to defeat any martial artist in San Francisco, according to Wong.[6] The two fought in December, 1964, at a kung fu school in Oakland, California. Lee and Wong provided significantly different accounts of the private bout[7], which was not filmed. Afterwards, Lee stated in an interview, without naming Wong as the loser, that he had defeated an unnamed challenger. In response, Wong wrote his description of the fight as well as an invitation to Lee for a public match, which was printed on the front page of Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco. Lee did not fight Wong again.