Male Dogs.....Bitches....which do you prefer?

[knny187]

May be an unfair question.  My first dog was female & I swear she was the best until this male Rottie came along.

I usually find Male Dogs more devoted to female owners & Bitches more devoted to male owners.

[Vet]

May be an unfair question.  My first dog was female & I swear she was the best until this male Rottie came along.

I usually find Male Dogs more devoted to female owners & Bitches more devoted to male owners.

Knny, I really think you need to change this poll to have 4 categories to be accurate:  Intact Male dog, Neutered Male dog, Intact female dog, and Spayed female dog.  To me, simply male or female doesn't quite cover things completely. 

[~flower~]

Knny, I really think you need to change this poll to have 4 categories to be accurate:  Intact Male dog, Neutered Male dog, Intact female dog, and Spayed female dog.  To me, simply male or female doesn't quite cover things completely. 

I had Emmett neutered at 2 years of age, noticed no difference, and Addie was done at 4 or so years and I haven't noticed any difference either.  Emmett went through 1 heat of Addie's before he was neutered and besides not wanting to eat and being a goofball I found it manageable.  I never had a problem with Addie and her being in heat, after Emmett was neutered she would go and annoy him sometimes, but other than that no problems.

 So I don't believe (and I have heard others with similar older speutered dogs)  speutering affects as much behavior or temperament as people think it does.    Accept for EARLY neutering which has been shown in studies to affect temperament and not in a good way. 

  hmm.... after my last sentence maybe their should be 4 or more categories, with the early neutering being pushed, and in some areas being made mandatory it could affect the dog and how you perceive the genders.

 Intact Male
 Intact Female
 Early neutered male
 Early spayed female
 Breed appropriate age neutered male
 Breed appropriate age spayed female


           

[knny187]

Holy crap   

I aint doing all that

[SinCitysmallGUY]

I love my boys.. 

[G.R.H.]

duh! y do u think they call them "bitches"?! B CUZ THEY R TEMPERAMENTAL!

[Vet]

I had Emmett neutered at 2 years of age, noticed no difference, and Addie was done at 4 or so years and I haven't noticed any difference either.  Emmett went through 1 heat of Addie's before he was neutered and besides not wanting to eat and being a goofball I found it manageable.  I never had a problem with Addie and her being in heat, after Emmett was neutered she would go and annoy him sometimes, but other than that no problems.

 So I don't believe (and I have heard others with similar older speutered dogs)  speutering affects as much behavior or temperament as people think it does.    Accept for EARLY neutering which has been shown in studies to affect temperament and not in a good way. 

  hmm.... after my last sentence maybe their should be 4 or more categories, with the early neutering being pushed, and in some areas being made mandatory it could affect the dog and how you perceive the genders.

 Intact Male
 Intact Female
 Early neutered male
 Early spayed female
 Breed appropriate age neutered male
 Breed appropriate age spayed female


           

I was thinking spay at approximately 5-6 months of age (before the first heat cycle) and neuter at 6-9 months of age....... there is too much evidence for the benefits of spaying a female dog prior to the first heat cycle and reduction in certian types of cancers to wait and spay after the first heat cycle.   Combine that with the mess and potential for unwanted puppies (all it takes is the kids leaving her unsupervised in the back yard for 10 minutes) I don't understand why anyone would want an intact female unless there are plans to breed her.  At the same time, there is no denying the problems with some female dogs spayed "early" with things like vulvar hypoplasia and in male cats with microphallus problems.   You can train an intact male to not hike a leg on everything, although I'll be the first to admit some males are easier than others to train. 

I've owned dogs spayed/neutered young, spayed/neutered medium, and spayed/neutered at adult.  I'm not a big fan of adult male castrations because of the post operative swelling, bruising, and discomfort.  Thats part of the reason I haven't neutered the Dogo yet.  The other is figuring out how to get his huge butt onto my operating table.  He's too long bodied to fit on the one table I've got at work and right now, I'm really a big fan of doing a "kneeling" castration and risking the bleeding.   

I also think there is a difference in behavior in a dog spayed/neutered prior to the completion of puberty and one that is kept intact its entire life.  Its a simple fact of life that horniness will override common sense on almost everything.     

[~flower~]

I think the "evidence" is inconclusive as to if altering is better health wise.  I believe partial spays and vasectomies are going to become more common because more people are natural rearing and realize that hormones are their for a reason and just because it is an animal doesn't mean removing them is best for the animal.

I went through 4 years of heats with Addie, she never was a problem, never tried to roam, was just as much as an indoor couch dog as usual.  Besides going over and "standing" for Emmett sometimes she was normal.   Considering what happened to her because of her spay, if I could go back she would still be intact because I had no reason to spay her.  There was no issues that I was dealing with. 

Emmett never felt the need to go and "find some bitches" while he was intact. Yes, he went off his food for 3 days and thought only about Addie the one heat she had while he was intact, but a responsible person can manage intact dogs.

Given the option of which gender is the lesser of two evils to alter (at a breed appropriate age of course) I would neuter over spaying.  Or actually I would consider a vasectomy for the male.  The term spaying is a cover-up because calling it what it really is, a full hysterectomy, just doesn't sound so appealing does it?  It is considered horrible for a woman to have an hysterectomy, yet we do it to our female pets like it is removing a wart.

[Vet]

I think the "evidence" is inconclusive as to if altering is better health wise.  I believe partial spays and vasectomies are going to become more common because more people are natural rearing and realize that hormones are their for a reason and just because it is an animal doesn't mean removing them is best for the animal.

I went through 4 years of heats with Addie, she never was a problem, never tried to roam, was just as much as an indoor couch dog as usual.  Besides going over and "standing" for Emmett sometimes she was normal.   Considering what happened to her because of her spay, if I could go back she would still be intact because I had no reason to spay her.  There was no issues that I was dealing with. 

Emmett never felt the need to go and "find some bitches" while he was intact. Yes, he went off his food for 3 days and thought only about Addie the one heat she had while he was intact, but a responsible person can manage intact dogs.

Given the option of which gender is the lesser of two evils to alter (at a breed appropriate age of course) I would neuter over spaying.  Or actually I would consider a vasectomy for the male.  The term spaying is a cover-up because calling it what it really is, a full hysterectomy, just doesn't sound so appealing does it?  It is considered horrible for a woman to have an hysterectomy, yet we do it to our female pets like it is removing a wart.

Flower, I want to address what you are saying, or what I think you are saying with the post above.  I personally am a supporter of spaying and neutering both dogs and cats.  There is no denying the benefits of spaying your dog unless you are living under a rock.  The hallmark study was done in 1969---almost 30 years ago, and statistically, the numbers have not changed:

Schneider et al. Factors influencing canine mammary tumor development and postsurgical survival. J Natl Canc Inst 43;1249-1261 1969

spay prior to 1st estrus risk of developing mammary tumors= .05%
spay after 1st estrus risk of developing mammary tumors= 8%
after the 2nd estrus risk of developing mammary tumors= 25%

More recent studies have shown that if you wait until after the 4th estrus, ~2.5-3 years of age, there is no difference between spayed and intact bitches and the development of mammary tumors—so you basically lose the protective effects of spaying after that age.  Mammary tumors can be severely aggressive in female dogs, with reports upwards of 75% having lung metastasis at the time of surgical removal.  Once they have metted to the lungs, its just a matter of time. My mother in laws basset hound just recently died from cancer.  She’d been spayed as a young adult (<5 years of age) after having two litters of puppies.  She had a pea sized mammary tumor removed 4 years ago.  The biopsies done of her lungs came back as epithelial origin, most likely consistent with mammary carcinoma metastasis.  The only primary tumor we know of was that pea sized one removed years ago.  To me, she was a very real world example of the statistics. 

There were also similar findings with queens, but I have to search for that article. 

From the standpoint of other problems with intact females: pyometra occurs in approximately 0.6% of female dogs with the first heat cycle but progresses with each successive heat cycle until there is at least 66% risk of severe uterine infection having occurred in the female dog by age 9 and virtually a 100% risk of having had a pyometra in some form through their life by the time a bitch is 15 years old.  Pyometras can be a life threatening infection, with surgical removal of the uterus and ovaries being the preferred treatment.  Any idiot can see the risk of spaying a dog with a severe uterine infection is dramatically worse than a healthy puppy with no underlying health problems

Pyometra is also the argument against “partial” spays that some people seem to be avocating now days.  When a dog is spayed, the uterus is removed from the point of the cervix through the fallopian tubes and the ovaries are removed.  With a “partial” spay, a portion of the uterus is removed, leaving some uterine tissue and the ovaries.  This works fine in humans because of differences in uterine structure, but in dogs and other animals (including rodents like chinchillas, which I published a case report on a while back) it’s a recipe for disaster.  The remaining uterine tissue will respond to circulating hormones with proliferation of the uterine lining as if the entire uterus was there.  This almost always leads to the development of a “uterine stump” pyometra, something which is completely ignored by the advocates for sterilization, but not spaying or neutering.  This stump pyometra is a life threatening infection.  The difference is with a complete uterus, the uterus acts as a natural ‘sac” for the infected tissue.  Often times with a stump pyometra, there is puss leaking directly into the abdominal cavity.  Stump pyometras are bad.

The final thing you need to consider is logistics of the surgery.  You keep saying age appropriate, and please don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing with you about the problems with “early” spaying and neutering but I am saying I wouldn’t like to wait until a large breed bitch has had a couple of heat cycles to spay her.  Every successive heat cycle, the uterus gets a bit larger and a bit more flaccid.  There are also larger blood vessels present from the first heat cycle onward.  From the standpoint of mechanics of surgery, a young dog that is otherwise healthy and has not had a heat cycle is a much simpler, much faster to perform surgery than a 5-6 year old bitch who’s had several heat cycles and worse yet, who’s had 2-3 litters of puppies.  The worst situation in my opinion (and I think a lot of canine and feline vets will agree with me) is a giant breed dog in the 5-7 year age range who’s had multiple litters and is in heat when the owners bring them into get spayed.  I hate those surgeries.   They are not typical 30-45 minute spays, they are major 2 hours surgeries.  And I do agree with you, a spay isn’t “just a spay”.  It’s the same basic approach as an abdominal exploratory surgery and should be treated the same in terms of preoperative preparation, intraoperative monitoring, and post operative care including analgesia. 

Male dogs are a bit different because there is a degree of controversy with the studies looking at incidence of prostate cancer in unneutered vs neutered males and there is the study saying that there is no difference between them (again, I can’t remember the exact reference, but if you need it, I can find them).  The thing is that you will eliminate the incidence of benign prostate hyperplasia with neutering, and there is an association of transitional cell carcinoma and osteosarcoma with intact males having a higher incidence of both types of cancer vs  neutered dogs.  TCC and Osteosarcoma are cancers that kill.  No dog lives a long time after being diagnosed with those cancers.  Prostate infections are also not fun.

The final thing I think that needs to be considered is behavior of the dog.  Partial spays and neuters or keeping a dog intact can border on cruelty in certain situations.  Think about it, a neutered dog has no sex drive.  They don’t think about it.  Intact male dogs many times think about 3-4 things, sex, food, sex, and maybe playing---just like human males.  So let’s say you keep an intact male, but don’t allow him to breed?  Is that fair to the dog?  I’ll admit, its borderline animal rightish, but it’s something to chew on.   

[~flower~]

I don't think there is no definitive answer except that large and giant breeds spayed early does increase the risks of health problems.  Osteosarcoma already a giant breed problem increases with early altering, these mandatory altering laws are a health risk to our companions.

  I have posted this before, but I think it gives a balanced view of altering from both sides:

 http://naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf



On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations


For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the
relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (
0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate petowners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits
associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary.

The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog. Across-the-board recommendations for all pet dogs do not appear to be
supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature.


I think these last paragraphs are very important, the information given to the public is typically skewed and one sided, especially on the recommended age to alter.  Which is why mandatory spay and neutering sucks!!!  People don't realize that their pets health are being put at risks and they may end up dumping a pet because of health problems that could of been avoided if the dog was allowed to mature more before being altered. How many female dogs may be dumped or euthanized because they are leaking all over the house?  Or a dog gets cancer or some other health problem and the owner doesn't want to deal with or spend the money. 

 You can read the 12 pages and sources and decide for yourself whether you think they are valid and legitimate.


   --this should be in the thread about mandatory s/n I am c &Ping part of it to that thread

[americanbulldog]

Intact Male Molossers are a handfull.  I prefer fixed bitches. 

[MisterMagoo]

Depends on the breed. For example, I love the look of a male bully, so personality aside I just prefer them. By and large though, I think fixed bitches are a lot easier to deal with.