Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: Azn Muscle on September 17, 2007, 10:08:04 PM
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I don't know if this is the right section, but do you think that it is possible to be well-developed but have "weak" lifts? I know that there is generally a correlation between strength and size, but do you think as far as muscular development is concerned, that you could build a pretty good physique without lifting extremely heavy?
For example, I see a ton of guys in the gym that bench way more than I do, but I feel I am far more developed in the chest than they are. I want to say that I have achieved better development than these individuals because of technique and probably a more focused mind-muscle connection (squeezing every lift), but in theory because they lift more than I do they should be bigger than I am? Just curious to your thoughts.
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yes.
theyre not bigger because they dont hit chest muscles as much. shoulders and triceps probably takes most of the load. it's good if thats what they want to do - move a lot of weight in the bench. it's bad if they want the biggest chest muscles possible.
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yes, i know exactly what youre saying. particularly on bench. i am a ve3ry well developed 19 year old natural bodybuilder. i often see guys much more out of shape than me benching the same weight or more weight than i can. its extremely frustrating and i too am in search of answers to this. i see the same thing in other specific upper body lifts, but most prominent in the barbell bench press. its a mystery of bodybuilding to me and really makes me rethink the connection between strength and size.
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why is that a mystery? if they have better technique, or are better suited for benching, or either have stronger shoulders/triceps or put them to work more etc why wouldnt they be able to bench more?
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For example, I see a ton of guys in the gym that bench way more than I do, but I feel I am far more developed in the chest than they are. I want to say that I have achieved better development than these individuals because of technique and probably a more focused mind-muscle connection (squeezing every lift), but in theory because they lift more than I do they should be bigger than I am? Just curious to your thoughts.
I think you're forgetting how big of a role simple genetics play
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Some people train for hypertrophy and some people train for strength. The problem is, most recreational lifters train for strength when, in actuality, their real goal is hypertrophy, they just like to lift as heavy as possible ALL the time.
I think it comes down do having clearly defined goals. Do you want to be stronger or have bigger muscles, they go hand-in-hand sometimes but to get there takes two different roads.
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two words, no trolling: flex wheeler
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two words, no trolling: flex wheeler
flex wheeler was far from weak. often lazy and uninspired yes..but far from weak.
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flex wheeler was far from weak. often lazy and uninspired yes..but far from weak.
weak for his muscular mass
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weak for his muscular mass
na, not weak for his muscle mass. i know it has been said he was that. but in reality he was strong when he wanted to lift heavy. (lazy and unspired ..and thus often lifted relatively light..but he was strong when he wanted too).
he wasnt ronnie coleman strong...but he could handle heavy weights in pressing and curling movements!
remember in the late 90s...he was full of oil..(insane amounts, shoulders and arms) which made him look bigger than he was. also lied about his competition weight on a few occasions.
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Absolutely. Can be due to a bunch of factors, but there are definitely people that do not fit the mold and are either small but strong, or big and weak.
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good question. I too have never been a 'big' bencher. I always considered myself just a little below average in terms of everyone else who lifts bench. Years ago when i was just starting to put one plate up, i see others messing with two plates. Then when i got to two plates, i see others go onto three plates ect. I still ended getting stronger thru consistent attendance and my brother as a training partner, but now i train chest so i can really feel it. I do Milos shit on machines and hammer strength. Smith is probably the most hardcore lifting I do.I dont know, i can honestly say that training that way hasnt made me stronger but i feel it made me bigger. ;)
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good question. I too have never been a 'big' bencher. I always considered myself just a little below average in terms of everyone else who lifts bench. Years ago when i was just starting to put one plate up, i see others messing with two plates. Then when i got to two plates, i see others go onto three plates ect. I still ended getting stronger thru consistent attendance and my brother as a training partner, but now i train chest so i can really feel it. I do Milos shit on machines and hammer strength. Smith is probably the most hardcore lifting I do.I dont know, i can honestly say that training that way hasnt made me stronger but i feel it made me bigger. ;)
haha monster excuse to lift like a pussy.
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haha monster excuse to lift like a pussy.
well....... yeah it is , so what if I don't want to be injured ? hahah sorry im not hardcore enuf bro..... i need to step my game up ::)
Im not lifting to be the strongest man on earth
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haha monster excuse to lift like a pussy.
the guy shares his experience and you call him a pussy
my chest is probably my best bodypart..and I can honestly say that I am an average lifter..I try to go no less than 8 reps, if I happen to do less than that, then I turn it into a drop set
I see fuckers lift a weight for 1 or 2 reps and act like world beaters.
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Actually been thinking about something to this effect the last couple of days.I wouldn't necessarily say that the well developed person who lifts what some would say is light weight is weak but maybe has a much better mind to muscle connection.If so, why for example force your body doing barbell cheat curls for your biceps w/say 175+ lbs & possibly produce a torn muscle when you know you can develop 18" arms using 100 lbs or less?Of course proper diet should be equated to the situation.
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1. leverage (mostly genetic)
2. the ratio of slow to fast twitch muscle fibres (mostly genetic)
3. ability to simultaneously fire many muscle fibres in a short period of time (genetic but can be improved by training by a relatively high degree)
4. and of course muscle size and amount of fibres (genetic but trainable to a relatively high degree).
The combination of the above determines strength, with people having all of the above being the strongest for their size in a particular lift, ie genetic freaks.
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Simply Train for strength and you get stronger.
But its not necessary to be unusually strong to have above average muscle development.
Look at Cutler. He could move a lot more plate for his size.
Its not in his interest. (at least w/ the current judging standards)
There are prolly female PLers w/ better lb:lb strength to BW ratios then Jay.
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Good timing. I was just thinking on this matter. I can only bench 225 4-5 times on a good day, and my training bud can get 300 for 3, yet my chest is far more developted, frustrates the hell out of us both :P
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yes. i am pretty weak for my size.
alot of guys in my gym outlift me on certain movements. but there are only 3, maybe 4 guys with my size of muscular development. (except my chest....my chest is not a bodybuilders chest. YET! its improving...)
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For normal people, you HAVE to get stronger to get bigger, there's no other way around it unless you're messing around with drugs. So I would say that it is impossible to have a well-developed physique and be "weak," genetic factors not considered.
It doesnt go about the other way though, it is very possible to be very strong without having a relatively well-developed physique.
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For normal people, you HAVE to get stronger to get bigger, there's no other way around it unless you're messing around with drugs. So I would say that it is impossible to have a well-developed physique and be "weak," genetic factors not considered.
It doesnt go about the other way though, it is very possible to be very strong without having a relatively well-developed physique.
YOu CAN Gain a lot of strength w/ out gain much size and also the opposite.
Plenty small PLers strong, plenty big BBers relatively WEAK!
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I have to chime in here because I think one of the most important points has been missed.
In order to become 'bigger' i.e. more developed, you need to be constantly increasing your weight. You will NEVER become bigger by lifting the same weight or only increasing your poundage slightly. Sure you'll get a great little pump, you'll probably lose some weight and get a little more toned.... but you will not get bigger.
Genetics will determine if we start at 45lb or 100lb (ronnie could have walked into a gym having never trained a day in his life and I'll bet you'd be blown away by the stack he's start with). But if you started at 45 you better be moving up on a regular basis even if just by a few pounds every week and the same goes for the 100lb lifter although you may be moving up a little faster.
Most importantly, however tough it is, don't compare your progress to anyone else. You keep lifting and increasing stack size and you'll get bigger. When stat stops, hit the juice :)
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I have to chime in here because I think one of the most important points has been missed.
In order to become 'bigger' i.e. more developed, you need to be constantly increasing your weight. You will NEVER become bigger by lifting the same weight or only increasing your poundage slightly. Sure you'll get a great little pump, you'll probably lose some weight and get a little more toned.... but you will not get bigger.
Genetics will determine if we start at 45lb or 100lb (ronnie could have walked into a gym having never trained a day in his life and I'll bet you'd be blown away by the stack he's start with). But if you started at 45 you better be moving up on a regular basis even if just by a few pounds every week and the same goes for the 100lb lifter although you may be moving up a little faster.
Most importantly, however tough it is, don't compare your progress to anyone else. You keep lifting and increasing stack size and you'll get bigger. When stat stops, hit the juice :)
exactly, your weights compared to someone else doesnt matter (in bodybuilding). only your own weight progression.
and lifting heavier weight doesnt mean you have to go for a max every workout as some people seem to believe. ::)
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exactly, your weights compared to someone else doesnt matter (in bodybuilding). only your own weight progression.
and lifting heavier weight doesnt mean you have to go for a max every workout as some people seem to believe. ::)
Going for a max in the same movement each time is detrimental.
Going for a new max in a different movment, (often assistance exersizes) is possible.
Thats Louis Simons method at West side. Cant argure w/ the results. They dont even keep track of 500lb benchers at his gym anymore.
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Going for a max in the same movement each time is detrimental.
Going for a new max in a different movment, (often assistance exersizes) is possible.
Thats Louis Simons method at West side. Cant argure w/ the results. They dont even keep track of 500lb benchers at his gym anymore.
i wasnt talking about powerlifting programs, so i dont know why you quoted my post.
there is not much to debate:
im not gonna post in this thread more...just say: as a bodybuilder if you want to be considerably bigger you have to get stronger (in one way or another).
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i completely disagree that strength equates to size.
when i would train for strength in bench, yes i got stronger, but not much bigger.....
only when i trained w less weight and for higher reps is when i got bigger.
i think more reps get you bigger.....not more weight.
so, this explains the phenomenon......not always the guys with the biggest chest are the strongest.
my advice is to train w BOTH high reps and low reps.....strength and size.