Author Topic: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg  (Read 4190 times)

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U.S. Decline, Sloth Look a Lot Like End of Rome: Mark Fisher
March 29, 2010, 10:00 PM EDT
More From Businessweek

Business Exchange Commentary by Mark Fisher


________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _________________

March 30 (Bloomberg) -- Historians cite the late second century as the turning point of the Roman Empire, when the once- proud, feared society began its descent into infamy.

As the ruling class was undermined by civil wars and attacks by outsiders, the Romans’ respect for law and social institutions began to erode. In the end, a combination of political and economic mistakes led to the empire’s downfall.

The U.S. today is a mirror image of the Roman Empire as it tipped into chaos. Whether we blame our bloated government, a greedy elite or a lethargic population, the similarities between the two foreshadow a gruesome future.

The Roman economy grew fat from the plunder of conquered territories and the added productivity offered by new lands. The waning of expansionism didn’t bode well for the empire.

While the U.S. ascended quite differently, it also used its position as a superpower to fuel economic expansion. Because the country had the strongest military and economy in the post-World War II era, the U.S. dollar became the de facto global reserve currency, ensuring endless competitive advantages -- which have vanished in the last decade.

Americans have become less productive while relying more on social safety-net programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security -- and now expanded health-care insurance. Worse, like the ancient Romans, a sense of entitlement has replaced the drive and motivation we once championed. With easy access to abundant government handouts, it’s no wonder so many jobless people have stopped looking for work.

Bread and Circuses

In the fifth century, the Roman political elite began searching for ways to distract its population from the hopelessness at hand. Bread and circuses postponed the ultimate fall. The tactic stopped working when people realized their bread tasted stale and sensed the true scope of the impending disaster.

The U.S. government’s version of bread offerings proliferated throughout the fiscal crisis, in which collapse was averted only by a massive financial bailout and an endless supply of paper money, along with the rest of the seemingly endless sustenance being shoved down America’s throat.

Meanwhile, the administration hasn’t yet tackled the most pressing issue: job creation. Given the current state of the labor market, American workers can’t possibly provide enough tax revenue to support the government’s swelling debt.

Even more unsettling is the government’s inability to fix the financial crisis. After a stream of stimulus programs and bailouts, the Federal Reserve continues to print enormous quantities of dollars and buy the nation’s debt.

California Like Greece

Many state governments are in even worse shape. With California’s 10-year debt currently yielding about 4.5 percent (municipal debt typically yields less than 10-year Treasuries, which now yield about 3.9 percent), the state poses the same sort of danger to the U.S. that Greece does to the European Union. If the federal government decides to bail out California, what happens when Michigan and New York start demanding the same treatment?

The burden of underfunded pension liabilities will cause states’ budget deficits to further balloon. Since defined state benefit plans assume an unrealistic 8 percent rate of return -- zero percent, at best, is more likely -- we can only imagine the catastrophe to come once states have to make good on their obligations.

As our society becomes increasingly immobile and sits on the couch doing nothing but surfing the Internet, using iPhones and watching “Jersey Shore,” the hopelessness of the situation becomes clear.

Fear Mounts

Unless the government creates a massive jobs program, cuts spending and taxes, and gains control of the national budget and the balance of payments crises, we should fear for our future. Unless our fellow Americans relearn the value of hard work, no government plan stands a chance.

Once the world realizes that the U.S. is the new Rome, the traditional tenets governing asset correlations will no longer hold, and we can expect a breakdown in traditional stock-bond portfolio theories.

Since paper assets are ultimately shoved down to zero, expect hard assets to benefit -- especially gold, energy and grains -- along with commodity-related equities.

The name of the game going forward -- let’s say the next five years -- will be buying ahead of whatever China and other developing nations are trying to accumulate and diversifying away from the U.S.

The China Factor

Consider the trading relationship between the U.S. and China. When the U.S. funnels its unfinished products to China, the Asian nation is able to send back manufactured goods -- thanks to its abundant supply of cheap labor -- in return for dollars. While the American people are busy tinkering with their newly manufactured playthings, the Chinese continue to use their new wealth to buy energy and commodity assets.

Thus, China and the other developing countries that are amassing dollars, euros and pounds basically play a game of global hot potato, trying to pass the potato -- worthless paper currencies -- to others in exchange for energy, water and valuable food assets.

As China continues to thrust its dollars at all things commodity-related, it’s hard not to laugh when hearing President Barack Obama speak about trying to identify “environmentally sound” opportunities in energy.

Meltdown Ahead

It’s only a matter of time before the mechanism that has allowed the government to sustain its trade deficit for longer than it should have -- similar to the Asian dollar peg of the 1990s -- causes a simultaneous decline in the U.S. currency, asset prices and the economy.

Once people begin to realize that their paper currencies, stocks and bonds are all garbage, we can expect a meltdown.

Although it may be too early to predict an impending collapse in paper assets and an immediate need to acquire hard assets, it’s clear that we’ve reached a turning point. The ship has begun to sink. As I await a global re-set of asset values and prices, I will continue to monitor the swelling federal and state tax revenue levels, the rising animosity between Main Street and Wall Street and the progress made by commodity-hungry nations as they continue to eat our lunch.

While I continue to hope for the best, it’s far wiser to prepare for the worst.

(Mark Fisher, author “The Logical Trader,” is the founder of MBF Asset Management LLC. The opinions expressed are his own.)

Click on “Send Comment” in the sidebar display to send a letter to the editor.

--Editors: Steven Gittelson, James Greiff

To contact the writer of this column: Mark Fisher in New York at mark@mbfcapital.com

To contact the editor responsible for this column: James Greiff at jgreiff@bloomberg.net

________________________ ________________________ _____

Spot on.  Just go to any large public gathering and you will see we are FUBAR.  

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2010, 11:09:03 AM »
This analogy has been made many times...

Are you hoping for a Christian takeover as well Loco?
I hate the State.

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2010, 11:14:34 AM »
This analogy has been made many times...

Are you hoping for a Christian takeover as well Loco?

No, but I have read Gibbons' account and see many many similarities.  IMHO, the founders of this nation had it right and we need to go towards that, not away from it. 

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2010, 11:18:56 AM »
This analogy has been made many times...

Are you hoping for a Christian takeover as well Loco?

No.  I oppose theocracies.

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2010, 11:32:27 AM »
Rome was one of the greatest empires that ever was lasting 100's of years long.  America has had less than a hundred years of being the world's top dog.  Not even a fair comparison can be made.  So please you only show complete arrogance trying to make that comparison. 
Abandon every hope...

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2010, 11:35:48 AM »
Rome was one of the greatest empires that ever was lasting 100's of years long.  America has had less than a hundred years of being the world's top dog.  Not even a fair comparison can be made.  So please you only show complete arrogance trying to make that comparison. 

What does age have anything to do with it? 

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2010, 11:36:17 AM »
U.S. Decline, Sloth Look a Lot Like End of Rome: Mark Fisher
March 29, 2010, 10:00 PM EDT
More From Businessweek

Business Exchange Commentary by Mark Fisher


________________________ ________________________ ________________________ _________________

March 30 (Bloomberg) -- Historians cite the late second century as the turning point of the Roman Empire, when the once- proud, feared society began its descent into infamy.

As the ruling class was undermined by civil wars and attacks by outsiders, the Romans’ respect for law and social institutions began to erode. In the end, a combination of political and economic mistakes led to the empire’s downfall.

The U.S. today is a mirror image of the Roman Empire as it tipped into chaos. Whether we blame our bloated government, a greedy elite or a lethargic population, the similarities between the two foreshadow a gruesome future.

The Roman economy grew fat from the plunder of conquered territories and the added productivity offered by new lands. The waning of expansionism didn’t bode well for the empire.

While the U.S. ascended quite differently, it also used its position as a superpower to fuel economic expansion. Because the country had the strongest military and economy in the post-World War II era, the U.S. dollar became the de facto global reserve currency, ensuring endless competitive advantages -- which have vanished in the last decade.

Americans have become less productive while relying more on social safety-net programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security -- and now expanded health-care insurance. Worse, like the ancient Romans, a sense of entitlement has replaced the drive and motivation we once championed. With easy access to abundant government handouts, it’s no wonder so many jobless people have stopped looking for work.

Bread and Circuses

In the fifth century, the Roman political elite began searching for ways to distract its population from the hopelessness at hand. Bread and circuses postponed the ultimate fall. The tactic stopped working when people realized their bread tasted stale and sensed the true scope of the impending disaster.

The U.S. government’s version of bread offerings proliferated throughout the fiscal crisis, in which collapse was averted only by a massive financial bailout and an endless supply of paper money, along with the rest of the seemingly endless sustenance being shoved down America’s throat.

Meanwhile, the administration hasn’t yet tackled the most pressing issue: job creation. Given the current state of the labor market, American workers can’t possibly provide enough tax revenue to support the government’s swelling debt.

Even more unsettling is the government’s inability to fix the financial crisis. After a stream of stimulus programs and bailouts, the Federal Reserve continues to print enormous quantities of dollars and buy the nation’s debt.

California Like Greece

Many state governments are in even worse shape. With California’s 10-year debt currently yielding about 4.5 percent (municipal debt typically yields less than 10-year Treasuries, which now yield about 3.9 percent), the state poses the same sort of danger to the U.S. that Greece does to the European Union. If the federal government decides to bail out California, what happens when Michigan and New York start demanding the same treatment?

The burden of underfunded pension liabilities will cause states’ budget deficits to further balloon. Since defined state benefit plans assume an unrealistic 8 percent rate of return -- zero percent, at best, is more likely -- we can only imagine the catastrophe to come once states have to make good on their obligations.

As our society becomes increasingly immobile and sits on the couch doing nothing but surfing the Internet, using iPhones and watching “Jersey Shore,” the hopelessness of the situation becomes clear.

Fear Mounts

Unless the government creates a massive jobs program, cuts spending and taxes, and gains control of the national budget and the balance of payments crises, we should fear for our future. Unless our fellow Americans relearn the value of hard work, no government plan stands a chance.

Once the world realizes that the U.S. is the new Rome, the traditional tenets governing asset correlations will no longer hold, and we can expect a breakdown in traditional stock-bond portfolio theories.

Since paper assets are ultimately shoved down to zero, expect hard assets to benefit -- especially gold, energy and grains -- along with commodity-related equities.

The name of the game going forward -- let’s say the next five years -- will be buying ahead of whatever China and other developing nations are trying to accumulate and diversifying away from the U.S.

The China Factor

Consider the trading relationship between the U.S. and China. When the U.S. funnels its unfinished products to China, the Asian nation is able to send back manufactured goods -- thanks to its abundant supply of cheap labor -- in return for dollars. While the American people are busy tinkering with their newly manufactured playthings, the Chinese continue to use their new wealth to buy energy and commodity assets.

Thus, China and the other developing countries that are amassing dollars, euros and pounds basically play a game of global hot potato, trying to pass the potato -- worthless paper currencies -- to others in exchange for energy, water and valuable food assets.

As China continues to thrust its dollars at all things commodity-related, it’s hard not to laugh when hearing President Barack Obama speak about trying to identify “environmentally sound” opportunities in energy.

Meltdown Ahead

It’s only a matter of time before the mechanism that has allowed the government to sustain its trade deficit for longer than it should have -- similar to the Asian dollar peg of the 1990s -- causes a simultaneous decline in the U.S. currency, asset prices and the economy.

Once people begin to realize that their paper currencies, stocks and bonds are all garbage, we can expect a meltdown.

Although it may be too early to predict an impending collapse in paper assets and an immediate need to acquire hard assets, it’s clear that we’ve reached a turning point. The ship has begun to sink. As I await a global re-set of asset values and prices, I will continue to monitor the swelling federal and state tax revenue levels, the rising animosity between Main Street and Wall Street and the progress made by commodity-hungry nations as they continue to eat our lunch.

While I continue to hope for the best, it’s far wiser to prepare for the worst.

(Mark Fisher, author “The Logical Trader,” is the founder of MBF Asset Management LLC. The opinions expressed are his own.)

Click on “Send Comment” in the sidebar display to send a letter to the editor.

--Editors: Steven Gittelson, James Greiff

To contact the writer of this column: Mark Fisher in New York at mark@mbfcapital.com

To contact the editor responsible for this column: James Greiff at jgreiff@bloomberg.net

________________________ ________________________ _____

Spot on.  Just go to any large public gathering and you will see we are FUBAR.  

I don't know 3...according to the posters on this board they claim america is NOT following the same DEATH GAME PLAN as Rome. And you know...If the Get Biggers say it isn't so, then it must not be so... ::) ::) ::)
C

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2010, 11:38:45 AM »
What does age have anything to do with it? 

You beat me to answering this post in the same manner. KC is a typical GB poster who has to be hand walked through understanidng everything.

KC...the issue is policy, lifestyle, corrupt government, financial corruption, disregard for the masses desires...these are some of the issues that brought Rome down which is also bringing america down... or should I say has brought america down,.
C

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2010, 11:42:46 AM »
Americans have become less productive while relying more on social safety-net programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security -- and now expanded health-care insurance. Worse, like the ancient Romans, a sense of entitlement has replaced the drive and motivation we once championed. With easy access to abundant government handouts, it’s no wonder so many jobless people have stopped looking for work.


get real man.. :o

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2010, 11:46:24 AM »
Americans have become less productive while relying more on social safety-net programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security -- and now expanded health-care insurance. Worse, like the ancient Romans, a sense of entitlement has replaced the drive and motivation we once championed. With easy access to abundant government handouts, it’s no wonder so many jobless people have stopped looking for work.


get real man.. :o


Oh really? 

www.usdebtclock.org


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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2010, 11:54:19 AM »
What does age have anything to do with it? 

Everything.  You are trying to show a false comparison between an empire and a country.  Besides your continued posts of the us debt clock prove only that republicans are not good for this country.  Regan started the deficits, Clinton got us back on track and then Bush went and fu*ked us over, now Obama is employing keynesian economics which helped America and the world in the latter stages of the depression and WW2. 

Abandon every hope...

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2010, 12:04:06 PM »
Everything.  You are trying to show a false comparison between an empire and a country.  Besides your continued posts of the us debt clock prove only that republicans are not good for this country.  Regan started the deficits, Clinton got us back on track and then Bush went and fu*ked us over, now Obama is employing keynesian economics which helped America and the world in the latter stages of the depression and WW2. 




I needed a great laugh.  Thanks. 

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2010, 12:06:44 PM »

I needed a great laugh.  Thanks. 

sometimes you need to laugh at just how stupid you've been.  i look forward to a more positive and smarter 333 in future posts.  i'm glad you see the light 333.  keynesian economics works and has done wonders for America post WW2 and Depression era. 
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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2010, 12:10:10 PM »
sometimes you need to laugh at just how stupid you've been.  i look forward to a more positive and smarter 333 in future posts.  i'm glad you see the light 333.  keynesian economics works and has done wonders for America post WW2 and Depression era. 

Keynes himself said his theories dont work in the modern age.  Additionally, Keynes never advocated raising taxes in a recession.  Keynes was also a NWO one world govt supporter just so you know. 

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2010, 12:17:18 PM »
Keynes himself said his theories dont work in the modern age.  Additionally, Keynes never advocated raising taxes in a recession.  Keynes was also a NWO one world govt supporter just so you know. 

That is why we have new keynesian economics.  Better suited to our time.  I have no doubt that if we can get this green bill passed, these incentives to produce green tech will become impossible to ignore.  That will allow us to become a manufacturing nation again.  One that invests not only in the future but in the present work force.  Will it hurt a little at first?  No doubt.  Anything new takes time to adjust to that's just the way it is, but in Obama's second term and beyond i hope we will see a the rise of America the maker again, lets just hope these companies don't ship any jobs overseas and Americans start realizing that yes buying something made in China is cheaper, but it takes a position away from an American.  Just like buying from wal-mart not only lowers the standard of living of the suppliers (because without offering walmart the cheapest prices they will be cut away and lose a major partner) but it kills off any local competition.   
Abandon every hope...

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2010, 12:22:03 PM »
Keynes himself said his theories dont work in the modern age.  Additionally, Keynes never advocated raising taxes in a recession.  Keynes was also a NWO one world govt supporter just so you know. 

BTW how can Keynes say anything about the modern age he died in 1946?  That's a pretty weird statement to make 333 when his economic policies dominated and helped economies grow post war until the 70's.
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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2010, 12:35:58 PM »
That is why we have new keynesian economics.  Better suited to our time.  I have no doubt that if we can get this green bill passed, these incentives to produce green tech will become impossible to ignore.  That will allow us to become a manufacturing nation again.  One that invests not only in the future but in the present work force.  Will it hurt a little at first?  No doubt.  Anything new takes time to adjust to that's just the way it is, but in Obama's second term and beyond i hope we will see a the rise of America the maker again, lets just hope these companies don't ship any jobs overseas and Americans start realizing that yes buying something made in China is cheaper, but it takes a position away from an American.  Just like buying from wal-mart not only lowers the standard of living of the suppliers (because without offering walmart the cheapest prices they will be cut away and lose a major partner) but it kills off any local competition.  

We just spent almost a TRILLION dollars on Keynsian style stimulus and what did it do?  NOTHING!


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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2010, 12:40:16 PM »
We just spent almost a TRILLION dollars on Keynsian style stimulus and what did it do?  NOTHING!

 ::)  The estimates by the government should have been this is a 3-4 year deal.  There was never going to be a one year fix or even two year.  Heck the economy won't be on a positive track until the latter part of this decade, that's just how deep we were in.  But it would have been so much worse without it.  The government estimates have been wrong on all fronts and i never believed them anyway, they were far to optimistic but that's politics.  you can't sell a public on a 5 year plan, they want answers now so you do what you can to appease them.   
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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 12:41:06 PM »
::)  The estimates by the government should have been this is a 3-4 year deal.  There was never going to be a one year fix or even two year.  Heck the economy won't be on a positive track until the latter part of this decade, that's just how deep we were in.  But it would have been so much worse without it.  The government estimates have been wrong on all fronts and i never believed them anyway, they were far to optimistic but that's politics.  you can't sell a public on a 5 year plan, they want answers now so you do what you can to appease them.   

Sorry KC, thats utter nonsense and not what was sold to the public in defense of this insane spending. 

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2010, 12:46:41 PM »
Sorry KC, thats utter nonsense and not what was sold to the public in defense of this insane spending. 

I just explained why it was sold the way it was.  People weren't going to deal with a lost decade too well so they sold them that it would turn it around tomorrow, truth is it won't.  But it will turn it around a damn site faster than if they had done nothing at all. 
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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2010, 12:52:13 PM »
I just explained why it was sold the way it was.  People weren't going to deal with a lost decade too well so they sold them that it would turn it around tomorrow, truth is it won't.  But it will turn it around a damn site faster than if they had done nothing at all. 

Its not going to turn in 5 years either with what they are doing.  FDR, according to UCLA economits made the depression last many years long than it should have as a result of his failed economic policies. 

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2010, 12:56:24 PM »
No.  I oppose theocracies.

Me too.

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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2010, 01:03:19 PM »
Its not going to turn in 5 years either with what they are doing.  FDR, according to UCLA economits made the depression last many years long than it should have as a result of his failed economic policies. 

Bullsh*t he did.  I guarantee you will find more economists that disagree with what you just said than agree with it.  Retrospect is a wonderful thing i guess you could say i could look back at ww2 and end it quicker now because i know what worked and what didn't.  Fact is it worked, FDR got us out of it.  Your blindness to the truth and to democrats in particular is rather sad 333.  If only FDR was around to enact his 2nd bill of rights we would never have needed a health care debate. 
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Re: U.S. looking eerily similar to Rome in the 2nd Century - Bloomberg
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2010, 01:04:46 PM »
Bullsh*t he did.  I guarantee you will find more economists that disagree with what you just said than agree with it.  Retrospect is a wonderful thing i guess you could say i could look back at ww2 and end it quicker now because i know what worked and what didn't.  Fact is it worked, FDR got us out of it.  Your blindness to the truth and to democrats in particular is rather sad 333.  If only FDR was around to enact his 2nd bill of rights we would never have needed a health care debate. 

Sorry KC, that is utter BS.  WW2 ended the depression, not anything FDR did.  FDR made it worse and last far longer than it otherwise would have if he simply let things run its course.