DNA pioneer's theory: Africans are less intelligent than Westerners

[Nordic Superman]

One of the world's most eminent scientists was embroiled in an extraordinary row last night after he claimed that black people were less intelligent than white people and the idea that "equal powers of reason" were shared across racial groups was a delusion.

Link: http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece

Thoughts?

Personally, why can't this be true? How long do we have to wait until we can openly discuss such matters with everyone up in arms about petty morality?

Can only the good attributes to race based genetic advantages (ie. how many white 100m sprinters do you see?) be discussed?

Not saying I believe people of African descent are less intelligent, I'd have to research this issue further to come to that conclusion.

What about the possibility that racial differences also leaders to intellectual capacity?

[gcb]

The may give fuel to the white supremacists but really we should let the chips fall where they will.

White/Black should get same level of education etc. and let society determine via proscribed methods (SATs, college) the individuals value.

[militarymuscle69]

if there wasn't some trught behind it they wouldn't have to lower placement scores for blacks....situation came up in the Air Force a few years back when the percentage of blacks that got promoted was lower than whites. They proposed seperate tests for seperate races. Obviously not across the board but I think in general it has xome truths to it

[Nordic Superman]

I think they do something like that with the police force in England.

I could be wrong.

[youandme]

earth to getbig earth to getbig. This is true many Harvard psychologists came to this conclusion back in the 60's and wrote books on it.

Some people's names you may recognize that have suggested such: Darwin, Piaget, Jung, Locke.....

The may give fuel to the white supremacists but really we should let the chips fall where they will.

White/Black should get same level of education etc. and let society determine via proscribed methods (SATs, college) the individuals value.

I think you failed to grasp the science in it, they have done such studies and those of latino, and african decent usually fall 25 standard deviations below the sample population, it is like the Ferry theory only it has not evolved it seems to have devolved and become stale, they were predicting through industrilization that blacks and latinos would pick up more knowledge and hindsight, but have yet to show this.

Some theories account for the affirmitive action, and welfare shoppers, some label it as a motivational token reinforcer where they ae learned helplessness. Take california for instance they got rid of affirmitive action, and blacks are doing very good latinos also.

Regardless of the cry babies on this site who scream racism, the group that receives the real racism and bigotry are the native americans.

[youandme]

im not sure but i think this watson guy was on craig venter's board. so im sure this research was used in the making of the first AI chromosome

[youandme]

if there wasn't some trught behind it they wouldn't have to lower placement scores for blacks....situation came up in the Air Force a few years back when the percentage of blacks that got promoted was lower than whites. They proposed seperate tests for seperate races. Obviously not across the board but I think in general it has xome truths to it

I think that really does need to happen, in terms of the military. Positive reinforcement. TV stations such as UPN, are also cutting back on showing black women in violent, and depressed states they want to see if a link exists in that kind of modeled behavior.
guess time will tell.

[JBGRAY]

One of the potential problems here is a variety of  possible abuses that can either lawfully or unlawfully be directed at a racial group that is factually on average to be of lower intelligence than another group, especially if the latter group happens to be the majority.  Simply look at the creation of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, which is one of many examples of a culturally, industrial, and militarily-superior peoples taking acute advantages over a weaker civilization.  Superior, in meaning of industrialization and material gain.  Perhaps the need to avoid past offenses is so great that the suppression of honest discussion on such a politically and socially charged subject is brutal and direct without offering logical arguments to discredit the subject altogether.  

Perhaps people's sensitivities are so high that they would not want to be potentially stereotyped into being something other than they're not even if data presented that would lump a person in such a group anyways(individual and very small group stereotypes are often wrong, but are often correctly applied to large groups- just ask businesses).  Proverbial Red Herrings are often thrown around when this subject matter arises, in which the dissenting side is usually assailed with unfounded terms such as racist, bigot, xenophobe, nativist, anti-semite, homophobe, etc...terms that in today's Western Society frighten people to such an extent that they often just give up the argument altogether and ultimately end up defending their name(saying things such as the now obligatory "I'm not a racist, but...." or "Well, I have many friends in the Hispanic community") or just walk away, even when that person is correct.

[JBGRAY]

In Western Society anyways, I think the quality of life for minorities can be raised drastically if things that were pandered to them such as affirmative action, race-based quotas, scholarships, and hundreds of others were eliminated.  There are no outright racist laws on the books anymore.  Giving people incentive to achieve is the solution.  Fierce competition in the free market has given us an array of amazing products and upgrades to our quality of life...the same can be applied in human relations. 

A big reason as to why our schools fail is because the academic pace of the classroom is reserved for the slowest, dumbest kid in class...leaving the brighter and often many of the average students bored and not given enough incentive to make improvements.  The last-place kid should be given that incentive as a "kick in the ass" type of thing in order to catch up to his peers.  Failure in all aspects is something that people need to avoid at all costs, not strive to attain in order to obtain some sort of victimhood status.  Unfortunately, there can be severe monetary penalties to public schools that practice this.

Oh, and a little tidbit for y'all:  Roy Boehm, founder of the modern Navy SEALS, actually chose a person who had finished LAST in basic underwater demolitions class to be in one of the first SEAL teams because he perceived that person to have the most drive and will to succeed.

[youandme]

Oh, and a little tidbit for y'all:  Roy Boehm, founder of the modern Navy SEALS, actually chose a person who had finished LAST in basic underwater demolitions class to be in one of the first SEAL teams because he perceived that person to have the most drive and will to succeed.

Really? That is pretty cool! !

[240 is Back]

Big problem with science like this - they can only comfortably release whatever findings they have - based upon what society deems non-offensive.

it's a big can of worms.  You can comfortably release group statistics - height, weight, even penis size, right?  But to delve deeper into it, well, it incites groups who like to be offended.  Inside every group/population subset is a small yet vocal contingent (who the media loves to cover due to the emotional responses from viewers).

You can't release data like this with the PC society of today.  Despite however sound science might be behind it - a very small group will declare itself to be spokesmen for that whole group, and will boycott businesses/cost the scientists money, until they get their way.


Hypothetical.  Suppose scientists found that Eskimos have higher intelligence, bigger penises, better cheekbones, and better bench press stats,,, than white guys.  Would I be offended?  Nah.  I'd be interested in the stats, how they found them, if the science was sound, etc.  It's simple observation - nothing to disparage me.  But, there would be a small group of white guys who would act offended, and they'd be on FOX news tonight with OReilly, talking about this "racist" study which "destroys equality for whites".

Whiny bitches.  yet in our PC society - which we readily admit is 90% non-thinking  sheep- it works.  it gives people something to talk about over "Everyone loves raymond" repeats with their Taco bell dinner and daily mindless chatter, designed of course, as it removes some coverage from the war or the billions spent each week on it.

[Tre]

I've got my own opinions here, but I've never been to Africa (military trips don't count).

I can only speak on the intelligence of African-Americans or Blacks in this country.

One fact that many people overlook is this: just because Jim Crow laws were outlawed decades ago does not mean that their effects disappeared overnight. 

Even though Blacks enjoy more opportunities than ever before, it'll take at least another hundred years to undo the effects of more than two centuries of intense, race-based oppression. 

It's difficult for many Americans to admit this and many of us are eager to play the "Well, I have this Black friend who is very successful because he worked hard" card, but we cannot so quickly divorce ourselves from the reality of what was a very integral part of our not-so-distant past.

[I ETA PI]

It is discussed in academic circles.
There are many differences amongst races.  There are varying bone structures, muscle and tendon insertions, fulcrum points at joints, etc., etc. 

These things are generally not spoken about outside of academic circles.  Unfortunately, as a general rule, people are too ignorant, bigoted, and unintelligent to rationally discuss such issues.

[youandme]

but we cannot so quickly divorce ourselves from the reality of what was a very integral part of our not-so-distant past.

"Longer you hold on to something the more it drags you down."

[Dos Equis]

I've got my own opinions here, but I've never been to Africa (military trips don't count).

I can only speak on the intelligence of African-Americans or Blacks in this country.

One fact that many people overlook is this: just because Jim Crow laws were outlawed decades ago does not mean that their effects disappeared overnight. 

Even though Blacks enjoy more opportunities than ever before, it'll take at least another hundred years to undo the effects of more than two centuries of intense, race-based oppression. 

It's difficult for many Americans to admit this and many of us are eager to play the "Well, I have this Black friend who is very successful because he worked hard" card, but we cannot so quickly divorce ourselves from the reality of what was a very integral part of our not-so-distant past.

This is true.  Jim Crow didn't come off the books until the 1960s.  There were vestiges that lingered through the 1970s.  Not that long ago.  

Regarding this guy's comments:  absolutely absurd.  You cannot pick random people off the street and make judgments about their intellect based on the color of their skin.  People need to get over these so-called race-based analyses already.  What's the point?  

[youandme]

Not that long ago.  

Older than dirt

[Dos Equis]

Older than dirt

Or not.  Civil Rights Act of 1964 was 43 years ago.  In other words, anyone who is 50 or 60 lived during the days of legalized segregation.

Brown v. Board, eliminating "separate but equal" schools was in 1954, 53 years ago.  Took years for schools to desegregate.       

[militarymuscle69]

I think that really does need to happen, in terms of the military. Positive reinforcement. TV stations such as UPN, are also cutting back on showing black women in violent, and depressed states they want to see if a link exists in that kind of modeled behavior.
guess time will tell.

You think a black NCO should get an easier promotion test than me? Forget positive reinforcement, that would be promoting less qualified leaders

[Nordic Superman]

So, Tre and Beach, you believe every race is 100% equal in intelligence?

Do you believe they're 100% equal in regards to 100m sprinting ability?

[Dos Equis]

So, Tre and Beach, you believe every race is 100% equal in intelligence?

Do you believe they're 100% equal in regards to 100m sprinting ability?

 Loaded questions Nordic.    What do you mean by intelligence?  IQ?  There are a couple of books by Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence, and Working With Emotional Intelligence) that establish (to me anyway) that IQ does not = intelligence. 

I don't believe there is any correlation between a person's race and their intelligence, including emotional intelligence.  I think doing "studies" don't make a whole lot of sense, given the dilution of the races in this country. 

Are all 100 percent equal when it comes to the 100 meters?  Sure.  Are all races 100 percent equal when it comes to professional golf?  Hockey?     

[Parker]

So, Tre and Beach, you believe every race is 100% equal in intelligence?

Do you believe they're 100% equal in regards to 100m sprinting ability?

Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.   

Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling.  They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.

[Dos Equis]

Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.   

Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling.  They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.

Good points.  Just look at how P.E. has been disappearing from school curricula. 

[Nordic Superman]

Sprinting has virtually nothing to do with academic achievement. US culture doesn't promote being a whole person, unlike Greek culture, which extolled the virtue of being in shape in the mind and body. Physical beauty and athletic achievement SHOULD go hand in hand with academic achievement.   

Am Football players, Basketball players, and sprinters are only trained for what they do, thru-out their schooling.  They get passes on academic tests and classes, which only hurt them in the long-run.

Well my point was factual, it was to make people think about the issue. Obviously the participants of this thread have had their liberal sensibilities shattered. "Oh no EVERY race is 100% equal in EVERYTHING". It was nothing to do with intelligence at all, it was to point out that different races have variations in genetics which may benefit them in certain areas. Why can't intelligence be one of these areas?

Try not to get all pissy, I said I had to research this myself before coming to a conclusion.

But Parker, haven't we had a thread in the past in which we discovered most inventions are by the white man?

[Parker]

Well my point was factual, it was to make people think about the issue. Obviously the participants of this thread have had their liberal sensibilities shattered. "Oh no EVERY race is 100% equal in EVERYTHING". It was nothing to do with intelligence at all, it was to point out that different races have variations in genetics which may benefit them in certain areas. Why can't intelligence be one of these areas?

Try not to get all pissy, I said I had to research this myself before coming to a conclusion.

But Parker, haven't we had a thread in the past in which we discovered most inventions are by the white man?

We can't count most inventions in history and say, this was by a "white man, a black man, or a Asian man", that is impossible about as childish as "My Dad can beat Your dad".

Have you read the the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" or if you don't want to read it, find the program, it might be on Youtube, but it is a eye-opener.

[Parker]

Guns, Germs and Steel

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/show/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel