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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Butterbean on July 31, 2006, 02:08:30 PM
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OK.... Who would like to start? :)
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Why so called patriotic American Christians have taken to calling themselves zionists and siding with Zionist objectives is beyond me... Well not really... It's just hard for me to buy into that level of stupid.
From http://www.jewfaq.org
Moshiach: The Messiah
Level: Intermediate
I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the moshiach, and though he may tarry, still I await him every day.
- Principle 12 of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith
The Messianic Idea in Judaism
Belief in the eventual coming of the moshiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the moshiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (achareet ha-yameem), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "moshiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.
The Moshiach
The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5) He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.
When Will the Moshiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the moshiach will come:
if Israel repented a single day;
if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
in a generation that loses hope;
in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;
What Will the Moshiach Do?
Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people. (Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.
What About Jesus?
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kochba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see the Jews for Judaism website, especially the Knowledge Base under Resources. The Knowledge Base addresses more than 130 of the most common arguments that evangelists make to Jews.
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For anyone who has traveled through DIA and seen the wacko murals, take a second look next time and see how they match up with the Judaic prophecies on the messiah.
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19 views after how long? Nobody wants to know about this stuff??? :P
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OK.... Who would like to start? :)
Mel Gibson?
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We need goatboy to help us out here.
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19 views after how long? Nobody wants to know about this stuff??? :P
I need the Cliffs Notes for your posts. :)
Are orthodox Jews still waiting for the first coming of Jesus?
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I need the Cliffs Notes for your posts. :)
Are orthodox Jews still waiting for the first coming of Jesus?
I posted the goddang Cliff notes for the long post that you asked about. In this thread I highlighted the only thing that really matters. Three sentences... I think you can handle that.
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I posted the goddang Cliff notes for the long post that you asked about. In this thread I highlighted the only thing that really matters. Three sentences... I think you can handle that.
You only highlighted two sentences. Not trying to be picky or anything. :)
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You only highlighted two sentences. Not trying to be picky or anything. :)
What the hell are you talking about ;D
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What the hell are you talking about ;D
lol. ;D Nice edit. Only problem is now you've highlighted FIVE sentences. ;D
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So What's up guys... You Christian AMERICANS are all Kosher with a one world government? And at that time you'll give up Christ and recognize the one true god the Jewish God, one true religion the Jewish religion? You're all ok with that happening? I mean because that's the plan. We're not talking about just one website, I can find this same thing written today or post quotes from books written a century ago. All these goals are made possible by Christians. (http://www.imagedonkey.com/out.php?i=13113_withstupid.gif) They specificly site that none of this would be possible without you. Maybe you think none of this is real? If so you're dead wrong, there are a whole lot of people who have devoted their lives to making this a reality. Why doesn't anybody want to talk about this? Are you afraid of sounding racist? Talking about this is just that taboo??? Maybe you all know this very well already and do not wish to comment or just don't give a rats butt one way or the other? God will handle it and you have faith that it'll work out right? What???... What makes a Christian want or not care about these things. I would really like to know.
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lol. ;D Nice edit. Only problem is now you've highlighted FIVE sentences. ;D
Yes I was fucking around [as in joking, NOT SERIOUS, PLAYING AROUND], Get serious now ok...
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Why doesn't anybody want to talk about this? Are you afraid of sounding racist? Talking about this is just that taboo??? Maybe you all know this very well already and do not wish to comment or just don't give a rats butt one way or the other? God will handle it and you have faith that it'll work out right? What???... What makes a Christian want or not care about these things. I would really like to know.
I, Berserker....I give a rats butt. I want to learn more and talk about this. Thanks for the info! Give me some time to read it all and I'll comment and ask questions.
The Knowledge Base addresses more than 130 of the most common arguments that evangelists make to Jews.
Will you please give me a direct link to this? I can't find it.
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Are orthodox Jews still waiting for the first coming of Jesus?
Well, they're waiting for the first coming of the Mosiach... although the criteria for what that word constitutes is different from our concept of Jesus and his divine miracles. I think the orthodox believe that he will be a man, descended from King David. He will be a powerful ruler who will unite all governments (the world was much smaller back then) and promote peace among all people. A fierce leader, all evil would be vanquished, there will be no death or sickness, and a messianic age of prosperity and peace will reign. At this time all Jews would return to Isreal and the temple will be rebuilt. There are other signs but these are some of them. I think the conservative and reform Jews simply believe that the Mosiach idea is a metaphor or symbol and do not believe that someone is actually coming
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What exactly is judaism's view on heaven and hell? Does theire scripture even deal with the after-life? I've never been able to get a clear cut answer on this, even when I asked a jew about this (well, he isnt exactly a practicing jew but he's a jew bastard nonetheless). What he pretty much told me is that Jews dont really dwell on ther AFTER life, rather they choose to focus on the PRESENT life and leave whatever there is after the present life upto G-d.
I just had to say it. "G-d" ;) That gives rise to another question- why do jews prefer to write "G-d" instead of "God"? Thanks to whoever obliges to answer the question. :)
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Well, they're waiting for the first coming of the Mosiach... although the criteria for what that word constitutes is different from our concept of Jesus and his divine miracles. I think the orthodox believe that he will be a man, descended from King David. He will be a powerful ruler who will unite all governments (the world was much smaller back then) and promote peace among all people. A fierce leader, all evil would be vanquished, there will be no death or sickness, and a messianic age of prosperity and peace will reign. At this time all Jews would return to Isreal and the temple will be rebuilt. There are other signs but these are some of them. I think the conservative and reform Jews simply believe that the Mosiach idea is a metaphor or symbol and do not believe that someone is actually coming
Interesting. Thanks Deedee. Do they use some version of an Old Testament Bible? I think I've read or heard that they don't use the New Testament?
Sounds like those who believe the Mosaich is coming believe there will be heaven on earth, while those who believe in the Mosaich as a metaphor have no hope.
BTW, went to my first (and only) Bar Mitzvah a couple years ago. Very interesting. I was too chicken to wear the Yakima. Nice ceremony.
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I, Berserker....I give a rats butt. I want to learn more and talk about this. Thanks for the info! Give me some time to read it all and I'll comment and ask questions.
Will you please give me a direct link to this? I can't find it.
I guided the link but you can peruse the website for more info from here.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-concept.html
Also, it's a long read, but for anyone who is in the least bit interested in the subject of Christian Zionism you'll want to read this thread:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=86884.0
If you're a Christian you should be interested in this. You and your kids and your whole family will be VERY affected by this. Read the thread, find out why certain men felt that Christianity had become too paganized by Europeans to be of use and had to be guided toward a more "primitive Christianity" Thus began the birth of Christian Zionists. Wanna find out who's really been after Christian holidays, the answers might shock you. This topic is an introduction into the birth of the movement to manipulate Christianity. Now you as a Christian might feel that the only people who should be doing that is Christians... But That's not what happened. Please note: It's not a conspiracy against a race or against Jews, we're talking about politics here. Zionism is a political movement, not a race of people... There were and always have been Jews opposed to all of this. It's political. Oh yea, and most important, Christianity is YOUR religion. Don't let outsiders manipulate it for their political objectives. Isn't Christ worth more than that to you ;D
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What exactly is judaism's view on heaven and hell? Does theire scripture even deal with the after-life? I've never been able to get a clear cut answer on this, even when I asked a jew about this (well, he isnt exactly a practicing jew but he's a jew bastard nonetheless). What he pretty much told me is that Jews dont really dwell on ther AFTER life, rather they choose to focus on the PRESENT life and leave whatever there is after the present life upto G-d.
I just had to say it. "G-d" ;) That gives rise to another question- why do jews prefer to write "G-d" instead of "God"? Thanks to whoever obliges to answer the question. :)
The G-d thing is easy. Comes from Deut. 12.2-4. After the smashing of pagan idols and other symbols of polytheism it became the responsibility of the Jews to ensure that nothing associated with the one true G-d (even his name) ever come into danger of being defaced or, erased. As an example, writing the name of G-d on a piece of paper, technically could fall under this catagory since you could crumple up the paper and throw it away, thereby defiling his name.
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There is less of a focus on the afterlife, but observant Jews do believe in a reincarnation of sorts. There is another school of thought -- where the idea of heaven is based on Eden and hell (called Gehenna) is really a form of purgatory where the soul is punished and purified. The Jews believe it takes the human soul 11 months to become cleansed and then is ready to travel to eternity. When a parent dies, a kaddish (mourning prayer) is recited for 11 months afterward.
But because the Jewish religion is so tied to living a good life as intended by G-d, there can be found 613 commandments, (mitzvahs). These are both written and oral laws and include both good deeds as well as rules for living everyday life. For instance, one of the most important mitzvahs is giving to charity anonymously. Other laws affect the way Jews eat, as in keeping kosher. Since almost every minute of the day is somehow touched by the covenant with G-d, it keeps people busy... and can also make it easy to fail.
I don't know how all of this stuff is coming back to me, (took an intensive course a few years ago) since I can barely remember to pick up my dry cleaning. :P
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he's a jew bastard nonetheless).
haider, is this a joke, a term of endearment or a racist comment? I'm serious, I really want to know.
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Dee Dee, thank you....fascinating stuff.
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Interesting. Thanks Deedee. Do they use some version of an Old Testament Bible? I think I've read or heard that they don't use the New Testament?
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BTW, went to my first (and only) Bar Mitzvah a couple years ago. Very interesting. I was too chicken to wear the Yakima. Nice ceremony.
Lol, Beach Bum, it's called a yarmulke, and really it's just a thing worn to show respect by keeping the head covered in the sight of God. Usually, they're held in place with bobby pin, but some prefer the more festive hair clip. :)
Yes, btw, the Jews only use the Old Testament, as they do not believe Jesus was the mosiach.
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Dee Dee, thank you....fascinating stuff.
No prob STella. :) I always thought Judaism was a very interesting religion to study.
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Lol, Beach Bum, it's called a yarmulke, and really it's just a thing worn to show respect by keeping the head covered in the sight of God. Usually, they're held in place with bobby pin, but some prefer the more festive hair clip. :)
Yes, btw, the Jews only use the Old Testament, as they do not believe Jesus was the mosiach.
Doh! Thanks. :)
The Old Testament talks about the Messiah, so if they use the Old Testament they must still be waiting for him to show up.
The New Testament quotes much of the Old Testament too.
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haider, is this a joke, a term of endearment or a racist comment? I'm serious, I really want to know.
haha, its just a joke... The couple of jews that I do know are good people, and the guy I was referring to is no exception to that. He lives in the dorms with me and we have eaten at the same dinner more than a few times, exchanging prejudiced jokes... and all that fun stuff ;D You might also find it interesting that one of my best highschool buddies is a pretty hardcore protestant (evangelicals). So I really hold no grudge against a certain religious type, but its always fun to make fun of "teh jews", especially cuz some people here might think I'm serious hence making it all the mroe fun.
meltdown.
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A lot of truth is said in jest haider!
Haider = typical jew hating muzzie.
These "jewish" friends he talks about only exist in his mind.
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haha, its just a joke... The couple of jews that I do know are good people, and the guy I was referring to is no exception to that. He lives in the dorms with me and we have eaten at the same dinner more than a few times, exchanging prejudiced jokes... and all that fun stuff ;D You might also find it interesting that one of my best highschool buddies is a pretty hardcore protestant (evangelicals). So I really hold no grudge against a certain religious type, but its always fun to make fun of "teh jews", especially cuz some people here might think I'm serious hence making it all the mroe fun.
meltdown.
haider, thanks for your reply :)
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A lot of truth is said in jest haider!
Haider = typical jew hating muzzie.
These "jewish" friends he talks about only exist in his mind.
Does it hurt too much to hear something that goes in contradiciton to the sterotypes you have cooked up in your troubled mind? :-*
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Lol, the Christian and the Muslim exchanging barbs on the Judaism learning thread. Only here... :)
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The Old Testament talks about the Messiah, so if they use the Old Testament they must still be waiting for him to show up.
Yes, that's pretty much it. But again, the Messiah is really a man, not God personified, so the Reform Jews and some Conservatives believe that the Messiah is really a symbol for the age of peace. Then there's always the Kaballah, which deals with the mystic (and also feminine) aspect of Judaism, and includes details concerning the afterlife, but this work is considered so advanced that students are encouraged to learn the Talmud/Torah long before attempting to understand it.
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Yes, that's pretty much it. But again, the Messiah is really a man, not God personified, so the Reform Jews and some Conservatives believe that the Messiah is really a symbol for the age of peace.
And... go on.... Don't leave out the best part of it. What happens next ;D
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And... go on.... Don't leave out the best part of it. What happens next ;D
Lol, I soooo know where you are going with this Berserker. Actually, I already posted it on the last page.
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Yes, that's pretty much it. But again, the Messiah is really a man, not God personified, so the Reform Jews and some Conservatives believe that the Messiah is really a symbol for the age of peace. Then there's always the Kaballah, which deals with the mystic (and also feminine) aspect of Judaism, and includes details concerning the afterlife, but this work is considered so advanced that students are encouraged to learn the Talmud/Torah long before attempting to understand it.
I don't completely understand this. How can the Messiah be a symbol when the Old Testament passages talk about the coming of a specific person?
How can the Messiah be a symbol for the age of peace? Are they waiting for some event?
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I don't completely understand this. How can the Messiah be a symbol when the Old Testament passages talk about the coming of a specific person?
How can the Messiah be a symbol for the age of peace? Are they waiting for some event?
It's much more involved than this but the extremely short version is thus (as I know it) ... the reform movement started I think around 130 years ago, and the followers rejected many of the admonishments and commandments found in the Old Testament, including keeping kosher, driving on Shabbat, going to the mikva, etc. They ordain women and today accept gays into the community. They teach that religion is something living and breathing, which changes as we do. They also do (or did) not believe that Isreal is necessarily the "home" of Jews. Since the coming of the Messiah will be heralded by certain signs, one of which being that all Jews will return to Isreal, this is at odds with the Reform doctrine. They believe it is symbol instead of a Messianic age, wherein peace and prosperity will reign throughout the world.
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It's much more involved than this but the extremely short version is thus (as I know it) ... the reform movement started I think around 130 years ago, and the followers rejected many of the admonishments and commandments found in the Old Testament, including keeping kosher, driving on Shabbat, going to the mikva, etc. They ordain women and today accept gays into the community. They teach that religion is something living and breathing, which changes as we do. They also do (or did) not believe that Isreal is necessarily the "home" of Jews. Since the coming of the Messiah will be heralded by certain signs, one of which being that all Jews will return to Isreal, this is at odds with the Reform doctrine. They believe it is symbol instead of a Messianic age, wherein peace and prosperity will reign throughout the world.
They accept gays and condone their behavior? Does that mean they reject all of the Biblical comments about homosexuality?
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They accept gays and condone their behavior? Does that mean they reject all of the Biblical comments about homosexuality?
Yes, I believe so. But then again they reject all the other things I mentioned, which were also direct commandments from God and of great significance to jews, so it's not such a big leap.
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So What's up guys... You Christian AMERICANS are all Kosher with a one world government? And at that time you'll give up Christ and recognize the one true god the Jewish God, one true religion the Jewish religion? You're all ok with that happening? I mean because that's the plan. We're not talking about just one website, I can find this same thing written today or post quotes from books written a century ago. All these goals are made possible by Christians. (http://www.imagedonkey.com/out.php?i=13113_withstupid.gif) They specificly site that none of this would be possible without you. Maybe you think none of this is real? If so you're dead wrong, there are a whole lot of people who have devoted their lives to making this a reality. Why doesn't anybody want to talk about this? Are you afraid of sounding racist? Talking about this is just that taboo??? Maybe you all know this very well already and do not wish to comment or just don't give a rats butt one way or the other? God will handle it and you have faith that it'll work out right? What???... What makes a Christian want or not care about these things. I would really like to know.
Replacement Theology
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=92538.0