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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Positive Bodybuilding Discussion & Talk => Natural Bodybuilding => Topic started by: James28 on November 12, 2012, 09:16:02 AM
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I'll try and be brief as I have a painful tendency to waffle on and on with this subject.
Basically, I'm natural and current train anywhere from 4-7 days a week, usually 7. As I sit here right now, I done a heavy heavy leg session on Friday, trained back on Saturday morning, trained chest, shoulders and arms yesterday (Sunday), along with 30min worth of cardio each day. Tonight I'm about to go in for another leg session, even though I can still feel DOMS in my legs right now. I've been doing this type of training since July (minus the intense cardio) and have been living with some form of DOMS pretty much everyday since. I just train through it as once I'm warmed up, it doesn't really bother me as much. I keep it up for about 4 cycles (12 days where I train everything 4 times) before suffering sleeplessness or intense joint pain. I also noticed my lifting poundages decrease towards the end so I take a day or two off to recover before starting again.
Now, conventional wisdom indicate that I need to train FAR less as a natural, however, I've made some of my best gains the past 5 months. I've gotten MUCH smaller (but I've also come off my final cycle) but leaned up tremendously. I remember watching an Indian guy (no homo) train calves every single day. After a few months his calves was massive which led me thinking that less isn't always more with natural training and that 'more might be more' if you understand what I'm saying? In other words, the more often I train, the better I get.
What say Getbig? How do you guys train as naturals?
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no wonder you get joint pains. Training legs hard and heavy on Friday and then again today (Monday) is crazy. There are exceptional trainers who can train like this but even they have to take a lay off now and again. I think you should train day on day off or upper body 2x a week and legs hard ONCE a week. what you are doing would grind my joints to a pulp, you said yourself you are feeling it...not good. Just my opinion. i train on a 3 day split.
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But my point is that my gains have improved greatly now that I train so much. Also, I don't bury myself under life-threatening poundages that most people here do (I assume). I go for medium-to-heavy(ish) poundages where I can do a good and solid 8 reps before grinding out the last few.
This week I'm only training twice due to travelling for work. I'll see how I feel next week.
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It is a subject that cycles around every so often. Naturals can more easily overtrain than their drug filled counterparts.
There is a book called "Dinosaur Training" that I recommend to people. One of the odd statements in the book concerns training frequency. It should be infrequent for best gains and yet the author tells a "story" to illustrate hard training about what would happen to a skinny man that went to work in a logging camp.
The guy would essentially be doing hard, heavy and long "workouts" (i.e., logging) and this would trigger what I think the author calls a "grow or die" situation. Which is it? Volume (e.g., logging) or infrequent exercise. It can, depending upon the person, be both. I prefer the latter.
Now having started my lifting "career' nearly forty years ago with volume training I can say that any exercise is good so long as it is done properly and rest, recuperation and food are given high priority. I currently have returned to a Mentzer style of training. HIT did not work all that well for me in my youth but now it seems to be doing fine as I have read of Mentzer's recommendation of more rest than he previously recommended in the 70s. I rest 3 or 4 days (or more) between sessions and those workouts are very brief (15 to 25 minutes) and very intense. I have been doing this for about a month and to date it feels good and seems to be working well.
The longest rest period I have taken so far has been one week and I was stronger, did not lose size and felt excellent. I was eager to train. Lifting is not supposed to be a burdon on your life but rather a way to improve your quality of life. I plan on training this way for at least two more months and see where it takes me.
One thing about being a natural lifter. You don't have to make excuses for your physique because there are none to be made. What is yours is all yours. It didn't come from a bottle or syringe, it came from hard work, good food and adequate rest. Does this mean those that take drugs don't work hard, eat well and get plenty of rest? No, it means that they cheated. Call a spade a spade. Some of them will make excuses, some are man enough to just admit that without the dope they wouldn't be what they are. It doesn't mean they aren't good people.
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It is a subject that cycles around every so often. Naturals can more easily overtrain than their drug filled counterparts.
There is a book called "Dinosaur Training" that I recommend to people. One of the odd statements in the book concerns training frequency. It should be infrequent for best gains and yet the author tells a "story" to illustrate hard training about what would happen to a skinny man that went to work in a logging camp.
The guy would essentially be doing hard, heavy and long "workouts" (i.e., logging) and this would trigger what I think the author calls a "grow or die" situation. Which is it? Volume (e.g., logging) or infrequent exercise. It can, depending upon the person, be both. I prefer the latter.
Now having started my lifting "career' nearly forty years ago with volume training I can say that any exercise is good so long as it is done properly and rest, recuperation and food are given high priority. I currently have returned to a Mentzer style of training. HIT did not work all that well for me in my youth but now it seems to be doing fine as I have read of Mentzer's recommendation of more rest than he previously recommended in the 70s. I rest 3 or 4 days (or more) between sessions and those workouts are very brief (15 to 25 minutes) and very intense. I have been doing this for about a month and to date it feels good and seems to be working well.
The longest rest period I have taken so far has been one week and I was stronger, did not lose size and felt excellent. I was eager to train. Lifting is not supposed to be a burdon on your life but rather a way to improve your quality of life. I plan on training this way for at least two more months and see where it takes me.
One thing about being a natural lifter. You don't have to make excuses for your physique because there are none to be made. What is yours is all yours. It didn't come from a bottle or syringe, it came from hard work, good food and adequate rest. Does this mean those that take drugs don't work hard, eat well and get plenty of rest? No, it means that they cheated. Call a spade a spade. Some of them will make excuses, some are man enough to just admit that without the dope they wouldn't be what they are. It doesn't mean they aren't good people.
a good post and a very enjoyable read.
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Usually those signs like sleeplessness is a signal you are over doing it. You just have to make sure you eat enough and rest enough. Otherwise he body won't tell you to do more.... it will only complain when it is too much. ;)
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I recently took 3 weeks off and had my first day back in the gym an hour ago. Trained legs and felt strong afterwards so I done chest too. I expected to be as weak as puppy shit and, well, I near enough set a new PB on the bench and felt as fit and strong when I walked out there as when I walked in. The time off done WONDERS. In the back of my mind I was worried about losing size or strength but I lost nothing. As far as I can tell anyway. I'm going to cut my gym time down to 4 days a week now and rest the other days. Not even cardio.
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I recently took 3 weeks off and had my first day back in the gym an hour ago. Trained legs and felt strong afterwards so I done chest too. I expected to be as weak as puppy shit and, well, I near enough set a new PB on the bench and felt as fit and strong when I walked out there as when I walked in. The time off done WONDERS. In the back of my mind I was worried about losing size or strength but I lost nothing. As far as I can tell anyway. I'm going to cut my gym time down to 4 days a week now and rest the other days. Not even cardio.
USUALLY I TRAIN AS THIS
MON CHEST/TRI/ABS
TUES OFF
WED BACK/BI/ABS
THURS DELTS.FOREARMS.CALVES
FRI OFF
SAT FULL LEGS
SUN OFF.....ZERO CARDIO...DIET CLEAN FOODS /MIX IN SOME EXTRAS'S/ECT.....
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I recently took 3 weeks off and had my first day back in the gym an hour ago. Trained legs and felt strong afterwards so I done chest too. I expected to be as weak as puppy shit and, well, I near enough set a new PB on the bench and felt as fit and strong when I walked out there as when I walked in. The time off done WONDERS. In the back of my mind I was worried about losing size or strength but I lost nothing. As far as I can tell anyway. I'm going to cut my gym time down to 4 days a week now and rest the other days. Not even cardio.
i have taken a couple of weeks off and came back feeling like King Kong... ;D a rest is great and stops you getting stale. I like doing cardio but my diet is not as strict as njflex.
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i have taken a couple of weeks off and came back feeling like King Kong... ;D a rest is great and stops you getting stale. I like doing cardio but my diet is not as strict as njflex.
:)...
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i train 5 time a week.
i do 4/5 week cycle, then a week off.
during the week off i train on wednesday, bench press/front squat/military press.
each to the max then i go home.
as a natural i had to face a dilema, if i stop benchpress and squat totally i lose too much.
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Been training with a few powerlifters down my new gym. Fucking hell, I'm being put through my paces there boy. Only do the compound stuff with them and go off on my own for the little curls and laterals and other sculpting stuff. My first two weeks I'd be home at 7pm and fall into bed and not stir till 5-6 the next morning. After my first leg sesh I think my body was in actual shock. But a few weeks in now and I've started to acclimatize.
Only thing is that I'm constantly starving hungry. Had a day off from work. Done cardio at 8, had a huge bowl of oats, coffee and orange juice and my stomach was paining with hunger about 30min later. Waited till 12 and have 3 chicken breasts in a vegetable stir fry and by 2 I was hungry again!!
Must be the training
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Been training with a few powerlifters down my new gym. Fucking hell, I'm being put through my paces there boy. Only do the compound stuff with them and go off on my own for the little curls and laterals and other sculpting stuff. My first two weeks I'd be home at 7pm and fall into bed and not stir till 5-6 the next morning. After my first leg sesh I think my body was in actual shock. But a few weeks in now and I've started to acclimatize.
Only thing is that I'm constantly starving hungry. Had a day off from work. Done cardio at 8, had a huge bowl of oats, coffee and orange juice and my stomach was paining with hunger about 30min later. Waited till 12 and have 3 chicken breasts in a vegetable stir fry and by 2 I was hungry again!!
Must be the training
in my opinion and experience compound pwn the living fuck out of isos
the only isos i do nowadays are calf raise (very rarely in fact lol) and crunches
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well i must admit compound exercises are key but why are you not big dj? you shout a lot about AJ and his machines but i do not think you have seen one. Plus sticking to AJ ideas in my opinion has not brought you far. you always talk about the overload principle and that builds muscle in your opinion..so if supersets and other methods are inferior to your AJ overload theory why is your back not thick?
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in my opinion and experience compound pwn the living fuck out of isos
the only isos i do nowadays are calf raise (very rarely in fact lol) and crunches
Yea I'm thinking that I might stop isolation training and just stick with compounds. Trains all the muscles anyway.
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well i must admit compound exercises are key but why are you not big dj? you shout a lot about AJ and his machines but i do not think you have seen one. Plus sticking to AJ ideas in my opinion has not brought you far. you always talk about the overload principle and that builds muscle in your opinion..so if supersets and other methods are inferior to your AJ overload theory why is your back not thick?
allright dude, i'll try and address these points one by one to clarify some things if you will
1st point: you say "you shout a lot about AJ and his machines"
yep i praise AJ's training principles ideals, but i've NEVER praised his machines EVER
2nd point: you say "sticking to AJ ideas in my opinion has not brought you far"
well man, that's YOUR OPINION and if you look at my starting point 5'11" 128 til now 5'11" 175 then i'd say that's some kinda gain
3rd point: you say "you always talk about the overload principle and that builds muscle in your opinion"
yes, the overload does build muscle, but in my own particular case i wasn't able to increase my training loads, hence the reason why i didn't gain size
4th point: you say "why is your back not thick?"
it's not thick, because i DID NOT and WAS NOT ABLE TO INCREASE MY TRAINING LOADS, and yes, it's as simple as that, and in fact my training loads went down in the proceeding weeks before i had that photo taken
but on a side note, the past two months my training loads FINALLY, FUCKING FINALLY went up, and now i ma bigger and thicker ;)
why did these training loads go up? 2 reasons
1. i got over my fear of a severe shoulder injury that i some years back, this fear of re-injuring it held me back from really going all-out on upper body compound moves, but now i'm over this fear and i go all-out on upper compound moves :)
2. i get much more sleep now (before i was only getting 4-5 hours of sleep a day, now i get 8-9 hours of sleep per day)
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allright dude, i'll try and address these points one by one to clarify some things if you will
1st point: you say "you shout a lot about AJ and his machines"
yep i praise AJ's training principles ideals, but i've NEVER praised his machines EVER
2nd point: you say "sticking to AJ ideas in my opinion has not brought you far"
well man, that's YOUR OPINION and if you look at my starting point 5'11" 128 til now 5'11" 175 then i'd say that's some kinda gain
3rd point: you say "you always talk about the overload principle and that builds muscle in your opinion"
yes, the overload does build muscle, but in my own particular case i wasn't able to increase my training loads, hence the reason why i didn't gain size
4th point: you say "why is your back not thick?"
it's not thick, because i DID NOT and WAS NOT ABLE TO INCREASE MY TRAINING LOADS, and yes, it's as simple as that, and in fact my training loads went down in the proceeding weeks before i had that photo taken
but on a side note, the past two months my training loads FINALLY, FUCKING FINALLY went up, and now i ma bigger and thicker ;)
why did these training loads go up? 2 reasons
1. i got over my fear of a severe shoulder injury that i some years back, this fear of re-injuring it held me back from really going all-out on upper body compound moves, but now i'm over this fear and i go all-out on upper compound moves :)
2. i get much more sleep now (before i was only getting 4-5 hours of sleep a day, now i get 8-9 hours of sleep per day)
Funny I see no mention of methasterone.
You're one of us now dj181....why you post on the natural board puzzles me.
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Funny I see no mention of methasterone.
You're one of us now dj181....why you post on the natural board puzzles me.
BLUE STARS ????????????BORRACHO COMACHO...CALLING OUT DJ ;)....
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Funny I see no mention of methasterone.
You're one of us now dj181....why you post on the natural board puzzles me.
i don't claim to be natural nowadays man, but i have LOTS of experience training as a natty prior to less than 1 year ago (when i went over to the darkside)
and as far as the reasons why my training loads went up i still stand by those 2 points
fyi, i was taking 20 mg of sdrol per day each and everyday (basically from april til august) and i WAS NOT making much gains, now i take 10 mg 4-5 days per week, and my gains are really starting to take off :)
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i don't claim to be natural nowadays man, but i have LOTS of experience training as a natty prior to less than 1 year ago (when i went over to the darkside)
and as far as the reasons why my training loads went up i still stand by those 2 points
fyi, i was taking 20 mg of sdrol per day each and everyday (basically from april til august) and i WAS NOT making much gains, now i take 10 mg 4-5 days per week, and my gains are really starting to take off :)
Take away the superdrol and you can say goodbye to any gains you've had recently. You were naturally maxed, otherwise you would not have resorted to taking steroids.
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Take away the superdrol and you can say goodbye to any gains you've had recently. You were naturally maxed, otherwise you would not have resorted to taking steroids.
then hows come i didn't make any gains when i was taking double the dose ???
btw, i'm not saying roids don't work, what i'm saying is there are plenty of other factors involved as well, and if you don't increase your training loads then you will not get bigger END OF STORY
and you are a pro? if yeah, then i'm impressed man :)
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Don't take this as an attack on you personally but you're downplaying the importance steroids have on strength and body composition. Even on 30mg of tbol my strength skyrocketed going from natural....and superdrol is even more powerful stuff.
To me it's kind of like spitting in these guy's faces when you fail to leave out something like that.
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but my whole point is this...
you will not get bigger muscles if you do not increase your training loads
and this applies to ALL LIFTERS natural and enhanced
so you're really a pro? sorry man, but now i'm feeling a bit inferior so i gotta scope out the scene so to speak ;)
btw, what's your db row ;D
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but my whole point is this...
you will not get bigger muscles if you do not increase your training loads
and this applies to ALL LIFTERS natural and enhanced
so you're really a pro? sorry man, but now i'm feeling a bit inferior so i gotta scope out the scene so to speak ;)
btw, what's your db row ;D
You should feel inferior to me :P
From dealing with you I can see you're really hard headed and I think that's partly why you catch so much flack around here. I don't disagree with what you've said but you are too extreme with your increased training load ideas. Bottom line is there will be limits on how much muscle you're able to put on natural or enhanced.
Either way without eating enough food to allow for growth it won't matter how much your training loads increase. It is a combination of training, eating, rest, etc. I know you've been paying a little more attention to what you eat as I've seen you post on the nutrition board recently so that's a good sign. At least now you're thinking about it....
And believe me you can make some great gains even on low doses...do not use that as an excuse. You have to put in as much effort and thought into nutrition as much as you do with your training otherwise you will always be short on maximizing your full potential. The drugs are simple....just take them and they go to work.
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i don't know what he does other than what exercises he mention's,db squat,db row.dj what do u do bodypart breakdown ?
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fair enough man, and thanks for the "non-emotional" post
peeps here seem to take some of these things way too personal on this site, but it ain't that serious
and you're right, i'm a very hard-headed and stubborn individual and Mentzer didn't nickname me The Wild Horse for nothing ;D
and it's good you mention this eating part, coz in my experience one does need to consume an excess of calories to make decent and proper gains, and if you don't eat enough you don't grow enough, so that is a very important point actually
AJ was wrong when he claimed that an excess of cals were/are not required to induce proper muscle growth
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i don't know what he does other than what exercises he mention's,db squat,db row.dj what do u do bodypart breakdown ?
i only do 5 exercises
my Big 3 plus 2 "extras"
here's the 5 lifts which i do
1. db row
2. weighted push-up with feet on bed and one hand on each chair for a deep full-range push-up
3. db squat with one heavy bell btw my legs, legs spread about 30 inches apart (now i'm using 135 pound on this bell, bell i was only using 115 pounds a few days ago ;) so now i'll have top buy 20 kg plates soon)
4. one-leg calf raise (which i only do coz my girl said that my calves are atrocious lol and i do these while gritting my teeth coz i fucking hate being told what to do and i hate this goddamn exercise, so i can imagine that her and i are gonna have a fight about this sometime soon ;D)
5. weighted crunch while holding db plates overhead, but angled back at a 45 degree angle from my head
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fair enough man, and thanks for the "non-emotional" post
peeps here seem to take some of these things way too personal on this site, but it ain't that serious
and you're right, i'm a very hard-headed and stubborn individual and Mentzer didn't nickname me The Wild Horse for nothing ;D
and it's good you mention this eating part, coz in my experience one does need to consume an excess of calories to make decent and proper gains, and if you don't eat enough you don't grow enough, so that is a very important point actually
AJ was wrong when he claimed that an excess of cals were/are not required to induce proper muscle growth
I have absolutely nothing against you.
I'm training somewhat like you train recently and I'm loving it. It was time for a change. If I went by what other people say around here about you I wouldn't even talk to you. But I keep an open mind...think I can learn from many guys on here. Its not like irl here dj where most people are clueless...we speak based on experience and things that actually work for us/people we know.
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I have absolutely nothing against you.
I'm training somewhat like you train recently and I'm loving it. It was time for a change. If I went by what other people say around here about you I wouldn't even talk to you. But I keep an open mind...think I can learn from many guys on here. Its not like irl here dj where most people are clueless...we speak based on experience and things that actually work for us/people we know.
i hear ya man, but just to let you know...
i was trained by JM Blakely he's the guy the JM Press is named after and i was also trained by Bob Lorimer
Bob Lorimer is the son of Jim Lorimer who was Arnold's best man and he is/was the man in charge of the Arnold Classic, and Bob knows King Arnold rather well let's say ;)
so let's say that i got some experience myself :)
my gig is that i try to find what works best for me, and that's that
here's JM
(http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/c/b/cbf81_ORIG-JM_Blakely.jpg)
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i hear ya man, but just to let you know...
i was trained by JM Blakely he's the guy the JM Press is named after and i was also trained by Bob Lorimer
Bob Lorimer is the son of Jim Lorimer who was Arnold's best man and he is/was the man in charge of the Arnold Classic, and Bob knows King Arnold rather well let's say ;)
so let's say that i got some experience myself :)
my gig is that i try to find what works best for me, and that's that
here's JM
(http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/c/b/cbf81_ORIG-JM_Blakely.jpg)
See that's the thing dj...no one cares about stuff like that. I Have absolutely no clue who that guy is and it definitely does not give you some sort of advantage physique wise.
You get a lot of abuse on here and its becoming apparent to me why that is. But like I said...I have nothing against you...I'm the type of guy who always cheers for the bad guy or the underdog in a movie. I'm still trying to find out which one you are exactly.....
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i was trained by JM Blakely he's the guy the JM Press is named after...
The JM press has proven to be a terrific movement for me, personally. It's worth learning them the way Jim Blakely does them as opposed to the form demonstrated by other lifters like Dave Tate, etc. There is a video on YouTube featuring Jim giving a very detailed explanation followed by a performance of the execution.
I was astonished by not only the amount of weight I could handle, but also the comfort of my elbows, which have bothered me from time to time; never from this, though it may have contributed to a bit of pain in my left wrist.
Regardless, I can honestly say that my upper arms have gained noticeable thickness, and my pressing power has improved at a faster rate than it has any time recently.
While Jim naturally recommends his version, he admits that other trainers have experienced good results with variations. Larry Scott most notably used a version in lieu of traditional skull-crushers. Obviously, Scott's predates Blakely's - I'm merely pointing out the comparison.
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The JM press has proven to be a terrific movement for me, personally. It's worth learning them the way Jim Blakely does them as opposed to the form demonstrated by other lifters like Dave Tate, etc. There is a video on YouTube featuring Jim giving a very detailed explanation followed by a performance of the execution.
I was astonished by not only the amount of weight I could handle, but also the comfort of my elbows, which have bothered me from time to time; never from this, though it may have contributed to a bit of pain in my left wrist.
Regardless, I can honestly say that my upper arms have gained noticeable thickness, and my pressing power has improved at a faster rate than it has any time recently.
While Jim naturally recommends his version, he admits that other trainers have experienced good results with variations. Larry Scott most notably used a version in lieu of traditional skull-crushers. Obviously, Scott's predates Blakely's - I'm merely pointing out the comparison.
good points man
he basically says that it's a cross btw a skull-crusher and a close-grip bench press
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good points man
he basically says that it's a cross btw a skull-crusher and a close-grip bench press
Yes, and keep the elbows up and allow the forearms to essentially "fold" onto the biceps. Most guys drop the elbows, with them ultimately pointing at their feet.
I was thoroughly impressed with the effectiveness and efficiency of Blakely's explanation.
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i hear ya man, but just to let you know...
i was trained by JM Blakely he's the guy the JM Press is named after and i was also trained by Bob Lorimer
Bob Lorimer is the son of Jim Lorimer who was Arnold's best man and he is/was the man in charge of the Arnold Classic, and Bob knows King Arnold rather well let's say ;)
so let's say that i got some experience myself :)
my gig is that i try to find what works best for me, and that's that
here's JM
(http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/c/b/cbf81_ORIG-JM_Blakely.jpg)
16 meet in one year, 4 weight classes, good god.
a good cover for a topic about overtraining and natural.
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It can be a mind fuck being natural. I've been slowly dieting and upping my cardio to get ready for the summer but I swear I'm getting more flat. My abs are threatening to come out but I'm probably about 2-3 weeks away with hard dieting and cardio. 2-3 months before I've got a proper lean look. Took a pic this afternoon before gym and might post it up in a bit and regret it to my dying day :D