Author Topic: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!  (Read 744620 times)

Mayday

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2728
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9300 on: February 07, 2023, 11:54:00 AM »


It’s taxation that will fuck 99% of retail, not the security thing.

That guy I have mentioned before who got up to 250M and then lost it all, turns out he also has a 30M tax bill……..

Tax authorities will rip shit through people once they regulate defi via wallets and have exchanges submit tax reports rather than wait for people to voluntarily provide it. I assume the CBDCs will form the back one of this which is 2024 onwards.

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1405
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9301 on: February 07, 2023, 01:21:08 PM »
All stablecoins use Ethereum. Even VISA and Mastercard will be integrating use of stablecoins such as USDC which uses ETH.

This has huge potential for people in developing countries where they need to hedge against depreciation of their local currency and are unable/prohibited from buying hard currencies locally.

Several reserve banks have also done trials using Ethereum for their CBDC's.

And as you mentioned, there is DEFI, smart-contracts and NFT's which overwhelmingly use ETH.

This is not the win you think it is. Several banks are using Ethereum......I wonder why that is?

If you have to attach your identity  to money  it's not money. It's social credit.

Edit: How convenient.

Bank of England proposes £10,000–£20,000 holding limit per person for its digital pound (CBDC).

https://watcher.guru/news/bank-of-england-launches-digital-pound-cbdc-project?c=294




gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4691
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9302 on: February 07, 2023, 10:25:35 PM »
The SEC ruled the EOS ICO as an unregistered token sale and all it did was fine them. The final product was not deemed a security and EOS tokens are still trading.

ETH would have an even better case than EOS if the SEC came after them for their ICO. At worst they can just accept the SEC fine without any admissions of guilt and carry on with business just like EOS.

EOS misled investors during their ICO and all it got was a fine. No one was misled during the ETH ICO.

Also as recently as December 2022 the CFTC has been referring to ETH as a commodity in legal hearings.

Yes, I know the EOS guys. Absolute scammers. They had a good lawyer and got very very lucky (and also very lucky with the money they raised). Also there was not much the SEC could do, as they were all based off-shore in Hong Kong. So paying 25m was a great result for. The companies the SEC are now going after will not be so fortunate I think. Lets see. Outcomes of Library and Ripple will sent important precedents for other unregulated securities such as ETH, and for exchanges.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6370
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9303 on: February 08, 2023, 03:15:26 PM »
This history of Eth cannot be reversed. Same with Ripple. Eth when it was launched obviously had a promoter and founder who received immediate value for a sale of shares in the venture, with the shares being represented by eth tokens. Under a strict application of SEC rules, they really are screwed. As a result, it may very will likely lead to the SEC coming after Vitalk and others, and banning regulated exchanges from trading eth "tokens" (essentially an unregistered security).
You are spreading Ethereum FUD. Because that's all that BTC Maxis can do at this point.

The Ethereum ICO involved the exchange of BTC for ETH, not USD. Vitalik is not a US Citizen and lives in Singapore. So not sure what jurisdiction the SEC will have over him.

Bitcoin first became available to buy, sell and trade on online exchanges in 2010. In April 2011, the price of Bitcoin crossed the $1 threshold for the first time. So what is the difference between an ICO where BTC is exchanged for ETH tokens and being able to exchange USD for BTC in 2010? I fail to see how one would be deemed a security and the other not.

Satoshi was able to mine over 1 million BTC in the early days because he was the first to the gate. That is really no different than pre-mining.

We already have one SEC official claim Bitcoin and Ethereum are not securities. No SEC official has come out and stated Ethereum is a security. And the fact is Proof of Stake Ethereum does not satisfy all he criteria of the Howey Test.

The SEC's job is to protect investors. Where was Gary Gensler when SBF and FTX were defrauding investors? Oh yeah, he was meeting with him and probably having a great time. He failed at his job. The SEC has never been about protecting investors and entrepreneurs. They are really there to advance the agenda of established entities.

The SEC went after Preston Tucker and lost in 1950. But in the process, they destroyed his business and he had to shut down. There's a movie about it starring Jeff Bridges.

https://www.wired.com/2010/01/0122preston-tucker-acquitted/

The SEC is a useless, corrupt entity like the FBI and CIA. All three should be dissolved. They are useless to us.

https://beincrypto.com/eth-pos-is-not-a-security-here-is-why/#:~:text=Ethereum's%20Merge%20has%20led%20to,be%20considered%20as%20a%20security.

How is the Howey test applied to prove an asset, a security
According to The Securities Act of 1933, an investment contract should have three prongs. A contract should satisfy all three prongs. If an instrument does not meet even any one of the prongs, it cannot be considered security.

1. An investment of money
2. In a common enterprise
3. With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others

The prong one states, “An investment of money” The validators depositing their ETH in the smart contract to validate the transactions and keep the Ethereum blockchain secure is not necessarily “an investment of money.” They are putting ETH as collateral to participate in the PoS mechanism. They are not making a purchase or an investment.

However, this argument may be valid technically. Still, it cannot be considered a solid argument because the ETH deposited as collateral can be viewed as a “risk” and may fall under the investment criteria.

Does Ethereum satisfy the second prong?
Under the second prong, “In a common enterprise,” there are two tests of Commonality:

1.Horizontal Commonality means the individual’s capitals are tied to each other by “pooling of funds.” It is combined by pro-rata distribution of profits. Some believe that staking ETH qualifies horizontal Commonality because the fund is staked in a “common” smart contract, which means “pooling of funds.” It is not pooling because no promoter or central authority has direct control over the staked ETH. The validators stake 32 ETH in a common smart contract, but the staked ETH remains distinct and bound to their node. Validators are incentivized to validate the transactions or slashed if they are involved in some malpractice. There is no impact on all the other validators based on the successful actions or failures of a single validator. Hence there is no pro-rata distribution of profits. Thus the Horizontal Commonality is irrelevant.

2. Vertical Commonality: The vertical Commonality focuses on the relationship between the investor and the issuer/promoter. It is irrelevant in the case of Ethereum because there is no promoter. Ethereum is a decentralized and open-sourced project. Anyone can join the Ethereum network as a validator. They are rewarded or slashed based on their actions through the codes of smart contracts. The rewards they receive are not due to the efforts of any promoters or issuer.

Hence Ethereum fails to satisfy both the test of Commonality. Failure of even one of the prongs proves that Ethereum cannot be considered a security as per the Howey test.

Does Ethereum satisfy the third prong?
The third prong states, “With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others.”

The staking reward in Ethereum is determined by the validator’s own efforts, as explained earlier. It does not “solely depend on efforts of others.” The validators are putting efforts into maximizing their up-time and remaining connected to the network.

Ethereum fails to satisfy, if not all, but 2 out of 3 prongs. Hence ETH PoS is not a security.

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4691
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9304 on: February 08, 2023, 09:01:01 PM »
"The Ethereum ICO involved the exchange of BTC for ETH, not USD."

Does not matter how the money was raised. Whether via BTC, cash, or anything else of the value, if there is a fund raise it comes within the SEC mandate. (Otherwise, anyone could do an unapproved IPO simply by requesting payment in BTC).

"Vitalik is not a US Citizen and lives in Singapore. So not sure what jurisdiction the SEC will have over him."

Citizenship is not relevant, but yes country of residence is (for practical purposes). Either way, the exchanges that trade Eth are based in the US can easily be sanctioned, and either way the Ethereum Foundation is an organization which can be served and held accountable.

"So what is the difference between an ICO where BTC is exchanged for ETH tokens and being able to exchange USD for BTC in 2010? I fail to see how one would be deemed a security and the other not."

The difference is in how BTC was launched. BTC was source code, with no project founder raising capital. As you know, even Satoshi has to mine his own coins. This is why almost all alts are unregulated securities, and why US exchanges will likely be banned from facilitating trading of them,


"No SEC official has come out and stated Ethereum is a security."

Not correct. The SEC has been explicitly clear that Eth is an unregistered security. And they have issues very clear warnings to US exchanges on this.

See https://coingeek.com/is-eth-a-security-if-it-wasnt-before-it-is-now/

"The SEC's job is to protect investors. Where was Gary Gensler when SBF and FTX were defrauding investors? Oh yeah, he was meeting with him and probably having a great time. He failed at his job."

Agree, and hence the pressure is now really on given prior lack of action.

"According to The Securities Act of 1933, an investment contract should have three prongs. A contract should satisfy all three prongs. If an instrument does not meet even any one of the prongs, it cannot be considered security.

1. An investment of money
2. In a common enterprise
3. With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others."

Yes, this is correct. And the courts will determine if satisfied. If it walks, talks, and qwaks like a duck, then its likely a duck. Time will tell.

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1405
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9305 on: February 08, 2023, 10:01:08 PM »
Right on time Gib.

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1405
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9306 on: February 08, 2023, 10:16:21 PM »
The difference is in how BTC was launched. BTC was source code, with no project founder raising capital. As you know, even Satoshi has to mine his own coins. This is why almost all alts are unregulated securities, and why US exchanges will likely be banned from facilitating trading of them,

Didn't Eth founders dump Eth top of the 17 bull market? 14 years on and not a single btc has moved from Satoshi Nakmotos wallet.

If SEC does classify Eth as a security, it will be like rats fleeing a sinking ship and be a major shift towards BTC. It would be entertaining to watch "the cope" unfold.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6370
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9307 on: February 08, 2023, 10:49:48 PM »
Right on time Gib.
I'll just set up my own solo staking validators. I have enough ETH for multiple validators. Should have gone that route from the start. The March 2023 Shanghai upgrade will enable unstaking. Then I can get my ETH off Coinbase.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6370
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9308 on: February 08, 2023, 10:58:08 PM »
Didn't Eth founders dump Eth top of the 17 bull market? 14 years on and not a single btc has moved from Satoshi Nakmotos wallet.

If SEC does classify Eth as a security, it will be like rats fleeing a sinking ship and be a major shift towards BTC. It would be entertaining to watch "the cope" unfold.
Didn't gib dump almost 100% of his BTC after the 2017 bull run? And then he bought back in again when the price was lower? I say he was smart to do that.

Last year (2022) the ETH foundation sold about 5% of its holdings.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6370
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9309 on: February 08, 2023, 11:25:16 PM »
The SEC will have to prove staking is a security. I am sure dirty Gary Gensler will do his best as he protects his banker friends. I was suspicious of Gensler from the onset because I know which tribe he represents. Would be nice to see his greasy ass in prison - even though that will most likely never happen.

A few things that need to happen:

1. End the Fed
2. Dissolve the SEC
3. Dissolve the FBI
4. Dissolve the CIA
5. Remove all corrupt politicians and send them to hard labor camps.


Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7967
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9310 on: February 08, 2023, 11:25:25 PM »


Not correct. The SEC has been explicitly clear that Eth is an unregistered security. And they have issues very clear warnings to US exchanges on this.

See https://coingeek.com/is-eth-a-security-if-it-wasnt-before-it-is-now/


The SEC has never said that. The only thing Gensler has explicitly said is that Bitcoin was the only thing they were sure wasn't a security.

The Gensler quotes in the article doesn't back up what you're saying either

“[Staking services] look very similar—with some changes of labeling—to lending,” he said.

“From the coin’s perspective… that’s another indication that under the Howey test, the investing public is anticipating profits based on the efforts of others,”

Kraken Exchange has been warned for offering unregistered securities to US clients and will probably be fined for it. There was no mention of ETH

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7967
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9311 on: February 08, 2023, 11:30:12 PM »
Didn't Eth founders dump Eth top of the 17 bull market? 14 years on and not a single btc has moved from Satoshi Nakmotos wallet.

If SEC does classify Eth as a security, it will be like rats fleeing a sinking ship and be a major shift towards BTC. It would be entertaining to watch "the cope" unfold.

Surely you can't be naive enough to think who or whatever Satoshi Nakmoto was didn't have other wallets they sold BTC out of at some point.

Yes Vitalik and the Foundation sold some of their Eth. The money from the sale gave the project a long runway, allowed them to hire more people, fund other projects in the ecosystem and that's part of the reason why they have the most development going on of any crypto project.

Bitcoins most promising piece of development in that time came about by accident.

Right on time Gib.

Wouldn't get too excited about this just yet. I would love a price dump more than anyone, but this is looking like another Bitzlato nothing burger moment.

Ironically banning centralized exchanges from staking ETH actually helps it towards more decentralization.

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4691
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9312 on: February 09, 2023, 03:29:01 AM »
"Surely you can't be naive enough to think who or whatever Satoshi Nakmoto was didn't have other wallets they sold BTC out of at some point."

Its not a matter of how the sats were later sold. Its the fact that every sat was produced and available to anyone to produce via mining. There was not a single sat pre-mined given to founders (unlike eth and almost all scam alts).

"Ironically banning centralized exchanges from staking ETH actually helps it towards more decentralization."

Not sure about that, as it does not chance the centralized (and increasingly centralized) nature of Eth,

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4691
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9313 on: February 09, 2023, 03:36:58 AM »
Didn't gib dump almost 100% of his BTC after the 2017 bull run? And then he bought back in again when the price was lower? I say he was smart to do that.


Yes, I did (early 2018 from memory). And I got a lot of shit for it at the time, being called a scammer and traitor etc. The whole story is documented in the thread somewhere but basically, yes I did sell (timing was not "perfect" but from memory 5x or so up on my initial investment). My reason for selling was not that I didn't believe in BTC or all it stood for, but that I felt it was the bursting of a short term bubble. I then rebought in close to the bottom again, and have been holding ever since. I did not cash in again during the last peak at 64K. Imagine doing that a second time around. I posted a few pages back that I now have over 50 BTCs and a smaller amount of ETH (I need to check but I think around 10-15 ETH) and then a tiny amount of alt shrapnel (as in 1/10th of 1% of my total crypto).

In case anyone is wondering why I can't provide he exact amount, is basically because my physical access device is stored remotely, and when I buy (as I am still nibbling away at BTC), I send right away to that wallet address.

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7967
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9314 on: February 09, 2023, 04:58:17 AM »
"Surely you can't be naive enough to think who or whatever Satoshi Nakmoto was didn't have other wallets they sold BTC out of at some point."

Its not a matter of how the sats were later sold. Its the fact that every sat was produced and available to anyone to produce via mining. There was not a single sat pre-mined given to founders (unlike eth and almost all scam alts).

Eth was not pre-mined. Btc was exchanged for Eth. Take fiat out of the equation and let's assume the only medium of exchange that exists is btc (it's fair to do this as no fiat was involved in the btc for eth exchange) Then to say an exchange of btc for something else (Eth) is not a valid exchange would be to say btc itself is not valid.

Eth founders and foundation were open and clear about  taking a percentage, with the promise they'd grow Ethereum. I think they've more than kept that promise. If they eventually present a near perfect final solution to the blockchain trilemma do you think everyone should reject it just because they were smart enough to secure a long runway by selling some eth in 2017?

"Ironically banning centralized exchanges from staking ETH actually helps it towards more decentralization."

Not sure about that, as it does not chance the centralized (and increasingly centralized) nature of Eth,

The amount of staked ETH in centralized exchanges could potentially one day allow for them to coordinate a 51%attack. Not allowing ETH staking on centralized exchanges removes this attack vector.

Griffith

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • .......
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9315 on: February 09, 2023, 09:26:02 AM »
You are spreading Ethereum FUD. Because that's all that BTC Maxis can do at this point.

The Ethereum ICO involved the exchange of BTC for ETH, not USD. Vitalik is not a US Citizen and lives in Singapore. So not sure what jurisdiction the SEC will have over him.

Bitcoin first became available to buy, sell and trade on online exchanges in 2010. In April 2011, the price of Bitcoin crossed the $1 threshold for the first time. So what is the difference between an ICO where BTC is exchanged for ETH tokens and being able to exchange USD for BTC in 2010? I fail to see how one would be deemed a security and the other not.

Satoshi was able to mine over 1 million BTC in the early days because he was the first to the gate. That is really no different than pre-mining.

We already have one SEC official claim Bitcoin and Ethereum are not securities. No SEC official has come out and stated Ethereum is a security. And the fact is Proof of Stake Ethereum does not satisfy all he criteria of the Howey Test.

The SEC's job is to protect investors. Where was Gary Gensler when SBF and FTX were defrauding investors? Oh yeah, he was meeting with him and probably having a great time. He failed at his job. The SEC has never been about protecting investors and entrepreneurs. They are really there to advance the agenda of established entities.

The SEC went after Preston Tucker and lost in 1950. But in the process, they destroyed his business and he had to shut down. There's a movie about it starring Jeff Bridges.

https://www.wired.com/2010/01/0122preston-tucker-acquitted/

The SEC is a useless, corrupt entity like the FBI and CIA. All three should be dissolved. They are useless to us.

https://beincrypto.com/eth-pos-is-not-a-security-here-is-why/#:~:text=Ethereum's%20Merge%20has%20led%20to,be%20considered%20as%20a%20security.

How is the Howey test applied to prove an asset, a security
According to The Securities Act of 1933, an investment contract should have three prongs. A contract should satisfy all three prongs. If an instrument does not meet even any one of the prongs, it cannot be considered security.

1. An investment of money
2. In a common enterprise
3. With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others

The prong one states, “An investment of money” The validators depositing their ETH in the smart contract to validate the transactions and keep the Ethereum blockchain secure is not necessarily “an investment of money.” They are putting ETH as collateral to participate in the PoS mechanism. They are not making a purchase or an investment.

However, this argument may be valid technically. Still, it cannot be considered a solid argument because the ETH deposited as collateral can be viewed as a “risk” and may fall under the investment criteria.

Does Ethereum satisfy the second prong?
Under the second prong, “In a common enterprise,” there are two tests of Commonality:

1.Horizontal Commonality means the individual’s capitals are tied to each other by “pooling of funds.” It is combined by pro-rata distribution of profits. Some believe that staking ETH qualifies horizontal Commonality because the fund is staked in a “common” smart contract, which means “pooling of funds.” It is not pooling because no promoter or central authority has direct control over the staked ETH. The validators stake 32 ETH in a common smart contract, but the staked ETH remains distinct and bound to their node. Validators are incentivized to validate the transactions or slashed if they are involved in some malpractice. There is no impact on all the other validators based on the successful actions or failures of a single validator. Hence there is no pro-rata distribution of profits. Thus the Horizontal Commonality is irrelevant.

2. Vertical Commonality: The vertical Commonality focuses on the relationship between the investor and the issuer/promoter. It is irrelevant in the case of Ethereum because there is no promoter. Ethereum is a decentralized and open-sourced project. Anyone can join the Ethereum network as a validator. They are rewarded or slashed based on their actions through the codes of smart contracts. The rewards they receive are not due to the efforts of any promoters or issuer.

Hence Ethereum fails to satisfy both the test of Commonality. Failure of even one of the prongs proves that Ethereum cannot be considered a security as per the Howey test.

Does Ethereum satisfy the third prong?
The third prong states, “With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others.”

The staking reward in Ethereum is determined by the validator’s own efforts, as explained earlier. It does not “solely depend on efforts of others.” The validators are putting efforts into maximizing their up-time and remaining connected to the network.

Ethereum fails to satisfy, if not all, but 2 out of 3 prongs. Hence ETH PoS is not a security.

Good post.


Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7967
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9316 on: February 09, 2023, 05:26:15 PM »
I'll just set up my own solo staking validators. I have enough ETH for multiple validators. Should have gone that route from the start. The March 2023 Shanghai upgrade will enable unstaking. Then I can get my ETH off Coinbase.

It was a nothing burger. No issues with Coinbase or Eth.

Kraken commingled customer assets so they could harvest higher yeilds with it. This deemed the staking a "security" as it was now custodial staking.




obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6370
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9317 on: February 09, 2023, 08:03:00 PM »
It was a nothing burger. No issues with Coinbase or Eth.

Kraken commingled customer assets so they could harvest higher yeilds with it. This deemed the "staking" a security as it was now custodial staking.
Agreed. It seems more likely to me that the SEC will crack down on stablecoin staking. Because that competes with government bonds. Staking in volatile assets like Ethereum or Cardano will not impact government bonds.

Bitboy recently opined on this. Completely banning Ethereum or Cardano staking will not fly because the blockchains rely on staking to confirm transactions. ETH or ADA staking is completely different from earning interest on stablecoins.


SOMEPARTS

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15865
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9318 on: February 09, 2023, 08:44:15 PM »
Everybody in here still typing up their crypto hopes and dreams? Never have I seen such un-required complexity and wilful entanglement in a derivative of value. It's like listening to dorks talk about Dungeons and Dragons in the basement when it's summer and everyone is outside. LOL



Mayday

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2728
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9319 on: February 10, 2023, 03:29:03 AM »
This time around staking was where considerable fraud was being done.

No surprise every country wants to ban staking. These mobs go and get leverage against customer deposits or even worse sell customer deposits, why would anyone be against this being fixed?

Regulations in 2023-24 will likely kill a huge number of projects which makes existing projects stronger.

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7967
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9320 on: February 10, 2023, 04:06:01 AM »
This time around staking was where considerable fraud was being done.

No surprise every country wants to ban staking. These mobs go and get leverage against customer deposits or even worse sell customer deposits, why would anyone be against this being fixed?

Regulations in 2023-24 will likely kill a huge number of projects which makes existing projects stronger.

Btc maxis got all horny thinking this was the Eth kill shit. Everyone else was outraged because how dare the SEC interfere with their  staking rewards.

Kraken like you said were the ones who were frauding and actually in wrong.

The irony is that it looks like bitcoins price dropped just after this news was officially released. It wasn't even bitcoin FUD, more bullish for btc. If you look at the US stock charts for the day they went down and dxy went up and btc eventually lined up to the trend. A well worked psyops that wiped some leverage out.

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7967
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9321 on: February 10, 2023, 04:07:25 AM »
Everybody in here still typing up their crypto hopes and dreams? Never have I seen such un-required complexity and wilful entanglement in a derivative of value. It's like listening to dorks talk about Dungeons and Dragons in the basement when it's summer and everyone is outside. LOL


Hopes and dreams? No bro I'm in the utter greed phase.

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1405
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9322 on: February 10, 2023, 07:20:53 AM »
"The Ethereum ICO involved the exchange of BTC for ETH, not USD."

Does not matter how the money was raised. Whether via BTC, cash, or anything else of the value, if there is a fund raise it comes within the SEC mandate. (Otherwise, anyone could do an unapproved IPO simply by requesting payment in BTC).

"Vitalik is not a US Citizen and lives in Singapore. So not sure what jurisdiction the SEC will have over him."

Citizenship is not relevant, but yes country of residence is (for practical purposes). Either way, the exchanges that trade Eth are based in the US can easily be sanctioned, and either way the Ethereum Foundation is an organization which can be served and held accountable.

"So what is the difference between an ICO where BTC is exchanged for ETH tokens and being able to exchange USD for BTC in 2010? I fail to see how one would be deemed a security and the other not."

The difference is in how BTC was launched. BTC was source code, with no project founder raising capital. As you know, even Satoshi has to mine his own coins. This is why almost all alts are unregulated securities, and why US exchanges will likely be banned from facilitating trading of them,


"No SEC official has come out and stated Ethereum is a security."

Not correct. The SEC has been explicitly clear that Eth is an unregistered security. And they have issues very clear warnings to US exchanges on this.

See https://coingeek.com/is-eth-a-security-if-it-wasnt-before-it-is-now/

"The SEC's job is to protect investors. Where was Gary Gensler when SBF and FTX were defrauding investors? Oh yeah, he was meeting with him and probably having a great time. He failed at his job."

Agree, and hence the pressure is now really on given prior lack of action.

"According to The Securities Act of 1933, an investment contract should have three prongs. A contract should satisfy all three prongs. If an instrument does not meet even any one of the prongs, it cannot be considered security.

1. An investment of money
2. In a common enterprise
3. With reasonable expectations of profits derived solely from the efforts of others."

Yes, this is correct. And the courts will determine if satisfied. If it walks, talks, and qwaks like a duck, then its likely a duck. Time will tell.

https://twitter.com/VandelayBTC/status/1623838500188569601?s=20&t=_m4Fwfh3WjZkTllyKz20Sg

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4691
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9323 on: February 10, 2023, 09:28:56 PM »
"Crypto businesses don’t properly safeguard customer assets and often mix them with their own funds. This according to US Securities and Exchange Commission Chair Gary Gensler, who was especially blunt in his assessment of the embattled asset class and its proponents. “This is largely a noncompliant field,” Gensler said in an interview with Bloomberg Television. “They’re commingling customer funds with their businesses.” The negativity from the SEC chief is nothing new. For months he’s been warning of the potential dangers posed by the industry. The regulator has asserted that many tokens and crypto products are really just securities that trade on the blockchain and should be registered with the agency.  Gensler took particular issue with how crypto exchanges often play multiple roles. He suggested their business models can create significant conflicts of interest. “We don’t let the New York Stock Exchange also run a hedge fund and trade on the exchange.” he said. “Why would we do it here?”"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-10/crypto-firms-often-mix-client-funds-with-their-own-gensler-says?

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6370
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9324 on: February 11, 2023, 01:47:56 AM »
https://twitter.com/VandelayBTC/status/1623838500188569601?s=20&t=_m4Fwfh3WjZkTllyKz20Sg
Saylor is a clown. It was extremely cringeworthy when he appeared onstage with the other clown Max Keizer who kept yelling "Fuck Elon!". Not a good look at all.

 ;D

Real or not, this is funny!