Author Topic: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!  (Read 728785 times)

Mayday

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2708
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9275 on: February 05, 2023, 11:42:52 AM »
Gib Throwing down the gauntlet! Let’s get this party started!


Griffith

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8776
  • .......
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9276 on: February 05, 2023, 10:44:15 PM »
We are looking at a likely range of 180K - 240K end of 2025.

All the massive funds, bankers, HNWs and centillionairs are scooping up sats on the sly in the 23-64K range. Once we start approaching ATHs, they will really turn on the PR machine, Media, annual reports, investor newsletters, CNBC,  Bloomberg, etc, and that's when taps just open and a huge volume of investor money flows into a very tight asset.

So, JP Morgan, Blackrock, Goldman Sachs, etc all stand to make a 10x return on Bitcoin, in USD, in 2ish years.

We at getbig all have a unique opportunity to turn all this BS chat into a very very profitable investment. I hope others will join me on this amazing journey ahead. We have the opportunity to front run this. Use your heads, and set yourselves up for the future.

If BTC goes 10x from here that put ETH 15x at 24K.

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9277 on: February 05, 2023, 10:47:18 PM »
Bitcoin core developers encouraging censorship and trying to gatekeep isn't just "technical debate". That kinda thing goes fundamentally against decentralization and bitcoin.

You don't seem to have a problem with this and your go to defence is to attack the ETH community and shitcoins when they have nothing to do with it. It's time to take the maxi blinkers off for a minute and call this kinda thing out.

Long term Bitcoin has a problem, if the price doesn't keep doubling every 4 years then then the security model breaks. It needs development to make sure the network can still remain secure even if the price doesn't double. It needs more than just the lighting network (which in its current state isn't fit purpose) Core developers gatekeeping just pushes away the people who can help achieve that, just like it did back in 2014/15.

I'm not for any censorship  of any kind  in regards to btc and I believe Adam back rolled back on his comments or atleast explained it better.

My btc blinkers will stay firmly while shitcoiners high beams blind them with the use of terminology "old tech" to promote their centralised con game. First time in human history we've manage to store wealth/money/energy and transact in a manner that's truly decentrilised and secure and after 14 years it's now being called "old tech"? I'd like to know which of these POS coins solves decentralisation and security at the base layer without compromising centralisation?
Copying the bitcoin code and extending the blocksiZe to solve scalability whilst sacrificing decentralisation is not new tech.



I don't know what the future holds for btc 10+ years from now, how can I? It's something revolutionary and never existed before, unlike these altcoins which resemble the legacy financial system. We can both agree that is broken. I bet that everything this shitcoins are doing on a centralised blockchain, eventually  bitcoin will and is developing on a decentralised  base layer, hence 99% will  go to 0.

We now know Vitalik owns 330k ETH, if he was to stake them for 25 years he would own 51% of existing ETH, giving him control over the network. Where in btc, you could own 10million btc and same rules apply to you as the guy who owns .1 btc. Fair and equal for all.

In regards to a 51% attack.



The problem I have with POS is it represents old financial legacy systems which are broken. Top validators are rewarded and can change the rules. POW/btc represents a parallel system which every one can participate on equal terms and not fear the rules been changed half way through due to legislation or an authoritarian regime.

In regards to a physical 51% attack, I believe you would need $8billion + in equipment just to facilitate such an attack and that much hardware being purchased would not go unnoticed. Especially now since there is a shortage.  Basically a nation state would have to bank roll it. Imagine  USA spending tax payer dollars to hijack a network in which 50million+ people hodl or have held  btc. Almost certain death for that political party. I'm not saying it's impossible, but as the network grows and becomes more secure it's attack vector will  be to costly and make little to no sense.

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9278 on: February 05, 2023, 11:06:13 PM »

There is talks about Russian and Iran developing a gold back stablecoin to facilitate trade, given the recent drone strikes by Israel in Iran, would like to see what happens as these events could lead to escalation.



"1"

99.9% chance that will never happen. Gold lost its premium after Breton Woods. How are they going to verify constantly how much gold they have  in reserves? It's not like btc where it's easily audible running your own node. Will those two countries really trust each other with verification?

If so, most of the liquidity is on the American and London markets. What's Russia going to do, sell its gold for rubles?

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6318
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9279 on: February 05, 2023, 11:50:16 PM »
I'm not for any censorship  of any kind  in regards to btc and I believe Adam back rolled back on his comments or atleast explained it better.

My btc blinkers will stay firmly while shitcoiners high beams blind them with the use of terminology "old tech" to promote their centralised con game. First time in human history we've manage to store wealth/money/energy and transact in a manner that's truly decentrilised and secure and after 14 years it's now being called "old tech"? I'd like to know which of these POS coins solves decentralisation and security at the base layer without compromising centralisation?
Copying the bitcoin code and extending the blocksiZe to solve scalability whilst sacrificing decentralisation is not new tech.



I don't know what the future holds for btc 10+ years from now, how can I? It's something revolutionary and never existed before, unlike these altcoins which resemble the legacy financial system. We can both agree that is broken. I bet that everything this shitcoins are doing on a centralised blockchain, eventually  bitcoin will and is developing on a decentralised  base layer, hence 99% will  go to 0.

We now know Vitalik owns 330k ETH, if he was to stake them for 25 years he would own 51% of existing ETH, giving him control over the network. Where in btc, you could own 10million btc and same rules apply to you as the guy who owns .1 btc. Fair and equal for all.

In regards to a 51% attack.
Your numbers are off. If he staked all of his ETH (330,000) for 25 years @ 5% APR he would earn around 819,243 ETH. That's around 0.67% of the total current ETH supply. Hardly 51%.

Meanwhile, Michael Saylor owns around 0.67% of the current Bitcoin supply.

https://walletburst.com/tools/ethereum-staking-calculator/


obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6318
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9280 on: February 05, 2023, 11:53:31 PM »
Thanks for the answer Flexacon, in 15 lines you provided more value than all these youtube channels with million of subscribers, telling us that the bitcoin price will eventually reach a million $ per coin in the next decade....lol
By the way what do you think about Ethereum, I am watching the tokenomics (6-7% yield & reduction in issuance) after the merge and they look great, however I am a bit worried about the SEC declaring it as a security and to be honest right now under the Howey test the current form of the network looks a lot closer to a security than a digital commodity.
 I remember an ETH whale named "Tetranode" in the "Up only" youtube channel, saying that ETH price will eventually reach 100k$ by 2030 but it seems to me as ludicrous as the million$ price prediction of BTC, I think both coins have yet to win the battle of going to zero, what do you think.
Ethereum requires validators to secure the network. Each validator acts independently and can have different returns. The validator owner needs to maintain the hardware, internet connection and electrical service. In the same way that a Bitcoin miner has to maintain their mining equipment. That does not satisfy the Howey Test. Anyone that claims so does not understand the technology.

https://www.paradigm.xyz/2022/10/ethereums-new-staking-model-does-not-make-eth-a-security

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9281 on: February 06, 2023, 12:39:02 AM »
Your numbers are off. If he staked all of his ETH (330,000) for 25 years @ 5% APR he would earn around 819,243 ETH. That's around 0.67% of the total current ETH supply. Hardly 51%.

Meanwhile, Michael Saylor owns around 0.67% of the current Bitcoin supply.

https://walletburst.com/tools/ethereum-staking-calculator/

Sorry you're right, I meant vitalik and the foundation. If they controlled  10% of staked Eth at 5% it would take around 33years to accumulated 51% of ETH staked.

How much was Eth premined again,, 70%?

If Michael Saylor owned 30% of the bitcoin could ge alter and block transactions or change the protocol?

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9282 on: February 06, 2023, 12:53:23 AM »
What is metamask:

"Launched by Aaron Davis in 2016 and headquartered in San Francisco, MetaMask is a decentralized , non-custodial Ethereum-based wallet that allows users to store, buy, send, convert, and swap crypto tokens. The wallet is available as a mobile app and browser extension on Google Chrome, Firefox, Opera, and Brave"


What is opensea:

OpenSea is a game-changing decentralized marketplace for buying and selling NFTs. If you’re wondering, NFTs stands for Non-Fungible Tokens, which are unique, collectible digital things like in-game assets, avatars, trading cards, and art.


Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9283 on: February 06, 2023, 01:42:52 AM »
Thanks for the answer Flexacon, in 15 lines you provided more value than all these youtube channels with million of subscribers, telling us that the bitcoin price will eventually reach a million $ per coin in the next decade....lol
By the way what do you think about Ethereum, I am watching the tokenomics (6-7% yield & reduction in issuance) after the merge and they look great, however I am a bit worried about the SEC declaring it as a security and to be honest right now under the Howey test the current form of the network looks a lot closer to a security than a digital commodity.
 I remember an ETH whale named "Tetranode" in the "Up only" youtube channel, saying that ETH price will eventually reach 100k$ by 2030 but it seems to me as ludicrous as the million$ price prediction of BTC, I think both coins have yet to win the battle of going to zero, what do you think.

Yep and by then to become a validator and "secure the network" like obsidian says you will only Need $3,200,000 in Eth. Only the wealthiest can afford to participate and benefit from the Eth platform. The idea that its some kind of saviour for billions of disadvantaged people will always be bullshit.

Even if you are lucky to be a validator, does somebody get  rich if your are unable to withdraw?


Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7836
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9284 on: February 06, 2023, 03:33:04 AM »
Sorry you're right, I meant vitalik and the foundation. If they controlled  10% of staked Eth at 5% it would take around 33years to accumulated 51% of ETH staked.

How much was Eth premined again,, 70%?

If Michael Saylor owned 30% of the bitcoin could ge alter and block transactions or change the protocol?

You need to stop getting your Ethereum information through maxi only channels as it's made you horribly misinformed.

- ETH was never premined. There was an ICO,  pre launch you sent BTC and later received an ETH wallet and ETH. Then after launch you could mine ETH. Pre PoS all ETH came into existence through either mined BTC or mining ETH. The controversy is behind the Eth founders and foundation taking a percentage through the ICO, but those sending BTC for ETH knew this.

- The main reason BTC gets called old tech is because it isn't "Turing complete" and Ethereum is. Mathematically it's possible to do anything you can do on your computer on Ethereum. This hasn't really mattered in the last 14 years, but it should be obvious why this could be hugely advantageous in the future.

- Your points about Metamask and opensea are accurate, but those are products and about user choices. They are not ETH. People are free to make a choice about using them or not.

- You need 32 ETH not $3,200,000 in Eth to become a validator. That's just over $50k. Staking pools make it even cheaper. Also you don't need to worry about high energy costs and constantly upgrading mining equipment like you do with bitcoin. Running Eth validators is far simpler.

As I said, you need to take the maxi blinkers off and go look at things for yourself. And that doesn't mean you should go and buy Eth, but so you can start asking yourself why some maxi news sources are full of misleading statements and hypocrisy.

Theoak*

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9285 on: February 06, 2023, 04:52:34 AM »
You need to stop getting your Ethereum information through maxi only channels as it's made you horribly misinformed.

- ETH was never premined. There was an ICO,  pre launch you sent BTC and later received an ETH wallet and ETH. Then after launch you could mine ETH. Pre PoS all ETH came into existence through either mining BTC or ETH. The controversy is behind the Eth founders and foundation taking a percentage through the ICO, but those sending BTC for ETH knew this.

- The main reason BTC gets called old tech is because it isn't "Turing complete" and Ethereum is. Mathematically it's possible to do anything you can do on your computer on Ethereum. This hasn't really mattered in the last 14 years, but it should be obvious why this could be hugely advantageous in the future.

- Your points about Metamask and opensea are accurate, but those are products and about user choices. They are not ETH. People are free to make a choice about using them or not.

- You need 32 ETH not $3,200,000 in Eth to become a validator. That's just over $50k. Staking pools make it even cheaper. Also you don't need to worry about high energy costs and constantly upgrading mining equipment like you do with bitcoin. Running Eth validators is far simpler.

As I said, you need to take the maxi blinkers off and go look at things for yourself. And that doesn't mean you should go and buy Eth, but so you can start asking yourself why some maxi news sources are full of misleading statements and hypocrisy.

I bought Eth in 2015, before it was called ICO we referred to it as premined or let's just settle on preminted. Exactly what it is.  You can call it whatever you want.

I've explained why "old tech" is used in previous posts. Nfts, smart contracts, Web 3 is being touted now. Here's your issue with Eth, (and you refuse to acknowledge its centralisation aspect.) A database is way more efficient for centrilisation. Companies like Amazon and Google are not going to move all their stuff onto a more expensive centralised structure to build a web3, it's ludicrous. That's not the future to me.

The future is 8 billion people running the 21st century economy on their mobile devices via a decentrilised and secure baselayer that has hardened money. I'm betting on billions of people owning mobile devices  and not computers.


Read again what I wrote about Eth con artists with their words "old tech" and "decentrilised" both opensea and metamask are masquerading as decentrilised products. It's there for you to read in the quote.

The original quote was predicting a price of 100k eth, at that price 3,200,000 is required to stake. Even  at current prices 50k is beyond reach for most first world participants, nevertheless the other 6 billion people who don't have access to financial services. Then it's staked via a centralised entity for most. No thanks.

It's ok, I'll keep the blinkers on and have been since purchasing btc at $200. Only difference between shitcoiners and early btc adopters is we are not looking for that 100x. We are not co-opted by money. So seeing a path forward where everyone can benefit from a "new technology" both equally and securely is more my range of scope.

BTW this is what co-opted by money looks like:

If BTC goes 10x from here that put ETH 15x at 24K.

You want to call me misinformed, go for it. Time will tell. I'm not going to store my time and energy into a "centralised company" that's built on sand that resembles failing systems of old.


Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7836
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today! complete is
« Reply #9286 on: February 06, 2023, 05:31:23 AM »


I've explained why "old tech" is used in previous posts. Nfts, smart contracts, Web 3 is being touted now. Here's your issue with Eth, (and you refuse to acknowledge its centralisation aspect.) A database is way more efficient for centrilisation. Companies like Amazon and Google are not going to move all their stuff onto a more expensive centralised structure to build a web3, it's ludicrous. That's not the future to me.


Metamask and opensea falsely claiming decentralization doesn't automatically make ETH centralized. Maybe I've missed it, but what exactly are you saying made ETH centralized?

Vitalik and his "master node"? The ICO? The Eth held by the foundation? Centralized projects using the ETH layer to run scams?

And for the time being Ethereum is expensive, but Ethereum has shown it is capable of development so there is a very good chance that it will eventually become economically viable for companies to eventually make the move over.

Also every smartphone is a computer. So yes, being Turing complete is still a huge advantage.

Griffith

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8776
  • .......
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9287 on: February 06, 2023, 06:50:28 AM »
I bought Eth in 2015, before it was called ICO we referred to it as premined or let's just settle on preminted. Exactly what it is.  You can call it whatever you want.

I've explained why "old tech" is used in previous posts. Nfts, smart contracts, Web 3 is being touted now. Here's your issue with Eth, (and you refuse to acknowledge its centralisation aspect.) A database is way more efficient for centrilisation. Companies like Amazon and Google are not going to move all their stuff onto a more expensive centralised structure to build a web3, it's ludicrous. That's not the future to me.

The future is 8 billion people running the 21st century economy on their mobile devices via a decentrilised and secure baselayer that has hardened money. I'm betting on billions of people owning mobile devices  and not computers.


Read again what I wrote about Eth con artists with their words "old tech" and "decentrilised" both opensea and metamask are masquerading as decentrilised products. It's there for you to read in the quote.

The original quote was predicting a price of 100k eth, at that price 3,200,000 is required to stake. Even  at current prices 50k is beyond reach for most first world participants, nevertheless the other 6 billion people who don't have access to financial services. Then it's staked via a centralised entity for most. No thanks.

It's ok, I'll keep the blinkers on and have been since purchasing btc at $200. Only difference between shitcoiners and early btc adopters is we are not looking for that 100x. We are not co-opted by money. So seeing a path forward where everyone can benefit from a "new technology" both equally and securely is more my range of scope.

BTW this is what co-opted by money looks like:

You want to call me misinformed, go for it. Time will tell. I'm not going to store my time and energy into a "centralised company" that's built on sand that resembles failing systems of old.

All stablecoins use Ethereum. Even VISA and Mastercard will be integrating use of stablecoins such as USDC which uses ETH.

This has huge potential for people in developing countries where they need to hedge against depreciation of their local currency and are unable/prohibited from buying hard currencies locally.

Several reserve banks have also done trials using Ethereum for their CBDC's.

And as you mentioned, there is DEFI, smart-contracts and NFT's which overwhelmingly use ETH.


Griffith

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8776
  • .......
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9288 on: February 06, 2023, 08:33:02 AM »
Visa Eyes High-Value USDC Settlement Payments on Ethereum

Payments giant Visa reportedly seeks to meet customer requests to convert digital assets into fiat payments, similar to how it converts foreign currencies.

“We’ve been testing how to actually accept settlement payments from issuers in USDC starting on Ethereum and paying out in USDC on Ethereum,” Cuy Sheffield, head of crypto at Visa, said during the StarkWare Sessions 2023 event in Tel Aviv. “So, these are large value settlement payments.”

He noted that the effort would clone foreign currency exchange executed on the card network’s payment platform.

“The same way that we can convert between dollars in euros on a cross-border transaction, we should be able to convert between digital tokenized dollars and traditional dollars,” he said.

Visa announced the use of USDC, a stablecoin backed by the US dollar, to settle a transaction with the network over Ethereum in March 2021.


https://blockworks.co/news/visa-eyes-high-value-usdc-settlement-payments-on-ethereum?nocache

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7836
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9289 on: February 06, 2023, 09:30:40 AM »
Nuke 1 - Binanace just said all USD bank transfers will be suspended on the 8th of Feb and resume in a few weeks when a new banking partner is established. 2018 6k to 3k Tether bank seizure vibes.

Leverage cascade on Jan alt gains incoming, or maybe even a 50% BTC nuke if it's more serious.

Market has actually gone up though since this got announced!


Nuke 2 - DCG and Genesis trading to sell assets. Winding down their loan book, so selling crypto



https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/02/06/bankrupt-lender-genesis-and-parent-dcg-reach-initial-agreement-with-main-creditors-source/?utm_campaign=coindesk_main&utm_content=editorial&utm_medium=social&utm_term=organic&utm_source=twitter

Griffith

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8776
  • .......
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9290 on: February 06, 2023, 09:38:33 AM »
Binanace just said all USD bank transfers will be suspended on the 8th of Feb and resume in a few weeks when a new banking partner is established.

Leverage cascade on Jan alt gains incoming, or maybe even a 50% BTC nuke if it's FTX vibes.

Market has actually gone up though since this got announced!

"We are temporarily suspending USD bank transfers as of February 8th," a Binance spokesperson said, noting just 0.01% of monthly active users use USD bank transfers. "Affected customers are being notified directly."

"In the interim, all other methods of buying and selling crypto remain unaffected, including bank transfer using one of the other fiat currencies supported by Binance (including euros), buying and selling crypto via credit card, debit card, Google Pay and Apple Pay and via our Binance P2P marketplace," the spokesperson added.

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7836
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9291 on: February 06, 2023, 09:50:30 AM »
"We are temporarily suspending USD bank transfers as of February 8th," a Binance spokesperson said, noting just 0.01% of monthly active users use USD bank transfers. "Affected customers are being notified directly."

"In the interim, all other methods of buying and selling crypto remain unaffected, including bank transfer using one of the other fiat currencies supported by Binance (including euros), buying and selling crypto via credit card, debit card, Google Pay and Apple Pay and via our Binance P2P marketplace," the spokesperson added.

I edited the post. It was the same announcement tether made in 2018. Turned out Law enforcement seized the bank then. If it's a repeat (maybe Silvergate or SBNY) then it would be serious.

blackpele

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9292 on: February 06, 2023, 01:40:18 PM »
You need to stop getting your Ethereum information through maxi only channels as it's made you horribly misinformed.

- ETH was never premined. There was an ICO,  pre launch you sent BTC and later received an ETH wallet and ETH. Then after launch you could mine ETH. Pre PoS all ETH came into existence through either mined BTC or mining ETH. The controversy is behind the Eth founders and foundation taking a percentage through the ICO, but those sending BTC for ETH knew this.

- The main reason BTC gets called old tech is because it isn't "Turing complete" and Ethereum is. Mathematically it's possible to do anything you can do on your computer on Ethereum. This hasn't really mattered in the last 14 years, but it should be obvious why this could be hugely advantageous in the future.

- Your points about Metamask and opensea are accurate, but those are products and about user choices. They are not ETH. People are free to make a choice about using them or not.

- You need 32 ETH not $3,200,000 in Eth to become a validator. That's just over $50k. Staking pools make it even cheaper. Also you don't need to worry about high energy costs and constantly upgrading mining equipment like you do with bitcoin. Running Eth validators is far simpler.

As I said, you need to take the maxi blinkers off and go look at things for yourself. And that doesn't mean you should go and buy Eth, but so you can start asking yourself why some maxi news sources are full of misleading statements and hypocrisy.

Flexacon could you please list some quality sources regarding crypto, thanks  :)

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7836
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9293 on: February 06, 2023, 02:25:17 PM »
Flexacon could you please list some quality sources regarding crypto, thanks  :)

I don't know if such things even exist. People putting information out are typically biased in some way, usually it's financially motivated. Some who can be a great source of information can also very biased because of bad blood that's happened in their crypto past.

Everyone also wants different things from crypto so this also further complicates things. People who are moral and right about things often make no money in crypto whilst scammers and their followers make millions. Which source is of more value there?

It might sound ridiculous, but your best source of information now might just be to use chatgpt. Google is also releasing it's version soon, so having the ability to cross reference responses will be an amazing resource.

Thin Lizzy

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18268
  • It’s all a fraud
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9294 on: February 06, 2023, 05:20:45 PM »
Cramer was waving the caution flag, so, you’re probably not gonna see a pullback in up-trending markets in the near future.

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4639
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9295 on: February 06, 2023, 05:49:49 PM »
Wow its great to see how sophisticated this discussion has become, evolving form Mr Anabolic's "but its vaporware" comments, to true discussions by people who understand the technology.

One comment from me - ETH is in my view very much an unregistered security. And it has a very serious risk of being restricted from be traded on any regulated exchange. There was a fund raising, for a "project" where the founders issued "tokens" in return for assets of value being transferred to them. That does not mean ETH would disappear, but it would be a massive blow, and a massive boon to Bitcoin if such enforcement really takes place.


obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6318
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9296 on: February 06, 2023, 11:17:32 PM »
Wow its great to see how sophisticated this discussion has become, evolving form Mr Anabolic's "but its vaporware" comments, to true discussions by people who understand the technology.

One comment from me - ETH is in my view very much an unregistered security. And it has a very serious risk of being restricted from be traded on any regulated exchange. There was a fund raising, for a "project" where the founders issued "tokens" in return for assets of value being transferred to them. That does not mean ETH would disappear, but it would be a massive blow, and a massive boon to Bitcoin if such enforcement really takes place.
https://isethereumasecurity.com/

Prong #2:

Hard to suggest there is an “issuer” or “promoter” at this point in Ethereum.
Staking does not have horizontal commonality in relation to profits.
Staking does have some horizontal commonality in relation to other validators, but they are not an issuer/promoter.
Horziontal commonality in efforts is negated by the factor that the profits and loses are solely based on your own validators performance and actions.
Your validator can be taken to another network is not locked in to any type of commonality.
Staking does not have strong vertical commonality with the issuer.
There is only broad vertical commonality, if you believe what is being sold is blockspace, and that the blockspace is owned by developers who publish code, but do not run the network.

Prong #3:

There is an expectation of profits.
Those profits are only derived from your own ability to maintain a reliable validator.
The maintenance of a machine performing network validation has been shown to be a key managerial effort in the past.
You are selling uptime and validation, and not blockspace, as your validator could connect to another PoS network, or fork, with other validators and do the same action.
This would mean finding Ethereum Proof-of-Stake to not be a security.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6318
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9297 on: February 06, 2023, 11:21:43 PM »
Michael Saylor bought Bitcoin because he expects the value to go up and thereby realize a profit.

gib bought Bitcoin for the same reason.

Does that make Bitcoin a security? Are Michael Saylor or gib doing work to process transactions and secure the network? Or could they be profiting from the work of others - the miners securing the BTC network and the developers adding features?

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4639
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9298 on: February 07, 2023, 04:39:56 AM »
https://isethereumasecurity.com/

Prong #2:

Hard to suggest there is an “issuer” or “promoter” at this point in Ethereum.
Staking does not have horizontal commonality in relation to profits.
Staking does have some horizontal commonality in relation to other validators, but they are not an issuer/promoter.
Horziontal commonality in efforts is negated by the factor that the profits and loses are solely based on your own validators performance and actions.
Your validator can be taken to another network is not locked in to any type of commonality.
Staking does not have strong vertical commonality with the issuer.
There is only broad vertical commonality, if you believe what is being sold is blockspace, and that the blockspace is owned by developers who publish code, but do not run the network.

Prong #3:

There is an expectation of profits.
Those profits are only derived from your own ability to maintain a reliable validator.
The maintenance of a machine performing network validation has been shown to be a key managerial effort in the past.
You are selling uptime and validation, and not blockspace, as your validator could connect to another PoS network, or fork, with other validators and do the same action.
This would mean finding Ethereum Proof-of-Stake to not be a security.

This history of Eth cannot be reversed. Same with Ripple. Eth when it was launched obviously had a promoter and founder who received immediate value for a sale of shares in the venture, with the shares being represented by eth tokens. Under a strict application of SEC rules, they really are screwed. As a result, it may very will likely lead to the SEC coming after Vitalk and others, and banning regulated exchanges from trading eth "tokens" (essentially an unregistered security).

Flexacon

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7836
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #9299 on: February 07, 2023, 07:58:24 AM »
This history of Eth cannot be reversed. Same with Ripple. Eth when it was launched obviously had a promoter and founder who received immediate value for a sale of shares in the venture, with the shares being represented by eth tokens. Under a strict application of SEC rules, they really are screwed. As a result, it may very will likely lead to the SEC coming after Vitalk and others, and banning regulated exchanges from trading eth "tokens" (essentially an unregistered security).

The SEC ruled the EOS ICO as an unregistered token sale and all it did was fine them. The final product was not deemed a security and EOS tokens are still trading.

ETH would have an even better case than EOS if the SEC came after them for their ICO. At worst they can just accept the SEC fine without any admissions of guilt and carry on with business just like EOS.

EOS misled investors during their ICO and all it got was a fine. No one was misled during the ETH ICO.

Also as recently as December 2022 the CFTC has been referring to ETH as a commodity in legal hearings.