Conservative? Not these guys.

[Decker]

In the United States, conservatism is a philosophy without a party.

Take Ronald Reagan, considered the patron saint of late 20th century conservatism. Coupled with extravagant military spending, Reagan's tax cuts for wealthy individuals and corporations increased the national debt from $700 billion to $3 trillion, transforming the U.S. into the world's biggest debtor nation. Under Reagan, William Voegeli wrote in The Los Angeles Times in 2007, "government did nothing but expand. In 1981, the federal government spent $678 billion; in 1989 it spent $1.144 trillion. Factoring out inflation, that was an increase of 19% in real spending. Republicans never expected that Reagan would leave office with a 'federal establishment' one-fifth larger than when he arrived."

George W. Bush campaigned as a "compassionate conservative," but conservatism was as absent from his governance as compassion. He has increased the federal deficit from $3.3 to $5.9 trillion. Add in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq--estimated at $2.4 trillion as of 2007--and he will have put the country a staggering $5 trillion deeper into the hole. He hired 180,000 federal employees for a new cabinet-level department, Homeland Security, all to make you take off your shoes at the airport.

Conservative? Not these guys.

Source - Ted Rall

[tonymctones]

Ill agree that he has gone against some core conservative principles but you must also look at the times and situations that took place during his presidency...obama campaigned as a utopian savior i think he will have a hard time living up to that as well.

[OzmO]

If you are a true conservative you have to really be scratching your head.

It seems like its more lip service than anything. 

[240 is Back]

Ill agree that he has gone against some core conservative principles but you must also look at the times and situations that took place during his presidency...obama campaigned as a utopian savior i think he will have a hard time living up to that as well.

Translation:  It's not Bush's fault he chose to invade iraq, and Obama sucks worse so I dont care what Bush did.

[tonymctones]

If you are a true conservative you have to really be scratching your head.

It seems like its more lip service than anything. 

heres the deal though, again he has gone against some conservative core values however if you really think that we are worse off with the patriot act in place i think your ignorant, even though i think its unconstitutional i also think in these times it is necessary. Ppl going after homeland security is stupid of course it seems frivalous when we arent being attacked but guess what maybe thats why we arent being attacked. No child left behind bail outs etc...are things that i take as wrong and directly flying in the face of conservative priniciples.

[tonymctones]

Translation:  It's not Bush's fault he chose to invade iraq, and Obama sucks worse so I dont care what Bush did.

LOL at least i admit bushs faults you seem to turn a blind eye and completely deny your saviors. I never said it wasnt bush's fault but you morons think it was a easy decision and that you or any other would have done a better job is laughable...oh I care what bush did i hope obama does well but doesnt get half of his crazy lefty agenda accomplished although it seems like his promises have been put off for at least a little while anyway.

[tonymctones]

Translation:  It's not Bush's fault he chose to invade iraq, and Obama sucks worse so I dont care what Bush did.

LOL you should talk you spammed the board for weeks about false and ignorant ass shit about palin but didnt start one thread condemming obama for wright or any of the other retarded shit he did...and you wonder why we call him your savior.

[OzmO]

heres the deal though, again he has gone against some conservative core values however if you really think that we are worse off with the patriot act in place i think your ignorant, even though i think its unconstitutional i also think in these times it is necessary. Ppl going after homeland security is stupid of course it seems frivalous when we arent being attacked but guess what maybe thats why we arent being attacked. No child left behind bail outs etc...are things that i take as wrong and directly flying in the face of conservative priniciples.

How did the patriot act come into this?

The biggest thing I'm concerned about is wire-tapping without a judge.  I'm not as versed on the details of the patriot act to comment either way.

I think 3 million people losing their jobs might be too much if we don't bail out the Big 3, even though i am of the opinion NOT to bail them out.

Schools need to be restructured a bit and more money needs to go to education.   The root of the problem is the education of parents and the break down of the family unit combined with popular culture in the media that doesn't promote getting good grades and working towards an education.   I think the money is better spent in school than trying to change a culture.

Homeland security is needed even if we aren't attacked.  9/11 proved that.

[Decker]

Ill agree that he has gone against some core conservative principles but you must also look at the times and situations that took place during his presidency...obama campaigned as a utopian savior i think he will have a hard time living up to that as well.

This 'utopian savior' nonsense should die a horrible death.  It's the rightwing's desperate attempt to besmirch the man before he's even done a thing as president.

What the hell is so utopian about rebuilding this country's infrastructure like Obama is proposing?

Did the word 'infrastructure' cross the lips of Bush or any Bush adiminstration official?

It's been crumbling down around our ears yet nothing was done.

But I'll be goddammed if we aren't spending a trillion dollars in Iraq so Bush's business buddies can rape the national treasury.

I guess roads, bridges and schools just aren't that important to true-blue american politicians.

It's nice to know that Baghdad has better schools and healthcare before we do.  On our dime, no less.

[tonymctones]

This 'utopian savior' nonsense should die a horrible death.  It's the rightwing's desperate attempt to besmirch the man before he's even done a thing as president.

What the hell is so utopian about rebuilding this country's infrastructure like Obama is proposing?

Did the word 'infrastructure' cross the lips of Bush or any Bush adiminstration official?

It's been crumbling down around our ears yet nothing was done.

But I'll be goddammed if we aren't spending a trillion dollars in Iraq so Bush's business buddies can rape the national treasury.

I guess roads, bridges and schools just aren't that important to true-blue american politicians.

It's nice to know that Baghdad has better schools and healthcare before we do.  On our dime, no less.

LOL dude just another thread or two ago you where ragging on palin and mccain where you not? but all of a sudden we cant touch barry?

the infrastructure thing didnt really come apart of any policy until after he was elected not before...this is more a way to stir the economy than anything else.

You really think that the main reason we are in iraq is b/c bush wanted to make his buddies rich?

[tonymctones]

How did the patriot act come into this?

The biggest thing I'm concerned about is wire-tapping without a judge.  I'm not as versed on the details of the patriot act to comment either way.

I think 3 million people losing their jobs might be too much if we don't bail out the Big 3, even though i am of the opinion NOT to bail them out.

Schools need to be restructured a bit and more money needs to go to education.   The root of the problem is the education of parents and the break down of the family unit combined with popular culture in the media that doesn't promote getting good grades and working towards an education.   I think the money is better spent in school than trying to change a culture.

Homeland security is needed even if we aren't attacked.  9/11 proved that.

the patriot act came into this b/c it flies against conservative principles...schools to need to be restructured and better funded but basing that funding on test scores only causes teachers to teach for that test and not much else.

Why not let them simply declare bankruptcy? I might be missing something but wouldnt that help the situation? who here hasnt flown with a bankrupt airline? did it seem much different then flying with a airline that wasnt bankrupt?

[240 is Back]

You really think that the main reason we are in iraq is b/c bush wanted to make his buddies rich?

it's what happened.

haliburton made billions of dollars, borrowed from the chinese under our grandparents' names.

4200 soldiers died, so that Iraq could INSIST that we GTFO of their country.

[tonymctones]

it's what happened.

haliburton made billions of dollars, borrowed from the chinese under our grandparents' names.

4200 soldiers died, so that Iraq could INSIST that we GTFO of their country.

yes and even your savior obama who campaigned on getting out is now saying we will stay longer...maybe bush knew something the rest of us didnt?

and that wasnt my question my question was does HE not you really think thats why we went into iraq

[Decker]

LOL dude just another thread or two ago you where ragging on palin and mccain where you not? but all of a sudden we cant touch barry?

the infrastructure thing didnt really come apart of any policy until after he was elected not before...this is more a way to stir the economy than anything else.

You really think that the main reason we are in iraq is b/c bush wanted to make his buddies rich?

I am not a relativist.  Obama is much more articulate and intelligent than Festus Withers and his sidekick Kitty the town strumpet.  His platform was superior to theirs.

Fiscal

"The cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and states of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on ... If Washington were serious about honest tax relief in this country, we'd see an effort to reduce our national debt by returning to responsible fiscal policies." - Barack Obama, Speech in the U.S. Senate, March 13, 2006
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

When 9 billion dollars stored in Iraq just disappears, I would say that one of the major reasons we went to war was to enrich the elite class.

This is how these people operate.  They get their fucking hooks into lucrative gov. contracts, provide substandard, if any, services/products and then overcharge the gov. to the hilt.  That's how the Bush family built their empire.

Did you see the recent revelation that foodstuffs provided by KBR was tainted with remains...

[Decker]

yes and even your savior obama who campaigned on getting out is now saying we will stay longer...maybe bush knew something the rest of us didnt?

and that wasnt my question my question was does HE not you really think thats why we went into iraq

And maybe Bush apologists will say anything to try and salvage the mass murderer's reputation.

Re Iraq, why do you think that the US installed immediately a free market system that sold off Iraqi national assets to all comers?

Is it b/c unfettered capitalism is just so darn good? Or was it done to give financial elites more investment opportunities, i.e., fucking locusts on a crop?

[tonymctones]

And maybe Bush apologists will say anything to try and salvage the mass murderer's reputation.

Re Iraq, why do you think that the US installed immediately a free market system that sold off Iraqi national assets to all comers?

Is it b/c unfettered capitalism is just so darn good? Or was it done to give financial elites more investment opportunities, i.e., fucking locusts on a crop?

LOL dude im not apologizing for his mistakes again you ppl seem to think that you either defend bush all together or attack him all together. Ive said in this thread go back and read he has done things i dont like. What do you think these ppl where better off when saddam was in power? LOL dude you say things like iraq doesnt benefit from any of this and its all one sided...where we supposed to just eliminate saddam and then let them sit there and not help them? I think going in was a mistake ive said it before however that being said we are in and need what we can to help.

[Decker]

LOL dude im not apologizing for his mistakes again you ppl seem to think that you either defend bush all together or attack him all together. Ive said in this thread go back and read he has done things i dont like. What do you think these ppl where better off when saddam was in power? LOL dude you say things like iraq doesnt benefit from any of this and its all one sided...where we supposed to just eliminate saddam and then let them sit there and not help them? I think going in was a mistake ive said it before however that being said we are in and need what we can to help.

The Iraq disaster was a mistake from its inception.  I don't give two shits how many 'good' things we do in Iraq.  Those 150,000 people are still dead.

It wasn't in the US's power to get rid of Hussein.  That was only accomplished by the lawless Bush administration.

Lipstick on a pig, my friend.

[tonymctones]

The Iraq disaster was a mistake from its inception.  I don't give two shits how many 'good' things we do in Iraq.  Those 150,000 people are still dead.

It wasn't in the US's power to get rid of Hussein.  That was only accomplished by the lawless Bush administration.

Lipstick on a pig, my friend.

misinformation my friend led us in...now that we are in we have to do right...you dont go into a fight and expect ppl not to get killed...you place all your blame on bush fine its your opinion you should however place blame on everybody else that voted for the war, clinton for not stopping obl when he had a chance as well.

[Decker]

misinformation my friend led us in...now that we are in we have to do right...you dont go into a fight and expect ppl not to get killed...you place all your blame on bush fine its your opinion you should however place blame on everybody else that voted for the war, clinton for not stopping obl when he had a chance as well.

Which misinformation was that?

Was it the up-to-the=minute reports of the WMD inspectors on the ground in Iraq FINDING NOTHING.

Or was that misinformation the 10 year old reports that concluded Iraq may have a stockpile of chemical weapons.

Which misinformation fits the pro-war crowd's agenda?

There again with "blame everybody else" crap.

No!

It was Bush and Bush alone that beat the drum for war, who fabricated white papers to show an Iraqi threat, who lied repeatedly to the US and Congress re Iraq's ties to AQ and its current possession of WMDs and nukes.

Stop pretending that stuff never happened.

You do realize that consent gained through lies is no consent at all?

[tonymctones]

Which misinformation was that?

Was it the up-to-the=minute reports of the WMD inspectors on the ground in Iraq FINDING NOTHING.

Or was that misinformation the 10 year old reports that concluded Iraq may have a stockpile of chemical weapons.

Which misinformation fits the pro-war crowd's agenda?

There again with "blame everybody else" crap.

No!

It was Bush and Bush alone that beat the drum for war, who fabricated white papers to show an Iraqi threat, who lied repeatedly to the US and Congress re Iraq's ties to AQ and its current possession of WMDs and nukes.

Stop pretending that stuff never happened.

You do realize that consent gained through lies is no consent at all?

LOL your a fuking retard do you not remember after 9/11 the entire country was foaming at the mouth jackass...

you and 240 operate under the assumption that you have the same knowledge that the president has you should know that isnt true just look at obama and his plan for removing troops which got delayed as soon as he got a briefing on the situation in iraq.

Im not saying that bush doesnt get blamed but to say that others arent copable for any actions they did that led to the events that transpired is ignorant.

[big L dawg]

LOL you should talk you spammed the board for weeks about false and ignorant ass shit about palin but didnt start one thread condemming obama for wright or any of the other retarded shit he did...and you wonder why we call him your savior.

your right we don't need to 240 to post shit to know how ignorant Palin is.

[Decker]

LOL your a fuking retard do you not remember after 9/11 the entire country was foaming at the mouth jackass...

you and 240 operate under the assumption that you have the same knowledge that the president has you should know that isnt true just look at obama and his plan for removing troops which got delayed as soon as he got a briefing on the situation in iraq.

Im not saying that bush doesnt get blamed but to say that others arent copable for any actions they did that led to the events that transpired is ignorant.

No offense Tony but you are one big fuckin pain in the ass.  I tire of trying to make sense of the uninformed garbage you post.

Now it's ghosts of 9/11 (which Iraq had zero to do with) and then it's Obama's view on Iraq and then it's back to share the blame for the mistake that isn't really a mistake b/c we're doing good things to the surviving Iraqis.

The attention span of today's american is frustrating as hell.  Change the fucking channel or pick up a book.

[tonymctones]

No offense Tony but you are one big fuckin pain in the ass.  I tire of trying to make sense of the uninformed garbage you post.

Now it's ghosts of 9/11 (which Iraq had zero to do with) and then it's Obama's view on Iraq and then it's back to share the blame for the mistake that isn't really a mistake b/c we're doing good things to the surviving Iraqis.

The attention span of today's american is frustrating as hell.  Change the fucking channel or pick up a book.

maybe i didnt explain myself well enough i think your problem is you dont follow trains of thought very well...if clinton had apprehended obl it could have possibly put a kink in al quedas plans for 9/11 which led to the invasion of Iraq did it not?

I was using obamas views on iraq to show your ignorant ass that the general public is not previe to everything the president knows...I.E. his position change on pulling troops out after his briefing on Iraq after he was elected...you think he was lying to all america when he was campaigning or he got new info that made him change his mind?

[Decker]

maybe i didnt explain myself well enough i think your problem is you dont follow trains of thought very well...if clinton had apprehended obl it could have possibly put a kink in al quedas plans for 9/11 which led to the invasion of Iraq did it not?

No.  9/11 did not lead to the invasion of Iraq.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

The invasion of Iraq was a Bush creation.

Do you see that. Do you understand that?

I was using obamas views on iraq to show your ignorant ass that the general public is not previe to everything the president knows...I.E. his position change on pulling troops out after his briefing on Iraq after he was elected...you think he was lying to all america when he was campaigning or he got new info that made him change his mind?

Jesus fuckin christ you argue just like Brixton Bulldong.

When you're cornered out comes the SECRET EVIDENCE.

How does Obama's proposed management of current troop levels in Iraq change the fact that Bush lied, manufactured evidence and ordered the invasion himself?  I.e., the entire Iraq enterprise is crime from its inception...a crime perpetrated by the Bush administration and no other.

[tonymctones]

No.  9/11 did not lead to the invasion of Iraq.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

The invasion of Iraq was a Bush creation.

Do you see that. Do you understand that?
Jesus fuckin christ you argue just like Brixton Bulldong.

When you're cornered out comes the SECRET EVIDENCE.

How does Obama's proposed management of current troop levels in Iraq change the fact that Bush lied, manufactured evidence and ordered the invasion himself?  I.e., the entire Iraq enterprise is crime from its inception...a crime perpetrated by the Bush administration and no other.

LOL your a fuking idiot so if 9/11 didnt happen we would have still invaded iraq?

Answer the question do you think obama lied to all of america when he told them his expectations in removing from iraq or do you think he got filled in on something when he got briefed?