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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on November 29, 2012, 08:36:27 PM
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Attended a really good event tonight and there was a national security debate between former Congresswoman and DA Liz Holtzman and former Bush Admn Advisor Jay Lefkowitz, Esq. who is now partner at a huge law firm Kirkland Ellis. He was advisor to W after 9/11
Want to know why I think most self described "liberals" are completely full of S$%?
Well Ms. Holtsman tried to make the argument that waterboarding under the Bush/Cheney Admn was and is worse than Extra-judicial Drone Strikes wo any guidelines or oversight under the Obama Admn that has resulted in deaths of many civilians.
Lets' see - if its me what do i pick? Water pored over my head to simulate drowning but leaving no permanent disfigurement or injury or being blown to smitherines w/o so much as a warrant or court order, let alone even a guilty conviction in abstentia even w/o a jury?
hhhmmm really hard choice there. lol!!!!
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i'm fine if we waterboard - IF we are willing to remove ourselves from geneva convention.
looks weak to agree to it then not follow. Just give geneva the finger.
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i'm fine if we waterboard - IF we are willing to remove ourselves from geneva convention.
looks weak to agree to it then not follow. Just give geneva the finger.
Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists not in uniform or fighting for a nation state.
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Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists not in uniform or fighting for a nation state.
it gets a little shady there... if a guy isn't in uniform, we're allowed to waterboard him? geneva doesn't apply to occupied territories?
I dunno man...
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it gets a little shady there... if a guy isn't in uniform, we're allowed to waterboard him? geneva doesn't apply to occupied territories?
I dunno man...
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this just in:
everyone is fulla shit and just wants piles of cash and hot sex
trick is to get something back for all the money gov spends
liek trained MD and hospitals and railsroads
not just drump money down green corp drain
also any patents by green corps or gov sponsored science should be owned by the people, hell no gov finance research and you kep the patent HELL NO
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Professional Profile
Jay Lefkowitz is a senior litigation partner in the New York City office of Kirkland & Ellis LLP and a member of the Firm's Worldwide Management Committee. He is also an adjunct professor of Administrative Law at Columbia Law School. Jay has acted as lead trial and appellate counsel on cases (both individual and class) in a wide variety of substantive areas, including securities, shareholder derivative, antitrust, intellectual property, and breach of contract, as well as in several white collar defense matters. He also has conducted numerous internal investigations for public companies and audit committees. He represents investment banks, hedge funds, pharmaceutical companies, and telecommunications companies in litigation and in proceedings before the DOJ, SEC, FINRA, FCC, FDA and various State Attorneys General.
Jay has had a distinguished career in public service. He served from 2005-2009 as the United States' Special Envoy on Human Rights in North Korea. From 2001-2003, Jay served in the White House as Deputy Assistant to President Bush for Domestic Policy and as General Counsel in the Office of Management and Budget. Earlier in his career, he served in the White House as Director of Cabinet Affairs and Deputy Executive Secretary to the Domestic Policy Council for President George H. W. Bush.
Jay's work as a lawyer and diplomat has been featured in many newspapers and magazines throughout the world. He has been profiled in The Washington Post, "A Hard-Nosed Litigator Becomes Bush's Policy Point Man;" Global Forensics, "Subprime Crisis Stirring Up New Wave of Litigation;" The Washington Post, "What Ever Happened to Jay Lefkowitz?;" The American Lawyer, "Blackboard Jungle;" The National Law Journal, "Republican Connected and Rising;" Columbia College Today, "Shuttle Diplomat;" Aish.com, "Kosher in the White House;" LawyersandSettlements.co m, "Star Litigator Jay Lefkowitz Goes Pro Bono in California School Reform Case;" and The New York Sun, "Heroic Lefkowitz’s Korea Mission."
Jay has served as lead counsel for Fannie Mae, General Motors, Loral Space & Communications, News Corporation, Northwest Airlines, Qwest Communications Corporation, Tenet Healthcare Corporation, Teva Pharmaceuticals, Time Warner, UBS Warburg, Verizon Wireless, and many hedge funds and private equity firms.
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this just in:
everyone is fulla shit and just wants piles of cash and hot sex
trick is to get something back for all the money gov spends
liek trained MD and hospitals and railsroads
not just drump money down green corp drain
also any patents by green corps or gov sponsored science should be owned by the people, hell no gov finance research and you kep the patent HELL NO
Railroads are socialism.
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A President with a Nobel Peace Prize and a kill list?
I dunno man...
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A President with a Nobel Peace Prize and a kill list?
I dunno man...
Funny how Ms. Holtzman does not see the irony in that an instead focuses of Bush / Cheney
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Funny how Ms. Holtzman does not see the irony in that an instead focuses of Bush / Cheney
One is torture the other is a takeout aka hit.
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Can I chose that both are cowardly? One might argue that drones are more cowardly.
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One is torture the other is a takeout aka hit.
LOL!!!! Only a delusional left wing crack pot could argue that extra judicial killings are not as bad as waterboarding.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/iraq-war-on-terror/topsecretamerica/top-cia-official-obama-changed-virtually-none-of-bushs-controversial-programs
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LOL!!!! Only a delusional left wing crack pot could argue that extra judicial killings are not as bad as waterboarding.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/iraq-war-on-terror/topsecretamerica/top-cia-official-obama-changed-virtually-none-of-bushs-controversial-programs
Only a sad person would make his own interpetation to fit his weird world.
I layed out the differences between the 2 i didnt rank them on some list on good or bad.
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Only a sad person would make his own interpetation to fit his weird world.
I layed out the differences between the 2 i didnt rank them on some list on good or bad.
Yeah there is a difference - one you are fine 5 minutes later - the other you are in for a permanent dirt nap.
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Yeah there is a difference - one you are fine 5 minutes later - the other you are in for a permanent dirt nap.
Same thing can be said of ripping peoples nails off and a bullet.
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Same thing can be said of ripping peoples nails off and a bullet.
We didnt do disfigurement as a policy. Big difference
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We didnt do disfigurement as a policy. Big difference
What is the point of this thread?
Do you want Obama to stop killing terrorists?
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What is the point of this thread?
Do you want Obama to stop killing terrorists?
I want to the left to STFU about blaming Bush Cheney for things they cheer on that their messiah and iconic God King does.
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I want to the left to STFU about blaming Bush Cheney for things they cheer on that their messiah and iconic God King does.
And they want you too STFU about complaining for things Obama is doing when his republican counter parts would wreck the country again if given the chance.
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Have you been waterboarded recently?
How regardless of dresscode how is it not torture if being done against your permission?
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Have you been waterboarded recently?
How regardless of dresscode how is it not torture if being done against your permission?
Same can be said of sleep deprivation, blasting loud music 24 7, etc.
When I think of torture of think of people hung off the wall from chains being poked w hot pokers, bashed w clubs, etc
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Same can be said of sleep deprivation, blasting loud music 24 7, etc.
When I think of torture of think of people hung off the wall from chains being poked w hot pokers, bashed w clubs, etc
So water boarding is not torture to you?
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Same can be said of sleep deprivation, blasting loud music 24 7, etc.
When I think of torture of think of people hung off the wall from chains being poked w hot pokers, bashed w clubs, etc
so you are an a la carte sadist provided of course that you and yours are not on the menu
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so you are an a la carte sadist provided of course that you and yours are not on the menu
Most things that go on in Marine Boot Camp would be considered torture.
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And they want you too STFU about complaining for things Obama is doing when his republican counter parts would wreck the country again if given the chance.
mutha ... effin... right...
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mutha ... effin... right...
What did the repubs do to crash the nation?
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Most things that go on in Marine Boot Camp would be considered torture.
I though the marines gave their voluntary aduld consent / permission when they joined up.
please tell me if this not so.
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What did the repubs do to crash the nation?
Stole from the nation be running record deficits while giving tax breaks to rich.
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Stole from the nation be running record deficits while giving tax breaks to rich.
So what did the Democrats do from 2006 - 2010 to correct any of that when they controlled the congress?
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Most things that go on in Marine Boot Camp would be considered torture.
I though the marines gave their voluntary adult consent / permission when they joined up.
please tell me if this not so.
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I though the marines gave their voluntary adult consent / permission when they joined up.
please tell me if this not so.
No such thing as consenting to have crimes committed against you.
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No such thing as consenting to have crimes committed against you.
but how do know who committed the crime
isnt that the job of the courts?
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So what did the Democrats do from 2006 - 2010 to correct any of that when they controlled the congress?
Two wrongs dont make a right.
There are no saints here only sinners.
But now in the present dem wants to raise taxes on rich and lower it for the middle-class where repub wants to do the reverse.
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torture is unnecessary because it is almost always ineffective.
drone strikes are almost always effective and completely necessary when you take into account that we are often targeting individuals who are located in regions that we couldnt access by ground without tipping them off as to our approach and letting them get away.
one is cruel without good reason (usually doesnt result in evidence), the other is "cruel" with very good reason (usually does result in death of militant)
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Attended a really good event tonight and there was a national security debate between former Congresswoman and DA Liz Holtzman and former Bush Admn Advisor Jay Lefkowitz, Esq. who is now partner at a huge law firm Kirkland Ellis. He was advisor to W after 9/11
Want to know why I think most self described "liberals" are completely full of S$%?
Well Ms. Holtsman tried to make the argument that waterboarding under the Bush/Cheney Admn was and is worse than Extra-judicial Drone Strikes wo any guidelines or oversight under the Obama Admn that has resulted in deaths of many civilians.
Lets' see - if its me what do i pick? Water pored over my head to simulate drowning but leaving no permanent disfigurement or injury or being blown to smitherines w/o so much as a warrant or court order, let alone even a guilty conviction in abstentia even w/o a jury?
hhhmmm really hard choice there. lol!!!!
XXXXXXXX
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torture is unnecessary because it is almost always ineffective.
drone strikes are almost always effective and completely necessary when you take into account that we are often targeting individuals who are located in regions that we couldnt access by ground without tipping them off as to our approach and letting them get away.
one is cruel without good reason (usually doesnt result in evidence), the other is "cruel" with very good reason (usually does result in death of militant)
This!!
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Well Ms. Holtsman tried to make the argument that waterboarding under the Bush/Cheney Admn was and is worse than Extra-judicial Drone Strikes wo any guidelines or oversight under the Obama Admn that has resulted in deaths of many civilians.
What was her argument?
Lets' see - if its me what do i pick? Water pored over my head to simulate drowning but leaving no permanent disfigurement or injury or being blown to smitherines w/o so much as a warrant or court order, let alone even a guilty conviction in abstentia even w/o a jury?
hhhmmm really hard choice there. lol!!!!
All you've said here is something to the effect of, 'I disagree with Holtsman's conclusion because I think it is ridiculous. BOOOOO!!' But this is a very uninteresting thing to say -- everybody does it all the time and it doesn't reveal much other than certain psychological facts about the speaker -- and as a lawyer you ought to know it is the reasoning that leads to people's conclusions that we ought to be interested in.
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What did the repubs do to crash the nation?
I think some repubs openly screamed "shut it down" about the US govt.
That's pretty much the definition of crashing the nation.
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U.S. Drone Strikes Are Causing Child Casualties: Video and Report
Posted: 12/01/2012 4:06 pm
During my recent trip to Pakistan as part of our upcoming documentary film, Drones Exposed, I was struck most by the stories told to me by children who had experienced a U.S. drone strike firsthand. The impact of America’s drone war in the likes of Pakistan and Yemen will linger on, especially for the loved ones of the 178 children killed in those countries by U.S. drone strikes.
War Costs’ latest video (with accompanying report) brings attention to the children who have died as a result of drone strikes. The video names some of the children who perished in these strikes, and points out the obfuscation tactics of American officials who will not own up to the significant amount of civilian casualties that have occurred due to this legally- and morally-dubious policy.
In addition to the video, War Costs offers this report detailing the effects of drone strikes on children. The findings come mainly from the diligent investigative reporting of TBIJ and the groundbreaking reports on the impact of drone strikes by Stanford and New York University researchers (Living Under Drones: Death, Injury and Trauma to Civilians from US Drone Practices in Pakistan) and researchers at Columbia University (The Civilian Impact of Drones: Unexamined Costs, Unanswered Questions).
In an effort to compel answers about why these innocent civilians have died without acknowledgement or explanation from the U.S. government, War Costs is calling on the U.S. House of Representatives to debate and pass Rep. Dennis Kucinich's bill that calls for more transparency regarding U.S. drone strike policy.
For more on War Costs’ upcoming drones film, visit our website, or at Facebook and Twitter.
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"Quote from: 333386 on 30-11-2012, 18:09:19
No such thing as consenting to have crimes committed against you. "
but how do know who committed the crime
isnt that the job of the courts?
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"Quote from: 333386 on 30-11-2012, 18:09:19
No such thing as consenting to have crimes committed against you. "
but how do know who committed the crime
isnt that the job of the courts?
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Not sure what you are asking.
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U.S. Drone Strikes Are Causing Child Casualties: Video and Report
Posted: 12/01/2012 4:06 pm
During my recent trip to Pakistan as part of our upcoming documentary film, Drones Exposed, I was struck most by the stories told to me by children who had experienced a U.S. drone strike firsthand. The impact of America’s drone war in the likes of Pakistan and Yemen will linger on, especially for the loved ones of the 178 children killed in those countries by U.S. drone strikes.
War Costs’ latest video (with accompanying report) brings attention to the children who have died as a result of drone strikes. The video names some of the children who perished in these strikes, and points out the obfuscation tactics of American officials who will not own up to the significant amount of civilian casualties that have occurred due to this legally- and morally-dubious policy.
In addition to the video, War Costs offers this report detailing the effects of drone strikes on children. The findings come mainly from the diligent investigative reporting of TBIJ and the groundbreaking reports on the impact of drone strikes by Stanford and New York University researchers (Living Under Drones: Death, Injury and Trauma to Civilians from US Drone Practices in Pakistan) and researchers at Columbia University (The Civilian Impact of Drones: Unexamined Costs, Unanswered Questions).
In an effort to compel answers about why these innocent civilians have died without acknowledgement or explanation from the U.S. government, War Costs is calling on the U.S. House of Representatives to debate and pass Rep. Dennis Kucinich's bill that calls for more transparency regarding U.S. drone strike policy.
For more on War Costs’ upcoming drones film, visit our website, or at Facebook and Twitter.
So you dont like casualties?
Then dont start wars and then blame others for finishing your job because you are a failure.
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Not sure what you are asking.
I thought you were a lawyer, are you not able to follow the argument you set up?
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I thought you were a lawyer, are you not able to follow the argument you set up?
For example - if I tell you go ahead shoot me - and you follow through - you do not have a valid argument that I consented to it.
That was my point.
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Quote from: B_B_C on 30-11-2012, 16:47:26
Have you been waterboarded recently?
How regardless of dresscode how is it not torture if being done against your permission?
Quote from: 333386 on 30-11-2012, 16:51:35
Same can be said of sleep deprivation, blasting loud music 24 7, etc.
When I think of torture of think of people hung off the wall from chains being poked w hot pokers, bashed w clubs, etc
Quote from: B_B_C on 30-11-2012, 17:07:49
so you are an a la carte sadist provided of course that you and yours are not on the menu
Quote from: 333386 on 30-11-2012, 17:09:34
Most things that go on in Marine Boot Camp would be considered torture.
Quote from: B_B_C on 30-11-2012, 18:08:31
I though the marines gave their voluntary adult consent / permission when they joined up.
please tell me if this not so.
Quote from: 333386 on 30-11-2012, 18:09:19
No such thing as consenting to have crimes committed against you.
Quote from: B_B_C on 03-12-2012, 16:21:48
but how do know who committed the crime
isnt that the job of the courts?
Quote from: 333386 on Today at 13:23:40
Not sure what you are asking.
For example - if I tell you go ahead shoot me - and you follow through - you do not have a valid argument that I consented to it.
That was my point.
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No such thing as consenting to have crimes committed against you.
An action can be a crime in some circumstances but not in others. It's a crime for someone to operate on me and remove a kidney without my consent. But it's not a crime if I consent to donate a kidney. You're a lawyer, you should know that the quintessential element of whether a crime has been committed is mens rea.