Author Topic: Hold Your Heads Up  (Read 1909 times)

Benny B

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Hold Your Heads Up
« on: September 09, 2008, 05:33:18 AM »
September 9, 2008
Hold Your Heads Up
By BOB HERBERT

Ignorance must really be bliss. How else, over so many years, could the G.O.P. get away with ridiculing all things liberal?

Troglodytes on the right are no respecters of reality. They say the most absurd things and hardly anyone calls them on it. Evolution? Don’t you believe it. Global warming? A figment of the liberal imagination.

Liberals have been so cowed by the pummeling they’ve taken from the right that they’ve tried to shed their own identity, calling themselves everything but liberal and hoping to pass conservative muster by presenting themselves as hyper-religious and lifelong lovers of rifles, handguns, whatever.

So there was Hillary Clinton, of all people, sponsoring legislation to ban flag-burning; and Barack Obama, who once opposed the death penalty, morphing into someone who not only supports it, but supports it in cases that don’t even involve a homicide.

Anyway, the Republicans were back at it last week at their convention. Mitt Romney wasn’t content to insist that he personally knows that “liberals don’t have a clue.” He complained loudly that the federal government right now is too liberal.

“We need change, all right,” he said. “Change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington.”

Why liberals don’t stand up to this garbage, I don’t know. Without the extraordinary contribution of liberals — from the mightiest presidents to the most unheralded protesters and organizers — the United States would be a much, much worse place than it is today.

There would be absolutely no chance that a Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin could make a credible run for the highest offices in the land. Conservatives would never have allowed it.

Civil rights? Women’s rights? Liberals went to the mat for them time and again against ugly, vicious and sometimes murderous opposition. They should be forever proud.

The liberals who didn’t have a clue gave us Social Security and unemployment insurance, both of which were contained in the original Social Security Act. Most conservatives despised the very idea of this assistance to struggling Americans. Republicans hated Social Security, but most were afraid to give full throat to their opposition in public at the height of the Depression.

“In the procedural motions that preceded final passage,” wrote historian Jean Edward Smith in his biography, “FDR,” “House Republicans voted almost unanimously against Social Security. But when the final up-or-down vote came on April 19 [1935], fewer than half were prepared to go on record against.”

Liberals who didn’t have a clue gave us Medicare and Medicaid. Quick, how many of you (or your loved ones) are benefiting mightily from these programs, even as we speak. The idea that Republicans are proud of Ronald Reagan, who saw Medicare as “the advance wave of socialism,” while Democrats are ashamed of Lyndon Johnson, whose legislative genius made this wonderful, life-saving concept real, is insane.

When Johnson signed the Medicare bill into law in the presence of Harry Truman in 1965, he said: “No longer will older Americans be denied the healing miracle of modern medicine.”

Reagan, on the other hand, according to Johnson biographer Robert Dallek, “predicted that Medicare would compel Americans to spend their ‘sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was like in America when men were free.’ ”

Scary.

Without the many great and noble deeds of liberals over the past six or seven decades, America would hardly be recognizable to today’s young people. Liberals (including liberal Republicans, who have since been mostly drummed out of the party) ended legalized racial segregation and gender discrimination.

Humiliation imposed by custom and enforced by government had been the order of the day for blacks and women before men and women of good will and liberal persuasion stepped up their long (and not yet ended) campaign to change things. Liberals gave this country Head Start and legal services and the food stamp program. They fought for cleaner air (there was a time when you could barely see Los Angeles) and cleaner water (there were rivers in America that actually caught fire).

Liberals. Your food is safer because of them, and so are your children’s clothing and toys. Your workplace is safer. Your ability (or that of your children or grandchildren) to go to college is manifestly easier.

It would take volumes to adequately cover the enhancements to the quality of American lives and the greatness of American society that have been wrought by people whose politics were unabashedly liberal. It is a track record that deserves to be celebrated, not ridiculed or scorned.

Self-hatred is a terrible thing. Just ask that arch-conservative Clarence Thomas.

Liberals need to get over it.
!

headhuntersix

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 08:03:23 AM »
Liberal drivel.....as usual.

Liberals gave this country Head Start and legal services and the food stamp program...ur kidding right. Government sponsored hand outs designed to maintain a voting block.
L

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 08:08:53 AM »
blah, blah,blah  you could piece together a novel out of 5 of your posts.

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 08:10:10 AM »
Quote
There would be absolutely no chance that a Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin could make a credible run for the highest offices in the land. Conservatives would never have allowed it.

That's liberal propaganda in form.

youandme

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 09:18:12 AM »
lol, you know it's lost when a liberal titles an article "hold your head up"

headhuntersix

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 09:24:21 AM »
It should be titled..hang yourself now before its to late..
L

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 09:28:38 AM »
This is no different than many of the other slanted right wing trash articles that get posted here from time to time.


You could almost just substitute words and turn it in to one of them.

The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 09:29:47 AM »
Liberal drivel.....as usual.

Liberals gave this country Head Start and legal services and the food stamp program...ur kidding right. Government sponsored hand outs designed to maintain a voting block.

blah, blah,blah  you could piece together a novel out of 5 of your posts.

That's liberal propaganda in form.

...dismissal does NOT constitute debate.

I'm a relatively impartial European, completely removed from the American political system (living in Ireland)... yet even I know that there is NOTHING untrue in that article: not one false assertion, not one misconstrued fact.

From an outside observers viewpoint America currently has no proper left wing... Ralph Nader is slightly left wing/liberal... the Democratic Party are slightly right-leaning centrists.... however the GOP (Republican Party) are out and out unabashed theocratic fascists.

This isn't really in dispute... anyone who thinks differently has been indoctrinated either unconsciously or consciously.


If you are inherently averse to liberalism/socialism/communism (or atheism for that matter) you should consider why you know all the words to your national anthem... why you stand stand hand on heart upon hearing it... why you know the pledge of allegiance by rote... why you believe America is number one...?

For the record, truly liberal inclusively socialist countries (the Scandinavian countries etc) have surpassed (and considerably overtaken) America in every positive living index over the last two decades.


Brainwashing begins at home.


Awaiting moronic dismissals...
The Luke  

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 09:31:55 AM »

I'm a relatively impartial European,

That is all you had to say, bye.

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 09:45:06 AM »
...dismissal does NOT constitute debate.

I'm a relatively impartial European, completely removed from the American political system (living in Ireland)... yet even I know that there is NOTHING untrue in that article: not one false assertion, not one misconstrued fact.
..
The Luke  



September 9, 2008
Hold Your Heads Up
By BOB HERBERT

Ignorance must really be bliss. How else, over so many years, could the G.O.P. get away with ridiculing all things liberal?

Do they ridicule all things liberal? What are all things liberal?

Quote
Troglodytes on the right are no respecters of reality. They say the most absurd things and hardly anyone calls them on it. Evolution? Don’t you believe it. Global warming? A figment of the liberal imagination.

This leads the reader to think no one on the right lives in reality and backs it up by implying no one on the right believes in evolution or the danger of global warming.




I suppose i could go on.  But there's some good propaganda to to start off with it.

 :)

The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 10:08:02 AM »
Do they ridicule all things liberal? What are all things liberal?

...when "liberal" and "French" are used as pejoratives by anchors and political experts (read: corporate shills) on a news network that defines itself as "Fair and Balanced"... then yes, I would say all things liberal are being ridiculed.

By the way, FOX News can't be broadcast here in Europe (we can get Al Jazeera) as independent assessments have concluded that FOX fails to meet basic journalistic standards and is best classified as propaganda. (Before anyone attacks this point, in the international journalistic community Al Jazeera is considered completely impartial and holds itself to factual and journalistic standards just as high as those the BBC (used to) employ).


Let's get simple here for the benefit of our simpler readers... if you voted for the current administration you simply do not meet the standard of "informed voter".

Should uninformed or ill-informed voters be entitled to vote?



The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 10:15:29 AM »
...when "liberal" and "French" are used as pejoratives by anchors and political experts (read: corporate shills) on a news network that defines itself as "Fair and Balanced"... then yes, I would say all things liberal are being ridiculed.

By the way, FOX News can't be broadcast here in Europe (we can get Al Jazeera) as independent assessments have concluded that FOX fails to meet basic journalistic standards and is best classified as propaganda. (Before anyone attacks this point, in the international journalistic community Al Jazeera is considered completely impartial and holds itself to factual and journalistic standards just as high as those the BBC (used to) employ).


Let's get simple here for the benefit of our simpler readers... if you voted for the current administration you simply do not meet the standard of "informed voter".

Should uninformed or ill-informed voters be entitled to vote?



The Luke

I not arguing whether or not FOX news is bias or mostly propaganda.  I agree it is.  It's Blatant.   

BTW is the G.O.P. Fox news?   They are 2 different things that share similar views.

My contention is that this article is not 100% factual as you assert it is but instead filled with propaganda.

I cited 2 examples in the first 6 sentences of the article.

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2008, 10:27:44 AM »
Ozmo,

If that article is considered propaganda, then by that same standard FOX News would not be propaganda or even "blatant" propaganda as you describe it... it would be properly classified as "State Brainwashing".

That is what leads on from your standard of what constitutes propaganda.


But you did not identify propaganda in the article, you cited one ostensibly accurate generalization and misconstrued the context. The phrase "Hold Your Heads Up" is not propaganda... FOX's "Fair and Balanced" is propaganda.

For the record, FOX News IS the public relations arm of the Republican Party.


The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 10:38:09 AM »
Ozmo,

If that article is considered propaganda, then by that same standard FOX News would not be propaganda or even "blatant" propaganda as you describe it... it would be properly classified as "State Brainwashing".

That is what leads on from your standard of what constitutes propaganda.


But you did not identify propaganda in the article, you cited one ostensibly accurate generalization and misconstrued the context. The phrase "Hold Your Heads Up" is not propaganda... FOX's "Fair and Balanced" is propaganda.

For the record, FOX News IS the public relations arm of the Republican Party.


The Luke

OK, just taking the wikipedia definition of propaganda:

Propaganda is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.


That's what the article is doing.  Using generalizations and stereotypes is a good tool for propaganda.

I believe you see the term propaganda in it's most negative of connotations.  I see propaganda as a persuasive device used in many things.

Dictionary.com says it this way:

prop·a·gan·da     Audio Help   /ˌprɒpəˈgændə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prop-uh-gan-duh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.


Both those definitions apply to that article especially those 2 examples i cited.

And again, I'm NOT talking about the title of the article or FOX news.

The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 10:52:13 AM »
Both those definitions apply to that article especially those 2 examples i cited.

And again, I'm NOT talking about the title of the article or FOX news.

...then please define the two examples you gave and explicitly explain your reasoning.

From my careful reading of that article and your responses I believe you have miscomprehended the syntax.


The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 11:07:27 AM »
...then please define the two examples you gave and explicitly explain your reasoning.

From my careful reading of that article and your responses I believe you have miscomprehended the syntax.


The Luke

It's possible that i have, but here's my reasoning....(again)



Ignorance must really be bliss. How else, over so many years, could the G.O.P. get away with ridiculing all things liberal?

Do they ridicule all things liberal? What are all things liberal?  How can you define all things liberal?  And how can you prove the GOP has ridiculed all of them?  And does that include all the things both liberal and conservative that are the same?

The word "all" is key here.   It's like when your wife tells you something like "we always do this" or "this happens every time".  It's simply too general of a word to use when making an accusation about everyhting that a political party is.


"Troglodytes on the right are no respecters of reality. They say the most absurd things and hardly anyone calls them on it. Evolution? Don’t you believe it. Global warming? A figment of the liberal imagination."

This leads the reader to think no one on the right lives in reality and backs it up by implying no one on the right believes in evolution or the danger of global warming.

The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2008, 11:47:42 AM »
It's possible that i have, but here's my reasoning....(again)

Ignorance must really be bliss. How else, over so many years, could the G.O.P. get away with ridiculing all things liberal?

Do they ridicule all things liberal? What are all things liberal?  How can you define all things liberal?  And how can you prove the GOP has ridiculed all of them?  And does that include all the things both liberal and conservative that are the same?

The word "all" is key here.   It's like when your wife tells you something like "we always do this" or "this happens every time".  It's simply too general of a word to use when making an accusation about everyhting that a political party is.

...yeah, I think you have misinterpreted this.
The author is simply referring to the fact that "liberal" is now used as a pejorative... doing so, by definition ridicules ALL things liberal. Consider the way people like Romney and Giuliani use the word "French", or the way McCarthyists used the word "Red", or even how Islamic fundamentalists use the word "American"... it's a form of deliberate false correlation.

"Troglodytes on the right are no respecters of reality. They say the most absurd things and hardly anyone calls them on it. Evolution? Don’t you believe it. Global warming? A figment of the liberal imagination."

This leads the reader to think no one on the right lives in reality and backs it up by implying no one on the right believes in evolution or the danger of global warming.

...another syntax misinterpretation.

The subject of the contentious sentence you quoted is "Troglodytes"... YOU are the one who has specified the implication, there is no such inference in the language of the article as the group is explicitly identified. YOU have extended the identification.

I understand if English is your second language... but I suspect your political views clouded your reading of this piece. You, perhaps subconsciously, wanted the article to be logically inconsistent so that you could label it propaganda and dismiss it... that's not proper debate.



The Luke 

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2008, 11:56:38 AM »
...yeah, I think you have misinterpreted this.
The author is simply referring to the fact that "liberal" is now used as a pejorative... doing so, by definition ridicules ALL things liberal. Consider the way people like Romney and Giuliani use the word "French", or the way McCarthyists used the word "Red", or even how Islamic fundamentalists use the word "American"... it's a form of deliberate false correlation.



Perhaps that's what the author meant but that's not the what author says as you have added much to a simple sentence. 

I agree however, that's what liberal bashing has come too.
Quote
...another syntax misinterpretation.

The subject of the contentious sentence you quoted is "Troglodytes"... YOU are the one who has specified the implication, there is no such inference in the language of the article as the group is explicitly identified. YOU have extended the identification.

I understand if English is your second language... but I suspect your political views clouded your reading of this piece. You, perhaps subconsciously, wanted the article to be logically inconsistent so that you could label it propaganda and dismiss it... that's not proper debate.


It is logically inconsistent as I've pointed out.    The propaganda here is about what those sentences imply to the reader.  My assessment is correct.  I get what you are saying regarding  "Troglodytes" and it is correct.  But, people who read it won't interpret it that way.  They will conclude conservatives ridicule evolution.


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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2008, 12:13:28 PM »
It is logically inconsistent as I've pointed out.    The propaganda here is about what those sentences imply.  My assessment is correct.

...Nope.

The author made a comment referring to "Troglodytes on the right..." (that's pretty specific and explicit), however you contend that the comment is invalid/illogical as it does not extend to "Everyone on the right" (your words). YOU are the one who extended the "Troglodytes on the right..." into "Everyone on the right".

If I commented that "Stalin was a bastard" does that extend to ALL people; or ALL communists; or ALL those with mustaches... or ALL bastards?

You've either misread the article or don't comprehend the concept of the grammatical subjective...

This is a common mistake; a piece of text makes a statement/comment that either does or does not make an implication, the reader makes their inference and then conflates their particular (possibly incorrect) inference and the (usually less explicit) textual implication.


YOU have made an incorrect inference, no such implication is present in the text. Re-read the article.


The Luke

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2008, 12:17:27 PM »
...Nope.

The author made a comment referring to "Troglodytes on the right..." (that's pretty specific and explicit), however you contend that the comment is invalid/illogical as it does not extend to "Everyone on the right" (your words). YOU are the one who extended the "Troglodytes on the right..." into "Everyone on the right".

If I commented that "Stalin was a bastard" does that extend to ALL people; or ALL communists; or ALL those with mustaches... or ALL bastards?

You've either misread the article or don't comprehend the concept of the grammatical subjective...

This is a common mistake; a piece of text makes a statement/comment that either does or does not make an implication, the reader makes their inference and then conflates their particular (possibly incorrect) inference and the (usually less explicit) textual implication.


YOU have made an incorrect inference, no such implication is present in the text. Re-read the article.


The Luke

Stalin is a single individual, Troglodytes is a group or type of people.  Using Troglodytes implies "all republicans" when in fact it is not true.

I get what you are saying regarding  "Troglodytes" and it is correct.  But, people who read it won't interpret it that way.  They will conclude conservatives ridicule evolution.

Benny B

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2008, 12:52:32 PM »
Teh Luke brings the intellectual thunder from across the pond!  ;D
Notice it is the smallest of details being feebly debated...not the primary points consisting of the benefits of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, the Civil Rights Movement, and the Woman's Suffrage Movement. You know, all those horrible social programs and advances from the depths of deeply rooted racism and sexism.  ::)

Go easy on 'em brother, for they listen but cannot hear.  ;)
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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2008, 12:56:41 PM »
Teh Luke brings the intellectual thunder from across the pond!  ;D
Notice it is the smallest of details being feebly debated...not the primary points consisting of the benefits of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, the Civil Rights Movement, and the Woman's Suffrage Movement. You know, all those horrible social programs and advances from the depths of deeply rooted racism and sexism.  ::)

Go easy on 'em brother, for they listen but cannot hear.  ;)

You should scroll up and re-read.  My point is only that the article is filled with propaganda.  Not that some of the points in the article aren't true or bad.

Those small details seed the reader's mind with falsities before those primary points are made.  No need for it.

Benny B

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2008, 01:07:16 PM »
You should scroll up and re-read.  My point is only that the article is filled with propaganda.  Not that some of the points in the article aren't true or bad.

Those small details seed the reader's mind with falsities before those primary points are made.  No need for it.
I don't need to re-read shit. My man Bob Herbert does not write "propaganda."
Do you avoid op-ed pages of the newspaper, the most intellectual thought provoking and stimulating part of the newspaper, or do you stick to the sports and the funny pages?  ::) Are all op-ed writers agents of propaganda? You could make that argument (I suppose), however, I would prefer to engage the writing on its merits and the truths and/or untruths in which they espouse. The op-ed page is the one place where you can read points of view that differ than your own written in a scholarly manner (assuming you are reading a halfway decent newspaper.)

yet even I know that there is NOTHING untrue in that article: not one false assertion, not one misconstrued fact.
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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2008, 01:13:01 PM »
I don't need to re-read shit. My man Bob Herbert does not write "propaganda."
Do you avoid op-ed pages of the newspaper, the most intellectual thought provoking and stimulating part of the newspaper, or do you stick to the sports and the funny pages?  ::) Are all op-ed writers agents of propaganda? You could make that argument (I suppose), however, I would prefer to engage the writing on its merits and the truths and/or untruths in which they espouse. The op-ed page is the one place where you can read points of view that differ than your own written in a scholarly manner (assuming you are reading a halfway decent newspaper.)


Here you go with your ad-hom again.

Hard to have a conversation with someone like that.

But i'll hang with it a bit longer.

BOB Herbert does write propaganda and that has nothing to do with what op-ed peices are written anywhere.

and if you don't feel you should re-read, then don't bother responding, becuase we have little to discuss.

Other than that, what's your take on Obama's recent poll numbers?

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Re: Hold Your Heads Up
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2008, 01:15:48 PM »
Further more, I read/watch all kinds of crap in newspapers, internet and TV.  The difference is, I don't let my political views get manipulated by falling prey to propaganda crap when i read/watch them.

I guess you do.