Meso tricep

[wild willie]

BS Willie..you're using HIT as the definition of failure, which is wrong right out the box. Yates and Menter trained to negative failure, which is more demanding than standard training and is not the standard of hard training.

As far as Schwarzenegger, yes he did train to failure some of the time (t-bar rows, Pumping Iron), and said as much in the movie in saying "the body is not used to the 6th, 7th and 8th reps". Also seen quite clearly in Corney's squat set with Arnold especially last forced rep, as well as Ferrigno's sets in the movie-those were the most inspiring training sequences of the damn movie.

As far as Waller, maybe that's why he didn't have a great physique-he benefitted in several "wins" because he was always one of Weider's boys. Anyone who didn't train to failure we'll never know what their full potential really was even when they looked good-exactly what Sergio confirmed in saying that HIT training with a training partner pushing him and machines brough him to a new level that he wished later he'd continued.

pumpster.......you are getting a little too technical......Arnold spent time with arthur jones.....it did not go well.....he and arthur did not see eye to eye.....Arnold did not believe in going to failure.....Arnold believed in volume training......Arnold said that he lost size while in florida and that he didn't care for nautilus machines......I have heard from people that this was the truth......Bill Pearl did not train to failure.....he felt that 90 percent of failure was on track.....as did Ferrigno......Waller was not Weiders boy like Arnold and Franco were......so I am calling BS on you.......HIT is not the end all be all......genetics and the ability to recover from training is more important. Mentzer did not use Arthur's system until later in his bodybuilding career. Sorry to disagree with you but it is well documented. Many other champs did not go to failure either......Shawn Ray.....Ronnie.......doe sn't mean they don't train hard.......don't take it that way.

[wild willie]

the camera was in their face.......of course the director......George Butler wanted them to build up the drama by sreaming and carrying on. Come on Pumpster......that is what sells the movie......DRAMA!!!!!

[wild willie]

Remember that Arnold didn't train heavy after 1975......he got more into feel training.....going for pump and squeezing the contraction......higher reps and not necessarily going to failure.....the way Arthur Jones would want......Yes, Sergio did spend time with Jones as did Viator......but they all went back to their original way of training......Casey Viator even returned to more of a traditional approach to training! How about Serge Nubret......he would grind out set after set and never would go to failure......rather he would perform blood volume training......225 on bench for set after set.......his favorite bicep exercise was concentration curls with 25 pounds.......pumping like a machine....but not to failure.

[Deicide]

pumpster.......you are getting a little too technical......Arnold spent time with arthur jones.....it did not go well.....he and arthur did not see eye to eye.....Arnold did not believe in going to failure.....Arnold believed in volume training......Arnold said that he lost size while in florida and that he didn't care for nautilus machines......I have heard from people that this was the truth......Bill Pearl did not train to failure.....he felt that 90 percent of failure was on track.....as did Ferrigno......Waller was not Weiders boy like Arnold and Franco were......so I am calling BS on you.......HIT is not the end all be all......genetics and the ability to recover from training is more important. Mentzer did not use Arthur's system until later in his bodybuilding career. Sorry to disagree with you but it is well documented. Many other champs did not go to failure either......Shawn Ray.....Ronnie.......doe sn't mean they don't train hard.......don't take it that way.

Team Horrible Genetics approved

[pumpster]

pumpster.......you are getting a little too technical......Arnold spent time with arthur jones.....it did not go well.....he and arthur did not see eye to eye.....Arnold did not believe in going to failure.....Arnold believed in volume training......Arnold said that he lost size while in florida and that he didn't care for nautilus machines......

I will now blow up your latest speculation Willie..here he is quite willing to use the nautilus with Waller at the original Gold's Venice. Does he look like he's taking it easy on the training Willie? lol...sorry willi..FAIL. 


What confuses many including Willie is that the high volume and 6 day a week, twice a day double-split regimen Schwarzie was famous for was only used during the 3 month refinement and cutting pre-contest phase - even some HIT proponents like Viator favor high volume in that context, but not for building size.

Also like many but not all BBs, Schwarzie didn't necessarily train as hard later in his career-in the case of all those famous BBs what you rarely if ever see is what their training was like when they were building up and relative unknowns. Unfortunately, the videos usually only happen after the fact.

The true warriors don't lose that love of hard training later in life, that's their thing and it shows in their condition in middle-age - Draper, Robinson, Strydom, Padilla, Chris Faldo and Schwarzenegger sometimes - when getting in shape for movies.

[pumpster]

Team Horrible Genetics approved

 

[Cap]

I think there is something to be said for cutting back on volume.  Some people can recover from a lot of training but the best natural physiques I've seen came from people who lifted with intensity, moderate volume and good nutrition.  Most athletes I knew hovering in the 230-260 range and looked like BBers supplemented athletic lifts with roughly 9 sets for arms 2-3x per week.  Hard heavy short workouts and they were done.

[wild willie]

I will now blow up your latest speculation Willie..here he is quite willing to use the nautilus with Waller at the original Gold's Venice. Does he look like he's taking it easy on the training Willie? lol...sorry willi..FAIL. 


What confuses many including Willie is that the high volume and 6 day a week, twice a day double-split regimen Schwarzie was famous for was only used during the 3 month refinement and cutting pre-contest phase - even some HIT proponents like Viator favor high volume in that context, but not for building size.

Also like many but not all BBs, Schwarzie didn't necessarily train as hard later in his career-in the case of all those famous BBs what you rarely if ever see is what their training was like when they were building up and relative unknowns. Unfortunately, the videos usually only happen after the fact.

The true warriors don't lose that love of hard training later in life, that's their thing and it shows in their condition in middle-age - Draper, Robinson, Strydom, Padilla, Chris Faldo and Schwarzenegger sometimes - when getting in shape for movies.

pumpster,

Arnold did not care for Jones or his methods or his machines......you know that from Ironage!

[wild willie]

Arnold trained with Franco briefly and mainly Ed Corney.......I know that Arnold did little training offseason and would clean out the aas during this time as well.....he would remain lean but got rather small.....acting and real estate was what he focused on at that time.......come show time it was back to training. 20 sets higher reps......gaining size and maintaining his leaness. Read Arthur Jones' book....He talks about how Arnold and he did not get along too well. When Arnold returned to California he resumed his traditional training regime.

Boyer Coe and Arnold and Viator all gave HIT a go and decided to stay way from the 1 set theory and go back to a little higher sets......nothing like Defendis and Michalik and their insanity 60 sets.....but higher sets than Jones ever endorsed.

[pumpster]

pumpster,

Arnold did not care for Jones or his methods or his machines......you know that from Ironage!

No offense Willie, but you're brainwashed. My pic single-handedly destroys your assumptions about Arnold, Nautilus and hard training. That pic was taken at Gold's - he didn't have to use that machine nor did Gold's have to have it there unless it was good. Best pullover exercise ever invented that machine. I tried the Nautilus line in '76-77 - some of the machines were good, some were so-so. Like any line of equipment, their value was/is case-by-case.

Most people here on getbig can't stand Iron Age, for at least two reasons - the guy who runs it isn't open-minded even while claiming to be a writer. Writers are known to be willing to let others voice alternate points of view, which Iron Age does not. Plus the conservative point of view is highly biased towards Weider-he's a writer for Flex. Sounds like you didn't know that or are ignoring it for whatever your reasons.

Arnold likely had no problem with Jones, but was Weider's boy and had to follow Joe's lead. It was Weider in various 1973-4 articles who had a problem with Jones. I remember reading them as a teen and even then questioning Weider's motives then because the hostility was way over the top.

[wild willie]

I agree......ironage is a bore because of Perine and many other idiots over there.....but pumpster.....you need to understand I am getting this from Arthur's book....he hated arnold and they almost came to blows.....arnold and jones hated each other....had nothing to do with weider.....but yes....ironage is a bad place because of the brain washing......i can assure you my arnold/jones research was done by reading jones' book.

waller....arnold...samir ...wayne....grymkowski.. ...ferrigno....none of them followed jones......viator yes.....for a brief period.....

Eddie Robinson told me that he worked with anoth jones desciple......ellington darden and said that it was his worst experience and that he would have turned pro sooner than he did......if he had not worked with Darden.....but darden uses Eddie' pictures in his book and acts as though Eddie would endorse this system of training......HE DOESN'T ENDORSE IT AT ALL......jones and the mentzers were on a crusade to cahnge everyone's training. Perine is a moron and he ruined Ironage..... I agrre with you there......Arnold did not follow jones or care for his machines......ask anyone!!!!

[wild willie]

that pic of sergio is while he was in deland, florida with arthur.....

he did go through workouts there....


he then went back to his usual form of working out when he left florida.....same as casey viator.....he did the experiment with arthur but then went back to his original workout regimen.

These pictures are while the jones supervised training was going on in his facility in deland florida.....it was a trial run.....arnold left and never followed jones' system ever again!!!!

[slaveboy1980]

i hardly post on here these days (i still love to workout, but very tired about discussing bodybuilding) and i will have to say i agree with alot of what pumpster says.

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

i hardly post on here these days (i still love to workout, but very tired about discussing bodybuilding) and i will have to say i agree with alot of what pumpster says.

PUMPTESRS RIGHT,,BUT WILLIE IS RIGHT TOO,EVERY ONE IS DIFFERENT PEOPLE DONT TRY HIT BECAUSE ITS TOO HARD BELIEVE IT OR NOT WHEN YOU TRAIN TO FAILUTRE IT HURTS AND MOST BBERS DONT LIKE TO GET HURT THEY LIKE TO CASUALLY PUMP UP MUSCLES NOTHING MORE ONE REACHES FAILURE FASTER THAN THE OTHER THATS ALL,,HIT YOU CAN REACH FAILUTRE WITH 3 WARMPUS FASTER THAN HIGH VOLUEM, ,,,BUT EITHER WAY THEY BOTH REACH FAILUTRE JUST DIFFERENT POINTS IN TRAINING ON THE CURVE,,,DOES NOT MATTER AS LONG AS MUSCLE REACHED EXHAUSTED FAUILRE YOU GROW,

[pumpster]

that pic of sergio is while he was in deland, florida with arthur.....

he did go through workouts there....


he then went back to his usual form of working out when he left florida.....same as casey viator.....he did the experiment with arthur but then went back to his original workout regimen.

These pictures are while the jones supervised training was going on in his facility in deland florida.....it was a trial run.....arnold left and never followed jones' system ever again!!!!

Read Sergio's interview Willie - he now regrets not continuing with it, and everyone knows he was in his best condition after the time with Jones. Most people benefit by being pushed farther by others. He's also pro-machine as a result, though there were exceptions for example squats he still wanted to do.

BUT EITHER WAY THEY BOTH REACH FAILUTRE JUST DIFFERENT POINTS IN TRAINING ON THE CURVE,,,

Bingo. It doesn't matter when, so take the most direct route instead of the long road.

i hardly post on here these days (i still love to workout, but very tired about discussing bodybuilding) and i will have to say i agree with alot of what pumpster says.

Slave knows his stuff so thanks. Kinda miss his posts on g&o, it's more interesting with alternate views.

[jpm101]

Agree with Wild Wille, for the most part. Top BB'ers & Pro's may be shown going to complete failure but seldom do in real time personal workouts. That eye's & veins popping out, grunting, etc is  showtime stuff for the camera's. Also, anything you read that passes as training advice from any Pro, you might want to be cautious of. Most are selling something number one. Themselves or some book, DVD, product, supplement, etc. Who would really care what Arnold, Sergio or any other known BB'er said 40 years ago. Mostly BS anyway.

The important thing is the pump for true BB'ing and the best pumps are through higher volume workouts (old BB'ing saying, "more blood, more muscle"). If going to true complete failure on a first few  sets, the rest of the planned volume sets can never be achieved the way they should. Burn out too fast to do justice to the remaining workout. Tend to stop one or two reps short on complete failure. Remember there are three main divisions of failure; momentary, complete and negative. Super shoot-up drugs or not, too much reaching failure taxes the recovery and CNS big time. Sooner or later you will hit the wall. Maybe why some old Pro's switched back to how they trained before the failure thing.

That famous shot of Sergio is in DeLand, Fla. Posed on the original prototype pullover machine. The improved version had a overhead pulldown devise attached. Best lat builder even, when not abused. As too many BB'ers did. Jone shoulder press machine was also very impressive, with the results gotten.. Both took the weak linked arms out of the exercise, for the most part. A few gym's had only Nautilus machines to training on. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

 the best pumps are through higher volume workouts

That is absurd, thus the rest of the assumptions moot. Seriously the whole "i don't bother to train to failure" renders your conclusions incomplete. Try pushing yourself, have some ambition and you'll understand the dynamics and big picture better.

I've gotten enormous pumps on lower volume; best pumps you feel not only totally inflated and high on endorphins, you also get the deep muscle ache. That can happen with high, medium or lower volume. GVT using 6 x 6 is not high volume and gives great pumps. And probably with HIT as well, IF it's true HIT with a training partner, which most people can't and don't do even while claiming HIT training. The real thing's too gruelling for most.

Pump has to do with factors like forcing the body to adapt through applying progressively greater intensity (Schwarzenegger - the body's not used to the 6th, 7th reps), finding the most effective exercises, intensity techniques such as cheating, rest-pause, etc., the length of the rest periods between sets, your energy level, etc.

[jpm101]

Actually GVT is 10X10's (100 reps) not 6X6 (36 reps). 

6X6's could be considered High volume if 5 exercises or more , for a specific muscle group, are to be preformed. Like doing 5 chest exercises, 6 sets each exercise of 6 reps. That would add up to 180 reps total for high volume chest work. And usually 60 second rest between sets and 90 seconds between each exercise. Idea being to work at a fast pace during that chest workout time. Even 4 exercises would total 144 reps.  3 exercises 108 reps total. Any of these should be enough fast pace volume work for most muscle groups. Do not have to use 10, 12 or whatever reps to be considered high volume.

If people think that not going to failure each rep is not working hard, they are painfully mistaken. Or do not have actual serious gym experience at all. Good Luck.

[Painlayer69]

So how would someone pair up muscle groups when trying to train everything 2x-3x per week???