Author Topic: NFL Combine  (Read 4211 times)

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NFL Combine
« on: February 23, 2009, 12:14:32 PM »
I think the 40 is the most irrelevant measuring stick next to the Wonderlick.  Neither really have anything to do with performance.  No one cares about either after the draft. 

I just read that Wells ran a 4.59 and Moreno ran a 4.6.  Big deal. 

Players from smaller schools have to perform well to improve their draft status, unfortunately. 

UH's David Veikune has done well so far.  Did 35 on the bench (3d best among d-linemen) and ran a 4.87 (9th best). 

Ryan Mouton needs to run a 4.4 to ensure he gets drafted. 

Ian Johnson has some good numbers too.   

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 02:10:33 PM »
I think the 40 is the most irrelevant measuring stick next to the Wonderlick.  Neither really have anything to do with performance.  No one cares about either after the draft. 

I just read that Wells ran a 4.59 and Moreno ran a 4.6.  Big deal. 

Players from smaller schools have to perform well to improve their draft status, unfortunately. 

UH's David Veikune has done well so far.  Did 35 on the bench (3d best among d-linemen) and ran a 4.87 (9th best). 

Ryan Mouton needs to run a 4.4 to ensure he gets drafted. 

Ian Johnson has some good numbers too.   
Unofficial 40 time of 4.38 seconds, officially 4.46, 26 rep bench press.
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body88

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 02:22:43 PM »
I think the 40 is the most irrelevant measuring stick next to the Wonderlick.  Neither really have anything to do with performance.  No one cares about either after the draft. 

I just read that Wells ran a 4.59 and Moreno ran a 4.6.  Big deal. 

Players from smaller schools have to perform well to improve their draft status, unfortunately. 

UH's David Veikune has done well so far.  Did 35 on the bench (3d best among d-linemen) and ran a 4.87 (9th best). 

Ryan Mouton needs to run a 4.4 to ensure he gets drafted. 

Ian Johnson has some good numbers too.   


The forty and the wonderlick and not irrelevant.  They are simply an added way for scouts to get data on players.  Also, the same tests you are complaining about have help guys from small schools get drafted.  It gives them a chance to showcase their speed and smarts directly in front of scouts and coaches.  Look at DRC last year and Chris Johnson.  Two of the fastest guys at the combine.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 02:33:03 PM »
Unofficial 40 time of 4.38 seconds, officially 4.46, 26 rep bench press.

Pretty good.  Didn't think he could do 26. 

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 02:37:36 PM »

The forty and the wonderlick and not irrelevant.  They are simply an added way for scouts to get data on players.  Also, the same tests you are complaining about have help guys from small schools get drafted.  It gives them a chance to showcase their speed and smarts directly in front of scouts and coaches.  Look at DRC last year and Chris Johnson.  Two of the fastest guys at the combine.


No one talks about 40 times after the draft.  I bet Irvin, Smith, Rice, Marcus Allen, etc. ran around 4.6 - 4.7 while playing in the NFL.  What matters is what a player does on the field between the whistles.   

Chris Johnson was good before he got to the combine.  He also has great football speed and is a very good RB. I could really care less about his 40 time. I had no idea who he was before I saw him play in the Hawaii Bowl. When I saw his burst I said "that kid has a great burst," not "I wonder what his 40 time is."  I care about what I see on film and what I see live.

I remember that kid Williamson (WR) running some blazing 40 time and suddenly becoming a first round pick a few years ago. The problem is he can't/couldn't play.  I think it's a pretty worthless measuring stick that is forgotten right after the draft (alongside the Wonderlick).

Does anyone who thought Wells and Moreno were good players now think they are slow because of their pedestrian 40 times?  I also remember Boldin running a 4.7.   

Unfortunately, some skill position players need good 40 times to improve their draft stock.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 02:49:15 PM »
No one talks about 40 times after the draft.  I bet Irvin, Smith, Rice, Marcus Allen, etc. ran around 4.6 - 4.7 while playing in the NFL.  What matters is what a player does on the field between the whistles.   

Chris Johnson was good before he got to the combine.  He also has great football speed and is a very good RB. I could really care less about his 40 time. I had no idea who he was before I saw him play in the Hawaii Bowl. When I saw his burst I said "that kid has a great burst," not "I wonder what his 40 time is."  I care about what I see on film and what I see live.

I remember that kid Williamson (WR) running some blazing 40 time and suddenly becoming a first round pick a few years ago. The problem is he can't/couldn't play.  I think it's a pretty worthless measuring stick that is forgotten right after the draft (alongside the Wonderlick).

Does anyone who thought Wells and Moreno were good players now think they are slow because of their pedestrian 40 times?  I also remember Boldin running a 4.7.   

Unfortunately, some skill position players need good 40 times to improve their draft stock.

The bottom line is this, if the combine was not valuable they would not have it.  It's put on by the NFL for the scouts and the teams.  Lots of guys ran fast times.....lots of guys have turned out great who ran slow times.  Again, its just another tool that coaches and teams can use to gather some added data on athletes.  Having a good showing there can only help you. 

Some examples of guys who did well on the wonderlick:  Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Payton Manning, Tom Brady, Troy Aikmen, Matt Ryan, Steve Young, John Elway, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Drew Beldsoe, etc. All these guys scored 29 or above on their test.

Average scores in other professions look like this:
Chemist: 31
Programmer: 29
Newswriter: 26
Sales: 24
Bank teller: 22
Clerical Worker: 21
Security Guard: 17
Warehouse: 15


Again, the wonderlick and the 40 are not what a good team is basing their drafting on, it's just more data they can compile to make their decisions.  Neither test is worthless, thats just crazy talk.  Also, Chris Johnson forty is still be talked about this year and it was a huge reason he got the attention that he did.  Also, DRC was drafted in the first round do to his good combine.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 03:35:22 PM »
The bottom line is this, if the combine was not valuable they would not have it.  It's put on by the NFL for the scouts and the teams.  Lots of guys ran fast times.....lots of guys have turned out great who ran slow times.  Again, its just another tool that coaches and teams can use to gather some added data on athletes.  Having a good showing there can only help you. 

Some examples of guys who did well on the wonderlick:  Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Payton Manning, Tom Brady, Troy Aikmen, Matt Ryan, Steve Young, John Elway, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Drew Beldsoe, etc. All these guys scored 29 or above on their test.

Average scores in other professions look like this:
Chemist: 31
Programmer: 29
Newswriter: 26
Sales: 24
Bank teller: 22
Clerical Worker: 21
Security Guard: 17
Warehouse: 15


Again, the wonderlick and the 40 are not what a good team is basing their drafting on, it's just more data they can compile to make their decisions.  Neither test is worthless, thats just crazy talk.  Also, Chris Johnson forty is still be talked about this year and it was a huge reason he got the attention that he did.  Also, DRC was drafted in the first round do to his good combine.

I didn't say the combine wasn't valuable.  I questioned the relevancy of 40 times and the Wonderlick.  I think the agility drills and shuttles are better predictors than the 40.  As I said, no one cares after draft day. 

If I cared enough I'm sure I could find good/great QBs who had bad Wonderlick scores and bad/average QBs who had good Wonderlick scores.  That is easily the most irrelevant "test" in sports IMO.  I think Montana is the greatest QB in NFL history and Ryan Leaf the worst.  I have no clue what they scored on the Woderlick and don't care.  It's meaningless.  I mean at least test them on how to read defenses, offensive formations, etc.     

I also didn't say that good/bad combines don't affect a player's draft status.  Certainly can.  I'm only talking about two (worthless) components.   

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 05:42:41 PM »
I didn't say the combine wasn't valuable.  I questioned the relevancy of 40 times and the Wonderlick.  I think the agility drills and shuttles are better predictors than the 40.  As I said, no one cares after draft day. 

If I cared enough I'm sure I could find good/great QBs who had bad good Wonderlick scores and bad/average QBs who had good Wonderlick scores.  That is easily the most irrelevant "test" in sports IMO.  I think Montana is greatest QB in NFL history and Ryan Leaf the worst.  I have no clue what they scored on the Woderlick and don't care.  It's meaningless.  I mean at least test them on how to read defenses, offensive formations, etc.     

I also didn't say that good/bad combines don't affect a player's draft status.  Certainly can.  I'm only talking about two (worthless) components.   



Quote
I didn't say the combine wasn't valuable.  I questioned the relevancy of 40 times and the Wonderlick.  I think the agility drills and shuttles are better predictors than the 40.  As I said, no one cares after draft day. 

I know.  I think the 40 is a relevant test.  If gives scouts the chance to match real speed vs game speed.  It gives them a chance to verify what they have seen on tape.  It also gives guys from smaller schools the ability to be noticed.  True, the 40 can be misleading, but the fact of the matter is this: with speed being the number one factor in the NFL - you have to have guys run the 40.  If it was not an important test, you would not see every coach and scout from every NFL team out there with their own stop watches.

Quote
If I cared enough I'm sure I could find good/great QBs who had bad good Wonderlick scores and bad/average QBs who had good Wonderlick scores.  That is easily the most irrelevant "test" in sports IMO.  I think Montana is greatest QB in NFL history and Ryan Leaf the worst.  I have no clue what they scored on the Woderlick and don't care.  It's meaningless.  I mean at least test them on how to read defenses, offensive formations, etc.     
  The lowest "great" QB's wonderlick score you would find would be Dan Marino at a 20, I believe.  As shown above, there is a definite pattern with above average wonderlick scores and good to great QB's.   I just listed many very good to best ever QB's who did well on the wonderlick.  As you know, QB's are forced to process a lot of information in regards to schemes and defenses, so I would think that an intelligence test was an important factor in picking the right QB. 

Quote
I also didn't say that good/bad combines don't affect a player's draft status.  Certainly can.  I'm only talking about two (worthless) components.
 

I just gave you two direct examples of how a 40 time pushed two guys from last year into the first round when there were doubts about their talent lev due to their small school pedigree. Running an elite 40 helped those guys a lot.  Also, I just gave you a list of about 10 great to best ever QB's who had above average wonderlick scores.  Not sure how these tests are "worthless" (especially the wonderlick scores considering I just listed pretty much every good -great QB of the last decade), but I'll respect your opinion.


Complete list of QB's who did well on the wonderlick:

Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Payton Manning, Tom Brady, Troy Aikmen, Matt Ryan, Steve Young, John Elway, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Drew Beldsoe, Matt Cassel, Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Brady Quinn, Carson Palmer, John Beck....you get the idea. Are there bad qb's who did well on this test? JP Losemen comes to mind, but JP does not have the physical skills to be a top level QB.....it's Hardly a "worthless" test, imo.

Earl1972

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 10:29:24 PM »


  The lowest "great" QB's wonderlick score you would find would be Dan Marino at a 20, I believe. 

i have a cousin that claims marino paid him $50 to take his english final at pitt

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 05:57:17 AM »
i have a cousin that claims marino paid him $50 to take his english final at pitt

E

Awesome.  Marino was a huge coke head to.  I work with a former Pitt cheerleader.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 06:11:13 AM »
i have a cousin that claims marino paid him $50 to take his english final at pitt

E
Knowing a lot of collegiate athletes, this doesn't surprise me at all.
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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 06:11:26 AM »
A couple of pulled hammy's yesterday.

2 of the big receivers that the G-men are supposedly looking at ran "ehh" 40's yesterday.
Britt ran a 4.9 and Nicks ran a 4.51

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 07:05:15 AM »
I think with Ian's scores, I think he will move up to a early 2nd rounder.. I still think Childs will end up going mid late to late 1st rnd... We shall see.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 07:23:20 AM »
I think with Ian's scores, I think he will move up to a early 2nd rounder.. I still think Childs will end up going mid late to late 1st rnd... We shall see.



3 guys from Utah should go pretty high.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2009, 07:27:56 AM »
Awesome.  Marino was a huge coke head to.  I work with a former Pitt cheerleader.

hahahahaha...Marino Did Coke and Phelps Did Weed...Whats next Jordan did Crack and Gretsky did Meth...hahahaha

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2009, 08:50:57 AM »
hahahahaha...Marino Did Coke and Phelps Did Weed...Whats next Jordan did Crack and Gretsky did Meth...hahahaha
I know plenty of college athletes doing it all, including roids.  The NCAA is a joke when it comes to testing.

I'm glad Ian improved his stock.  We all knew he'd go pro.
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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2009, 03:01:32 PM »

I know.  I think the 40 is a relevant test.  If gives scouts the chance to match real speed vs game speed.  It gives them a chance to verify what they have seen on tape.  It also gives guys from smaller schools the ability to be noticed.  True, the 40 can be misleading, but the fact of the matter is this: with speed being the number one factor in the NFL - you have to have guys run the 40.  If it was not an important test, you would not see every coach and scout from every NFL team out there with their own stop watches.
  The lowest "great" QB's wonderlick score you would find would be Dan Marino at a 20, I believe.  As shown above, there is a definite pattern with above average wonderlick scores and good to great QB's.   I just listed many very good to best ever QB's who did well on the wonderlick.  As you know, QB's are forced to process a lot of information in regards to schemes and defenses, so I would think that an intelligence test was an important factor in picking the right QB. 
 
I just gave you two direct examples of how a 40 time pushed two guys from last year into the first round when there were doubts about their talent lev due to their small school pedigree. Running an elite 40 helped those guys a lot.  Also, I just gave you a list of about 10 great to best ever QB's who had above average wonderlick scores.  Not sure how these tests are "worthless" (especially the wonderlick scores considering I just listed pretty much every good -great QB of the last decade), but I'll respect your opinion.


Complete list of QB's who did well on the wonderlick:

Joe Flacco, Eli Manning, Payton Manning, Tom Brady, Troy Aikmen, Matt Ryan, Steve Young, John Elway, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Drew Beldsoe, Matt Cassel, Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Brady Quinn, Carson Palmer, John Beck....you get the idea. Are there bad qb's who did well on this test? JP Losemen comes to mind, but JP does not have the physical skills to be a top level QB.....it's Hardly a "worthless" test, imo.

 What is "real speed"?  The only thing that matters is game speed.  The 40 doesn't measure game speed.  The film and watching games live measures game speed.  Moreno didn't verify his game speed by running a 4.6 40 at the combine.  He plays much faster than that. 

I'm not arguing that the 40 doesn't help (or hurt) players at the combine.  Of course it does.  My view is it shouldn't.  For every player you mention who improved his draft stock because of a good combine 40, I can give you a player who improved his stock and didn't deserve it, like Troy Williamson, Vernon Davis (who doesn't play nearly as fast as his combine 40), Mike Mamula, Aundray Bruce, etc., etc. 

Here is a demonstration of how worthless the Wonderlic is.  Some of the best QBs in NFL history had the following scores:

Jim Kelly - 15
Dan Marino - 15
Terry Bradshaw - 15

Some very good QBs had the following:

Vinny Testaverde - 17
Randall Cunningham - 15
Steve McNair - 15

Some really bad or at best average QBs had the following:

Darrell Hackney - 40
Omar Jacobs - 38
Alex Smith - 40
Rex Grossman - 29
Brian Griese - 39
Ken Dorsey - 25
Akili Smith - 26

Absolutely worthless.  Who gives a rip if a QB can answer 50 questions in 30 minutes on some cockamamie test?  That's not a real life situation.  Has nothing to do with football.  It's not a predictor. 

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2009, 03:03:09 PM »
I think with Ian's scores, I think he will move up to a early 2nd rounder.. I still think Childs will end up going mid late to late 1st rnd... We shall see.


You think he'll go that high?  Have you seen any projections? 

I'm actually hoping Veikune slips into the second.  I think Mouton and Ingram will go early on day 2.  Elimimian might go late on day 2. 

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2009, 03:09:02 PM »
What is "real speed"?  The only thing that matters is game speed.  The 40 doesn't measure game speed.  The film and watching games live measures game speed.  Moreno didn't verify his game speed by running a 4.6 40 at the combine.  He plays much faster than that. 

I'm not arguing that the 40 doesn't help (or hurt) players at the combine.  Of course it does.  My view is it shouldn't.  For every player you mention who improved his draft stock because of a good combine 40, I can give you a player who improved his stock and didn't deserve it, like Troy Williamson, Vernon Davis (who doesn't play nearly as fast as his combine 40), Mike Mamula, Aundray Bruce, etc., etc. 

Here is a demonstration of how worthless the Wonderlic is.  Some of the best QBs in NFL history had the following scores:



Some very good QBs had the following:

Vinny Testaverde - 17
Randall Cunningham - 15
Steve McNair - 15

Some really bad or at best average QBs had the following:

Darrell Hackney - 40
Omar Jacobs - 38
Alex Smith - 40
Rex Grossman - 29
Brian Griese - 39
Ken Dorsey - 25
Akili Smith - 26

Absolutely worthless.  Who gives a rip if a QB can answer 50 questions in 30 minutes on some cockamamie test?  That's not a real life situation.  Has nothing to do with football.  It's not a predictor. 


It's not worthless.  I love you act as if a bunch of tests requested by NFL teams are "worthless".  Why do teams even show up then?  Why do they spend so much money on the event?  The guys who scored high on the wonderlick but stunk in the NFL were just not good qb's.  Good to great qb's who did not do well on the wonderlick:

Jim Kelly - 15
Dan Marino - 15
Terry Bradshaw - 15
Randall Cunningham - 15
Steve McNair - 15


Guys who did (29 or above):
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning
Payton Manning
Tom Brady
Troy Aikmen
Matt Ryan
Steve Young
John Elway
Phillip Rivers
Tony Romo
Drew Bledsoe
Matt Cassel
Aaron Rodgers
Jay Cutler
Brady Quinn
Carson Palmer
John Beck
Trent Edwards
Chad Pennginton



Clearly there is merit to the test.  You just can't admit that your wrong.  Looks like I am showing the majority share, while you are not.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2009, 03:15:44 PM »
What is "real speed"?  The only thing that matters is game speed.  The 40 doesn't measure game speed.  The film and watching games live measures game speed.  Moreno didn't verify his game speed by running a 4.6 40 at the combine.  He plays much faster than that. 

I'm not arguing that the 40 doesn't help (or hurt) players at the combine.  Of course it does.  My view is it shouldn't.  For every player you mention who improved his draft stock because of a good combine 40, I can give you a player who improved his stock and didn't deserve it, like Troy Williamson, Vernon Davis (who doesn't play nearly as fast as his combine 40), Mike Mamula, Aundray Bruce, etc., etc. 

Here is a demonstration of how worthless the Wonderlic is.  Some of the best QBs in NFL history had the following scores:

Jim Kelly - 15
Dan Marino - 15
Terry Bradshaw - 15

Some very good QBs had the following:

Vinny Testaverde - 17
Randall Cunningham - 15
Steve McNair - 15

Some really bad or at best average QBs had the following:

Darrell Hackney - 40
Omar Jacobs - 38
Alex Smith - 40
Rex Grossman - 29
Brian Griese - 39
Ken Dorsey - 25
Akili Smith - 26


Absolutely worthless.  Who gives a rip if a QB can answer 50 questions in 30 minutes on some cockamamie test?  That's not a real life situation.  Has nothing to do with football.  It's not a predictor. 


I dont know Body...Looks Like beach got you with this one

body88

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2009, 03:19:59 PM »
No he didnt:



Jim Kelly - 15
Dan Marino - 15
Terry Bradshaw - 15
Randall Cunningham - 15
Steve McNair - 15


Guys who did (29 or above):
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning
Payton Manning
Tom Brady
Troy Aikmen
Matt Ryan
Steve Young
John Elway
Phillip Rivers
Tony Romo
Drew Bledsoe
Matt Cassel
Aaron Rodgers
Jay Cutler
Brady Quinn
Carson Palmer
John Beck
Trent Edwards
Chad Pennginton


Again, compile me a list of all the best qb's over the last 20 years and lets look at who did good on the wonderlick vs who did not.  The majority is in my favor.  By a large margin.  We are comparing apples to apples here. Take all the best qb's of the last 20 years and look at who did well on the wonderlick and who did not.  Judging by the starting list I am showing a much larger share of the market.  It's pretty simple really...Good to great qb's did well on the wonderlick far more than they did poorly (almost five times as much), so in conclusion, the wonderlick is a valuable test and it certainly not worthless.

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2009, 03:28:22 PM »
It's not worthless.  I love you act as if a bunch of tests requested by NFL teams are "worthless".  Why do teams even show up then?  Why do they spend so much money on the event?  The guys who scored high on the wonderlick but stunk in the NFL were just not good qb's.  Good to great qb's who did not do well on the wonderlick:

Jim Kelly - 15
Dan Marino - 15
Terry Bradshaw - 15
Randall Cunningham - 15
Steve McNair - 15


Guys who did (29 or above):
Joe Flacco
Eli Manning
Payton Manning
Tom Brady
Troy Aikmen
Matt Ryan
Steve Young
John Elway
Phillip Rivers
Tony Romo
Drew Bledsoe
Matt Cassel
Aaron Rodgers
Jay Cutler
Brady Quinn
Carson Palmer
John Beck
Trent Edwards
Chad Pennginton



Clearly there is merit to the test.  You just can't admit that your wrong.  Looks like I am showing the majority share, while you are not.

I don't need to admit that I'm "wrong."  I'm expressing an opinion.  So are you, except you're trying to state your opinion as fact. 

And yes I am saying that a so-called intelligence test used by the NFL at the combine is absolutely worthless.  The fact players with great scores suck and players with terrible scores are great shows how irrelevant the test is.  You cannot show any proven link between the Wonderlic and success as an NFL player.  How in the world does answering 50 questions in 30 minutes that have nothing to do with football establish that a player will be good or bad?  Pretty silly if you ask me.  I'm not sure how it started, but tradition is a very hard thing to break. 

Giving your opinion is one thing.  Trying to turn it into some scientific conclusion is another.

And no, you can't simply tally up the number of players with "good" scores and draw any sort of reliable conclusion.   

Ryan Leaf scored 27.  Worst QB in NFL history and he nearly doubled Dan Marino's score.     

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2009, 04:12:00 PM »
  I work with a former Pitt cheerleader.

is she good looking?

most of the ones i see look like shit ;D

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Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2009, 04:18:00 PM »
I said 30 minutes.  It's actually a 12 minute test.   ::)  Here is an old article with comments (pro and con) from NFL players and coaches:

Wonderlic reaches well beyond NFL 
Posted 4/16/2006 10:38 PM ET 

 By Carl Kotala, Florida Today
Want to match wits with Vince Young — or any future NFL Draft pick?
Well, if you've got 12 minutes to spare, Wonderlic.com has the answers — and questions — similar to those taken by the nation's best college football players.

Michael Callans, president of Wonderlic Consulting, said the company hopes to have a sample on its website — wonderlic.com — before the NFL Draft begins April 29.

"Obviously, it won't be the same form that the NFL is using, but it will give you an equivalent score," Callans said.

TEST YOURSELF: Try some Wonderlic questions

While sports fans relate the Wonderlic to what takes place at the combine in Indianapolis — where players are tested, measured and interviewed — the NFL represents a fraction of the company's business. Founded in 1937, Wonderlic Consulting has roughly 10,000 clients ranging from Fortune 100 companies to dental offices with 2-3 employees.

The test NFL prospects began taking in the 1970s, known as the Wonderlic Personnel Test, has been administered more than 130 million times. It consists of 50 questions with a 12-minute time limit and a possible high score of 50.

Some questions are easy, requiring only the most basic knowledge to answer. Some require more logic, academic skill and reasoning.

"In reality, we probably sell about 3,000 tests to the NFL a year for this purpose, and that's really on the high side," Callans said. "The combine purchases about 400 a year and then individual teams maybe buy some for their own purposes. But this test itself, we sell three million of them a year."

Vince Young could have used a tutor before the Texas quarterback took the Wonderlic two months ago.

Results are not released publicly, but they are given to the 32 NFL teams, which leaves more room for potential leaks than the little Dutch boy had fingers.

Initial reports had Young scoring a 6 on his first attempt, 16 on his second. That's still below the quarterback average of 24. The consensus among coaches at last month's NFL owners meetings was that Young's performance in Texas' Rose Bowl victory against Southern California will outweigh his Wonderlic score come draft day.

After all, Miami Dolphins Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Marino reportedly scored a 16 on his test. Michael Vick supposedly scored a 20, Brett Favre a 22 and Donovan McNabb a 12.

Of course, nobody is perfect — except for former Cincinnati Bengals punter Pat McInally, believed to be the only player to score a 50 (he was a Harvard graduate). Defensive end Mike Mamula, a star at Boston College but a bust in the NFL, supposedly had a 49.

However, the test does carry some weight. How much depends on the team or the coach.

"It raises a flag if you see a low score," Jacksonville's Jack Del Rio said. "But I think you continue to work and investigate and evaluate whether or not that person is meeting the criteria you've set for that particular position."

Del Rio, who played linebacker at USC, recalled scoring a 31 when he took the test.

Denver coach Mike Shanahan's theory as to why Young scored so low was that he probably didn't take a practice test beforehand as many players do.

Shanahan is quite familiar with the Wonderlic. He and his wife used to take it together and compete to see who had the better score.

Four of the 12 NFL experts Florida Today talked to about the Wonderlic referred to it specifically as a reading comprehension test. That is one of several misconceptions.

"It's an intelligence test, is what it is," Callans said. "I keep reading papers, and some people think it's a personality assessment. Some people think it's asking odd, bizarre questions about preferences for meat or vegetables. I don't know where some of these questions come from.

"But it really is a measure of intelligence, cognitive ability — how bright you are, how you're able to solve problems, think on your feet. That's all it is. Yeah, it does require some level of reading, but it's a sixth-grade level of reading. Any college player that's going into the NFL is expected to have that level of reading."

Callans believes the Wonderlic is simply one piece of the evaluation puzzle. It gives NFL teams a chance to measure the mental aspect of players' skills to combine with their 40-yard dash time and bench-press numbers.

The day the news broke two months ago of Young's scores, Callans said the company Internet site became overloaded after receiving 50,000 hits. Typically, it gets 10,000 in a day.

Although the Liberty, Ill.-based company creates and sells the tests, it does not administer them to prospective NFL players. That is done by the NFL group that runs the event.

The message Callans hopes will get out to kids and college athletes is that it's important to develop academically as well as athletically. NFL teams, and businesses, are looking for the total package.

Just look at the Wonderlic itself. It's known worldwide for its association with the NFL, but it's much more than that.

"We enjoy the publicity," Callans said. "We actually haven't figured out if it helps us or hurts us from a real business point of view, but it's fun."

Coaches give mixed reviews to test

When it comes to the Wonderlic test and the weight it carries in evaluating a perspective player, NFL coaches are a mixed bag.

Arizona's Dennis Green claims to have never seen one, much less put any stock in its results.

Tampa Bay's Jon Gruden had all of his coaches take it, but wouldn't reveal his own score only to say ... it wasn't good. Other coaches would call that a red flag.

Then there's Miami head coach Nick Saban, who as an assistant with the Houston Oilers in the late 1980s pulled a truly dastardly deed. He helped a kid gain a competitive advantage, so to speak.

"I'm not going to give his name, but he had a low Wonderlic," Saban said, grinning slightly. "They sent me up there with the test to retest him.

"I really liked this guy. He played safety. I got the test out, and even though I didn't take it, I studied it. Then I tutored the guy for about an hour before he took it, then I gave him twice as long to take it than he was supposed to.

"He doubled his score. We got him to where we could draft him. Now nobody knows about that, but I don't think (Oilers owner) Bud Adams can fire me now, so I'm OK with it."

Kansas City coach Herm Edwards, a former NFL cornerback, described the Wonderlic as something he was lucky enough to have avoided.

"They didn't have it when I was playing," he deadpanned. "I went to Cal-Berkeley, so I probably wouldn't have passed."

First-year New York Jets coach Eric Mangini, a former assistant under Bill Belichick in New England, believes the test results can be deceiving.

"I've been around players that have had low Wonderlic scores that have been some of the smartest players I ever coached," Mangini said. "And that's always the difficulty of looking at that score and trying to define a player by that score. I can think of 4-5 guys who had what would be considered extremely low scores.

"If you get to know them, you're thinking: How could he possibly grade out at this? He's so much smarter than his score indicates. Then you have dumb smart guys. They've got great scores but they can't figure it out. They would do great if they had to write a paper before each game. But to go execute the information, they just can't get it. As smart as they are and as good as they are in the classroom, they can't put it into action."

Buffalo coach Dick Jauron agreed.

"I've seen terrific players that had low scores," he said. "I've seen players that can't tie their cleats that have high scores. They can't play."

Dolphins defensive end Kevin Carter conceded there could be some correlation between the test and how it translates to the field.

However, the 12-year veteran wasn't willing to be judge and jury for a college prospect with a low score. Not everyone learns the same way, or comes from the same environment.

"It basically tests how you think, how you make adjustments and your adaptability to your surroundings," Carter said. "Maybe, it can translate. But maybe, you can take a guy who grew up in a foster home. Maybe he doesn't score real high on the Wonderlic. But you know what, he's learned how to survive and he got here.

"And he's a hell of a player because of it. I think those things are best left where they are, and let the people who have to worry about scores and their evaluations worry about that."

As for that safety Saban helped, he went on to have a long NFL career — with somebody else.

"He got picked before we could get him," Saban said. "Somebody else obviously tutored him up."
 
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/draft/2006-04-16-wonderlic-feature_x.htm

body88

  • Guest
Re: NFL Combine
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2009, 05:42:39 PM »
I don't need to admit that I'm "wrong."  I'm expressing an opinion.  So are you, except you're trying to state your opinion as fact. 

And yes I am saying that a so-called intelligence test used by the NFL at the combine is absolutely worthless.  The fact players with great scores suck and players with terrible scores are great shows how irrelevant the test is.  You cannot show any proven link between the Wonderlic and success as an NFL player.  How in the world does answering 50 questions in 30 minutes that have nothing to do with football establish that a player will be good or bad?  Pretty silly if you ask me.  I'm not sure how it started, but tradition is a very hard thing to break. 

Giving your opinion is one thing.  Trying to turn it into some scientific conclusion is another.

And no, you can't simply tally up the number of players with "good" scores and draw any sort of reliable conclusion.   

Ryan Leaf scored 27.  Worst QB in NFL history and he nearly doubled Dan Marino's score.     


Beach....we are having a discussion correct?  In that discussion we are using facts and logic to try and win an "argument".  You said that the wonderlick is a test that is "worthless".  I said that the test was not worthless and I posted a very large list of good to best ever QB's who did well on the wonderlick.  You inturn posted a list of good to great QB's that did not do well on the wonderlick.  I then countered by posting x5 times as many good to best ever QB's who did do well on the wonderlick......so, it's safe to say that roughly x5 times more good to best ever QB's do well on the wonderlick than they do poorly on the test.  This proves that the wonderlick is not a useless test, because out of the best QB's over the last 10-15 years (and beyond) about 75% of them did well to above average on the wonderlick.  On that list is 5 of the greatest QB's to ever play football.

Further more, you are calling tests worthless that every NFL team requests and spends a ton of time and money on.  They would not go if id did not help them.....it's as simple as that.  If the 40 didn't matter then every coach and their brother would not be out there with a stopwatch, and the wonderlick would not be given to players.