Interesting Christian views on Waterboarding

[Hedgehog]

Is it okay for a Christian to use waterboarding and torture?

Would Jesus torture his enemies?

WWJD? What would Jesus do?

Bush, a confessed Christian, orderered torture.

Was that ok?

The reason I'm asking is because I haven't seen any of the well known Christians of this board speak out against the practice of torture.

I'm not gonna draw the conclusion that you actually support torture just yet - but it would be interesting to see your thoughts on the matter.

Why or why not you think the use of torture is ok.

Also, what kind of support you can find for your point of view in your faith.




I found a few pieces on the net on this matter:

A Christian soldier:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/jwalking/2007/11/a-soldier-on-waterboarding.html


Huckabee was against waterboarding, due to his Christian beliefs:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/would-jesus-waterboard/


A Christian Conservative making a stand in a Christian Conservative mag:
http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/004068.html



BTW, if you care to know, I do not support torture. Being an Atheist, I base this strictly on moral values and common sense.

[big L dawg]

ever read the old testament waterboarding is pretty tame in comparison to the shit thats in that book.

[Dos Equis]

I don't think it's a Christian issue.  It's a safety issue.  I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives. 

[big L dawg]

I don't think it's a Christian issue.  It's a safety issue.  I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives. 

so mixing prayer/religion with senate mettings were bills are passed that effect people of all different beliefs is a OK.
but America's stance on torture don't need to be addressed by religious leaders or there members....talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it to.

[Butterbean]

Would Jesus torture his enemies?

WWJD? What would Jesus do?

I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.




I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails. 

I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.

If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.

If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.

[Hedgehog]

I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.




I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails. 

I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.

If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.

If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.

How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?

[Hedgehog]

I believe Jesus wouldn't torture anyone because he wouldn't need to torture anyone....He would already know everything.




I looked around online to see what waterboarding entails. 

I guess I can't make a fully informed statement having not been waterboarded myself, but it looks like people are not actually physically injured during the process.

If some criminal had buried my mom alive in a hole in the ground and the only way to get him to tell me where she was would be to waterboard him, I think I would try to do it.

If making a terrorist believe they were drowning for a few minutes would be the only way to save hundreds or thousands of people from getting burned to death, it would be hard for me to say it shouldn't be done.

How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?

[Migs]

in all honesty, tortue has been around and will be around forever.  It is a necessity.  As americans we think that it is horrible and don't practice it. In realty we alwyas have, we just rarely do it on our own soil or use our own agents to carry it out.  People talk about the geneva convention and how the rules of war should be applied.  Sorry, but rules are useless if only one side is using them.  War is war, it's dirty and violent.  If waterboarding or flogging a prisoner can save a city then so be it.  We have become a societ that is weak when it comes to reality.  Also, i beleive that you keep religion out of politics.  

[Butterbean]

How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?

Hopefully I would never have to find out first hand.  But I would consider which would be the lesser of the two evils. 

Which is worse?  To make a terrorist or criminal very uncomfortable for short bursts of time or to do nothing and allow hundreds or thousands of people (or even one) to die a horrible death?

[Migs]

when in doubt, the terrorist/criminal must go down

[Dos Equis]

so mixing prayer/religion with senate mettings were bills are passed that effect people of all different beliefs is a OK.
but America's stance on torture don't need to be addressed by religious leaders or there members....talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it to.

Sorry.  Don't see a connection.  The question was about the Christian response to waterboarding, not prayer in the state senate.

What do you mean by "have your cake and eat it to"?  

[Butterbean]

What do you mean by "have your cake and eat it to"?  

mmmm....cake

[Migs]

mmmm....cake

ROFL, i went shopping today and almost bought one.  Now i really want some. 

[Dos Equis]

mmmm....cake

 

[MCWAY]

Sorry.  Don't see a connection.  The question was about the Christian response to waterboarding, not prayer in the state senate.
 

Furthermore, it's Team Obama who has defined waterboarding as "torture". Now, this administration is trying to retroactively punish its predecessor for doing something that was well within the law to do.

As for President Bush, he took an oath before God, to protect this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. He felt that this method was the best (and perhaps the only) method to get these terrorists to talk, therefore thwart their plans to commit atrocities that would have made 9/11 look like a cat-fight at Hooters.

My more pressing concern is that Obama is hardly doing what he campaigned he would do, namely move beyond the petty stuff and get with the business of protecting this nation. He's sucking up to the far-left, who won't rest until they get their revenge on Bush and his administration.

in all honesty, tortue has been around and will be around forever.  It is a necessity.  As americans we think that it is horrible and don't practice it. In realty we alwyas have, we just rarely do it on our own soil or use our own agents to carry it out.  People talk about the geneva convention and how the rules of war should be applied.  Sorry, but rules are useless if only one side is using them.  War is war, it's dirty and violent.  If waterboarding or flogging a prisoner can save a city then so be it.  We have become a societ that is weak when it comes to reality.  Also, i beleive that you keep religion out of politics.  

I disagree. Again, as Dr King said, the church should not be conscience of the state (not its master or its servant).

If Dr. King had taken your advice, there'd be no civil rights movement for black people.

Politics is shaped on what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong. Guess what helps to shape that? RELIGION!!

Religious belief is why Jefferson stated that you and I are endowed by the Creator with inalienable rights, which you can't take from me and I can't take from you.

[MCWAY]

How do you combine this rather problem-oriented life philosophy with Christian morals and values?

That’s easy!! There’s nothing Christian about putting tens of thousands of your countrymen at risk (especially, if you’ve sworn before God to protect them), by playing nice with enemy combatants to placate foreign critics (which is really at the heart of this issue).

The U.N. will not feed your babies or give them shelter, if you get blown to bits. France, Spain, and, Germany will not dispatch the troops to avenge your fallen loved ones.

[Hugo Chavez]

I don't think it's a Christian issue.  It's a safety issue.  I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives. 

LOL, you guys separate when convenient and in other areas are totally ok with Christian values applied toward government.

[Migs]

I disagree. Again, as Dr King said, the church should not be conscience of the state (not its master or its servant).

If Dr. King had taken your advice, there'd be no civil rights movement for black people.

Politics is shaped on what you believe is right and what you believe is wrong. Guess what helps to shape that? RELIGION!!

Religious belief is why Jefferson stated that you and I are endowed by the Creator with inalienable rights, which you can't take from me and I can't take from you.

UNtil churches start paying taxes they have no right to say anything about goverment. 
As for Dr. king taking my advice and civil rights movement, it's a different issue. 
I beleieve his wording was more of a protective use of literary licesnce so that any governmoent structure/party would follow it as to not upset the public.  The creator did not grant us civil rights.  The founding fathers did. 

[Dos Equis]

LOL, you guys separate when convenient and in other areas are totally ok with Christian values applied toward government.

Separate what?  I'm not the one trying to make the connection in the first place. 

[Migs]

think about it as really aggressive baptism.

[MCWAY]

UNtil churches start paying taxes they have no right to say anything about goverment. 

Oh yes, they do.

As for Dr. king taking my advice and civil rights movement, it's a different issue. 

You contradicted yourself. By your previous statement, Dr. King supposedly had no right to say anything about government, because his church was tax-exempt.

I beleieve his wording was more of a protective use of literary licesnce so that any governmoent structure/party would follow it as to not upset the public.  The creator did not grant us civil rights.  The founding fathers did. 

Your belief is dead wrong.

The founding fathers, Jefferson in particular, are the ones who made that statement. There is no such thing as inalienable rights, without a Creator who bestows such on all men.

If man is the source of civil rights, all I need is enough political, financial, or military muscle and I can STRIP YOU of your rights, thus they are not "inalienable".

[Straw Man]

I don't think it's a Christian issue.  It's a safety issue.  I have no problem with our defense folks using this tactic to save American lives. 

well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.

I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God

Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.

Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).

[Straw Man]

Furthermore, it's Team Obama who has defined waterboarding as "torture". Now, this administration is trying to retroactively punish its predecessor for doing something that was well within the law to do.

waterboarding was defined as torture hundreds of years ago.

It was the Bush Admin lawyers who attempted to re-define and then pretend it was legal

come on McWay - you know this stuff already

[MCWAY]

well first off - torture (including waterboarding) is not an effective way to get actionable intelligence so it's not a "safety" issue.

I thought the bible was the infallable Word of God

Shit - your Saviour was tortured to death for your sins.

Did you ever read any of these versus in your bible study classes:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you (Luke 6:27-28).

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse (Romans 12:14).

We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it (1 Corinthians 4:12).

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21).

Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble (1 John 2:9-10).

Do you realize how utterly RIDICULOUS you sound, trying to use these verses as an excuse to justify letting terrorists kill our people?

These verses are not used or preached to people in a WAR-TIME setting. As far as feeding our enemies go, didn't a news report state that these guys gained an average of about 18 pounds, while locked up in Gitmo? So, it appears that Khalid Sheikh Muhammad didn't miss too many meals.

The term, "Love one another", in no way or form, means stand idly by and let your people (whom you swore BEFORE THIS VERY SAME GOD TO PROTECT FROM ALL ENEMIES) get blown to bits.

[MCWAY]

waterboarding was defined as torture hundreds of years ago.

It was the Bush Admin lawyers who attempted to re-define and then pretend it was legal

come on McWay - you know this stuff already

I'm sorry!! Since when does NANCY PELOSI work for the Bush adminstration's legal team?