Author Topic: Clen for the experienced Male  (Read 8682 times)

MCat

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Clen for the experienced Male
« on: October 15, 2005, 09:15:43 AM »
I see how you guys mostly think clen should not be used by females and the general public just trying to shed a few pounds.  Well I have some that I have been thinking about taking and I am a pretty experienced bodybuilder who is muscular and relatively lean, and I want to take it to the next level of fat loss.  I am about 9-11% and want to hit the 4-6%...Should I consider using it or is it just not worth it in the end. 
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mem

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Re: NO experienced BB would use clen this way.
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2005, 09:30:35 AM »
Clen IS like fancy ephedrine . . . save your money . . .seriously

Your dlusional IF you think something like that IS
going to get you in the realm of contest shape.
The same $$$ that you would waste on Clen
could go towards something capable of this.

You  NEED  R E A L  DRUGS - stroids to acheive this.

Let me guess your supplier (that makes gobs of money)
selling this sh!t to you - IS the one telling you this.

I don't mean to burst you bubble - get real
about your approach to bodybuilding.

???QUESTIONS FOR YOU???
How old are you?
How many year of BB experience do you have under your belt?
Have ever done anabolic steroids?
Or are you ready for this?
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MCat

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2005, 09:36:29 AM »
Dude, I have done a good share of gear, and am in no way a delusional beginner that thinks clen is a miracle drug.  I am 510 about 180 and deadlift a good 550.  I have earned my stripes.  I did not waste my money on the shit either.  I live in L.A.(Real close to Mexico you know) and me and my buddies literally are swimming in gear, and I got 100 clen tabs (10mg) given to me by a guy who was short on dough and owed me some cash for real gear.  I was just curious if I should even take it or just sell it to some shmo like you described
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massivemann

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2005, 09:47:18 AM »
just an fyi clen doesnt come in mg it comes in mcg

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MCat

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2005, 09:49:44 AM »
your totally right...But what do you think.
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massivemann

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2005, 09:52:46 AM »
your totally right...But what do you think.
i dont think you need it at 5'10 180lbs just diet harder or addd some more cardio..maybe in the middle of the nite to shock your body...


your not doing a comp. anytime soon right? so just do cardio
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mem

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Re: Clen the drug for girls
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2005, 10:56:55 AM »
I am 5' 8" at 200 lbs. <10% bf. @ 45 years old.

A are potentially "thin" already you may disappear if *you cut*
definately DO more juice get added muscle and then
think *about cuts*

Got to build a wall before you try and paint it!!!

You never said your age?
and your actual experience?
what are scared of?

Sell that girly drug, buy a bottle of real stuff
that you WILL put some muscle on with.
It (clen) is worth what you pay(ed) (0) for it.
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MCat

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2005, 01:13:08 PM »
I got ya...I am not a big clen propenent, I was just curious...Jeez...

I am 26 years old and have done about 5 full cycles (12 weeks a pop) over the last 3 years.  Test and some anabolic and that is usually it...Nolva for PCT and once I threw in HCG and I think I will continue doing that...That is my experience.  Sorry if I am a wimp dude.  I was just curious if clen was in my best interests but obviously it isnt. 

Peace

Mike
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freakfestMD

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2005, 02:40:21 PM »
Clen can certainly be used on its own, like ephedra, and since you already have it...

Clen is a stimulant that interacts exclusively with beta2-adrenoreceptors (this differentiates it from stimulants that can stimulate a variety of receptors such as serotonin, dopamine, etc).  Not only does it contribute to fat loss, but it also does have anabolic properties.  It increases direct fat release from fat cells, increases thermogenesis and increases muscle hypertrophy.

One problem, however, is that clen's effect is dependent on the number of available beta2-adrenoreceptors, and when used regularly these receptors become downregulated and hence unavailable, reducing clen's effects over time.  This explains the typical bb cycle of 3-5 days on followed by 2-3 days off to allow recovery of the beta2 receptors.

More interested parties are referred to the following article for more information:

Hinkle RT et al Skeletal muscle hypertrophy and anti-atrophy effects of clenbuterol are mediated by the beta2-adrenergic receptor.  Muscle Nerve, 2002 May;25(5):729-734.

mem

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2005, 04:06:31 PM »

Clen can certainly be used on its own, like ephedra, and since you already have it...

Clen is a stimulant that interacts exclusively with beta2-adrenoreceptors (this differentiates it from stimulants that can stimulate a variety of receptors such as serotonin, dopamine, etc). Not only does it contribute to fat loss, but it also does have anabolic properties. It increases direct fat release from fat cells, increases thermogenesis and increases muscle hypertrophy.

One problem, however, is that clen's effect is dependent on the number of available beta2-adrenoreceptors, and when used regularly these receptors become downregulated and hence unavailable, reducing clen's effects over time. This explains the typical bb cycle of 3-5 days on followed by 2-3 days off to allow recovery of the beta2 receptors.

More interested parties are referred to the following article for more information:

Hinkle RT et al Skeletal muscle hypertrophy and anti-atrophy effects of clenbuterol are mediated by the beta2-adrenergic receptor. Muscle Nerve, 2002 May;25(5):729-734.


Thanks brother!!
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MCat

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2005, 03:38:48 PM »
Will Clen use screw your metabolism permanently.  I have read that it can and can't effect your fat burning potential for good...What do you guys think.
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FilipH

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2005, 06:40:47 AM »
It won't fuck your metabolism up.  It might do it, but roids can also do a lot in theory.   Don't think to much of clen.  For me its just like a good old ECA stack but this one can give you the shakes which is extremely annoying.  Start with a low dose and see how you react on it.   Try it on a weekend, since you don't want to shake unexpectaly while going to work.

I'd rather recommend it on a two weeks on - two weeks off and not by a coupple days.  I've read a study some time ago, that says it doesn't leave your body fast enough for a "3 days off" to work.   You are going to get resistant very fast, so you need that off time.  Do some more research on it before you use it.

Had it, didn't like it.  Might be different for you though. 

You want something stronger, try to get some PPA or speed (wouldn't recommend the last one though, since its stupid and does not belong with bodybuilders like us.  But one cannot deny it works.).


Crazy-canuck

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2005, 10:08:45 AM »
I see how you guys mostly think clen should not be used by females and the general public just trying to shed a few pounds.  Well I have some that I have been thinking about taking and I am a pretty experienced bodybuilder who is muscular and relatively lean, and I want to take it to the next level of fat loss.  I am about 9-11% and want to hit the 4-6%...Should I consider using it or is it just not worth it in the end. 

Male or Female?

What are your long term goals?

Are you planning on competing in the future?

How many cycles have you done and when was your last and what did it consist of?

Is your diet in check?  How many cals/macro breakdown?

If you don't need drugs then don't take them at all.   Maybe you can get the results you desire by eating better and training with more intensity.

I just don't think that drugs are always the answer and if you dont have the other stuff in order.

If you are still deadset on running clen thats fine but you should be running it as part of a larger cycle too.  OK.

Post up and I can help you.

CC.

MCat

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2005, 04:44:00 PM »
Male

Goals-Muscular, Lean pysique...Size is secondary but not unimportant

Definitely planning on competing in 06

5 cycles of 12 weeks a peice in about 3 years

I am 26 years old

diet is 2850 bulking with 50-40-10 Pro/carbs/fat cycled with 75-5-20 pro/carb/fat

1800-2100 cutting with same breakdown.  (I have an ifbb pro dietician/trainer do my diet year round and it really seams to work for me and him)

five foot ten with 180 frame.  I am a little smooth for my shape at 9%-11%bf...I was going to run the clen for a short time to try and bust down to 4-7% and then start bulking with the rebound

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2005, 02:00:46 AM »
The is NO human evidence to support that clen is anabolic or anti-catabolic. If anhyone is aware of such then please post.

There is some evidence that it indirectly inceases norepinephrine and hence a stimulant type effect.

freakfestMD

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2005, 06:22:34 AM »
I provided a direct reference from the medical literature to support my statements at the bottom of my post.  I can add a few more if you actually read that article and seek more knowledge.

MCat

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2005, 07:21:27 AM »
But freakfest, that study was on rats.  I think he was looking for a human study.  I would be interested in finding a human study on clen effects as well.  As far as anecdotal experience from other BB'ers I have heard nothing but "Yes clen is slightly anti catabolic," but that is merely heresay. 
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muscle19

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2005, 11:14:05 AM »
if ur going to do clen, always do it with aas, it is catabolic and thats not what u want. eca stack can be done byitself but again, i wouldnt do any of these without a proper aas cycle/stack.


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mem

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2005, 01:17:21 PM »

I got ya...I am not a big clen propenent, I was just curious...Jeez...

I am 26 years old and have done about 5 full cycles (12 weeks a pop) over the last 3 years.  Test and some anabolic and that is usually it...Nolva for PCT and once I threw in HCG and I think I will continue doing that...That is my experience.  Sorry if I am a wimp dude.  I was just curious if clen was in my best interests but obviously it isnt. 

Peace

Mike


Hey BIG Mike

I apperciate your response and honesty. I was not trying to bust you ball or be demeaning in any way.
I just was feeling exhasperated (trying to) convey my feelings. You obviously ARE dialed in terms of
experience, goals and plan. Everything HAS a place, (I think) your are advanced beyond this drug.

Best of luck with your program. BTW, If you do use the clen, (for sure) report back to me
(or this group) and let us know how this works for you.

Mike

PS I have said (?somewhere?) that I feel the strong? emphasis for clen
is more likely based in that women have few(er) safe AAS choices.
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Morpheus.

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2005, 02:56:33 AM »
Treatment of beta1-adrenergic receptor knockout mice with clenbuterol also resulted in statistically significant hypertrophy of the innervated tibialis anterior and medial gastrocnemius muscles and inhibition of denervation-induced atrophy of these muscles. In contrast, in beta2-adrenergic receptor knockout mice and in mice lacking both the beta1- and beta2-adrenergic receptors, clenbuterol treatment did not result in hypertrophy of the innervated tibialis anterior and medial gastrocnemius muscles, nor did it inhibit denervation-induced atrophy in these muscles.

Still looking for that ever elusive human evidence.

Not too many huge asthmatic walking around??

As long as one appreciates that Clen is catabolic, they will be OK.

I put clen in the "dirty" drugs category but thats another story for another day.

freakfestMD

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2005, 04:47:55 AM »
Morpheus--great points.  Not too many huge asthmatics walking around made me LOL.  MCat is also quite correct here.  I did not find any human studies in a rather exhaustive search of medline.  Mostly rats, some chickens and dogs.  Animal models do have applications to humans, of course, but many studies that show a strong effect on one species may show no or some opposite effect on another. Granted, we as humans seem to have no problem injecting vials of gear with a silhoutte of a cow or horse on the label  ;D

Collectively, studies do seem to show that, in rats, clen does have an anabolic, or more accurately, an anti-catabolic, effect on certain muscle groups.  Of note, the greatest effects are usually seen in models where disuse atrophy has been induced by hindlimb unloading.  For example, one study showed enhanced hybrid-fiber types in rat soleus after 14 days of hindlimb unloading, with a complex remodelling of muscle types that promoted a combination of both slow and fast myosin heavy chain isoforms within individual fibers (Piquet et al. Can J Physiol Pharmacol 2004).  These studies suggest a role in treatment of (or prevention of) disuse atrophy associated with certain disease states.  The question remains, then, is whether an effect is seen in loaded muscle as well.

Indeed, this effect has been shown to be mediated through an inhibitory effect on the ubiquitin-proteasome pathway. Upregulation of this pathway has been demonstrated in rats randomized to hindlimb unloading as well as those allowed to weightbear normally (Yimlamai et al J Appl Physiol 2005). Both groups demonstrated hypertrophy of all muscle groups tested, especially in fast twitch muscles.  Of note, this effect was not mediated through local production of IGF-1. Similar findings have been observed in canine cardiac muscle (Sharif et al J Surg Res 2005).

Sounds promising so far, right?

Well, the information also gets a little fuzzy. 

In another study, chronic administration of clen in albino mice did increase body mass and anabolic effect on gastroc and cardiac muscle.  However, histopathologic sections demonstrated extensive collagen infiltration and areas of myonecrosis (muscle death) in the subendocardium.  Not good... (Physiol Res 2005).  But wait, there' more:  High doses of clen have been shown to induce this necrotic myocyte death in the heart as well as slow-twitch skeletal muscle in the rat as well.  In male Wistar rats subjected to a single subcutaneous dose of clen, myocyte (muscle cell) apoptosis (i.e. "cell-death") was first detected only 2hrs after administration, peaking at 4 hrs.  The effect was dose- dependent (Burniston et al, Muscle Nerve 2005).  There are a host of related studies suggesting exactly the same thing.

Oh, and one more interesting finding:  In broiler chickens, clen caused a downregulation of testicular androgen receptors (Shiavone et al, J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr 2004).

The only human study I came across described the death of a teenage bodybuilder using clen.  Death occurred by myocardial infarction.


So, you will have to decide for yourself whether clen is worth it.  Personally, I prefer eating clean and doing some aerobics, but what the hell do I know ;) 


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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2005, 04:52:21 AM »
Male

Goals-Muscular, Lean pysique...Size is secondary but not unimportant

Definitely planning on competing in 06

5 cycles of 12 weeks a peice in about 3 years

I am 26 years old

diet is 2850 bulking with 50-40-10 Pro/carbs/fat cycled with 75-5-20 pro/carb/fat

1800-2100 cutting with same breakdown.  (I have an ifbb pro dietician/trainer do my diet year round and it really seams to work for me and him)

five foot ten with 180 frame.  I am a little smooth for my shape at 9%-11%bf...I was going to run the clen for a short time to try and bust down to 4-7% and then start bulking with the rebound



Honestly I would forget about clen for right now, you don't need it at this point.  If you are not competeing right away there is no need to put your body through more stress then necessary.  I am sure yuo can reach your goal 7% naturally without using Clen.  It is unncessary to get so low bf at this point.  You need size and to do that you need more cals.  I would talk to your guy about upping your cals to 3,000 and up it by 500 cals every month or so.  I am talking good calories here.

Your Macro nutrient breakdown is fine for a bulker but when you are cutting you need to adjust your carbs and up your protien.  60/30/10 or even 65/30/5 with your fats coming from EFA's when cutting up.

To sum it all up.  I would start a lean bulking program.

CC.

MCat

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2005, 08:59:49 AM »
Thanks fo the help fellas.  I got rid of the clen yesterday, and am sticking to creatine and dessicated liver tabs until November 1st when I will hit a Test/Tren/Dbol cycle hard, and finish with Test/Var...

What do you think
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Crazy-canuck

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2005, 09:22:07 AM »
At least it sounds like you've read something.   Sounds like a reasonable idea.

I wonder why there are so many idiots on this board.  Funny how none of them post anything that has anything to do with knowledge though.

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freakfestMD

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Re: Clen for the experienced Male
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2005, 01:54:04 PM »
I respectfully disagree.