Author Topic: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair  (Read 37244 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2006, 06:27:00 PM »
Am I an expert on what subject?  Homosexuality?  I guess the answer is "no"?  I don't know what it takes to be an expert in homosexuality. . .  and I'm afraid to ask.   :)  What I believe is the conduct is wrong, that we are talking about conduct not innate qualities, and that there is no proof that people are "born gay."  It's a lifestyle choice.  That's pretty much all I need to know.  I have gay friends and will soon have a gay coworker (or two), but that will not change my views on homosexuality.  I respect my gay friends' right to do what they want in the privacy of their bedrooms and they respect my beliefs, even though they disagree. 

I'm an open book.  I don't hide my beliefs.  I will say, however, that I spent a year working next to a woman with a gay son about ten years ago.  She cried every time she talked about what a tough life the kid had.  That had a huge impact on me and how I deal with open homosexuals and the subject in general.  She and I are still friends and respect each other a great deal.  She knows my views, but disagrees with me.     

I'm going to look into the group of former homosexuals.  I doubt they are all lying.   

BayGBM

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2006, 07:22:46 PM »
Am I an expert on what subject?  Homosexuality?  I guess the answer is "no"?  I don't know what it takes to be an expert in homosexuality. . .    It's a lifestyle choice.  That's pretty much all I need to know. 

Interesting.  You sound earnest (which is why I’m even pursing this) but I don’t think you’re making a lot of sense.

At what age do you think gays and lesbians make this lifestyle choice you’re so sure we are making?  At what age did you choose to be a heterosexual?

I have seen kids as young as young as 4 and 5 playing on a playground and after a few minutes of observation have been able to identify which ones are gay.  Fast forward 10 years and surprise, they turn out to be gay.  Some parents of kids as young as two often report noticing a “difference” in one of their kids.  A difference that eventually shows itself as gay or lesbian identity.

Dick Cheney and Alan Keyes (both staunch conservatives) have daughters that, despite the parents' best efforts, turned out to be lesbians.  You mean to tell me that you believe that all these people: young & old in every corner of the globe from antiquity to the present (not to mention all over the animal kingdom) are all consciously making the same lifestyle choice?  If you really believe that, you would be welcome at Reverend Haggard’s church. 

But you would not be welcome in a biology lab.  I have never met anyone with an advanced degree in the bioloical sciences who thinks all these animals and people (including two year olds) are all making the same choice.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: homosexuality is part of the diversity of nature’s portfolio; diversity is written into the nature of biological systems.  In other words, nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population.  Whether or not people understand that reason is irrelevant.

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #102 on: November 05, 2006, 07:47:01 PM »
I used to think it was something a person chose.  But the more gay people I meet, the more I see it's just somethign they're born with.  They get urges around the same sex, and they like that group.  Period. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #103 on: November 05, 2006, 08:37:36 PM »
Interesting.  You sound earnest (which is why I’m even pursing this) but I don’t think you’re making a lot of sense.

At what age do you think gays and lesbians make this lifestyle choice you’re so sure we are making?  At what age did you choose to be a heterosexual?

I have seen kids as young as young as 4 and 5 playing on a playground and after a few minutes of observation have been able to identify which ones are gay.  Fast forward 10 years and surprise, they turn out to be gay.  Some parents of kids as young as two often report noticing a “difference” in one of their kids.  A difference that eventually shows itself as gay or lesbian identity.

Dick Cheney and Alan Keyes (both staunch conservatives) have daughters that, despite the parents' best efforts, turned out to be lesbians.  You mean to tell me that you believe that all these people: young & old in every corner of the globe from antiquity to the present (not to mention all over the animal kingdom) are all consciously making the same lifestyle choice?  If you really believe that, you would be welcome at Reverend Haggard’s church. 

But you would not be welcome in a biology lab.  I have never met anyone with an advanced degree in the bioloical sciences who thinks all these animals and people (including two year olds) are all making the same choice.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: homosexuality is part of the diversity of nature’s portfolio; diversity is written into the nature of biological systems.  In other words, nature has a reason for producing a homosexual population.  Whether or not people understand that reason is irrelevant.

You are engaging in an intelligent discussion without all the needless invective we see on this board by some of the knuckleheads, which is the only reason I am even discussing this with you

I chose to be a male heterosexual when I was born with an X and Y, just like you.  At some point, you chose to have sex with men.  I never made that choice.  I'm not sure why you did, or why others choose to do so.  I do know there are many who engage in the homosexual lifestyle who stop, and live as heterosexuals.

I have no idea why Cheney and Keyes have gay children.  I don't know precisely what causes people to make that choice.  What I've read is it is often related to issues in the household, be it abuse, an absent father, a negligent father, the lack of intimacy, or any other number of reasons.  Personally, I think it comes down to a strong, God fearing father.  I cannot prove that scientifically or otherwise.  Just my personal opinion. 

I also think there is a religious element, but that might be more appropriate for the "religious discussion" board.

My opinions may not be welcome in a biology lab, but the lab has provided no proof that homosexuality is genetic. 

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #104 on: November 05, 2006, 10:42:23 PM »

24KT

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #105 on: November 05, 2006, 11:16:29 PM »
People should be supportive of this homo, instead of blasting him for not coming out.

Something's fcuked up with this society when a fag like this guy doesn't feel comfortable being public about being a homo.

YIP
Zack

When you're innocent of any wrong doing, yet forced to walk a gauntlet,
...you're always able to distinguish the truly guilty, because s/he will be the one who hits you the hardest.

For years, he has been at the forefront of the anti-gay agenda.
With his history, how could he possibly feel comfortable being public about his sexuality?

It's like a light skinned Black man heading up the KKK for years. Do you really think he'd want his ethnicity to become public after years of such high-profile religious involvement with the KKK? That would be the secret he'd vow to take to the grave.
w

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #106 on: November 05, 2006, 11:17:05 PM »
How fitting. Hate the gays and all along he's one of them.  ;D Monster irony.

That's the nature of homophobia.
The more they profess to hating them, ...the greater the chances are that they are one of them.  ;)
w

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #107 on: November 05, 2006, 11:17:44 PM »
Not unless they rewrite the Bible. 

Why can't they? ...it's not like so many other people haven't done it throughout the years.  :P
w

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #108 on: November 05, 2006, 11:18:17 PM »
Regardless of your personal interpretation of the Bible, this man's church agrees with the parts that condemn homosexuality.  Also, he violated criminal law by buying narcotics.  The only responsible thing to do was remove him from his post, particularly since he hasn't taken complete responsibility for his conduct. 

When are we gonna apply the same standards to W? huh? When? damnit, a gal can only hold her breath for so long?
w

Victor VonDoom

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2006, 03:56:59 AM »
The truth will out.

Doom approves.

OzmO

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2006, 07:30:16 AM »
Why would someone, (a man) "choose" to do something as disgusting as have sex with a man if he didn't have a physical, mental and emotional, predisposition to do so?

That pastor is a HOMO, born that way with GOD blessing and that church has taught him to deny himself which has caused him to live a double life.  He sees himself as unworthy of GOD and cannot help his desires.  He would be so much happier if he just divorced his wife, quit the church that tells he's a bad person for feeling the way he does, and get a boyfriend.

But he won't do that.  He'll crumble under pressure from the church and his family and will try and be a "good" little Christan and certainly repeat what he did.

It's guaranteed.

BayGBM

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2006, 12:25:15 PM »
Why would someone, (a man) "choose" to do something as disgusting as have sex with a man if he didn't have a physical, mental and emotional, predisposition to do so?

That pastor is a HOMO, born that way with GOD blessing and that church has taught him to deny himself which has caused him to live a double life.  He sees himself as unworthy of GOD and cannot help his desires.  He would be so much happier if he just divorced his wife, quit the church that tells he's a bad person for feeling the way he does, and get a boyfriend.

But he won't do that.  He'll crumble under pressure from the church and his family and will try and be a "good" little Christan and certainly repeat what he did.

It's guaranteed.

Yep.

He's a good candidate for Beach Bum's gay-to-straight "conversion" therapy.  Then he'll start preaching about how all gays can undergo the same therapy and find their way to (his) god. ::)

Dos Equis

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #112 on: November 06, 2006, 12:30:55 PM »
Yep.

He's a good candidate for Beach Bum's gay-to-straight "conversion" therapy.  Then he'll start preaching about how all gays can undergo the same therapy and find their way to (his) god. ::)

Ah the infamous straw man.   ::)

OzmO

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #113 on: November 06, 2006, 12:50:38 PM »
Yep.

He's a good candidate for Beach Bum's gay-to-straight "conversion" therapy.  Then he'll start preaching about how all gays can undergo the same therapy and find their way to (his) god. ::)

What's tough for people is that to admit that being homosexual is more of a physical and mental condition rather than a choice would be to de-value the teachings of the Bible. 

Becuase how could GOD create a homosexual and then at the same time make being a homosexual a sin?

So it must be a choice!  lol

But then again he did  he allow "original sin" be born into everyone so that it would be impossible to live up to his standard.

And they call this the "word of God"  HAHAHAHAHHA

Classic BRAIN F**K by the authors of the BIBLE to control people and feed a religion

Dos Equis

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #114 on: November 06, 2006, 01:00:32 PM »
What's tough for people is that to admit that being homosexual is more of a physical and mental condition rather than a choice would be to de-value the teachings of the Bible. 

Becuase how could GOD create a homosexual and then at the same time make being a homosexual a sin?

So it must be a choice!  lol

But then again he did  he allow "original sin" be born into everyone so that it would be impossible to live up to his standard.

And they call this the "word of God"  HAHAHAHAHHA

Classic BRAIN F**K by the authors of the BIBLE to control people and feed a religion

He didn't create homosexuals.  He created people with the power to choose.  That's actually one of the great things about Christianity.  You can choose to believe or not.  It is completely within your control.   

BayGBM

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2006, 01:01:39 PM »
What's tough for people is that to admit that being homosexual is more of a physical and mental condition rather than a choice would be to de-value the teachings of the Bible. 

Actually, I don’t think that’s so tough.

Even people who claim to be very religious routinely ignore many parts of the Bible they do not like (rules on eating certain foods, premarital sex, wearing certain garments, divorce, etc.) and they do so with no qualms.  They cherry pick the tenants of their “faith” and in so doing show it to be little more than window dressing.

Look at the thread on the Landscaping company that says they don't take gay customers.  Presumably, this decision is based on their faith, but will they work with bisexuals?  Swingers?  Do they work with married men who have sex with male prostitutes on the side?  What about married men who get massages from male prostitutes?  What would they do now if they were in the middle of a landscaping job for Rev. and Mrs. Ted Haggard?

Do they inquire about the sexual orientation and moral standing of every potential customer before accepting a landscaping job? 

They probably have gays working for them. What will they do when their son or daughter turns out to be gay?

Their position is so stupid it's laughable.  ;D

OzmO

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #116 on: November 06, 2006, 01:07:36 PM »
He didn't create homosexuals.  He created people with the power to choose.  That's actually one of the great things about Christianity.  You can choose to believe or not.  It is completely within your control.   

That's the point.  To accept that homosexuality is not a choice would be to accept it was something they were born with therfore created by GOD and would contradict the bible even though there is ample evidence and logic that it is something other than a choice.

That's right, we are bAD BAD sinful people who are lost with out the leadership of the church who speaks for GOD........  claissic brain ****

OzmO

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #117 on: November 06, 2006, 01:09:23 PM »
Actually, I don’t think that’s so tough.

Even people who claim to be very religious routinely ignore many parts of the Bible they do not like (rules on eating certain foods, premarital sex, wearing certain garments, divorce, etc.) and they do so with no qualms.  They cherry pick the tenants of their “faith” and in so doing show it to be little more than window dressing.

Look at the thread on the Landscaping company that says they don't take gay customers.  Presumably, this decision is based on their faith, but will they work with bisexuals?  Swingers?  Do they work with married men who have sex with male prostitutes on the side?  What about married men who get massages from male prostitutes?  What would they do now if they were in the middle of a landscaping job for Rev. and Mrs. Ted Haggard?

Do they inquire about the sexual orientation and moral standing of every potential customer before accepting a landscaping job? 

They probably have gays working for them. What will they do when their son or daughter turns out to be gay?

Their position is so stupid it's laughable.  ;D

That's been my contension with most christians,  they pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to live by.  VERY FEW accept it literally and wholey and live by it.

Dos Equis

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #118 on: November 06, 2006, 01:14:19 PM »
That's the point.  To accept that homosexuality is not a choice would be to accept it was something they were born with therfore created by GOD and would contradict the bible even though there is ample evidence and logic that it is something other than a choice.

That's right, we are bAD BAD sinful people who are lost with out the leadership of the church who speaks for GOD........  claissic brain ****

Ozmo if we were truly talking about science, then I think you'd have a valid point.  We don't have that.  Science has not shown that homosexuality or bisexuality are genetic.

How would you explain someone like Anne Heche?  Or Angelina Jolie?     

OzmO

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #119 on: November 06, 2006, 01:18:25 PM »
Ozmo if we were truly talking about science, then I think you'd have a valid point.  We don't have that.  Science has not shown that homosexuality or bisexuality are genetic.

How would you explain someone like Anne Heche?  Or Angelina Jolie?     

Is liking chocolate ice cream and not liking coconut ice cream been proven as genetic?

Can you choose not liking chocolate ice cream?

re: bisexuality
Can you choose not liking both?

Dos Equis

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #120 on: November 06, 2006, 01:22:52 PM »
Is liking chocolate ice cream and not liking coconut ice cream been proven as genetic?

Can you choose not liking chocolate ice cream?

re: bisexuality
Can you choose not liking both?

Not a fair comparison at all.  I'm a chocoholic.  Hey a couple years ago I was teaching a group of impressionable 10-13 year-olds in a church class and I told them that chocolate is a food group.  One of the kids went and told his aunt (who he lived with).  She actually confronted me over this.  She was not happy.   ;D

But I digress . . . .

You cannot choose your temptations, but you can choose whether to act on them. 

OzmO

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2006, 01:52:37 PM »
Not a fair comparison at all.  I'm a chocoholic.  Hey a couple years ago I was teaching a group of impressionable 10-13 year-olds in a church class and I told them that chocolate is a food group.  One of the kids went and told his aunt (who he lived with).  She actually confronted me over this.  She was not happy.   ;D

But I digress . . . .

You cannot choose your temptations, but you can choose whether to act on them. 

Now we are getting some where.   :)


BayGBM

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2006, 04:34:26 AM »
'Restoration' after the fall
Fellow evangelicals seek to help the Rev. Ted Haggard address the behaviors that snared him in a scandal.
By Stephanie Simon
Times Staff Writer

December 8, 2006

COLORADO SPRINGS, COLO. — The Rev. Ted Haggard this week formally begins his long journey toward recovery from a drugs-and-gay-sex scandal that forced him to step down as one of the most influential evangelical leaders in the nation.

Haggard, 50, has turned himself over to a team of counselors who are "assessing his spiritual, emotional and mental condition," said the Rev. H.B. London, who is helping to guide Haggard through the process. London and two other pastors will then set out a rigorous "restoration plan" requiring Haggard to spend hours each week in counseling, Bible study, prayer and soul-baring talks — by phone or in person — with his mentors.

The team's first task will be to push Haggard to acknowledge any addictions and come to an honest understanding of his sexuality. "Ted is not in touch with reality," said the Rev. Mark Cowart, a friend. The mentors can confront Haggard or rebuke him forcefully; they may also ask him to submit to a polygraph test.

"Ted says he's not a homosexual,"
said the Rev. Mike Ware, a good friend. "The restoration team wants experts to evaluate that."

Haggard's high-profile ministry collapsed last month after a male prostitute went on talk radio to allege that the pastor regularly paid him for sex over the last three years. Mike Jones — who advertised in gay publications as a masseur — also said he had seen Haggard take methamphetamine.

Haggard denied the accusations. But when Jones produced two voice-mail messages from Haggard, the pastor said he had hired the prostitute for a massage and had purchased meth, only to throw it away. In a letter to his congregation, Haggard admitted that he had succumbed to "desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach."

"I am a deceiver and a liar," Haggard wrote. "There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life."

Haggard resigned as president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals, a powerful post that brought him in frequent contact with the White House. He was also dismissed as senior pastor of New Life, the church he founded in his basement and grew to a congregation of 14,000.

Since his public confession, Haggard has secluded himself with his wife, Gayle, and their five children. Those close to him say he's humbled, ashamed and grieving — yet prayerful that the scandal might strengthen his family and his faith. "It seems to be a time of hope," said Carolyn Haggard, his niece.

New Life's trustees are working on a severance package to sustain Haggard (who earned about $140,000 a year) and his wife (who earned about $50,000 a year for her work with women's ministries). Associate Pastor Rob Brendle said the Haggards had also received a "generous outpouring" of gifts from congregation members, including donations.

Those close to the restoration will not say whether Haggard will undergo therapy to try to eliminate same-sex attractions. But the conservative Christian leader James C. Dobson, a close friend, has said the healing process — which could last years — will probably aim to eliminate any homosexuality.

White evangelicals as a group tend to view homosexuality as a lifestyle choice, not an inborn trait, with 56% holding that sexual orientation can be changed, according to a poll taken this summer by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. (By comparison, the same poll showed 31% of Catholics and 22% of white mainline Protestants believe change is possible.)

In many evangelical congregations, men and women with same-sex attractions are expected to use prayer and Bible study to help them resist the temptation to sin. Haggard comes from a charismatic tradition that puts particular emphasis on the devil's corrupting influence. He has described supernatural visions of demons waiting to infect newborns with sinful desires.

This theology of constant spiritual warfare has led some of his followers to blame Haggard's fall not on any personal weakness but on Satan's cunning. As congregation member Jan Long, 60, put it: "The enemy wants to destroy us."

Such constructions worry the Rev. Tony Campolo, a liberal evangelical leader who helped guide President Clinton's spiritual restoration after the Monica S. Lewinsky affair. "The idea that this is a matter of some evil spirit taking hold of him is setting Ted Haggard up for disaster," Campolo said. "He may have a tendency to pretend that he's been delivered from his homosexual feelings … and all is well."

Campolo said he hoped the restoration team would impress upon Haggard that "there is no easy fix. These are problems he will struggle with for a lifetime."

Haggard has been more liberal than many evangelicals on gay-rights issues; for example, he backs domestic partner benefits. But he has preached unequivocally that homosexuality is immoral and that those who persist in same-sex relations will not be welcome in God's kingdom.

His restoration team largely shares this theology. It includes two veteran pastors of evangelical mega-churches: the Rev. Jack W. Hayford, 72, of Van Nuys and the Rev. Tommy Barnett, 69, of Phoenix. Both pastors — like Haggard — draw on the charismatic tradition, including speaking in tongues.

The third member of the team, London, 69, serves as vice president of Dobson's conservative ministry Focus on the Family, which promotes therapy to help gays and lesbians change their sexual orientation.

As director of pastoral outreach for the Colorado Springs-based ministry, London has counseled hundreds of clergy with admitted moral failings; up to half don't make it through the rehabilitation. "They grow weary of the regimen and drop out," he said.

Those who stick with the process often feel almost unbearably isolated. "Many have run for years on the adrenaline that comes from power and recognition — and suddenly it's gone," London said. "The phone's not ringing. People don't need you."

The restoration team will not aim to return Haggard to ministry. Addressing the New Life congregation last month, Haggard's mentor the Rev. Larry Stockstill laid out a much more modest goal: for Pastor Ted to recover enough to serve God "with joy, with dignity, with hope in his heart."

The congregation responded with a standing ovation.

BayGBM

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2006, 04:45:15 AM »
>This theology of constant spiritual warfare has led some of his followers to blame Haggard's fall not on any personal weakness but on Satan's cunning.

This is so self serving it is delicious!  When you or someone you like does “wrong” the devil made them do it.  But when anyone else does "wrong" they are just plain sinners who are going to hell.

"The devil made me do it."   Hard to believe people still think this way.

Dos Equis

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Re: Evangelical Leader Accused of Gay Affair
« Reply #124 on: December 08, 2006, 08:01:30 AM »

Such constructions worry the Rev. Tony Campolo, a liberal evangelical leader who helped guide President Clinton's spiritual restoration after the Monica S. Lewinsky affair. "The idea that this is a matter of some evil spirit taking hold of him is setting Ted Haggard up for disaster," Campolo said. "He may have a tendency to pretend that he's been delivered from his homosexual feelings … and all is well."

Campolo said he hoped the restoration team would impress upon Haggard that "there is no easy fix. These are problems he will struggle with for a lifetime."


I've met Tony Campolo.  I like him.  I think he's right.