training and steroids

[Big_Tymer]

1= chest tris bis

that must be a long day.  how many sets do you do per muscle?

[tbombz]

that must be a long day.  how many sets do you do per muscle?

not too long, never more than 90minutes, rarely that long though, i dont rest very much at all on arms. for chest i rest when im doing free weights, but i use alot of machine and cables too so even then theres not much rest.

for any given body part, ill do anywhere from 2-6 exercises, between 3-10 sets. i really just go off of how i feel. larger muscles tend to get more exercises and sets while smaler muscles tend to get less exercises and sets. every once in a while i might do 4 exercises 6 sets each for biceps with only 3 exercises 3 sets each for chest. i just listen to my body and go with the flow.

my main goal when im working out is to get as big of a pump and burn in the target muscle as possible.  i do this with reps between 8-12, occasionally i go a bit higgher or lower ( example = bench press i might drop down to 5 reps , while cable crossovers i might jump up t 20 reps. )

i believe inn going to failure as often as you have the energy for. drop sets, pump sets at the end, pre exhaust..some of my favorite techniques.

[Big_Tymer]

good stuff.  i have recently changed my routine to a 2 on 1 off deal.  will see how it goes. sometimes i am still sore and have to take an extra day off.

[4thAD]

I know what works for me dizzle, but thanks! Ive been training a long time.

[tbombz]

I know what works for me dizzle, but thanks! Ive been training a long time.

i extend an olive branch and you swat it down.

good man you are.

[4thAD]

i extend an olive branch and you swat it down.

good man you are.

Pull your balls out from between your legs. I was not swatting it down, come on man. Ive been training since you were in diapers, and I know what works for me. When I train each muscle group twice a week my gains slow, and I become much more injury prone. I lift heavy, in low rep ranges. This kind of heavy training works very well for me. I train 4-5 days a week and every 12 weeks or so I take a week off. I listen to my body, and training six days a week is much to much for me. I'm not 18 years old anymore.

[tbombz]

Pull your balls out from between your legs. I was not swatting it down, come on man. Ive been training since you were in diapers, and I know what works for me. When I train each muscle group twice a week my gains slow, and I become much more injury prone. I lift heavy, in low rep ranges. This kind of heavy training works very well for me. I train 4-5 days a week and every 12 weeks or so I take a week off. I listen to my body, and training six days a week is much to much for me. I'm not 18 years old anymore.

  im not going to argue with you por say your balls are tucked between your legs.

what i posted about training is all accurate. look it up.

do things however you like.

[WillGrant]

All I see in candys advice is epic overtraining.
But if its working for him , great..no way a natural should follow that split though  

[tbombz]

All I see in candys advice is epic overtraining.
But if its working for him , great..no way a natural should follow that split though  

a natural would benefit from it the same as someone on gear.

[WillGrant]

a natural would benefit from it the same as someone on gear.

You must remember overlap..say when you are doing chest with heavy pressing work you are nailing your tris,delts and even lats amoung other groups,when you do overhead pressing work to work delts you are hitting pecs and tris again.In reality you are hitting the muscle  more than twice a week ,4 -5 times is more acurate..

Doing heavy compound work which makes your muscles grow more than any isolation work also nails the CNS very hard , a natural wouldnt be able to cope with that work load..thats my take on it , if its working for you than thats great.

Im also older and have niggling injurys that have built up over the years so this may also swing my opinion .

[Fatpanda]

science backs candy up in this regard - every 48 - 72 hours is optimal for both size and strength gains.

however i find it burns me out too  

gear, workout volume, nutrition, age, sleep, all have an effect on recovery regardless of what science says

[tbombz]

You must remember overlap..say when you are doing chest with heavy pressing work you are nailing your tris,delts and even lats amoung other groups,when you do overhead pressing work to work delts you are hitting pecs and tris again.In reality you are hitting the muscle  more than twice a week ,4 -5 times is more acurate..

Doing heavy compound work which makes your muscles grow more than any isolation work also nails the CNS very hard , a natural wouldnt be able to cope with that work load..thats my take on it , if its working for you than thats great.

Im also older and have niggling injurys that have built up over the years so this may also swing my opinion .

welll i have a few things..

compounds dnont work any better than siolations for the target musclee.

you may think "more weight is used in compounds so you can build more muscle" but remember, yes more weight, but alos more muscles. your target muscle is only so strong, and regardless of compound or isolation, its only going to be able be so strong, regardless.

you may also believe that compounds recruit more fibers, however, for bodybuilding we are training to failure, and when a muscle reaches failure, it is recruiting ever muscle fiber it has.

also, somewhere around 10 reps (8-120 is the best range for hypertophy. reach failure on bench, or flys, or crossovers, and you still reaching failure and still stimulating the same growth.

with isolations you ca concentrate fully on the target muscle, and you can let all other muscles rest.



now, even when your doing a compound and recruiting other muscles, you are still only goign to failure with your target muscle. for example = bench press. when you do the rep, you also have shoulders and tris. however, the only msucle which reaches failure is the target musce= chest. the others ones ar3e far short of failure and are not getting any real growth stimulation.  


another thing, the cns doesnt get fried like arthur harris would have you believ. and you grow before it repairs.  and the ony time the cns does get 'fried' is when your doign too much days of training in succession without a day off, NOT wen your doing alot of vlume in one workout.  at least, in most realistic situations.

[io856]

science backs candy up in this regard - every 48 - 72 hours is optimal for both size and strength gains.

however i find it burns me out too 

gear, workout volume, nutrition, age, sleep, all have an effect on recovery regardless of what science says

Although you and tbombz are 100% and its backed by science. You have got to be careful because many people may have followed a program for almost all their training career. Imagine being told what are you are doing is ineffective when you have spent many years doing it. Lets just say you don't respond to well to that. Retorts such as "overtraining", naturals can't do that, I get weaker if I try that, what about my CNS (LOL) etc etc are very common.

Its best to keep it to yourself or those who are keen around you.

It makes me sick to my stomach seeing people cling onto their little beliefs... When people come along with hard information and fact its almost unbearable seeing the responses.

[4thAD]

  im not going to argue with you por say your balls are tucked between your legs.

what i posted about training is all accurate. look it up.

do things however you like.

I am not looking to argue with you candy! You just seem to think that you have all the answers to everything. Your just so damn positive your right and everyone else has no clue what their talking about. Ive been playing this game for a long time, I know what works for me. I, years ago trained with a top power lifter, and he surely would not agree with the bs your spouting here. Learn some humility it builds character. Just because people here don't always agree with what you say does not make them "haters". Ive told you this before, and I'll say it again not all situations are text book situations. How long have you been training 2-3 years? You have a lot to learn still. I'm still learning everyday here.

[WillGrant]

welll i have a few things..

compounds dnont work any better than siolations for the target musclee.

you may think "more weight is used in compounds so you can build more muscle" but remember, yes more weight, but alos more muscles. your target muscle is only so strong, and regardless of compound or isolation, its only going to be able be so strong, regardless.

you may also believe that compounds recruit more fibers, however, for bodybuilding we are training to failure, and when a muscle reaches failure, it is recruiting ever muscle fiber it has.

also, somewhere around 10 reps (8-120 is the best range for hypertophy. reach failure on bench, or flys, or crossovers, and you still reaching failure and still stimulating the same growth.

with isolations you ca concentrate fully on the target muscle, and you can let all other muscles rest.



now, even when your doing a compound and recruiting other muscles, you are still only goign to failure with your target muscle. for example = bench press. when you do the rep, you also have shoulders and tris. however, the only msucle which reaches failure is the target musce= chest. the others ones ar3e far short of failure and are not getting any real growth stimulation.  


another thing, the cns doesnt get fried like arthur harris would have you believ. and you grow before it repairs.  and the ony time the cns does get 'fried' is when your doign too much days of training in succession without a day off, NOT wen your doing alot of vlume in one workout.  at least, in most realistic situations.

Compounds are best because yes you can use more weight and they bring other muscles into play to help but this is not the only reason,generaly compound work hits the belly of the muscle which is the "mass" of the muscle,isolating tends to work the insertion of the muscle..

You get more bang for your buck on compound work..

When you are doing 5-20 reps with 400-500 pounds on deadlifts and squats , like really working hard that you see god and the room is spinning , then come and tell me the CNS doesnt take a battering , also some muscles recover faster,spinal erectors are slow recoverers these also get pasted hard on squats and deads.

I wish I would of taken my time and learnt more about recovery when I was younger instead of chucking myself into the deep end..A result is I tore my bicep , exstensior,I have a fucked hip ,Ive blown triceps and shoulder , all because I let enthusiasim dictate to how I trained  

[WillGrant]

Although you and tbombz are 100% and its backed by science. You have got to be careful because many people may have followed a program for almost all their training career. Imagine being told what are you are doing is ineffective when you have spent many years doing it. Lets just say you don't respond to well to that. Retorts such as "overtraining", naturals can't do that, I get weaker if I try that, what about my CNS (LOL) etc etc are very common.

Its best to keep it to yourself or those who are keen around you.

It makes me sick to my stomach seeing people cling onto their little beliefs... When people come along with hard information and fact its almost unbearable seeing the responses.

The problem With science and Studys as FatPanda points out is it does not always work in the real world..

That is a 100% fact. 

[Fatpanda]

welll i have a few things..

compounds dnont work any better than siolations for the target musclee.

you may think "more weight is used in compounds so you can build more muscle" but remember, yes more weight, but alos more muscles. your target muscle is only so strong, and regardless of compound or isolation, its only going to be able be so strong, regardless.

you may also believe that compounds recruit more fibers, however, for bodybuilding we are training to failure, and when a muscle reaches failure, it is recruiting ever muscle fiber it has.

also, somewhere around 10 reps (8-120 is the best range for hypertophy. reach failure on bench, or flys, or crossovers, and you still reaching failure and still stimulating the same growth.

with isolations you ca concentrate fully on the target muscle, and you can let all other muscles rest.



now, even when your doing a compound and recruiting other muscles, you are still only goign to failure with your target muscle. for example = bench press. when you do the rep, you also have shoulders and tris. however, the only msucle which reaches failure is the target musce= chest. the others ones ar3e far short of failure and are not getting any real growth stimulation.  


another thing, the cns doesnt get fried like arthur harris would have you believ. and you grow before it repairs.  and the ony time the cns does get 'fried' is when your doign too much days of training in succession without a day off, NOT wen your doing alot of vlume in one workout.  at least, in most realistic situations.

first - 10 reps is not the best for hypertrophy, if you can prove your claims, post a study !!!!

second - your routine is not optimal for meeting the criteria of 48-72 hours.

third - on your first rep from 6 reps down you are activating every muscle fibre, no need to go to failure.

forth - who is arthur harris  

fifth - you can get overtrained from 1 workout

[tbombz]

good post io, thanks, i didnt even think about it, makes sense

[4thAD]

Its not belief. I know what works for me and what doesn't when it comes to training! Been at this for a very long time. I may not be the most scientific text book guru, but I know how to train my body. I still have questions, I am still learning, but when it comes to volume I know what works for me.

[bigdarksnake]

4th, Tbombz, Fatpanda all of you guys have your different training beliefs but what do you guys think on DOMS? Do you guys get sore after every workout?

I have been training for a few years now, and I don't get sore like I used to.......In these situations I just change rep range, set #, and rest time to achieve soreness. Should I chase the soreness?

[Fatpanda]

4th, Tbombz, Fatpanda all of you guys have your different training beliefs but what do you guys think on DOMS? Do you guys get sore after every workout?

I have been training for a few years now, and I don't get sore like I used to.......In these situations I just change rep range, set #, and rest time to achieve soreness. Should I chase the soreness?

its a tough one as there hasn't been any definative scientific conclusions yet, for example this study explains the most logical theorys:

Mechanisms of exercise-induced delayed onset muscular soreness: a brief review.
Armstrong RB.

Delayed-onset muscular soreness (DOMS), the sensation of pain and stiffness in the muscles that occurs from 1 to 5 d following unaccustomed exercise, can adversely affect muscular performance, both from voluntary reduction of effort and from inherent loss of capacity of the muscles to produce force. This reduction in performance is temporary; permanent impairment does not occur. A number of clinical correlates are associated with DOMS, including elevations in plasma enzymes, myoglobinemia, and abnormal muscle histology and ultrastructure; exertional rhabdomyolysis appears to be the extreme form of DOMS. Presently, the best treatment for DOMS appears to be muscular activity, although the sensation again returns following the exercise. Training for the specific contractile activity that causes DOMS reduces the soreness response. The etiology and cellular mechanisms of DOMS are not known, but a number of hypotheses exist to explain the phenomenon. The following model may be proposed: 1) high tensions (particularly those associated with eccentric exercise) in the contractile/elastic system of the muscle result in structural damage; 2) cell membrane damage leads to disruption of Ca++ homeostasis in the injured fibers, resulting in necrosis that peaks about 2 d post-exercise; and 3) products of macrophage activity and intracellular contents accumulate in the interstitium, which in turn stimulate free nerve endings of group-IV sensory neurons in the muscles leading to the sensation of DOMS.

PMID: 6392811 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

however i feel this study rules out the necrosis (cell death) and macrophage activity ( inflamation and clearing of waste) theorys :

Eccentric contractions leading to DOMS do not cause loss of desmin nor fibre necrosis in human muscle.Yu JG, Malm C, Thornell LE.
Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umeå University, 901 87 Umeå, Sweden.

High force eccentric muscle contractions can result in delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), prolonged loss of muscle strength, decreased range of motion, muscle swelling and an increase of muscle proteins in the blood. At the ultrastructural level Z-line streaming and myofibrillar disruptions have been taken as evidence for muscle damage. In animal models of eccentric exercise-induced injury, disruption of the cytoskeleton and the sarcolemma of muscle fibres occurs within the first hour after the exercise, since a rapid loss of staining of desmin, a cytoskeletal protein, and the presence of fibronectin, a plasma and extracellular protein, are observed within the muscle fibres. In the present study, biopsies from subjects who had performed different eccentric exercises and had developed DOMS were examined. Our aim was to determine whether eccentric exercise leading to DOMS causes sarcolemmal disruption and loss of desmin in humans. Our study shows that even though the subjects had DOMS, muscle fibres had neither lost staining for desmin nor contained plasma fibronectin. This study therefore does not support previous conclusions that there is muscle fibre degeneration and necrosis in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise leading to DOMS. Our data are in agreement with the recent findings that there is no inflammatory response in skeletal muscle following eccentric exercise in humans. In combination, these findings should stimulate the search for other mechanisms explaining the functional and structural alterations in human skeletal muscle after eccentric exercise.


this only leaves us with the theory about high tension resulting in structural damage, or some other unhear/undiscovered process.

Personally i think the high tension theory makes the most sense, and that the pain is caused by excessive structural fibre damage as it is simply too much weight/damage for the body to handle ( a bit like sunburn ). This also holds true as everyone knows a light workout helps the pain go away - due to the blood ( carrying nutrients) being pumped into the damaged area ths helping healing/rebuilding.

the next workout there is usually no pain, or at least no where near after a long layoff.

So IMO i think you should not strive for DOMS. Yes you are growing, and yes you can recover, but i just feel its not optimal nor needed. Its certainly not comfortable when its excessive pain and you can barely walk, tand, sit etc

edit: The body produces prostaglandins in response to injury. one of the effects of prostaglandins is to sensitise nerve endings, causing pain (presumably to prevent us from causing further harm to the area) but it also produces inflammation, but if that 2ns study is correct, it can't be that either. 

[pumpster]

When I train each muscle group twice a week my gains slow, and I become much more injury prone. I lift heavy, in low rep ranges. This kind of heavy training works very well for me.

Most of the top BBs of the last 4-5 decades found that twice a week was more effective. Obviously someone using lower reps puts more stress on the joints and tissues, which would slow recovery, especially with age. In other words, it ain't smart to go heavier with lower reps especially as you get older, and I don't believe for a minute that someone couldn't use higher reps in the 8-12 range and not get the same gains or better. I think you've convinced yourself that you have to "go heavy with low reps"-it's usually partially ego doing this BTW.

[shrek]

i enjoy the aronold method,,,, he did alot of reps over many exercises and didnt beleive in overtraining.. now one should know when a certain body part needs more rest or not. if i think my bi's are still beat up, when time comes for back ill go light and higher reps to keep my bi's from jumping in to the exercise. thus bein the same with chest and shoulders and tri's.. some weeks ill workout 6 days and some only 3 it all depends on my recovery

[Fatpanda]

Most of the top BBs of the last 4-5 decades found that twice a week was more effective. Obviously someone using lower reps puts more stress on the joints and tissues, which would slow recovery, especially with age. In other words, it ain't smart to go heavier with lower reps especially as you get older, and I don't believe for a minute that someone couldn't use higher reps in the 8-12 range and not get the same gains or better. I think you've convinced yourself that you have to "go heavy with low reps"-it's usually partially ego doing this BTW.

tell that to louie simmons, or dave tate or countless others.

[4thAD]

Most of the top BBs of the last 4-5 decades found that twice a week was more effective. Obviously someone using lower reps puts more stress on the joints and tissues, which would slow recovery, especially with age. In other words, it ain't smart to go heavier with lower reps especially as you get older, and I don't believe for a minute that someone couldn't use higher reps in the 8-12 range and not get the same gains or better. I think you've convinced yourself that you have to "go heavy with low reps"-it's usually partially ego doing this BTW.

When did I say a higher rep range wont work? I will sometimes use higher reps, but mostly I lift heavy. Also I'm not looking to be a "Top pro", or even a pro body builder for that matter. I don't want to carry that kind of weight around. I am in this game to stay in shape and have fun. Ive lifted since my early teens, and what I'm saying is I know what works for me. I got into power lifting a bit when I was younger, and now I am more into bb. Oh and by the way I am no where near old, nor do I have any joint or tendon issues! I appreciate your input though.