Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on September 09, 2011, 06:11:19 AM
-
The Contradictions of the MSNBC Left
By Jonah Goldberg
During the recent GOP presidential debate, MSNBC ran self-promotional commercials for itself. That’s okay; all networks do it. The Hebrew philosopher Hillel’s famous line “If I am not for myself, who will be for me?” applies for cable news networks, too. And given MSNBC’s ratings, that wisdom is particularly poignant.
The long-running “Lean Forward” marketing campaign features different MSNBC hosts waxing poetic on the glories of government and liberalism. The ad they kept running during the debate features Rachel Maddow standing on the edge of the Hoover Dam. The spots are a widespread source of ridicule in conservative circles, mostly because they show Maddow on the precipice of the dam in an ad hectoring us all to “lean forward.” You first, Ms. Maddow.
But the real joke of the commercial is the argument behind it. Maddow objects when “people tell us no, no, no we’re not going to build it. No, no, no, America doesn’t have any greatness in its future. America has small things in its future. Other countries have great things in their future. China can afford it. We can’t.” She replies to this chorus of strawmen, “You’re wrong, and it doesn’t feel right to us and it doesn’t sound right to us because that’s not what America is.” It’s one of several ads equating American greatness with big infrastructure spending on the scale of the Hoover Dam.
The reason the ad is so funny is that nobody thinks liberals such as Maddow would support anything like the Hoover Dam today. The Hoover Dam is a marvel. But by today’s green standards, it is a crime against nature. If you tried to build it, the Natural Resources Defense Council and Greenpeace would be in court tomorrow blocking it, with Ms. Maddow cheering them on.
Indeed, look at all the activists attacking the proposed construction of an oil pipeline from Canada to the Texas coast. It would create thousands of construction jobs and yet liberals oppose it for the usual petrophobic reasons. Ironically, liberals love building highways and bridges, but loathe making it affordable to drive on them.
This is just a small example of the Catch-22 liberalism has found itself in. The Left yearns to “go big” but it wants to do so through the extremely narrow routes it has created for itself. They say government must rush into this economic crisis like firemen into a burning building. But they also don’t want to lighten the useless baggage the firemen must carry or remove the Byzantine obstacle course they’ve decreed the figurative firefighters must run through before getting to work.
Everyone in Washington should reread Jonathan Rauch’s 1994 book Demosclerosis, a term Rauch coined to describe “government’s progressive loss of the ability to adapt.” Thanks to the rise of interest-group liberalism, constituencies grow up around government programs and policies that do not benefit the general public. Obviously, these constituencies care more about their programs than the average voters do, so they make up for their low numbers with high intensity. The mohair subsidy is the number one priority of only one group of Americans: recipients of mohair subsidies. More significantly, organized labor makes up a tiny fraction of the workforce, but dictates vast swaths of labor policy in this country.
As the number of interest groups claiming sovereignty over their own little slices of policy multiplies, government’s maneuvering room shrinks.
Rauch compared the problem to the “hardening of the arteries, which builds up stealthily over many years.” Before you know it, first responders to Hurricane Katrina have to undergo sensitivity training before they can save people from drowning and “shovel-ready” green jobs require months of “prevailing wage” compliance paper-pushing and are too expensive anyway. Boston’s Big Dig took two decades to build; the far more ambitious Hoover Dam, which Maddow and company love, took four years.
Look, I’m no Keynesian, but there should have been at least an economic sugar rush from the stimulus. There wasn’t, in large part because government has lost its flexibility. We poured money down the same mostly clogged bureaucratic drain. When the last bit burbled away, we were told we must “invest” even more in infrastructure and education. We’ve been doing that for decades. In terms of spending, adjusted for inflation, the size of government has increased 50 percent over the last decade alone.
Who thinks we got anything like a positive return on that “investment”? Why didn’t we? Because money isn’t the problem, government is.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/09/09/the_contradictions_of_the_msnbc_left_111274.html
-
What's the issue? Seems like a propaganda piece rather than an argument.
I think some liberals would support building of the hoover dam, and some would not (I would not). That has nothing to do with liberalism itself.
I think the article misunderstands some points. Liberals (taking this to be the majority of the people who call themselves liberal) do not advocate the building (as in the continuous building) of roads and bridges. Originally yes, but not now. Some, myself included, think there are enough roads already built and we should be working on maintaining what is already built.
-
What's the issue? Seems like a propaganda piece rather than an argument.
I think some liberals would support building of the hoover dam, and some would not (I would not). That has nothing to do with liberalism itself.
I think the article misunderstands some points. Liberals (taking this to be the majority of the people who call themselves liberal) do not advocate the building (as in the continuous building) of roads and bridges. Originally yes, but not now. Some, myself included, think there are enough roads already built and we should be working on maintaining what is already built.
Have you seen her ads?
-
What's the issue? Seems like a propaganda piece rather than an argument.
I think some liberals would support building of the hoover dam, and some would not (I would not). That has nothing to do with liberalism itself.
I think the article misunderstands some points. Liberals (taking this to be the majority of the people who call themselves liberal) do not advocate the building (as in the continuous building) of roads and bridges. Originally yes, but not now. Some, myself included, think there are enough roads already built and we should be working on maintaining what is already built.
No moron, once again you are arguing irrelevant semantics. Liberals today are characterized and defined through networks like MSNBC and pundits Rachel Maddow. The point of this piece is that liberals today act like they want big infrastructure projects to fix the American economy, but in reality the liberal special interest groups+ the Obama administration would never allow them to take place.
-
No moron, once again you are arguing irrelevant semantics. Liberals today are characterized and defined through networks like MSNBC and pundits Rachel Maddow. The point of this piece is that liberals today act like they want big infrastructure projects to fix the American economy, but in reality the liberal special interest groups+ the Obama administration would never allow them to take place.
Empire State Building was built in little over a year, and is still rock solid. Does anyone think that could be done today?
-
some right wing douche writes an article projecting his own opinion that Dems/Liberals etc. would be against infrastructure projects based on nothing more than their own misguided beliefs about "libs" and we're all supposed to believe it
fuckiing HILARIOUS
-
Empire State Building was built in little over a year, and is still rock solid. Does anyone think that could be done today?
it's been 10 years. WTC hasn't been rebuilt yet.
-
it's been 10 years. WTC hasn't been rebuilt yet.
Obamas fault
-
it's been 10 years. WTC hasn't been rebuilt yet.
No shit! I live here. Its a joke.
-
No shit! I live here. Its a joke.
silverstein saw all 7 of his WTC properties destroyed that day, even as buildings closer sustained only minor damage.
He received how many billions in insurance money for his VERY minimal investment?
I got $5 that says in 5 years, there still is no building there. Sorry, won't happen. Labor is dirt cheap and they're not building now. Companies holding 2 trillion in stim money - they ain't spending homie.
-
silverstein saw all 7 of his WTC properties destroyed that day, even as buildings closer sustained only minor damage.
He received how many billions in insurance money for his VERY minimal investment?
I got $5 that says in 5 years, there still is no building there. Sorry, won't happen. Labor is dirt cheap and they're not building now. Companies holding 2 trillion in stim money - they ain't spending homie.
Again - please STFU on things you know NOTHING about. Ever hear of the MTA?
-
Again - please STFU on things you know NOTHING about. Ever hear of the MTA?
please take your own "advises"
no one is worse than you at polluting this board with complete and utter bullshit
you're the undisputed champ
-
Again - please STFU on things you know NOTHING about. Ever hear of the MTA?
i watched a great deal of glen beck this year - he told me companies are holding that 2 trillion, putting it in foreign investments. he feared it'd be Weimar II around herre' when that money entered our economy. But the $ is there - that is the point. They didn't build under bush and they didn't build under obama. They won't build under a president Mitt either.
Ever hear of Glen Beck?
-
i watched a great deal of glen beck this year - he told me companies are holding that 2 trillion, putting it in foreign investments. he feared it'd be Weimar II around herre' when that money entered our economy. But the $ is there - that is the point. They didn't build under bush and they didn't build under obama. They won't build under a president Mitt either.
Ever hear of Glen Beck?
This has been held up due to the Port Authority , numerous lawsuits by families, insurance litigation, MTA nonsense, endless planning changes and arxchitectural disputes, etc.
Its a perfect example of what is wrong with this country now.
-
This has been held up due to the Port Authority , numerous lawsuits by families, insurance litigation, MTA nonsense, endless planning changes and arxchitectural disputes, etc.
Its a perfect example of what is wrong with this country now.
Are all buildings in NYC sunect to a 10 year waiting period?
And sorry, but "arxchitectural disputes" is pure horse shit. They are stalling building it. Remember "We will have this building built in a year..."
Sorry, that shit ain't getting built. Took the money and run... Lord knows what garbage is sitll in the air down there, that the EPA is still lying about.
But hey, breathe it in and swallow the lies homie.
-
Are all buildings in NYC sunect to a 10 year waiting period?
And sorry, but "arxchitectural disputes" is pure horse shit. They are stalling building it. Remember "We will have this building built in a year..."
Sorry, that shit ain't getting built. Took the money and run... Lord knows what garbage is sitll in the air down there, that the EPA is still lying about.
But hey, breathe it in and swallow the lies homie.
LMFAO!
I have lived here for my entire life and watched the day to day bs on this from the beginning.
you have never stepped foot in NYC and are completely clueless on what goes on with this nonsense with the lawsuits.
-
i never will go to NYC.
The EPA told us, 3 days after the attack, that everything was safe.
That was a lie - that was the white house version of events - they changed the EPA report, and the EPA doctors were very upset. Whitman was happy to sell us that lie, and send all yall back to work, sadly.
SO yeah, I dont trust them. Maybe you do, that's your call, I respect that.
-
some right wing douche writes an article projecting his own opinion that Dems/Liberals etc. would be against infrastructure projects based on nothing more than their own misguided beliefs about "libs" and we're all supposed to believe it
fuckiing HILARIOUS
Nice deflection shitbag. Why don't you explain to us what these misconceptions are?
Is the environmentalist lobby a GOP stronghold? Is the GOP in the pocket of all the labor unions? Was it a Republican President that went before the nation yesterday preaching big scale infrastructure as the way to get out of the economic downturn? Did a Republican administration add 9 billion dollars in new federal regulations through the EPA in the last few months alone?
One thing about liberals that never ceases to amaze me-- when they have no defense, no argument and nothing to add, they attack the messenger for daring to bring facts and evidence into the picture and run the fuck away from the discussion. Typical gutless response from a bloc of gutless know-nothings.
-
Nice deflection shitbag. Why don't you explain to us what these misconceptions are?
Is the environmentalist lobby a GOP stronghold? Is the GOP in the pocket of all the labor unions? Was it a Republican President that went before the nation yesterday preaching big scale infrastructure as the way to get out of the economic downturn? Did a Republican administration add 9 billion dollars in new federal regulations through the EPA in the last few months alone?
One thing about liberals that never ceases to amaze me-- when they have no defense, no argument and nothing to add, they attack the messenger for daring to bring facts and evidence into the picture and run the fuck away from the discussion. Typical gutless response from a bloc of gutless know-nothings.
what deflection
this statemet is nothing more that this person absurd belief and you're free to agree with it and any other unsubstantiated and crazy shit that you like
But by today’s green standards, it is a crime against nature. If you tried to build it, the Natural Resources Defense Council and Greenpeace would be in court tomorrow blocking it, with Ms. Maddow cheering them on.
-
what deflection
this statemet is nothing more that this person absurd belief and you're free to agree with it and any other unsubstantiated and crazy shit that you like
But by today’s green standards, it is a crime against nature. If you tried to build it, the Natural Resources Defense Council and Greenpeace would be in court tomorrow blocking it, with Ms. Maddow cheering them on.
Why is it absurd?
Any time a massive new project is announced, whether its a nuke plant, drilling, massive development, etc, the far lefct sues and goes crazy and does everything to gum up the works.
-
Why is it absurd?
Any time a massive new project is announced, whether its a nuke plant, drilling, massive development, etc, the far lefct sues and goes crazy and does everything to gum up the works.
a nuke plant, "drilling" are not the same as building a bridge
but don't let that stop you from just rolling it all into one thing and pretending that it's all "good" or that libs would see it as all "bad"
just keep going with the blanket statements and projections onto others of your own preconceived beliefs
-
Left vs. Right, that's what they want so the American people are distracted while they get fucked. :-\
-
a nuke plant, "drilling" are not the same as building a bridge
but don't let that stop you from just rolling it all into one thing and pretending that it's all "good" or that libs would see it as all "bad"
just keep going with the blanket statements and projections onto others of your own preconceived beliefs
Its not blanket statements as they do the same thing with infrastructure, energy, private development, etc.
Where i live, the far left commies and dirtbags you are so keen to are trying to shut down Indian Point, the nuke plant that supplies 25% of the energy to NYC.
Do these commie traitors and dirtbags propose how to make up the 25%? NO! All they do is keep filing lawsuits, protests, etc to close the plant, regardless of the negative impact on the area.
The far leftists like yourself will not be happy until we are all in tents
-
Left vs. Right, that's what they want so the American people are distracted while they get fucked. :-\
That's pure nonsense. right vs left represents vastly different ideologies and beliefs. People like Straw and the far leftists are the dirtbags stopping drilling, nuke plants, coal plants, hydro plants, dams, etc.
they want zero progress in this nation and will only be happy until we are riding bikes to work and living in tents.
-
Its not blanket statements as they do the same thing with infrastructure, energy, private development, etc.
Where i live, the far left commies and dirtbags you are so keen to are trying to shut down Indian Point, the nuke plant that supplies 25% of the energy to NYC.
Do these commie traitors and dirtbags propose how to make up the 25%? NO! All they do is keep filing lawsuits, protests, etc to close the plant, regardless of the negative impact on the area.
The far leftists like yourself will not be happy until we are all in tents
yeah and if some local group is against a specific nuclear power plant then it just follows that they MUST also be against any infrastructure project like building a bridge or even repairing/maintaining existing infrastructure
It's all or nothing
right?
-
yeah and if some local group is against a specific nuclear power plant then it just follows that they MUST also be against any infrastructure project like building a bridge or even repairing/maintaining existing infrastructure
It's all or nothing
right?
Yes - since they have a well established pattern of behavior of being against everything.
no nuke plants
no coal plants
no drilling
no refiniries
no fracking
no massive hydro plants
advocate "sustainable community" crap
and on and on and on and on.
-
Yes - since they have a well established pattern of behavior of being against everything.
no nuke plants
no coal plants
no drilling
no refiniries
no fracking
no massive hydro plants
advocate "sustainable community" crap
and on and on and on and on.
no point in trying to have a discussion with someone who holds such a simplistic and child like view of the world
-
Why is it absurd?
Any time a massive new project is announced, whether its a nuke plant, drilling, massive development, etc, the far lefct sues and goes crazy and does everything to gum up the works.
there is nothing wrong with that...thats why the U.S. has one of the best environments in the world.....in Russia and china they simply build whatever the fuck and then later massive contamination and environmental harm has been done
suing is simply due process and keeps everyone honest..yes its a pain in the neck but at least it prevents the abuse that is a regular occurrence in other countries
look at chernobyl....it should never have been built..shoddy workmanship, regulations were violated and not in place in the first place and built in a densely populated area.....having recourse through the courts would have stopped that from occurring
places like Russia and china have some of the most contaminated land and water in the world...look at the smog in china...do you know how many people will get Asthsma and cancer from that????
-
there is nothing wrong with that...thats why the U.S. has one of the best environments in the world.....in Russia and china they simply build whatever the fuck and then later massive contamination and environmental harm has been done
suing is simply due process and keeps everyone honest..yes its a pain in the neck but at least it prevents the abuse that is a regular occurrence in other countries
look at chernobyl....it should never have been built..shoddy workmanship, regulations were violated and not in place in the first place and built in a densely populated area.....having recourse through the courts would have stopped that from occurring
places like Russia and china have some of the most contaminated land and water in the world...look at the smog in china...do you know how many people will get Asthsma and cancer from that????
so then dont complain when businesses move overseas and jobs go away.
-
so then dont complain when businesses move overseas and jobs go away.
so be it....I want them to be able to do business but not at the expense of massive pollution which could make us and our children sick and destroy the environment
-
so be it....I want them to be able to do business but not at the expense of massive pollution which could make us and our children sick and destroy the environment
Good at least you admit it.
-
Good at least you admit it.
I do..proud of it..business can't be allowed to do anything they want
-
I do..proud of it..business can't be allowed to do anything they want
I only wish you were the first one laid off and sent to the welfare line.
-
I only wish you were the first one laid off and sent to the welfare line.
nice - so if someone doesnt' agree with your radical, pro-corporate agenda then you just wish ill on them
but you'd be the first to bitch and moan if someone said that to you
-
Maddow on the Hoover dam, and not one "finger in the dyke joke" yet......
-
Maddow on the Hoover dam, and not one "finger in the dyke joke" yet......
LOL
-
nice - so if someone doesnt' agree with your radical, pro-corporate agenda then you just wish ill on them
but you'd be the first to bitch and moan if someone said that to you
Absolutely! If you advocate a commie/socialist/progressive bullshit agenda that stops development, growth, drilling, nukes, coal, etc., damn right you should be the first to feel the effects of those bullshit ideas and opinions.
same way i believe if a company is going under now, and has to lay off a few people due to higher health care costs, etc, the owner should walk down the parking lot and pick out the obama bumpersticker cars and lay those tools off first.
-
Absolutely! If you advocate a commie/socialist/progressive bullshit agenda that stops development, growth, drilling, nukes, coal, etc., damn right you should be the first to feel the effects of those bullshit ideas and opinions.
same way i believe if a company is going under now, and has to lay off a few people due to higher health care costs, etc, the owner should walk down the parking lot and pick out the obama bumpersticker cars and lay those tools off first.
you should have no problem then if an owner of a company decides that the Republican agenda is harming his business and chooses to selectively lay off anyone who voted for a Republican
it's all the same thing your child like and petty existence
don't even bother posting and telling me you have a problem with this
-
That's pure nonsense. right vs left represents vastly different ideologies and beliefs. People like Straw and the far leftists are the dirtbags stopping drilling, nuke plants, coal plants, hydro plants, dams, etc.
they want zero progress in this nation and will only be happy until we are riding bikes to work and living in tents.
The people might be left and right but the government is of no party, it just serves the special interests.
-
you should have no problem then if an owner of a company decides that the Republican agenda is harming his business and chooses to selectively lay off anyone who voted for a Republican
it's all the same thing your child like and petty existence
don't even bother posting and telling me you have a problem with this
That's why I work for myself.
-
I do..proud of it..business can't be allowed to do anything they want
No one on here was advocating that. It isn't all or nothing with regulation, there is smart and fair regulations vs dumb,stupid, wasteful regulations.
-
Well Straw every time we turn around we have some project being shut down down because some asshole wants to save a brown breasted shit kicker or a midget retarded otter. You libs stop everything. When was the last time a republican stopped a power plant, bridge or road being built. The nuke plant is a great example...Kathleen Sebelius blocked a new plant in Kansas that cost the state a ton of jobs. The libs block clean coal plants all the time.
-
The green cult is intent to send us to the stone ages under candlelight and in tents.
-
Well Straw every time we turn around we have some project being shut down down because some asshole wants to save a brown breasted shit kicker or a midget retarded otter. You libs stop everything. When was the last time a republican stopped a power plant, bridge or road being built. The nuke plant is a great example...Kathleen Sebelius blocked a new plant in Kansas that cost the state a ton of jobs. The libs block clean coal plants all the time.
That may be true, but even in California, business does what it wants.
There was a Marsh land in Los Angeles, It was a wildlife refuge... They drained 1/2 of it to put in a neighborhood... That's in the most liberal area of the country, so the statements, while perhaps, often true, are not ALWAYS that way.
Google Playa Vista.
-
Tu, if that were true, why are businesses leaving CA in droves?
Even if what you are saying is true, the likely rationale behind that particular project is corruption or incompetence. There are a myriad of cases where the state of CA has regulated business right out of the state and come up with asinine legislation that has hurt the states economy.
In an unrelated note, Straw what happened man?
The 17 cents of disposable income you earn per week that doesn't come via government handouts was supposed to be invested in the Post Office. I guess your substantial contribution still wasn't enough to keep the operation afloat.
So what's you excuse for the Post Office going belly up? Republican strongarm tactics? Not enough taxation on the rich? ::)
-
Nice deflection shitbag. Why don't you explain to us what these misconceptions are?
Is the environmentalist lobby a GOP stronghold? Is the GOP in the pocket of all the labor unions? Was it a Republican President that went before the nation yesterday preaching big scale infrastructure as the way to get out of the economic downturn? Did a Republican administration add 9 billion dollars in new federal regulations through the EPA in the last few months alone?
One thing about liberals that never ceases to amaze me-- when they have no defense, no argument and nothing to add, they attack the messenger for daring to bring facts and evidence into the picture and run the fuck away from the discussion. Typical gutless response from a bloc of gutless know-nothings.
Hahahaha. Have you ever seen a stupider person? Tying his sneakers every morning is probably a stretch for Straw Man.
-
Tu, if that were true, why are businesses leaving CA in droves?
Even if what you are saying is true, the likely rationale behind that particular project is corruption or incompetence. There are a myriad of cases where the state of CA has regulated business right out of the state and come up with asinine legislation that has hurt the states economy.
In an unrelated note, Straw what happened man?
The 17 cents of disposable income you earn per week that doesn't come via government handouts was supposed to be invested in the Post Office. I guess your substantial contribution still wasn't enough to keep the operation afloat.
So what's you excuse for the Post Office going belly up? Republican strongarm tactics? Not enough taxation on the rich? ::)
It is definitely true... You can look it up.
Maybe it is corruption, I don't know... but it's a nice area and is only growing.
-
Ok, occasionally things get past...but this is pretty small compared to some massive projects that get halted for no good reason.
-
Absolutely! If you advocate a commie/socialist/progressive bullshit agenda that stops development, growth, drilling, nukes, coal, etc., damn right you should be the first to feel the effects of those bullshit ideas and opinions.
same way i believe if a company is going under now, and has to lay off a few people due to higher health care costs, etc, the owner should walk down the parking lot and pick out the obama bumpersticker cars and lay those tools off first.
well it definitely shows how crazy you are when all I've said is I want corporations and the rich to pay their share of taxes and respect the environment.....is that too much to ask?.....you feel corporations should be allowed to get away with anything for the sake of jobs.....and as I have said look at the environmental damage this has done in countries like north Korea, China, and Russia
-
That's why I work for myself. no one wants to work with me
FIXED FOR TRUTH
-
No one on here was advocating that. It isn't all or nothing with regulation, there is smart and fair regulations vs dumb,stupid, wasteful regulations.
Actually 3333 was advocating that...basically
-
Well Straw every time we turn around we have some project being shut down down because some asshole wants to save a brown breasted shit kicker or a midget retarded otter. You libs stop everything. When was the last time a republican stopped a power plant, bridge or road being built. The nuke plant is a great example...Kathleen Sebelius blocked a new plant in Kansas that cost the state a ton of jobs. The libs block clean coal plants all the time.
again we have one of the best environments in the world...why argue with that?
-
The green cult is intent to send us to the stone ages under candlelight and in tents.
your comments are so off-the-wall its insane.......I guess you're off your meds again :)
-
Hahahaha. Have you ever seen a stupider person? Tying his sneakers every morning is probably a stretch for Straw Man.
Look in the mirror