ACLU Sues City Over Jesus Painting

[Dos Equis]

ACLU at it again.   

Tuesday, July 3, 2007 9:46 p.m. EDT
ACLU Sues City Over Jesus Painting

The American Civil Liberties Union sued the city of Slidell, La., on Tuesday for displaying a painting of Jesus in a courthouse lobby, saying it violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

The ACLU sued after the Slidell City Court refused to voluntarily remove the picture and a message below it that reads: "To Know Peace, Obey These Laws." The ACLU says the portrait — an image of Jesus presenting the New Testament — is a religious icon of the Eastern Orthodox branch of Christianity.

"We did not file this lawsuit because the ACLU is anti-religion ... We did file this lawsuit because we believe this display is clearly in violation of the law," said Vincent Booth, president and acting executive director of the Louisiana ACLU chapter.

The suit was filed on behalf of an unidentified person who complained to the ACLU about the picture. Named as defendants were the city of Slidell, St. Tammany Parish and City Judge James Lamz. St. Tammany Parish is being sued because it partially funds the court, the ACLU said.

On Saturday, Lamz said the picture would stay up unless a federal judge ordered it removed. He said he didn't believe the portrait violates the Constitution, but the issue should be decided in federal court.

Lamz could not comment Tuesday because of the pending litigation, his office said.

Before refusing to take the painting down, Lamz consulted Douglas Laycock, a professor at the University of Michigan Law School who has argued before the Supreme Court.

Laycock said he told Lamz that the legal issues in the case aren't clear-cut and could set legal precedent.

"I don't know how far the two sides will want to push things," Laycock added.
The painting has been on display at the courthouse for nearly a decade and hadn't provoked any complaints prior to the ACLU's recent objections, said Michael Johnson, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian civil rights group representing the city and parish.

Johnson, whose group is often at odds with the ACLU, said the painting sends an inclusive message of equal justice under the law. He said the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that similar displays in public forums are constitutional.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/7/3/214656.shtml?s=ic

[trab]

Ya know, theres millions of PPL that are being trampled by the legal sys that they could help
instead of this.

[Dos Equis]

Ya know, theres millions of PPL that are being trampled by the legal sys that they could help
instead of this.

Exactly.  Clogging up the legal system with another dumb lawsuit. 

[trab]

Exactly.  Clogging up the legal system with another dumb lawsuit. 

Years back they got into it up by me here at Christmass time w/ all the small town public nativity scenes.
They gave it up after several losses. Thought they'd break the bank in some small towns.
I agree w/ lots of their causes sometime, but not that.

[Dos Equis]

Years back they got into it up by me here at Christmass time w/ all the small town public nativity scenes.
They gave it up after several losses. Thought they'd break the bank in some small towns.
I agree w/ lots of their causes sometime, but not that.

I agree.  They do some very good things, but they can be extremists. 

[24KT]

Johnson, whose group is often at odds with the ACLU, said the painting sends an inclusive message of equal justice under the law. He said the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that similar displays in public forums are constitutional.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2007/7/3/214656.shtml?s=ic

I think that last paragraph is misleading. The issue at the heart of the ACLU case is not the "public forum",
but rather THIS PARTICULAR public forum, ...a court house, which is an instrument of the state.

[trab]

I think that last paragraph is misleading. The issue at the heart of the ACLU case is not the "public forum",
but rather THIS PARTICULAR public forum, ...a court house, which is an instrument of the state.

Ya Ya they got all bent about the X-mass things on public land w/ Tax $'s too.
AN they got a point, and I aint no Bible thumper/ humper ..
BUT THERES BETTER THINGS TO SPEND LAWYER TIME ON !

[24KT]

Ya Ya they got all bent about the X-mass things on public land w/ Tax $'s too.
AN they got a point, and I aint no Bible thumper/ humper ..
BUT THERES BETTER THINGS TO SPEND LAWYER TIME ON !

Can't deny that, however, the ACLU has a mandate which they intend to follow.

The argument 'there's better things etc.,' is like saying "There are better things for the rich to spend money on than $17,000 pacifiers for their babies". No one can deny that, there are far better things upon which the wealthy can lavish their funds, ...however, it's their money and they should be permitted their shopping sprees no matter how overly indulgent you or I may deem them to be. Or do you not believe in the constitutional tenet of a separation between Church & State?

The only people I see these days publicly espousing such a union as ideal, ...are the Islamic fundamentalists.
Is this an area within which you find commonality between yourself and extremist Islamic fundamentalists?

Or is it that you believe that the separation of church & state is vital to maintaining and defending what's left of the constitutional principles laid out by the founding fathers? If so, would it then not behoove the ACLU to remain steadfast to it's mandate, rather than turn a blind eye to a threat to that constitution? ...especially in light of AlbertoGonsalesGate.

What say you? 

[gtbro1]

Can't deny that, however, the ACLU has a mandate which they intend to follow.

The argument 'there's better things etc.,' is like saying "There are better things for the rich to spend money on than $17,000 pacifier's for their babies". No one can deny that, there are far better things upon which the wealthy can lavish their funds, ...however, it's their money and they should be permitted their shopping sprees no matter how overly indulgent you or I may deem them to be. Or do you not believe in the constitutional tenet of a separation between Church & State?

The only people I see these days publicly espousing such a union as ideal, ...are the Islamic fundamentalists.
Is this an area within which you find commonality between yourself and extremist Islamic fundamentalists?

Or is it that you believe that the separation of church & state is vital to maintaining and defending what's left of the constitutional principles laid out by the founding fathers? If so, would it then not behoove the ACLU to remain steadfast to it's mandate, rather than turn a blind eye to a threat to that constitution? ...especially in light of AlbertoGonsalesGate.

What say you? 

Jag,does this sort of thing happen in Canada? serious question...what sort of laws do you have in regards to religeon and all that?

[24KT]

Jag,does this sort of thing happen in Canada? serious question...what sort of laws do you have in regards to religeon and all that?

Yes. We had a situation last year when someone complained about a Christmas tree in the front lobby of one of our courthouses. The complaint alledged that "as a person of another faith, to be greeted with a Christmas tree as soon as they walked in the front door felt like a slap in the face" ...or something like that. they felt that any decisions handed down in that courthouse could be based on religious beliefs and or dogma, and did not feel comfortable that decisions would be based on the law of the land. At the time, the information was passed around the office with no one being sure what to do about it. A judge at the courthouse decided it was an issue to be decided by the courts, and in the interim, the judge made the decision to temporarily remove it from the front entrance and place it elsewhere in the courthouse where those who wanted a Christmas tree can enjoy one.

A staffer at the courthouse got mad that the Christmas tree was taken from the front lobby and placed in a different room away from the public, and started a media brouhaha. When the shit hit the fan, it appeared that most people focussed NOT on what the judge decided to do to remedy the situation, as much as they did on the fact that the judge was both female AND Jewish. The TV and radio shows covered it and had callers voicing their opinions on it etc., Most people say they understood both what the judge did and why, ...just thought it was stupid. Some callers were extremely upset that their Christmas tree was removed from the front entrance. (That part cracked me up because the courthouse was in Toronto, but the caller was from Nortern Ontario. -- picture the difference between SanFrancisco & LosAngeles) We had a huge number of Muslims calling in to say they thought it was a joke and that PC had gone too far etc. Others called to say it was a bad decision because the Christmas tree is not a symbol of the Christian religion at all, it was stolen from the pagans because the Catholic church couldn't get the pagans to stop celebrating the winter solstice, so to say the X-mas tree in the courthouse lobby was promoting Christianity was incorrect. etc., etc., etc., It died down. Despite all the hoopin' & hollerin' tho, ...everyone seemed to agree that religious symbols really should not be placed in government institutions., ...but they were still pissed she moved the Christmas tree. go figure {shrug}

There was a huge brewhaha a while back because Toronto city council decided they would no longer call them Christmas Trees but rather Holiday Trees. I personally don't see the big deal. I've always been one to say Happy Holidays as opposed to Merry Christmas, simply because there are so many holidays around that time celebrated by so many people, ...it's just easier. Plus too, you never know what someone's religion is, and how deeply you can offend them to make an assumption. I wished a friend of mine in Utah a Merry Christmas last year. I thought the poor guy was going to have a coronary. Once he recovered, the guy nearly took my head off.  It had upset him so deeply. One of the hardest things was keeping a straight face, in the face of his verbal chastisement of me. I was soooo ready to bust out laughing, but to do that would only have compounded his displeasure. You see, he's an avowed atheist. The identical twin to the evangelicals who believe it is their duty & divine commandment to persistently proselytize, and shove their particular religion down your throat, ...whether you want it or not. 

[gtbro1]

Yes. We had a situation last year when someone complained about a Christmas tree in the front lobby of one of our courthouses. The complaint alledged that "as a person of another faith, to be greeted with a Christmas tree as soon as they walked in the front door felt like a slap in the face" ...or something like that. they felt that any decisions handed down in that courthouse could be based on religious beliefs and or dogma, and did not feel comfortable that decisions would be based on the law of the land. At the time, the information was passed around the office with no one being sure what to do about it. A judge at the courthouse decided it was an issue to be decided by the courts, and in the interim, the judge made the decision to temporarily remove it from the front entrance and place it elsewhere in the courthouse where those who wanted a Christmas tree can enjoy one.

A staffer at the courthouse got mad that the Christmas tree was taken from the front lobby and placed in a different room away from the public, and started a media brouhaha. When the shit hit the fan, it appeared that most people focussed NOT on what the judge decided to do to remedy the situation, as much as they did on the fact that the judge was both female AND Jewish. The TV and radio shows covered it and had callers voicing their opinions on it etc., Most people say they understood both what the judge did and why, ...just thought it was stupid. Some callers were extremely upset that their Christmas tree was removed from the front entrance. (That part cracked me up because the courthouse was in Toronto, but the caller was from Nortern Ontario. -- picture the difference between SanFrancisco & LosAngeles) We had a huge number of Muslims calling in to say they thought it was a joke and that PC had gone too far etc. Others called to say it was a bad decision because the Christmas tree is not a symbol of the Christian religion at all, it was stolen from the pagans because the Catholic church couldn't get the pagans to stop celebrating the winter solstice, so to say the X-mas tree in the courthouse lobby was promoting Christianity was incorrect. etc., etc., etc., It died down. Despite all the hoopin' & hollerin' tho, ...everyone seemed to agree that religious symbols really should not be placed in government institutions., ...but they were still pissed she moved the Christmas tree. go figure {shrug}

There was a huge brewhaha a while back because Toronto city council decided they would no longer call them Christmas Trees but rather Holiday Trees. I personally don't see the big deal. I've always been one to say Happy Holidays as opposed to Merry Christmas, simply because there are so many holidays around that time celebrated by so many people, ...it's just easier. Plus too, you never know what someone's religion is, and how deeply you can offend them to make an assumption. I wished a friend of mine in Utah a Merry Christmas last year. I thought the poor guy was going to have a coronary. Once he recovered, the guy nearly took my head off.  It had upset him so deeply. One of the hardest things was keeping a straight face, in the face of his verbal chastisement of me. I was soooo ready to bust out laughing, but to do that would only have compounded his displeasure. You see, he's an avowed atheist. The identical twin to the evangelicals who believe it is their duty & divine commandment to persistently proselytize, and shove their particular religion down your throat, ...whether you want it or not. 

    1) I can see why SOME people would take notice the judge was jewish....but WTF does her gender have to do with
          anything?
   
    2) when your friend became all upset ,what you should have done was smile and  say "hahahaha meltdown!!" 

[24KT]

    1) I can see why SOME people would take notice the judge was jewish....but WTF does her gender have to do with anything?
   
    2) when your friend became all upset ,what you should have done was smile and  say "hahahaha meltdown!!" 

When machiavellian types seek to discredit someone with no basis, ...they appeal to all the prejudices they can find.

I chose to take a more sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek, mea culpa approach instead. It worked. He started to put it in perspective, ...besides, I doubt the hahaha meltdown would be understood by anyone who doesn't post on Getbig

[gtbro1]

  besides, I doubt the hahaha meltdown would be understood by anyone who doesn't post on Getbig

yeah...I was kid'n.

[Dos Equis]

I think that last paragraph is misleading. The issue at the heart of the ACLU case is not the "public forum",
but rather THIS PARTICULAR public forum, ...a court house, which is an instrument of the state.

This is about the ACLU trying to cleanse all aspects of religion from public life. 

[headhuntersix]

This  is a case of the ACLU intruding into our lives for the sake of one person. Since when does the minority rule here...I guess since the advent of the ACLU. Fuck them...they are a threat to freedom.

[trab]

This  is a case of the ACLU intruding into our lives for the sake of one person. Since when does the minority rule here...I guess since the advent of the ACLU. Fuck them...they are a threat to freedom.

They do some wierd shit man, didnt they fight to get David Duke on a ballot?

[Dos Equis]

They do some wierd shit man, didnt they fight to get David Duke on a ballot?

They defended NAMBLA, but we've beaten that horse on here already.    

[trab]

They defended NAMBLA, but we've beaten that horse on here already.    

Wow, I had to Goog NAMBLA wtf.
Theres a point man.

[Dos Equis]

Wow, I had to Goog NAMBLA wtf.
Theres a point man.

Thank you.  That's what I've said more than once when this subject has come up.  You gotta draw the line somewhere. 

[MikeThaMachine]

They defended NAMBLA, but we've beaten that horse on here already.    

HAHAHAHA YES!!!


Seriously though we should send our troops to kill off the ACLU.

[24KT]

This is about the ACLU trying to cleanse all aspects of religion from public life. 

I wouldn't go that far. I think the ACLU is definitely trying to disentangle religion from goverment.

This  is a case of the ACLU intruding into our lives for the sake of one person. Since when does the minority rule here...I guess since the advent of the ACLU. Fuck them...they are a threat to freedom.

A threat to freedom, ...I suppose that all depends on your definition of freedom doesn't it?

I believe Diefenbaker (former Canadian Prime Minister) hit the nail on the head when he said:

"Freedom is the right to be wrong, ...not the right to do wrong" -- John Diefenbaker

Wow, I had to Goog NAMBLA wtf.
Theres a point man.

You had to google it? If I'd known that, I wudda referred you to Rush Limbaugh's biggest sycophant I-One. He uses the name Coach these days, ...but he seems to know an awful lot about them. For a while there, he mentioned them just about every other post, ...even posted their weblink within the forum a few times. 

HAHAHAHA YES!!!

Seriously though we should send our troops to kill off the ACLU.

It was hubris like that, and making light, of a very serious endeavor that got your troops into the hell they're in now.

You should send your troops home to their families, and loved ones, so they can get the love, comfort, and appreciation they deserve.

[trab]

Jag, you aint tellin me Rush is Gay!?

[OzmO]

This is all another example of wasted money and time over something that's no big deal.  they (ACLU) should look for bigger fish to fry.

[Dos Equis]

I wouldn't go that far. I think the ACLU is definitely trying to disentangle religion from goverment.

They can't.  Religion is everywhere, including in government.  On many of these religious issues, they are running around the country filing lawsuits on behalf of some dummy who gets offended when they see anything related to God and/or religion in the public sector.  They are extremists.   

[trab]

I allways thought the only major difference between Fallwell and Khomeini was - clothing, hairstyle and language.