Meet the Mob

[Straw Man]

that's your proof?

Where does he talk about denying health care to an eldery person so that an illegal alien can get health care instead.

The example that woman gave is something I know about.  I have a very good friend who's 92 year old grandmother needed open heart surgery and no doctor wanted to do it because they didn't want her dying on the table (and presumabley messing up their survival stats or causing them a legal problem).  It had nothing to do with "rationing" or denying her care so that someone else could get care.   

BTW - they found a doctor who would perform the surgery and 2 years later she still alive and kicking (but finally not driving which is good)

[tonymctones]

good example.  I don't approve of their actions.

From what I understand they are an anti-war group that does this kinds of stunts to get attention for their chosen cause

Now tell me who their corporate sponsors are.  Show the memos instructing them on how to disrupt the hearings.

Why aren't they doing this at every single hearing?

Other than the fact that they cause a commotion and get dragged out of a room I really don't see any other comparison.

Again, if you've got some additional facts I'd be glad to look at them.

Still waiting to find out who the corporate sponsor of the "don't taise me bro" is?

LOL who are the corperate sponsers? are you a fuking idiot LOL its the same shit bro but you dismiss theirs b/c they dont have sponsers? LOL youve turned into a fucking tool...

how about this complete and total utter idiot straw you really think he was in favor of an open discussion? and this was not simply a protestor but a talk show host...ya youre right though the left is the bastion of tolerance of ideas

Id say MSNBC was this guys sponser, what about you?

[Straw Man]

LOL who are the corperate sponsers? are you a fuking idiot LOL its the same shit bro but you dismiss theirs b/c they dont have sponsers? LOL youve turned into a fucking tool...
Id say MSNBC was this guys sponser, what about you?

Simple question - who is the corporate organizer and sponser of Code Pink?
 

[tonymctones]

All of this is of course besides the point youve decided to side step straw, whether these ppl are organized or not sponsered or not doesnt effect the validity or legitmacy of their arguements so why not address the points? are they not valid points?

youve seen the polls havent you MORE PPL ARE AGAINST OBAMAS HEALTH CARE THEN FOR IT, why is it all of these scenes are staged?

[tonymctones]

Simple question - who is the corporate organizer and sponser of Code Pink?
 

first tell me what relevancy that has? before i go to YOUR research for you.

[Soul Crusher]

Obama's cuts are not benefit cuts are they?

Yes they are, they are cutting payments to doctors and setting up medical boards where doctors have to get approval before they can perform certain procedures according to a "community standard".

[Straw Man]

how about this complete and total utter idiot straw you really think he was in favor of an open discussion? and this was not simply a protestor but a talk show host...ya youre right though the left is the bastion of tolerance of ideas

I haven't watched the clip but I assume Ed is doing the same thing that O'Reilly.

I don't like O'Reilly and I don't care for that tactic.

This is not the same as lobbyist and corporations putting together phony "grass-roots" mobs to go scream at town hall meeting in an attempt to simpy SHUT DOWN all discussion.  

[Straw Man]

Corporate sponsors?

You think these 80 y/o grannies there are being paid by the insurance companies?

Who sent the SEIU thugs to the meetings?  Wasnt that a processs of organizing?

And whats so bad about an organized effort?

Our president's only real experience in life is doing the very things you decry by being a "community organizer".  Or do you think that is some benign profession that only seeks to give food in the soup line?   

I doubt anyone except the lobbists are being paid.

I think the people screaming about socialism are simply fodder who believe everything that Palin, Hannity and Beck say and they are simple pawns being used.

There is no question that there is an element to these protests that are being coordinated at the highest levels of the health care lobby

[Straw Man]

Yes they are, they are cutting payments to doctors and setting up medical boards where doctors have to get approval before they can perform certain procedures according to a "community standard".

if this is true, how is it any different than what we have now.  Well I guess the difference now is we have health insurance companies making medical decision based soley on the impact to their bottom line. 

[tonymctones]

I haven't watched the clip but I assume Ed is doing the same thing that O'Reilly.

I don't like O'Reilly and I don't care for that tactic.

This is not the same as lobbyist and corporations putting together phony "grass-roots" mobs to go scream at town hall meeting in an attempt to simpy SHUT DOWN all discussion.  

LOL so every person at those town halls is a plant? hahaha again more ppl are against it then for it that is if the big bad corperate sponsers didnt get to the gallup poll as well   again make up your own mind straw quite taking maddow and olbeirmans word for it...

Is it not the same a staged event in which you try to pass one thing off as another, watch it he wouldnt let schiff answer shit he wanted no discussion at all what so ever and is sponsered by MSNBC...I like how you try to make a moral equivalency with MSNBC and fox but you deny the same with rep and dem protestors convienent huh?

[Decker]

Yes they are, they are cutting payments to doctors and setting up medical boards where doctors have to get approval before they can perform certain procedures according to a "community standard".

Those are not benefit cuts.

How does that differ from the review process for private insurers denying claims?


What you and your colleagues fail to understand is that federal programs must be extended to everyone.  This goes for schools and soon it will apply to healthcare.

It's easy to get 'great results' when you refuse to care for the sickest or to teach the poorest.

The problem is, in the real world, we have sick people who can't afford coverage and poor people who can't afford selective private educators.

As I posted before, that dimwit Pete Schiff (Mr. Gov. is the problem) can't even acknowledge the fact that government already keeps insurance costs down by virture of Medicare, Medicaid and Veteran's health care....you know, the unisurables that private insurance will not insure.

There's no profit in approving claims for really sick old people.

[tonymctones]

still waiting for the relevance of corperate sponsers?

[Soul Crusher]

still waiting for the relevance of corperate sponsers?

The democrats have thier little playback and actually believe the lies by Olbermann, etc. 

The people showing up to these meetings were told from many outlets when and where the town hall meetings were and to voice their opinions to their reps.   

What is wrong with that?

Additionally, the rage at these meetings is the fact that these bums ignored the voters on TARP, cap & Trade, etc, and these voters dont want that to happen with health care.   

[Al Doggity]

The democrats have thier little playback and actually believe the lies by Olbermann, etc. 

The people showing up to these meetings were told from many outlets when and where the town hall meetings were and to voice their opinions to their reps.   

What is wrong with that?

Additionally, the rage at these meetings is the fact that these bums ignored the voters on TARP, cap & Trade, etc, and these voters dont want that to happen with health care.   

The problem is that so much of the "rage" they are feeling is based on misinformation. You like to consider yourself an informed guy. Yet, you posted that Lewan group study the other day, completely unaware that it was a study sponsored by the insurance industry. On top of that, the info contained in that study was extremely inaccurate.

When you posted that study, your defense of its validity was that it was the most widely used report on the subject. If you had known it was sponsored by the insurance industry, would you have had reservations about its validity? Possibly not, since it said what you wanted to hear. But part of the reason you bought into it was because it looked and seemed official.

That's the danger with corporate sponsors. The study was discredited by the CBO and there is no doubt that Lewan played around with the numbers to support their case. Yet, people buy into it hook, line and sinker. That happens on a small, grass-roots level all the time, but when you factor in the money and the logistics the insurance industry is funneling into this discussion, there is no way you can say call this an organic demonstration. Most of these people are basing their opinions on misinformation.

[Soul Crusher]

The problem is that so much of the "rage" they are feeling is based on misinformation. You like to consider yourself an informed guy. Yet, you posted that Lewan group study the other day, completely unaware that it was a study sponsored by the insurance industry. On top of that, the info contained in that study was extremely inaccurate.

When you posted that study, your defense of its validity was that it was the most widely used report on the subject. If you had know it was sponsored by the insurance industry, would you have have reservations about its validity? Possibly not, since it said what you wanted to hear. But part of the reason you bought into it was because it looked and seemed official.

That's the danger with corporate sponsors. The study was discredited by the CBO and there is no doubt that they played around with the numbers to support their case. Yet, people buy into it hook, line and sinker. That happens on a small, grass-roots level all the time, but when you factor in the money and the logistics the insurance industry is funneling into this discussion, there is no way you can say call this an organic demonstration. Most of these people are basing their opinions on misinformation.

HA hA!!!!

You cant have it both ways Al. 

The CBO also said that Obama's plan massively increases the deficit and national debt and that his claims are bogus.  Was the CBO credible in that report?

[Al Doggity]

HA hA!!!!

You cant have it both ways Al. 

The CBO also said that Obama's plan massively increases the deficit and national debt and that his claims are bogus.  Was the CBO credible in that report?

Yes, I can have it both ways. As I posted in that earlier thread, it was two different claims.

First of all, Obama actually ended up including some of the CBO's suggestions in his proposal and the CBO re-issued a statement concluding that the plan could end up saving money.

Secondly, the CBO said that the Lewan report was using flat-out wrong numbers that would not end up in the bill. Not that they were interpreting the correct numbers in an inaccurate way, but that they were flat out using wrong numbers.

[Soul Crusher]

Yes, I can have it both ways. As I posted in that earlier thread, it was two different claims.

First of all, Obama actually ended up including some of the CBO's suggestions in his proposal and the CBO re-issued a statement concluding that the plan could end up saving money.

Secondly, the CBO said that the Lewan report was using flat-out wrong numbers that would not end up in the bill. Not that they were interpreting the correct numbers in an inaccurate way, but that they were flat out using wrong numbers.

 

The CBO has not on three ocassions panned obama's plan.   

[Al Doggity]

The CBO has not on three ocassions panned obama's plan.   

The administration makes  changes to the plan according to the CBO score.

Doesn't change what I said about Lewan and doesn't change the fact that corporate sponsored protests are terrible indicators of how people really feel about an issue. The corporate element warps the entire perspective.

[tonymctones]

The administration makes  changes to the plan according to the CBO score.

Doesn't change what I said about Lewan and doesn't change the fact that corporate sponsored protests are terrible indicators of how people really feel about an issue. The corporate element warps the entire perspective.

simply b/c a FEW ppl MAY or MAY NOT be organized by a corperation doesnt mean shit...again more ppl are against this then are for it unless those big bad corperations got to the gallup poll as well...discounting ppls anger and frustration at this administration and its agenda will only come back to bite the liberals in the ass...

[Soul Crusher]

simply b/c a FEW ppl MAY or MAY NOT be organized by a corperation doesnt mean shit...again more ppl are against this then are for it unless those big bad corperations got to the gallup poll as well...discounting ppls anger and frustration at this administration and its agenda will only come back to bite the liberals in the ass...

The real mobster. 

[Decker]

simply b/c a FEW ppl MAY or MAY NOT be organized by a corperation doesnt mean shit...again more ppl are against this then are for it unless those big bad corperations got to the gallup poll as well...discounting ppls anger and frustration at this administration and its agenda will only come back to bite the liberals in the ass...

Even if that were true, why does it please you that propaganda works to screw poor people out of something that can help them?

What do you get out of it?

There are real people that are behind these numbers...and lies.

[Decker]

Come on.  None of you opponents of UHC have anything to say about this:

What you and your colleagues fail to understand is that federal programs must be extended to everyone.  This goes for schools and soon it will apply to healthcare.

It's easy to get 'great results' when you refuse to care for the sickest or to teach the poorest.

The problem is, in the real world, we have sick people who can't afford coverage and poor people who can't afford selective private educators.

As I posted before, that dimwit Pete Schiff (Mr. Gov. is the problem) can't even acknowledge the fact that government already keeps insurance costs down by virture of Medicare, Medicaid and Veteran's health care....you know, the uninsurables that private insurance will not insure.

There's no profit in approving claims for really sick old people.

[Soul Crusher]

Even if that were true, why does it please you that propaganda works to screw poor people out of something that can help them?

What do you get out of it?

There are real people that are behind these numbers...and lies.

Maybe some of us dont want Obama and Pelosi making end of life decisions for us?

Maybe some people desire freedom over the relative comfort of the nanny state?
 

[tonymctones]

Even if that were true, why does it please you that propaganda works to screw poor people out of something that can help them?

What do you get out of it?

There are real people that are behind these numbers...and lies.

LOL decker you dont know what i believe or what im in favor of so why dont you ask before you ASSume...Im in favor of revamping the health care system Im not in favor of extending care to everyone on a few ppls tax dollars. Sorry folks you can get a job, dont give me prexisting conditions/they wont treat that bullshit. This is more about getting health insurance for those that dont have it then fixing the problems with the existing health care system and that is what im not in favor of.

[Decker]

LOL decker you dont know what i believe or what im in favor of so why dont you ask before you ASSume...Im in favor of revamping the health care system Im not in favor of extending care to everyone on a few ppls tax dollars. Sorry folks you can get a job, dont give me prexisting conditions/they wont treat that bullshit. This is more about getting health insurance for those that dont have it then fixing the problems with the existing health care system and that is what im not in favor of.

I'm drawing a conclusion from the following:

You assume uninsured or under-insured people are in need of a job.

That's mistake number one.

You defend the tax situation of the high end earners instead of base level insurance for those in need.

That's a moral mistake on your part.  You value high end dollars over the people's welfare.

That's mistake two.

Based on those two mistakes I'd say your a modern misguided libertarian like Pete Schiff and Ron Paul.