"Insurrection"

[Grape Ape]

if they were treated differently (from your perspective) maybe it's because they were different

The events of January 6th have never happened before

The sitting POTUS directed a mob to attack the Capitol to stop the counting of electoral votes in an attempt to prevent the winner of the election from being confirmed.  That is a short and concise and factual statement.

The violence that occurred after the George Floyd MURDER is the kind of violence we've seen many many times in this country in response to police violence against mostly unarmed and mostly black men

They were different for sure......but were still riots.  Just like baseball and football are both sports.

The media did everything they could to give BLM a pass.  They Firey but Peaceful chyron was probably the epitome of the dishonesty.

As for the mob trying to stop the election, I don't really know if they actually thought they could do that.  What was the plan, to sit around indefinitely?

[Straw Man]

They were different for sure......but were still riots.  Just like baseball and football are both sports.

The media did everything they could to give BLM a pass.  They Firey but Peaceful chyron was probably the epitome of the dishonesty.

As for the mob trying to stop the election, I don't really know if they actually thought they could do that.  What was the plan, to sit around indefinitely?

why did the mob storm the Capitol?

why did they erect a gallows

why did they have zip ties and stun guns?



Many of them are on record explaining why so I'm sure you can find out if you don't know by now

tell us why they were there

[OzmO]

The only thing that's silly is calling this an insurrection:  "an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government and take control of their country, usually by violence."  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/insurrection

Nobody was taking over the United States government.  This is as crazy as the Russian Manchurian Candidate crap.
This was a handful of idiots who broke the law, and some of whom were (according to the story at the start of this thread) let in by the police.   

Anyone who broke the law should be prosecuted.  But it's lunacy to claim someone with pepper spray was going to defeat the United States government, which includes the military, and take over running of the federal government in DC.

It doesn't matter if the possibility was remote.  Intention plus action is what matters.  Both are present here.

[OzmO]

Portland, Oregon, where they have been engaging in riots for almost an entire year, with a plethora of violent attacks on a federal courthouse and law enforcement.  Not even a blip on the radar.

What, the media not reporting what you think is important?

Imagine that...

I agree with you about our media overall.  It's crap.

Did FOX follow suit and not report it either?

[Grape Ape]

why did the mob storm the Capitol?

why did they erect a gallows

why did they have zip ties and stun guns?



Many of them are on record explaining why so I'm sure you can find out if you don't know by now

tell us why they were there

They may have had zip ties to prevent the police from using them:

The fire extinguisher tale was far from the only false or dubious claim that the media caused to circulate about the events that day. In some cases, they continue to circulate them.

In the days after the protest, numerous viral tweets pointed to a photograph of Eric Munchel with zip-ties. The photo was used continually to suggest that he took those zip-ties into the Capitol because of a premeditated plot to detain lawmakers and hold them hostage. Politico described Munchel as “the man who allegedly entered the Senate chamber during the Capitol riot while carrying a taser and zip-tie handcuffs.”

The Washington Post used the images to refer to “chatters in far-right forums explicitly discussing how to storm the building, handcuff lawmakers with zip ties.” That the zip-tie photo of Munchel made the Capitol riot far more than a mere riot carried out by a band of disorganized misfits, but rather a nefarious and well-coordinated plot to kidnap members of Congress, became almost as widespread as the fire extinguisher story. Yet again, it was The New York Times that led the way in consecrating maximalist claims. “FBI Arrests Man Who Carried Zip Ties Into Capitol,” blared the paper’s headline on January 10, featuring the now-iconic photo of Munchel at the top.


But on January 21, the “zip-tie man’s” own prosecutors admitted none of that was true. He did not take zip-ties with him from home or carry them into the Capitol. Instead, he found them on a table, and took them to prevent their use by the police:

Eric Munchel, a pro-Trump rioter who stormed the Capitol building while holding plastic handcuffs, took the restraints from a table inside the Capitol building, prosecutors said in a court filing Wednesday.

Munchel, who broke into the building with his mom, was labeled "zip-tie guy" after he was photographed barreling down the Senate chamber holding the restraints. His appearance raised questions about whether the insurrectionists who sought to stop Congress from counting Electoral College votes on January 6 also intended to take lawmakers hostage.

But according to the new filing, Munchel and his mother took the handcuffs from within the Capitol building - apparently to ensure the Capitol Police couldn't use them on the insurrectionists - rather than bring them in when they initially breached the building.

(A second man whose photo with zip-ties later surfaced similarly told Ronan Farrow that he found them on the floor, and the FBI has acknowledged it has no evidence to the contrary).

Why does this matter? For the same reason media outlets so excitedly seized on this claim. If Munchel had brought zip-ties with him, that would be suggestive of a premeditated plot to detain people: quite terrorizing, as it suggests malicious and well-planned intent. But he instead just found them on a table by happenstance and, according to his own prosecutors, grabbed them with benign intent.

https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-false-and-exaggerated-claims

[OzmO]

IMO, what the media says about both incidents is not moot, as I believe a dishonest media is more damaging to us overall than the Jan 6th, or the BLM stuff combined.

I agree a dishonest media is very damaging.  But my point about the media being moot is in the context of proving guilt in a court of law.

[Grape Ape]

I agree a dishonest media is very damaging.  But my point about the media being moot is in the context of proving guilt in a court of law.

Yes, that is correct in that context.

[Dos Equis]

It doesn't matter if the possibility was remote.  Intention plus action is what matters.  Both are present here.

Of course it matters.  Nothing was present.  It was literally impossible for some dofus wearing a viking hat (or some idiot with pepper spray) to take down the United States military.  And their action did absolutely nothing to take over the United States government and control the military.  To quote our president:  Come on man.   

[Dos Equis]

What, the media not reporting what you think is important?

Imagine that...

I agree with you about our media overall.  It's crap.

Did FOX follow suit and not report it either?

The media not reporting ongoing domestic terrorism.  Yeah that's kind of a problem. 

I haven't watched Fox (or any other network) since the day before the election, so I don't know what they are reporting, but I know Tucker Carlson and Mark Levin were all over it. 

Remember when a group of BLM/ANTIFA folks took over an entire portion of Seattle and established their own city called Chop?  That was closer to an insurrection than what happened in DC.  But the media is so horrible that I've talked to numerous people who don't even remember what happened in Seattle. 

[Grape Ape]

Remember when a group of BLM/ANTIFA folks took over an entire portion of Seattle and established their own city called Chop?  That was closer to an insurrection than what happened in DC.  But the media is so horrible that I've talked to numerous people who don't even remember what happened in Seattle.

That is a great point.  City blocks were commandeered, barriers constructed, etc.

No big deal.

[chaos]

This is silly.

Comparing this to an armed takeover with machine guns, sandbags, etc. in an attempt to minimize or dismiss what it was is pure spin.

They are caught on tape breaking windows to get in.
They are caught on tape saying they are there to install a new government.
People died as a result.
They broke laws.
They tried to disrupt our democratic process.

Never mind that it was highly unlikely that it was going to be successful as a reason to dismiss what it actually was.

You people need to own it. 

And those involved need to be prosecuted to the degree of their involvement.

I believe we covered this in another thread here, only one confirmed death that day was that Ashly chick shot and killed by a Capitol Police hiding safely behind a door in a hallway. Your second point about installing a new government is bullshit as we all know that's as likely as a peaceful blm rally.

I assume you then support FBI, CIA, DEA and every other alphabet agency searching and scanning video and pics to fully charge and prosecute the thousands of antifa and blm looters and rioters that have assaulted, stolen and destroyed for the last year and a half in the name of "equality"?

it's your premise so you pick one

make sure it had "much more violence" than the events of January 6th

just pick the one where more than 140 cops were injured, and more than 5 people died and where more than 521 people have been charged (so far)

Your stats are repeated media lies and make believe bullshit, cnn puppet.

[chaos]

Media aside, (which is difficult), Was there people in that mob with the intention of setting a new government?  YES! 

Can you provide a link where more than one or two people said this? I seriously doubt there was any large scale group of people with that intention. You're repeating media bullshit.

[chaos]

It doesn't matter if the possibility was remote.  Intention plus action is what matters.  Both are present here.

You keep saying this very straw man like but you haven't provided any sort of link or evidence to show that there was any type of organized attack to take over the government on Jan 6th. Just because you repeat a lie often enough, doesn't make it true.

[Dos Equis]

That is a great point.  City blocks were commandeered, barriers constructed, etc.

No big deal.

Bruh I talked to a highly educated friend from California who didn't know anything about this.  He is deeply immersed in politics, but gets his info from the NY Times, CNN, etc. 

Real journalism is dead.  That's how stupid stuff (like Trump is a Russian agent, insurrection, etc.) gets life, while stories that at a minimum should be investigated get buried (the Wuhan lab leak, Hunter Biden, etc.).  It's quite disturbing.   

[Grape Ape]

Bruh I talked to a highly educated friend from California who didn't know anything about this.  He is deeply immersed in politics, but gets his info from the NY Times, CNN, etc. 

Real journalism is dead.  That's how stupid stuff (like Trump is a Russian agent, insurrection, etc.) gets life, while stories that at a minimum should be investigated get buried (the Wuhan lab leak, Hunter Biden, etc.).  It's quite disturbing.   

The lack of Biden coverage actually changed an election.  There are polls that indicate it.

Trump was doing what he could during Covid to mess it up, and the Democrats were ready to hand it back.

The media and big tech ensured it didn't happen.

[Dos Equis]

The lack of Biden coverage actually changed an election.  There are polls that indicate it.

Trump was doing what he could during Covid to mess it up, and the Democrats were ready to hand it back.

The media and big tech ensured it didn't happen.

Yes.  I heard about a poll regarding Hunter Biden that found if the story about his Ukraine and China business deals had been covered it would have changed the outcome of enough votes to impact the election. 

I cannot tell you how many "ends justifies the means" discussions I had with people the past four years.  They didn't care if stories were true or false, if individual liberties were being violated, etc., so long as the end result was to harm and eventually get rid of Trump. 

[OzmO]

Can you provide a link where more than one or two people said this? I seriously doubt there was any large scale group of people with that intention. You're repeating media bullshit.

I did before back in January.  It was on video, people talking about setting up a new government.  I will dig it up if I have time tomorrow.

"large scale" is a qualifier and subjective. 

People broke in there and had that intention based on their words and actions.

[OzmO]

Of course it matters.  Nothing was present.  It was literally impossible for some dofus wearing a viking hat (or some idiot with pepper spray) to take down the United States military.  And their action did absolutely nothing to take over the United States government and control the military.  To quote our president:  Come on man.   

If we are talking intention alone, sure.  But actions say otherwise and what they said indicated intention.  Add the 2 together and I believe we have a legit charge.

[OzmO]

I believe we covered this in another thread here, only one confirmed death that day was that Ashly chick shot and killed by a Capitol Police hiding safely behind a door in a hallway. Your second point about installing a new government is bullshit as we all know that's as likely as a peaceful blm rally.

I assume you then support FBI, CIA, DEA and every other alphabet agency searching and scanning video and pics to fully charge and prosecute the thousands of antifa and blm looters and rioters that have assaulted, stolen and destroyed for the last year and a half in the name of "equality"?

It's weak if you have to cite BLM Antifa and the summer riots to counter my points.

They are 2 different instances.  the January 6th incident is what we talking about here.

If you want to talk about the crimes of rioting, looting and vandalism, we will just agree over and over.

[OzmO]

The media not reporting ongoing domestic terrorism.  Yeah that's kind of a problem. 

I haven't watched Fox (or any other network) since the day before the election, so I don't know what they are reporting, but I know Tucker Carlson and Mark Levin were all over it. 

Remember when a group of BLM/ANTIFA folks took over an entire portion of Seattle and established their own city called Chop?  That was closer to an insurrection than what happened in DC.  But the media is so horrible that I've talked to numerous people who don't even remember what happened in Seattle.

Are we discussing media coverage and how bias it is?  Or are we discussing whether or not FOX leans left?  Or whether what happened in Seattle is an insurrection? Or how people don't remember Seattle and should?

I think we are discussing whether or not the people involved in storming the capital building on January 6th should be charged with insurrection.

I say some of them should.

Of course they should have a fair trial...

[chaos]

It's weak if you have to cite BLM Antifa and the summer riots to counter my points.

They are 2 different instances.  the January 6th incident is what we talking about here.

If you want to talk about the crimes of rioting, looting and vandalism, we will just agree over and over.

What are your points? Nobody is denying it happened, you have your opinion that there was some sort of "insurrection" that we can disagree on. As far as the number of people actually killed, I believe Grape Apes link clears up most of your confusion.

[Dos Equis]

Are we discussing media coverage and how bias it is?  Or are we discussing whether or not FOX leans left?  Or whether what happened in Seattle is an insurrection? Or how people don't remember Seattle and should?

I think we are discussing whether or not the people involved in storming the capital building on January 6th should be charged with insurrection.

I say some of them should.

Of course they should have a fair trial...

We should be talking about the story I posted at the start of this thread:  how police apparently let some of those "insurrectionists" in the door.

And we should be talking about whether or not the people who were there unlawfully were trying to overthrow the United States government, and our military, take control of, and run the country.  That's what an insurreciton is.

Here is a link showing who has been arrested and charged so far.  I did an F2 search and it looks like not a single person has been charged with insurrection.  Why is that? 

https://www.usatoday.com/storytelling/capitol-riot-mob-arrests/

[ThisisOverload]

I did before back in January.  It was on video, people talking about setting up a new government.  I will dig it up if I have time tomorrow.

"large scale" is a qualifier and subjective. 

People broke in there and had that intention based on their words and actions.

How would they setup a new government?

You realize this is crazy talk, right?

Who would implement it?

They raided congress to make a statement.

You cannot overthrow the government in that manner.

At least not in America, yet.

[OzmO]

How would they setup a new government?

You realize this is crazy talk, right?

Who would implement it?

They raided congress to make a statement.

You cannot overthrow the government in that manner.

At least not in America, yet.

I agree it was crazy talk.  Just like any crazytalk you might hear at a rally or bar or festival or convention.  But the difference here is there were actions involved. 

[OzmO]

We should be talking about the story I posted at the start of this thread:  how police apparently let some of those "insurrectionists" in the door.

And we should be talking about whether or not the people who were there unlawfully were trying to overthrow the United States government, and our military, take control of, and run the country.  That's what an insurreciton is.

Here is a link showing who has been arrested and charged so far.  I did an F2 search and it looks like not a single person has been charged with insurrection.  Why is that? 

https://www.usatoday.com/storytelling/capitol-riot-mob-arrests/

Some of them were let in... so what?  Others broke in.

Is the investigation still ongoing?