Author Topic: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality  (Read 40833 times)

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #225 on: May 24, 2012, 06:09:39 PM »
Ok, I follow your example.  That said, what determines the order of importance of the principles themselves.   I assume the order is a ranking of sorts....greatest to least or worst to best....something like that?

That's something that each individual decides for themselves. There's no 'universal' ranking, although, rationally, there's at least a rough "ordering" assuming we all share some common values, which isn't unrealistic considering our commonalities.

OzmO

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #226 on: May 24, 2012, 06:48:30 PM »
No. Not common sense. If I were a fatso, I'd want to die, and it seems fairly common sense to me that someone who's hyper-obese would welcome the relief of death.


Are you every fatso?

Is every fatso you?

Do you believe every fatso believes and thinks exactly like you?

Quote
Right, but not because of common sense.
Exactly, because of the victim principle......however, its common sense that allows you not to have to debate it prior to killing the fatso


Quote
I think that my posts have made it pretty clear that I'm playing the devil's advocate.

I know, i was giving props and letting you know i appreciate it.

Man of Steel

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #227 on: May 25, 2012, 08:36:19 AM »
That's something that each individual decides for themselves. There's no 'universal' ranking, although, rationally, there's at least a rough "ordering" assuming we all share some common values, which isn't unrealistic considering our commonalities.
Ok, let's consider we have two communities of people whose set of values stands in opposition of one another.  Group 1 has as its core values integrity, order and love while group 2 considers chaos, brutality and violence as it core set of values.  Put in practice, if someone in Group 1 becomes ill they are cared for and treated while if someone in Group 2 becomes ill they are eliminated.  Both groups have sustained and increased their ranks by adhering to their set of values and both groups are fully aware and fully informed of the other group and what the other group stands for.  In terms of number of members in the groups it varies over time, but averaging counts it's relatively the same (45/55 split or 40/60 split between total membership in the groups).  Is there a difference in morality between groups?

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #228 on: May 25, 2012, 08:40:46 AM »
Ok, let's consider we have two communities of people whose set of values stands in opposition of one another.  Group 1 has as its core values integrity, order and love while group 2 considers chaos, brutality and violence as it core set of values.  Both groups have sustained and increased their ranks by adhering to their set of values and both groups are fully aware and fully informed of the other group and what the other group stands for.  In terms of number of members in the groups it varies over time, but averaging counts it's relatively the same (45/55 split or 40/60 split between groups).  Is there a difference in morality between groups?

I would argue that valuing chaos, brutality and violence isn't rational; morality (like everything in life) has to be rational.

Man of Steel

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #229 on: May 25, 2012, 08:52:07 AM »
I would argue that valuing chaos, brutality and violence isn't rational; morality (like everything in life) has to be rational.

What would define group 2's values as irrational?  Once again, I'm not leading anywhere...just goin down the rabbithole so to speak LOL!

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #230 on: May 25, 2012, 08:56:41 AM »
What would define group 2's values as irrational?  Once again, I'm not leading anywhere...just goin down the rabbithole so to speak LOL!

The initiation of violence isn't rational.

Man of Steel

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #231 on: May 25, 2012, 09:39:12 AM »
The initiation of violence isn't rational.

Ok, so initiating violence is irrational, but is responding to the initiated violence with an equivalent act of violence in some circumstances considered rational or appropriate?  

That said, given the notion that initiating violence isn't rational, is it defined as such because the initiation of violence can lead to the destruction of someone else?  In essence, initiating violence as a value is irrational because it can result in undesired chaos or destruction and as a community that shares basic commonalities we should employ a rationale that adheres to a set of values that avoids chaos, violence and destruction and employs values founded on love, order and peace?    

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #232 on: May 25, 2012, 10:26:56 AM »
I would argue that valuing chaos, brutality and violence isn't rational; morality (like everything in life) has to be rational.
Not to jump in here - but there have been warrior societies in the past who's morality valued the violence of combat the highest of all.
Some of which did pretty good for their selves.

I dont think violence in and of itself is irrational.
Unbridled, uncontrolled violence maybe. But not simply violence.

Man of Steel

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #233 on: May 25, 2012, 10:48:46 AM »
Not to jump in here - but there have been warrior societies in the past who's morality valued the violence of combat the highest of all.
Some of which did pretty good for their selves.

I dont think violence in and of itself is irrational.
Unbridled, uncontrolled violence maybe. But not simply violence.

axvo did clarify and say that the initiation of violence is irrational, but I'm assuming that a response of violence in regards to the irrational initiation of violence can be appropriate in some circumstances....it's the best behavior with which to respond in that particular circumstance.

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #234 on: May 25, 2012, 11:00:23 AM »
The bible was relevant in it's time. That time has passed. Like it or not, we no longer live in biblical times....not that folks had it so good back then.

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #235 on: May 25, 2012, 01:34:28 PM »
The bible was relevant in it's time. That time has passed. Like it or not, we no longer live in biblical times....not that folks had it so good back then.

Really?  All of it is irrelevant? 

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2012, 01:38:19 PM »
Not to jump in here - but there have been warrior societies in the past who's morality valued the violence of combat the highest of all.
Some of which did pretty good for their selves.

Right, but is "doing pretty good for oneself" the yardstick that we use for what is moral and what isn't? If that's the case, then Bernie Madoff was a pretty moral guy, up until he got busted.


I dont think violence in and of itself is irrational.
Unbridled, uncontrolled violence maybe. But not simply violence.

As Man of Steel said, I think that the initiation of violence and force are irrational (and, incidentally, immoral) and once someone decides to use force and violence against me, I am justified in responding using any means available to me, including violence and force.

Man of Steel

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #237 on: May 25, 2012, 02:26:36 PM »
Right, but is "doing pretty good for oneself" the yardstick that we use for what is moral and what isn't? If that's the case, then Bernie Madoff was a pretty moral guy, up until he got busted.


As Man of Steel said, I think that the initiation of violence and force are irrational (and, incidentally, immoral) and once someone decides to use force and violence against me, I am justified in responding using any means available to me, including violence and force.

"the yardstick"   What is that yardstick?  Man?  Community of men?  

As I understand it, we exist in an accelarating, expanding, dying cosmos; although, our existence is basically a cosmological radar blip…an outlier that will be eliminated....we are cosmic nothingness.  The cosmos began with a bang and will end with a whimper via continued expansion, accelaration and all life will succumb to a cold, dark death.  Given that foundation of chaos and lack of purpose the rational reason we strive for is merely illusory and the rational values we employ are essentially meaningless as we have no purpose on our own.    Still, somehow, during that cosmic radar blip, within the expanse of utter chaos, our galaxy/solar system/planet magnificently aligned and formed with such precision that it approaches even mathematical limits of possibility (that remaining possibility is amazingly small, but I concede mathematically not impossible).   Yet modern cosmology knows without a doubt that we are doomed yet we cling to the illusion of our own evolved morality and believe that harmony is the appropriate value to adhere to despite the ever-present and inevitable state of chaos we exist in.  Our man-made notion of morality is utterly meaningless by itself because we are essentially meaningless on our own; unless our existence has a genuine foundation of purpose.  Something beyond man, something beyond our perception of a chaotic universe, something that transcends the expanse of time and space, something with purpose that transcends our bubble of chaos is the only reason we can define morality.  In an existence of chaos we are that chaos until we introduce the yardstick, the transcendent bar with which to gauge genuine value and purpose from.

avxo

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #238 on: May 25, 2012, 04:22:34 PM »
"the yardstick"   What is that yardstick?  Man?  Community of men?

My personal opinion is that the yardstick of any moral code is how well it works at achieving, maintaining, a happy life.


As I understand it, we exist in an accelarating, expanding, dying cosmos; although, our existence is basically a cosmological radar blip…an outlier that will be eliminated....we are cosmic nothingness.  The cosmos began with a bang and will end with a whimper via continued expansion, accelaration and all life will succumb to a cold, dark death.  Given that foundation of chaos and lack of purpose the rational reason we strive for is merely illusory and the rational values we employ are essentially meaningless as we have no purpose on our own.

It's sad to see anyone claim their existence is meaningless and purposeless...


Our man-made notion of morality is utterly meaningless by itself because we are essentially meaningless on our own; unless our existence has a genuine foundation of purpose. Something beyond man, something beyond our perception of a chaotic universe, something that transcends the expanse of time and space, something with purpose that transcends our bubble of chaos is the only reason we can define morality.  In an existence of chaos we are that chaos until we introduce the yardstick, the transcendent bar with which to gauge genuine value and purpose from.

To be honest, I don't understand your mentality: you see existence as meaningless and without value; but after stripping any meaning and value, you go looking for it by contemplating the supernatural.

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #239 on: May 26, 2012, 09:16:22 AM »
Really?  All of it is irrelevant? 

Not all certainly, but much of it is.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #240 on: May 26, 2012, 09:30:49 AM »
My personal opinion is that the yardstick of any moral code is how well it works at achieving, maintaining, a happy life.


It's sad to see anyone claim their existence is meaningless and purposeless...


To be honest, I don't understand your mentality: you see existence as meaningless and without value; but after stripping any meaning and value, you go looking for it by contemplating the supernatural.

Well, what purpose do we serve in an uncreated, unintelligently designed cosmos that is expanding, accelerating and growing dark, cold and unable to sustain life?  For some reason, our cosmological existence is barely a blip on the radar, but for a brief period we evolved and will inevitably vanish.  Our mere existence was based on random chance and our ability to continue on indefinitely has been deemed impossible.  We recognize we exist due to no specific purpose, we recognize we're doomed and inbetween we fabricate a fleeting purpose.  So we attempt to validate and give purpose to ourselves, what do we add to the cosmos from which we came?  Nothing really, we'll eventually assume another form within the cosmos that isn't alive.   

Dos Equis

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #241 on: May 26, 2012, 10:25:04 AM »
Not all certainly, but much of it is.

Which parts do you think are relevant vs. irrelevant? 

Man of Steel

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #242 on: May 26, 2012, 04:13:06 PM »
The bible was relevant in it's time. That time has passed. Like it or not, we no longer live in biblical times....not that folks had it so good back then.

God works within the context of our lives to help us draw closer to him, but he is also timeless and unchanging.  We may advance ourselves in many ways, but the timeless, unchanging God remains and the sin in our lives today can only be reconciled via the same narrow gate of yesterday.  Yes, the bible was in full, canonical form a long time ago, but the God of that bible is the same God of yesterday, today and tomorrow. 

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #243 on: May 26, 2012, 07:57:34 PM »
Well, what purpose do we serve in an uncreated, unintelligently designed cosmos that is expanding, accelerating and growing dark, cold and unable to sustain life?  For some reason, our cosmological existence is barely a blip on the radar, but for a brief period we evolved and will inevitably vanish.  Our mere existence was based on random chance and our ability to continue on indefinitely has been deemed impossible.  We recognize we exist due to no specific purpose, we recognize we're doomed and inbetween we fabricate a fleeting purpose.  So we attempt to validate and give purpose to ourselves, what do we add to the cosmos from which we came?  Nothing really, we'll eventually assume another form within the cosmos that isn't alive.   

Now you're starting to get it! This lack of ultimate purpose, however, does not thereby mean there is no purpose simpliciter. We can still develop and inculcate our own purposes (meanings of life) and live by them. In other words, attempting to paint the irreligious person into a corner over lack of ultimate purpose fails because there are quasi-purposes that people live, fight, and die for (e.g., democracy, one's family, and so forth) despite their not having an "ultimate purpose" that they were created for. Not that you were attempting to paint in this way, just saying.

Primemuscle

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #244 on: May 27, 2012, 12:29:02 AM »
Which parts do you think are relevant vs. irrelevant?  

I would have to actually study the bible to answer this....and frankly, I am more interested in current events than I am in ancient history.

Leviticus had plenty to say about homosexuality and other things. Hopefully, what he said is not relevant today.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #245 on: May 27, 2012, 12:34:13 AM »
Well, what purpose do we serve in an uncreated, unintelligently designed cosmos that is expanding, accelerating and growing dark, cold and unable to sustain life?

Why do we have to serve any purpose beyond our life, which is it's own purpose?


For some reason, our cosmological existence is barely a blip on the radar, but for a brief period we evolved and will inevitably vanish.

And the problem with that is what exactly?


Our mere existence was based on random chance and our ability to continue on indefinitely has been deemed impossible.

Right, and?


We recognize we exist due to no specific purpose, we recognize we're doomed and inbetween we fabricate a fleeting purpose.  So we attempt to validate and give purpose to ourselves, what do we add to the cosmos from which we came?  Nothing really, we'll eventually assume another form within the cosmos that isn't alive.

Again, why do we have to have some sort of ultimate purpose outside of our own life?


I really don't understand your mentality. You've repeatedly stated that we need some sort of "external" purpose, or our life is worthless; do you really believe your life is worthless, save for some external purpose? If so, that's pretty sad.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2012, 08:11:49 AM »
Which parts do you think are relevant vs. irrelevant? 

It seems the going rate is:

Sins that disgust people - Relevant

Sins that people like - Irrevelant

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #247 on: May 27, 2012, 09:26:23 AM »
It seems the going rate is:

Sins that disgust people - Relevant

Sins that people like - Irrevelant

I don't believe in sin. I believe in right and wrong.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #248 on: May 27, 2012, 10:37:29 AM »
I don't believe in sin. I believe in right and wrong.

"Right" and "wrong", based on WHAT STANDARDS? You can't have such, without a measuring stick against which to make such a call.

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Re: Author: What the Bible really says about homosexuality
« Reply #249 on: May 27, 2012, 10:38:14 AM »
I would have to actually study the bible to answer this....and frankly, I am more interested in current events than I am in ancient history.

Leviticus had plenty to say about homosexuality and other things. Hopefully, what he said is not relevant today.

The Old and New Testament are consistent when it comes to homosexuality.  

Seems like it would be difficult to call portions of the book irrelevant if you haven't read it.