Opinions on this back routine

[sculpture]

Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol

Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets

Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure

Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so

I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement

Any thoughts?

[pumpster]

-IMO you should save deads for last, because you're essentially interupting the upper back work for deads then coming back to them again. I never understood the point of doing deads anything but last.

-As far as the pre-exahaust thing, no one can tell you for sure that it's good or not-it's simply another way to do it that has to be done to ascertain effectiveness. I'd suggest you try using it this way then try putting pullovers after rows, see which you like better. Or use both ways over a period of months if both arrangements work.

-Anyone read my other posts will know my feelings on BB rows-personally i think there are better options, from one-arm DB rows to T-bars to hammer rows to BB rows while facing down on a bench, thereby further isolating the back and taking the load off the lower back. BB rows for me never did much and are not only tiring but can be tough on the lower back. But if they work for you relative to other options, that's a good reason to continue them.

-Ya chins are tough but it's true that perserverence over time will get the reps up. Pulldowns of different types and hammer pulldowns can be very good alternatives as well.

[sculpture]

barbell rows can be damaging to the back and yes there are safer alternatives indeed. I started to get pain in the past when the weight got heavy and the reps lowish on the exercise and did'nt "feel" much from them hence my wish to position them later in the workout and at a higher rep range.

I ll try for a few weeks and see

As for deads being last i ve always done them early in teh workout otherwise by the time i got to them my grip was greatly weakened a i prefer to do the exercise with both hands in the overhand grip as opposed to staggered.

[pumpster]

As for deads being last i ve always done them early in teh workout otherwise by the time i got to them my grip was greatly weakened a i prefer to do the exercise with both hands in the overhand grip as opposed to staggered.

Up to you, i would just use straps so that it's not a factor and do em last. In fact i'd suggest straps for any lat work.

[dyslexic]

I would keep trying to start a lawnmower with no gas in it...

[ngm21084]

def dont agree with pump about deads being last but i do agree with getting rid of the bb rows and replacing them with one arm db rows on a bench taking the stress off the lower back especially after deads does plenty for the lower back...imo it is also good to change up the grips on any move every once in a while..i personnally use a different grip for my chins deads and one arm rows...my back workout is the same as yours only no machine pullover im using a db right now...imo its pretty solid...and stick with the chins they get easier and i dont think that any pulldowns are an equal alternative but to each his own...

[chaos]

Deads first.

Then.....Rows, all sorts of variations, then pulldowns all sorts.

[jpm101]

On this type of back program the Dl should be preformed first, as the ultimate compound movement. If your preforming it last you are not really doing it,or yourself, full justice to the benefits of the exercise.

People overlook the value of bent over BB rows as a great spinal erector developer. Not only for strength but muscular development, in that it can add a thickness to the lumbar region. The whole vertebral column can become stronger, as well as th glutes, hips and hams strongly. Hits the whole chain of important rear muscles.

Pullovers, either straight or bent arm, work well with a lat program. Extra rewards seem to come when they are done before a heavier compound movement, pre-exhaust style. I, and some others I have worked with, have done a set of straight arm pullovers, followed by the bent arm version and lastly BB rows without any rest between sets. Exceptional pump, exceptional results. Have also included pulldowns, rather than BB rows. With chins I just use one pullover version before the actual chin. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

There's absolutely no need to do DLs first unless there's a desire to see that area improve over the rest of the back. In BB circles upper back development is the more important factor plus most seem not to be aware that the lower back's already hit nicely thru squats (an even better and more significant compound exercise than deads will ever be) and various forms of rowing, making DLs less than essential in BB.

Also, as some here realize, deads are bad news for many in terms of injury potential. If they're done at all (vs. relying on indirect exercises or alternatives like hypers that aren't as hard on the back) after the back's warmed up from other things makes more sense.

My 2 cents.

[PANDAEMONIUM]

On this type of back program the Dl should be preformed first, as the ultimate compound movement. If your preforming it last you are not really doing it,or yourself, full justice to the benefits of the exercise.

People overlook the value of bent over BB rows as a great spinal erector developer. Not only for strength but muscular development, in that it can add a thickness to the lumbar region. The whole vertebral column can become stronger, as well as th glutes, hips and hams strongly. Hits the whole chain of important rear muscles.

Pullovers, either straight or bent arm, work well with a lat program. Extra rewards seem to come when they are done before a heavier compound movement, pre-exhaust style. I, and some others I have worked with, have done a set of straight arm pullovers, followed by the bent arm version and lastly BB rows without any rest between sets. Exceptional pump, exceptional results. Have also included pulldowns, rather than BB rows. With chins I just use one pullover version before the actual chin. Good Luck.

Pullovers rank somewhere between 5 lb dumbbell curls and the pustules that form on "dov's" genital herpes lesions.

[flexingtonsteele]

I did this today, pretty good back attack.

Pullups- 5 sets 8-15 reps ( mainly used as a warm up for the entire back )

Seated Rows- 4 sets 8-12 reps

DB Row- 4 sets 10-12 reps

Straight arm pulldowns ss/ underhand pulldowns 3 sets of 10 ea

Rack deads- 3 sets.

I do the pullups to warm the back up, then i get onto the thickening movements, then the pulldowns, then do the deads last so i dont have to use too heavy of a weight put still work the low back without wrecking it.....

[pumpster]

Pullovers rank somewhere between 5 lb dumbbell curls and the pustules that form on "dov's" genital herpes lesions.

lol

[pumpster]

I did this today, pretty good back attack.

Pullups- 5 sets 8-15 reps ( mainly used as a warm up for the entire back )

Seated Rows- 4 sets 8-12 reps

DB Row- 4 sets 10-12 reps

Straight arm pulldowns ss/ underhand pulldowns 3 sets of 10 ea

Rack deads- 3 sets.

I do the pullups to warm the back up, then i get onto the thickening movements, then the pulldowns, then do the deads last so i dont have to use too heavy of a weight put still work the low back without wrecking it.....

Nice. Rack deads are a good way to hit that area with less stress and risk to the back IMO.

[webcake]

I always do deads first. Warm up good, never had any trouble. Just one of those exercises in which i feel going heavy feels right. Yes there is potential for injury, but that is the case with any exercise. Plus im focusing more on strength a bit now, so certainly not going to do them last. Never liked doing pull ups first. Personally i leave them till last.

[Bobby]

Deadlifts are great if you follow the simple rule.

4-plates for enhanced athletes

3-plates for smaller athletes

Never go above these weights! This way you won't be ego lifting for numbers causing unnecessary risks etc, if the weight is so easy, do the exercise even stricter, slower and add more reps, make 3 plates feel like 5.

[chaos]

Deadlifts are great if you follow the simple rule.

4-plates for enhanced athletes

3-plates for smaller athletes

Never go above these weights! This way you won't be ego lifting for numbers causing unnecessary risks etc, if the weight is so easy, do the exercise even stricter, slower and add more reps, make 3 plates feel like 5.

I'm not "enhanced", but I use more than 4 plates regularly, am I in trouble



I follow a simple rule, the biggest, most compound movement of my workout comes first.

[PANDAEMONIUM]

Deadlifts are great if you follow the simple rule.

4-plates for enhanced athletes

3-plates for smaller athletes

Never go above these weights! This way you won't be ego lifting for numbers causing unnecessary risks etc, if the weight is so easy, do the exercise even stricter, slower and add more reps, make 3 plates feel like 5.

This post reeks of faggage.

[YoungBlood]

-IMO you should save deads for last, because you're essentially interupting the upper back work for deads then coming back to them again. I never understood the point of doing deads anything but last.

Most do deadlifts first because they can handle far more weight...it's an ego thing. I'm no different. Given the exercise though, I really don't care what the overall weight is, but I do want to hit it while I'm fresh and full of energy.
I get a much better pump/feel in my lats when I do deadlifts last, but the weight is substantially lower too. In this case, I feel that since you're doing a compound movement and want to build thickness/power, you might as well provide the most overload. I do that by using them first.
As well, I have issues with my back, and if I hit DL's first, I can concentrate on them better, and not injure myself.

[pumpster]

Most do deadlifts first because they can handle far more weight...it's an ego thing. I'm no different. Given the exercise though, I really don't care what the overall weight is, but I do want to hit it while I'm fresh and full of energy.
I get a much better pump/feel in my lats when I do deadlifts last, but the weight is substantially lower too. In this case, I feel that since you're doing a compound movement and want to build thickness/power, you might as well provide the most overload. I do that by using them first.
As well, I have issues with my back, and if I hit DL's first, I can concentrate on them better, and not injure myself.

That's the thing, if you're getting a better pump by doing them last and acknowledge the ego part, to me it's a no-brainer to do em last.

The only argument against that is that the likelihood of injury goes down when doing them first. I think the opposite, that by having the back warmed up first and using less weight the chances of injury are reduced. Using less weight doesn't make one weaker, the reduced poundage is only due to fatigue-if you progress upwards in weight over a period of time there's still an increase in strength. Same thing in doing higher reps to reduce the risk of injury, if you progress with higher reps you're still getting stronger.

[Bobby]

I'm not "enhanced", but I use more than 4 plates regularly, am I in trouble



I follow a simple rule, the biggest, most compound movement of my workout comes first.

That's a good rule, i follow it too.

if you're in trouble? the sky is the limit if your joints and tendons can handle it.
Most powerlifters are usually training around an injury or coming back from one though.

I stick to 315, when i did 405 i started to feel it in my right knee, safety first. I don't want to get teh hurt

[YoungBlood]

That's the thing, if you're getting a better pump by doing them last and acknowledge the ego part, to me it's a no-brainer to do em last.

The only argument against that is that the likelihood of injury goes down when doing them first. I think the opposite, that by having the back warmed up first and using less weight the chances of injury are reduced. Using less weight doesn't make one weaker, the reduced poundage is only due to fatigue-if you progress upwards in weight over a period of time there's still an increase in strength. Same thing in doing higher reps to reduce the risk of injury, if you progress with higher reps you're still getting stronger.

While you and I rarely agree, on these points I'm in 100% full agreement with you.
But I also prefer to do them first, which no study will show. If it does, somebody owes me some $$$ for following me around

[KSA]

Who use a trap bar for deadlift ?

[sculpture]

i wish i still could

back when i was at imperial college in london this old dungeon gym had one


one of the best exercise ever

i was young and didnt know much about logical sequences of exercises and so on and remember doin an agonizing 15 - 20 reps per set on squats for 5 sets or so only to then do exactly the same for trap bar deads

i was exhausted

[tbombz]

Chins - 3 sets to warm up, get good stretch an do them first because if i do them last i'll get about 3 reps lol

Deadlifts - standard, low rep stuff 5 reps or so over multiple sets

Nautilus pullover - 3 sets to failure

Barbell row - torso parellel or as close to as possible with ground 3 sets or so, lighter going for 15-20 reps or so

I guess what i'm tryingto discover is if theres any value in performing pullovers before a row, almost acquiring a sort of pre exhaustion effect if we consider a pullover as a lat isolation movement that limits arm involvement

Any thoughts?

personally i wouldnt do chins first, because if i started out on them my biceps would be too active. i need to do a movement which is easier to stress the lats first, then once im pumped i can go to pull downs or chins and stress more on the back and get more weight off of the biceps...


the pullovers are good but the machine gets too light really quickly. a better version is using a pulley with a v bar on the pulldown machine... this lets you go real heavy...


barbell row- i love barbell rows. id suggest alternating between regular bb rows, and smith machien bb rows. they are different with pros and cons to each.  i wouldnt stress going parallell with the ground, unless that is the position you feel the movement work the best. if you feel like your getting a better contraction in a different position, use that one.


you could add one or two exercvises too. db incline bench rows, seated machine rows, low row cable pulleys, hammer grip chins/pulldnws....   

[PANDAEMONIUM]

I stick to 315, when i did 405 i started to feel it in my right knee, safety first. I don't want to get teh hurt

This is pure beastliness.   Bobby, can I PM you my current routine for some suggestions?