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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 2ND COMING on May 31, 2009, 01:47:21 PM
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WICHITA, Kan. (May 31) - Late-term abortion doctor George Tiller, a prominent advocate for abortion rights wounded by a protester more than a decade ago, was shot and killed Sunday at a church in Wichita where he was serving as an usher and his wife was in the choir, his attorney said.
Tiller was shot during morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church, attorney Dan Monnat said.
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Controversial Life, Shocking DeathLarry Smith, AP3 photos A prominent pro-choice doctor who performed late-term abortions was shot and killed while attending church in Wichita, Kan., Sunday. Dr. George Tiller, here in 2002, was serving as an usher at Reformation Lutheran Church when the gunman attacked and then fled by car, his attorney said. Hours after the shooting, a city official said a suspect was in custody.(Note: Please disable your pop-up blocker)
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Politics Daily Commentary: Pro-Crazy Is Not Pro-Life
A Wichita city official said a suspect is in custody in the shooting death of late-term abortion provider George Tiller.
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What’s Your Take?
What are your thoughts about this shooting?
Read Answers (2)
National anti-abortion groups had long focused on Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions. In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.
Some abortion opponents had resorted to attacks against Tiller and his Women's Health Care Services clinic long before Sunday's shooting. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985.
Anti-abortion group Operation Rescue issued a statement denouncing the shooting.
"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," said Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."
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Our new toolbar integrates latest news into your Web browser and installs in seconds. Download It Now The phone line at the home of Tiller and wife, Jeanne, had a busy signal Sunday.
Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.
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"Pre-natal testing without pre-natal choices is medical fraud," Tiller once said.
After the 1991 protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media.
Tiller remained prominent in the news, in part because of an investigation started begun by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.
Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.
Abortion opponents also questioned then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' ties to Tiller before the Senate confirmed her this year as U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary. Tiller donated thousands of dollars to Sebelius over the years.
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It was Jeezus' plan.
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just a later term abortion
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Pretty disrespectful towards the church to shoot him right there.
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just a later term abortion
QFT lol.
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Dr. Tiller was not in violation of any laws
I doubt that matters to our law abiding, god fearing christian warriors
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just a later term abortion
do you find this amusing?
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Dr. Tiller was not in violation of any laws
I doubt that matters to our law abiding, god fearing christian warriors
like the good brain washed liberal that you are you bring religion into this...plenty of non religious ppl are against abortion...
what happend to that man is complete shit, that person should be brought to justice. I dont agree with his views or his actions but this was not the solution...
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just a later term abortion
sad but true
Pretty disrespectful towards the church to shoot him right there.
very true and in front of his wife...fuking horrible
do you find this amusing?
logically its really not that much different...if you can abort a fetus you should be able to kill old ppl who can no longer take care of themselves as well...
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{MB_72} psyops? {MB_72}
could be....
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logically its really not that much different...if you can abort a fetus you should be able to kill old ppl who can no longer take care of themselves as well...
So you're pro choice then?
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So you're pro choice then?
no, pro life with a few exceptions to certain situations...mothers health and rape
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just a later term abortion
Post of the week! ;D
(lord I apologize)
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like the good brain washed liberal that you are you bring religion into this...plenty of non religious ppl are against abortion...
what happend to that man is complete shit, that person should be brought to justice. I dont agree with his views or his actions but this was not the solution...
I agree. This was murder and the person who committed the crime should be prosecuted.
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Weird that Olbermann listeners aren't shooting people down...
Three guesses what channel this loony prick shooter was watching this morning.
Tiller was better known to Fox "News" viewers as "Tiller the Baby Killer", as he's long been described by Bill O'Reilly who has spent years targeting Tiller on the most-watched show in cable news. O'Reilly has long demonized him with allegations of performing illegal late-term abortions, characterized as murder by O'Reilly and his guests.
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::)
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Weird that Olbermann listeners aren't shooting people down...
Three guesses what channel this loony prick shooter was watching this morning.
Tiller was better known to Fox "News" viewers as "Tiller the Baby Killer", as he's long been described by Bill O'Reilly who has spent years targeting Tiller on the most-watched show in cable news. O'Reilly has long demonized him with allegations of performing illegal late-term abortions, characterized as murder by O'Reilly and his guests.
Oh damn... :o
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a huge tragedy. My thoughts are with the family of Tiller.
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Weird that Olbermann listeners aren't shooting people down...
Three guesses what channel this loony prick shooter was watching this morning.
Tiller was better known to Fox "News" viewers as "Tiller the Baby Killer", as he's long been described by Bill O'Reilly who has spent years targeting Tiller on the most-watched show in cable news. O'Reilly has long demonized him with allegations of performing illegal late-term abortions, characterized as murder by O'Reilly and his guests.
LOL ::) goodness gracious just when i thought you had hit your moronic peak you prove me wrong...when did anybody on fox advocate the killing of this man? olberman demonizes plenty of ppl 240 your ignorance is fuking astounding :o
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a huge tragedy. My thoughts are with the family of Tiller.
this
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no, pro life with a few exceptions to certain situations...mothers health and rape
i was being sarcastic my vertically challenged friend
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LOL ::) goodness gracious just when i thought you had hit your moronic peak you prove me wrong...when did anybody on fox advocate the killing of this man? olberman demonizes plenty of ppl 240 your ignorance is fuking astounding :o
cmon you can't be that naive.
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do you find this amusing?
I thought it was a gem of a post.
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i was being sarcastic my vertically challenged friend
LOL you should see me with the majority of my friends there all 6 foot plus when we stand in a group you can barely see me...one of my friends is about 6'7" he comes up to me and rest his elbow on my head that shit pisses me off....
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cmon you can't be that naive.
whats that mean? you think that foxnews advocated violence against this man? you think that olberman doesnt demonize ppl?
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whats that mean? you think that foxnews advocated violence against this man? you think that olberman doesnt demonize ppl?
has nothing to do with "but B did this so A is alright"
oreilly has a huge audience, he doesn't have to say "go kill this guy" for some queef off his meds to do something.
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has nothing to do with "but B did this so A is alright"
oreilly has a huge audience, he doesn't have to say "go kill this guy" for some queef off his meds to do something.
on the same note, some people probably believe obama talks to them when they watch BET
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LOL you should see me with the majority of my friends there all 6 foot plus when we stand in a group you can barely see me...one of my friends is about 6'7" he comes up to me and rest his elbow on my head that shit pisses me off....
lmao
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LOL ::) goodness gracious just when i thought you had hit your moronic peak you prove me wrong...when did anybody on fox advocate the killing of this man? olberman demonizes plenty of ppl 240 your ignorance is fuking astounding :o
Fox 'News' host had long charged KS physician with 'operating a death mill', 'executing babies', carrying out 'slaughter'
So how many people has olbermann demonized that ended up getting capped at church?
Who was the other shooter from late last year who shot up a church and his house was full of limbaugh hate speech?
i said it then, i'll say it now. lib hosts don't preach violence and hate. they preach on beaing a pussy, sure, but the proof is in the pudding and it's the right-wing listeners doing this shit, not the lib pussies.
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has nothing to do with "but B did this so A is alright"
oreilly has a huge audience, he doesn't have to say "go kill this guy" for some queef off his meds to do something.
sure it does, your saying b/c oreilly bad mouthed this person he is somewhat responsible for a nut job that goes out and commits a crime? hahahah wow...how about personal responsibility...you dont think olberman demonizes ppl?
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Fox 'News' host had long charged KS physician with 'operating a death mill', 'executing babies', carrying out 'slaughter'
So how many people has olbermann demonized that ended up getting capped at church?
Who was the other shooter from late last year who shot up a church and his house was full of limbaugh hate speech?
i said it then, i'll say it now. lib hosts don't preach violence and hate. they preach on beaing a pussy, sure, but the proof is in the pudding and it's the right-wing listeners doing this shit, not the lib pussies.
thats not the fuking point dipshit, where has foxnews advocated the killing of him? show me...you can express your opinion in this country or are you in favor of censorship?
LOL ive proven you wrong on more then one occasion with that libs dont hate speech ignorance so please dont ever bring that up again...blame the person dumb ass not oreilly, another lib smoke and mirror tatic ::)
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sure it does, your saying b/c oreilly bad mouthed this person he is somewhat responsible for a nut job that goes out and commits a crime? hahahah wow...how about personal responsibility...you dont think olberman demonizes ppl?
no i never said oreilly is responsible...
i said its naive to think t.v. personalities have no infulence on people's actions.
And i havn't watched msnbc in a year, i dont get msnbc anymore but when i did watch olberman, I can only remember him cracking jokes along with a ton of ad hominems.
The only time
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no i never said oreilly is responsible...
i said its naive to think t.v. personalities have no infulence on people's actions.
And i havn't watched msnbc in a year, i dont get msnbc anymore but when i did watch olberman, I can only remember him cracking jokes along with a ton of ad hominems.
The only time
LOL of course they have some influence why would ppl continually tune in if they didnt? that means nothing olberman has influence of his nut jobs as well, so what? a nut job is a nut job and thats all it is, this had nothing to do with fox even if he was a fox viewer this was strictly a situation of a nutjob...you hold the person responsible not a tv entertainer...
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:)
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LOL of course they have some influence why would ppl continually tune in if they didnt? that means nothing olberman has influence of his nut jobs as well, so what? a nut job is a nut job and thats all it is, this had nothing to do with fox even if he was a fox viewer this was strictly a situation of a nutjob...you hold the person responsible not a tv entertainer...
do you have a.d.d. man?
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do you have a.d.d. man?
LOL, never been tested but i have my suspicions
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{MB_72} psyops? {MB_72}
could be....
hahaha, holy shit ... I laughed my ass off when I saw this. ;D ;D
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:)
;D
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take a deep breath. Now can't we all just get along?
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^^ ;D^^
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take a deep breath. Now can't we all just get along?
her>polar bears
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you guys made me pull out the big guns lol
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like the good brain washed liberal that you are you bring religion into this...plenty of non religious ppl are against abortion...
what happend to that man is complete shit, that person should be brought to justice. I dont agree with his views or his actions but this was not the solution...
sure there are non-religious people who are against abortion just like their are religious people who are pro-choice.
unfortunately the people whose beliefs lead to these extreme actions tend to be of the religious bent. The suspect is in custody and though I haven't read any info on his motive I suspect he wasn't an atheist or secular humanist. I'd be willing to bet a dollar he was a bat shit crazy warrior for Jesus. Then again who knows, maybe the doctor just cut this guy off in traffic on the way to church. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see.
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whats that mean? you think that foxnews advocated violence against this man? you think that olberman doesnt demonize ppl?
The difference is FoxNews' audience all need to be medicated, while Olbermann's audience is more level headed.
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One of the greatest days in the history of this country.Hopefully this will happen every week for the next four years.We cry at this mand fate?Why?Did you cry when the allied forces killed Nazis that ran concentration camps?Same thing here.Fuck him I hope he rots in hell.
To 240,you sound as stupid as the assholes that used to sue Ozzy or Judas Priest for causing their kids to commit suicide.Yes,it was FOX news that did that.In fact,I think the move NATURAL BORN KILLERS is responsible for murders across the country.
The reason no one who watches Olberman blasts people is because NO ONE watches Olberman.
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sure there are non-religious people who are against abortion just like their are religious people who are pro-choice.
unfortunately the people whose beliefs lead to these extreme actions tend to be of the religious bent. The suspect is in custody and though I haven't read any info on his motive I suspect he wasn't an atheist or secular humanist. I'd be willing to bet a dollar he was a bat shit crazy warrior for Jesus. Then again who knows, maybe the doctor just cut this guy off in traffic on the way to church. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see.
and your point is? im sure the majority of the males who physically harm women who refuse to get abortions are atheist or secular...you ppl seem to have that liberal smoke and mirrors tatic as a knee jerk reaction...YOU BLAME THE PERSON...Jesus didnt tell this man to go kill him, either did oreilly the idea that either of these parties has some responsibility in this is just assinine.
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The difference is FoxNews' audience all need to be medicated, while Olbermann's audience is more level headed.
judi lol i dont even know what to say...you seemed to be a level headed person even though i didnt agree with your views...now you seem like another delusional liberal like 240 with a man hating trend starting to show itself... :-\
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The difference is FoxNews' audience all need to be medicated, while Olbermann's audience is more level headed.
Olberman has no audiance!!
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judi lol i dont even know what to say...you seemed to be a level headed person even though i didnt agree with your views...now you seem like another delusional liberal like 240 with a man hating trend starting to show itself... :-\
Where do you get the man-hating trend from? You're so susceptible to suggestiion it's scary. :-\
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Where do you get the man-hating trend from? You're so susceptible to suggestiion it's scary. :-\
just some of your comments of late, maybe they were sarcastic...ill point them out to you next time...where do you get that im susceptible to suggestions?
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just some of your comments of late, maybe they were sarcastic...ill point them out to you next time...where do you get that im susceptible to suggestions?
By your believing all BS brain dead rhetoric out there. One day, many of you are going to look back on some of the crap you've written here and actually believed, ...and you're going to give your heads a good shake. :-X
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By your believing all BS brain dead rhetoric out there. One day, many of you are going to look back on some of the crap you've written here and actually believed, ...and you're going to give your heads a good shake. :-X
LOL this coming from somebody who bought into obamas shit hook line and sinker hahahahahaha ohhhhhh priceless ;D
and what brain dead rhetoric is that? how about "change we can believe in"?
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and your point is? im sure the majority of the males who physically harm women who refuse to get abortions are atheist or secular...you ppl seem to have that liberal smoke and mirrors tatic as a knee jerk reaction...YOU BLAME THE PERSON...Jesus didnt tell this man to go kill him, either did oreilly the idea that either of these parties has some responsibility in this is just assinine.
Tommy - The fact is that you and no one (as of yet) know this mans motivation. Unless it's some personal grudge then more than likely the killer is an anti-abortion radical who thinks violence is a justified way to address his personal problem with legal abortion.
Violence by individual men against their spouses/girlfriend is not the same motivation. Surely you must understand this.
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Tommy - The fact is that you and no one (as of yet) know this mans motivation. Unless it's some personal grudge then more than likely the killer is an anti-abortion radical who thinks violence is a justified way to address his personal problem with legal abortion.
Violence by individual men against their spouses/girlfriend is not the same motivation. Surely you must understand this.
Im not defending this fack for one second he needs to be brought to justice and dealth with accordingly iono if the death penalty is on the table but if it is, its pretty clear this was premeditated and he needs to recieve the harshest penalty. Dont get me wrong i think this is severely wrong but its also wrong to try and pawn some of this nut bags actions onto religion or fox news like some of you guys are trying to do...a nut job is a nut job and thats all there is to it.
actually i heard he was a staunch anti abortionist who believed in justifiable homicide, i cant confirm that buts thats what i heard reported...
How is it not? this man killed this doctor b/c of his beliefs and actions on abortion, is this not the same for men who hurt women who dont get abortions? Its not different its simply more specific a case then this one that just took place.
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Tommy - The fact is that you and no one (as of yet) know this mans motivation. Unless it's some personal grudge then more than likely the killer is an anti-abortion radical who thinks violence is a justified way to address his personal problem with legal abortion.
Violence by individual men against their spouses/girlfriend is not the same motivation. Surely you must understand this.
and for the love its TONY...you can call me Anthony if thats easier.
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and for the love its TONY...you can call me Anthony if thats easier.
Pipe down Tommy
;D
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Im not defending this fack for one second he needs to be brought to justice and dealth with accordingly iono if the death penalty is on the table but if it is, its pretty clear this was premeditated and he needs to recieve the harshest penalty. Dont get me wrong i think this is severely wrong but its also wrong to try and pawn some of this nut bags actions onto religion or fox news like some of you guys are trying to do...a nut job is a nut job and thats all there is to it.
actually i heard he was a staunch anti abortionist who believed in justifiable homicide, i cant confirm that buts thats what i heard reported...
How is it not? this man killed this doctor b/c of his beliefs and actions on abortion, is this not the same for men who hurt women who dont get abortions? Its not different its simply more specific a case then this one that just took place.
Sorry Tommy, my bad.
Unlike you, there are a LOT of unstable wack jobs who really do get influenced by scare tactics in the right wing (media and otherwise).
most staunch anti-abortionist who believe killing doctors is justifiable homicide are usually radicalized christians or some other religious bent. I'd be amazed if this guy had no religious motivation for his actions
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just a later term abortion
BOOM....thread over.
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Pipe down Tommy
;D
say it aint so stella :(
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Sorry Tommy, my bad.
Unlike you, there are a LOT of unstable wack jobs who really do get influenced by scare tactics in the right wing (media and otherwise).
most staunch anti-abortionist who believe killing doctors is justifiable homicide are usually radicalized christians or some other religious bent. I'd be amazed if this guy had no religious motivation for his actions
and?
does the religion advocate the killing of these ppl? well then its just like i said, a nut job is a nut job...its not christianity's fault this man decided to go kill this doctor, its him being you guessed A NUT JOB...Get it?
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say it aint so stella :(
hahaha ;D
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and?
does the religion advocate the killing of these ppl? well then its just like i said, a nut job is a nut job...its not christianity's fault this man decided to go kill this doctor, its him being you guessed A NUT JOB...Get it?
I didn't say it's christianitys fault and I've made this point (not in this thread) repeatedly.
I have no problem with any religion until that religion makes drives a person to do crazy things.
If this guy turns out to be an atheist or secular humanist, etc.. then I'll stand corrected. Most likely he sees himself as a devote christian doing the lords work
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I didn't say it's christianitys fault and I've made this point (not in this thread) repeatedly.
I have no problem with any religion until that religion makes drives a person to do crazy things.
If this guy turns out to be an atheist or secular humanist, etc.. then I'll stand corrected. Most likely he sees himself as a devote christian doing the lords work
this is the thing you either dont understand or refuse to acknowledge CHRISTIANITY DOESNT ADVOCATE THE KILLING OF THIS DOCTOR...
A nutjob is a nutjob christianity didnt push this nutjob to do anything this nut job pushed himself to do this...you cant put this on religion when religion doesnt preach that, you blame the idiot who got the message wrong...
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I think elective late term abortions are aweful and should be illegal. If you knew the details, I can't imagine the vast majority of you wouldn't agree. I am mostly pro-choice though and think we should not prevent 1st term abortions...though its a very tough topic and I understand both sides.
However, this guy is guilty of murder, which requires just punishment. The guy was obviously a fanatic and unstable.
Jag, MSMBC and Fox news has basically the same programs from opposite point of views. They both work off the emotions of their followers, thats pretty easy to see unless you are so deeply entrenched on one side or the other. Fox is much better in the morning and afternoon. The evening is where both channels pander to their respective audiences. Olbermann is nearly unwatchable, he & Maddow are appaulingly sarcastic and condescending. At least as annoying as when O'Reily rants and cuts people off when asking them questions...or when Beck gets all emotional. I don't like any of their styles.
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this is the thing you either dont understand or refuse to acknowledge CHRISTIANITY DOESNT ADVOCATE THE KILLING OF THIS DOCTOR...
A nutjob is a nutjob christianity didnt push this nutjob to do anything this nut job pushed himself to do this...you cant put this on religion when religion doesnt preach that, you blame the idiot who got the message wrong...
AGAIN - I never said Christianity advocates killing of this doctor. I'm saying that it's likely that his Christian beliefs drove him to this insane decision. Sometimes extreme religious belief makes people crazy.
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AGAIN - I never said Christianity advocates killing of this doctor. I'm saying that it's likely that his Christian beliefs drove him to this insane decision. Sometimes extreme religious belief makes people crazy.
You say your not blaming religion, you say that christianity doesnt advocate killing of this doctor then you say that... ???
Again you are wrong, christianity doesnt advocate this so how could his christian beliefs drive him to this? the beliefs that drove him to this were his and his alone.
he is not crazy, crazy is a person who is not in touch with reality from what i can gather he is sane as you or I simply a sociapath and sociopaths arent crazy.
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Pro-life groups dennounce murder of doctor.
"Leaders of the anti-abortion movement gathered in front of the Supreme Court Monday morning to denounce the murder of abortion doctor George Tiller, who was gunned down Sunday while attending church in Wichita, Kan.
The pro-life activists also used the platform to blast President Obama's abortion policies and strongly question the beliefs of his Supreme Court nominee, Sonia Sotomayor.
"It is immoral and it is unchristian," Rev. Rob Schenck of the National Clergy Council said of Tiller's murder. He said the reaction to it "becomes a greater setback to the pro-life movement than anything the so-called pro-choice movement could do."
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AGAIN - I never said Christianity advocates killing of this doctor. I'm saying that it's likely that his Christian beliefs drove him to this insane decision. Sometimes extreme religious belief makes people crazy.
Quote from: Straw Man on April 22, 2007, 10:24:00 AM
Besides, my personal belief is anyone who holds a fundamentalist belief in any religion is mentally ill (for real) which again makes for a pointless discussion
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I think we can all agree the guy was a nutjob... Religious or not, he was a nut job.
My next question, is how different is this from Muslim religious nut jobs?
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Outside the clinic Monday morning, flowers were placed along a fence, and the anti-abortion group Kansas Coalition for Life left a sign saying members had prayed for Tiller's change of heart, "not his murder."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting
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One of the greatest days in the history of this country.Hopefully this will happen every week for the next four years.We cry at this mand fate?Why?Did you cry when the allied forces killed Nazis that ran concentration camps?Same thing here.Fuck him I hope he rots in hell.
Oh my god. A man was killed in church, and you call this one of the greatest days in history?
You're a sick man, BILLY.
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Oh my god. A man was killed in church, and you call this one of the greatest days in history?
You're a sick man, BILLY.
NOT AS SICK AS A "DOCTOR" THAT STICKS SCISSORS INTO A LIVING BABIES HEAD AND SUCKS ITS BRAINS OUT WHILE THE BABY SQUIRMS AND FIGHTS FOR ITS LIFE.ITS A GREAT DAY TO SEE THAT SCUM BAG MURDERING PIECE OF SHIT MEET HIS MAKER AND ALL THAT CHURCH BULLSHIT WONT MEAN A GOD DAM THING!!!!!!!!!
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Outside the clinic Monday morning, flowers were placed along a fence, and the anti-abortion group Kansas Coalition for Life left a sign saying members had prayed for Tiller's change of heart, "not his murder."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting
LOL
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Outside the clinic Monday morning, flowers were placed along a fence, and the anti-abortion group Kansas Coalition for Life left a sign saying members had prayed for Tiller's change of heart, "not his murder."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting
Unless you're Billy.
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yep - just like the guy that killed Dr. Tiller.
BTW - I've repeatedly drawn the distinction between the fundamentalist wack jobs and the religious moderates yet you seem to be the only one you can't understand the distinction. Why is that?
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now here is guy who seems totally sane and his extreme religious beliefs certainly don't make him appear to be crazy at all.
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AGAIN - I never said Christianity advocates killing of this doctor. I'm saying that it's likely that his Christian beliefs drove him to this insane decision. Sometimes extreme religious belief makes people crazy.
LOL iono what you think youre saying here, but what it translates into is that the religion drove him to this...this is IMPOSSIBLE as the religion doesnt say to do this, do you understand? you cant blame religion or try and make religion copable to his heinous actions when the religion itself is against them...
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LOL iono what you think youre saying here, but what it translates into is that the religion drove him to this...this is IMPOSSIBLE as the religion doesnt say to do this, do you understand? you cant blame religion or try and make religion copable to his heinous actions when the religion itself is against them...
the word you're looking for is culpable.
Do you think Randall Terry's religious beliefs have anything to do with his views on abortion and on Dr. Tiller in particular.
I gotta finish some work before 6pm and then get home. I'll chat with you later.
btw - were you able to make it through that entire video?
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LOL iono what you think youre saying here, but what it translates into is that the religion drove him to this...this is IMPOSSIBLE as the religion doesnt say to do this, do you understand? you cant blame religion or try and make religion copable to his heinous actions when the religion itself is against them...
I see what you're saying... But wouldn't you say that religion feeds the reasoning of some of these types of people... No... It's not religion that says "kill him", but isn't it often religion how people reason that it's "ok" to kill him?
They see themselves as doing "God's work" so to speak?
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I see what you're saying... But wouldn't you say that religion feeds the reasoning of some of these types of people... No... It's not religion that says "kill him", but isn't it often religion how people reason that it's "ok" to kill him?
They see themselves as doing "God's work" so to speak?
This point i see but that doesnt make the religion culpable(better straw)again if the religion doesnt advocate those violent actions its not the religion that is to blame its the nutjob to blame...If it wasnt this cause this nutjob would simply have another one...you cant hold religion responsible for something that it doesnt preach.
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There will be a plethora of information in the coming days that will reveal how irrational the man who killed Dr. Tiller was, and that he was as ridiculous in his ideology as those who are on the other end of the spectrum.
Regardless of the fact that I vehemently disagreed with his practice of taking the lives of babies in the most violent manner, the sanctity of Dr. Tiller's life was no less than these children. My heart goes out to Dr. Tiller's wife who had to endure watching some total nutball take her husband's wife (she was in the choir). :'(
No one wins in this story. No one. :-[
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There will be a plethora of information in the coming days that will reveal how irrational the man who killed Dr. Tiller was, and that he was as ridiculous in his ideology as those who are on the other end of the spectrum.
Regardless of the fact that I vehemently disagreed with his practice of taking the lives of babies in the most violent manner, the sanctity of Dr. Tiller's life was no less than these children. My heart goes out to Dr. Tiller's wife who had to endure watching some total nutball take her husband's wife (she was in the choir). :'(
No one wins in this story. No one. :-[
this is what this thread should be about, not blaming religion or political ideology...
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the word you're looking for is culpable.
Do you think Randall Terry's religious beliefs have anything to do with his views on abortion and on Dr. Tiller in particular.
I gotta finish some work before 6pm and then get home. I'll chat with you later.
btw - were you able to make it through that entire video?
i havent watched it im in the middle of a few things myself...ill be honest if its more then 2 mins i probably wont be able to finish it unless it has good looking women in it...ill try and watch it though
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This point i see but that doesnt make the religion culpable(better straw)again if the religion doesnt advocate those violent actions its not the religion that is to blame its the nutjob to blame...If it wasnt this cause this nutjob would simply have another one...you cant hold religion responsible for something that it doesnt preach.
Maybe, but the lack of tolerance of some religions is definitely a good starting point for the reasoning to commit certain acts.
Kind of like the crazies who fly planes into buildings.
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Maybe, but the lack of tolerance of some religions is definitely a good starting point for the reasoning to commit certain acts.
Kind of like the crazies who fly planes into buildings.
LOL you mean like the intolerance of much of the left for ppl who dont believe the way they do?
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LOL you mean like the intolerance of much of the left for ppl who dont believe the way they do?
people on the left are intolerant of people on the right forcing their views on Everyone.
I have a solution that's a perfect compromise and both sides get exactly what they want.
If you're on the right and against abortion then don't get one
If you're on the left and make the choice that an abortion in right for your circumstance then get one and live with your choice
See how easy it is?
Both sides get exactly what they want
I'm sure the people on the left would be fine with that compromise
How about people on the right?
They are rational, tolerant people who are not trying to impose their beliefs on others correct?
They would be fine with that solution right?
I wonder why no one has ever thought of this before.
It so simple
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LOL you mean like the intolerance of much of the left for ppl who dont believe the way they do?
I don't see the humor you do.
The left has intolerance for people who tell them what to do and how to live their lives... It's not the beliefs they are intolerant of... It's the way they are forced upon people.
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people on the left are intolerant of people on the right forcing their views on Everyone.
I have a solution that's a perfect compromise and both sides get exactly what they want.
If you're on the right and against abortion then don't get one
If you're on the left and make the choice that an abortion in right for your circumstance then get one and live with your choice
See how easy it is?
Both sides get exactly what they want
I'm sure the people on the left would be fine with that compromise
How about people on the right?
They are rational, tolerant people who are not trying to impose their beliefs on others correct?
They would be fine with that solution right?
I wonder why no one has ever thought of this before.
It so simple
well for ppl who believe the fetus to be a living human that really doesnt apply as it is basically murder...would you be ok if i went around killing ppl as long as it didnt effect you? doubt it.
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I don't see the humor you do.
The left has intolerance for people who tell them what to do and how to live their lives... It's not the beliefs they are intolerant of... It's the way they are forced upon people.
plenty of left ideals are pushed upon ppl dont be ignorant or is politcal correctness something that religion drew up to scare their followers?
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I think elective late term abortions are aweful and should be illegal. If you knew the details, I can't imagine the vast majority of you wouldn't agree. I am mostly pro-choice though and think we should not prevent 1st term abortions...though its a very tough topic and I understand both sides.
However, this guy is guilty of murder, which requires just punishment. The guy was obviously a fanatic and unstable.
Jag, MSMBC and Fox news has basically the same programs from opposite point of views. They both work off the emotions of their followers, thats pretty easy to see unless you are so deeply entrenched on one side or the other. Fox is much better in the morning and afternoon. The evening is where both channels pander to their respective audiences. Olbermann is nearly unwatchable, he & Maddow are appaulingly sarcastic and condescending. At least as annoying as when O'Reily rants and cuts people off when asking them questions...or when Beck gets all emotional. I don't like any of their styles.
I don't deny this. What I'm saying is that Olbermann & Maddows' audiences are far more level headed and menatlly stable than O'reilly's or Hannity's audiences. That is the difference. O'Reilly's & Hannity's audiences need to be lobotomized if they haven't been so already. They cater to the most twisted and mentally instable segments of society.
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well for ppl who believe the fetus to be a living human that really doesnt apply as it is basically murder...would you be ok if i went around killing ppl as long as it didnt effect you? doubt it.
fine - if some people believe that then don't get an abortion
but you don't get to impose your beliefs on others
no one on the left is telling anyone on the right they must get an abortion
do you see the difference (seriously)
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plenty of left ideals are pushed upon ppl dont be ignorant or is politcal correctness something that religion drew up to scare their followers?
how about giving us an example or two
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plenty of left ideals are pushed upon ppl dont be ignorant or is politcal correctness something that religion drew up to scare their followers?
You're saying telling other people to not be mean or derogatory is the same as telling people that if you don't believe in God you're going to hell?
When was the last time you saw an Atheist stand on a street corner with a Bull Horn and tell people that if they don't stop believing in God then bad things will happen to them?
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You're saying telling other people to not be mean or derogatory is the same as telling people that if you don't believe in God you're going to hell?
When was the last time you saw an Atheist stand on a street corner with a Bull Horn and tell people that if they don't stop believing in God then bad things will happen to them?
That raving misandryst RavenNicWilliams had a really good video about this very subject,
but unfortunately she went too far and got her account suspended. She really broke it down though.
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Palin Condemns Abortion Doc's Murder
Monday, June 1, 2009 8:32 PM
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin released the following statement on her SarahPac Web site Monday condemning the murder of abortion physician George Tiller:
"I feel sorrow for the Tiller family. I respect the sanctity of life and the tragedy that took place today in Kansas clearly violates respect for life. This murder also damages the positive message of life, for the unborn, and for those living. Ask yourself, 'What will those who have not yet decided personally where they stand on this issue take away from today's event in Kansas?'
Regardless of my strong objection to Dr. Tiller's abortion practices, violence is never an answer in advancing the pro-life message."
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/palin_abortion_doc/2009/06/01/220367.html
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fine - if some people believe that then don't get an abortion
but you don't get to impose your beliefs on others
no one on the left is telling anyone on the right they must get an abortion
do you see the difference (seriously)
i see the difference do you see that certain ppl believe this to be murder? again would you be ok if i killed ppl as long as it didnt effect you? murder is wrong in all cases, so why would they be ok with this instance?
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how about giving us an example or two
political correctness itself is an example...
You're saying telling other people to not be mean or derogatory is the same as telling people that if you don't believe in God you're going to hell?
When was the last time you saw an Atheist stand on a street corner with a Bull Horn and tell people that if they don't stop believing in God then bad things will happen to them?
LOL again you commit a major fallacy of the left arguing that everybody who is pro life is a religious nut job... ::) argue from logic not from bias...
If you believe abortion to be murder then why would you be ok with it?
ps. political correctness isnt just in words its in actions, suppressing actions, limiting oppurtunities of others...affirmative action ring a bell?...the fire fighters in conn. ring a bell?
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political correctness itself is an example...
LOL again you commit a major fallacy of the left arguing that everybody who is pro life is a religious nut job... ::) argue from logic not from bias...
If you believe abortion to be murder then why would you be ok with it?
ps. political correctness isnt just in words its in actions, suppressing actions, limiting oppurtunities of others...affirmative action ring a bell?...the fire fighters in conn. ring a bell?
Tony, you use LOL quite a bit when nothing is actually funny.
I'm not saying that everyone who is pro-life is a religious nut job... I didn't even mention pro-life people... I just said people standing on street corners telling you you're going to hell... I meant in general, for being sinners or whatever.
There was a group on La Brea about a month or so ago just standing out there with a Bull Horn telling people they were going to Hell if they weren't saved. It wasn't about Abortion (it may have been about homosexuality, I dunno, I didn't pay any attention to what they were preaching, just that they WERE preaching), but my point is you NEVER see an Athiest do that.
Never... It just does not happen... At least I've NEVER seen it. Not once.
I however, HAVE seen religious people do what I've stated above.
This goes well beyond Abortion... My point is that you can talk about how this person is a religious nut or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, it's a RELIGIOUS nut... It's not an "athiestic nut"... That just doesn't happen.
Hell, I've never even heard of an Athiest going nuts like that except some power hungry person like Stalin or Hitler, and they just hate religion because it messes with their power base. Not because they really care about religion... They just knew that people will follow their religions over them and that wasn't allowed.
You certainly don't hear about any Athiest terrorist or Athiest extremists anywhere.
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Tony, you use LOL quite a bit when nothing is actually funny.
I'm not saying that everyone who is pro-life is a religious nut job... I didn't even mention pro-life people... I just said people standing on street corners telling you you're going to hell... I meant in general, for being sinners or whatever.
There was a group on La Brea about a month or so ago just standing out there with a Bull Horn telling people they were going to Hell if they weren't saved. It wasn't about Abortion (it may have been about homosexuality, I dunno, I didn't pay any attention to what they were preaching, just that they WERE preaching), but my point is you NEVER see an Athiest do that.
Never... It just does not happen... At least I've NEVER seen it. Not once.
I however, HAVE seen religious people do what I've stated above.
This goes well beyond Abortion... My point is that you can talk about how this person is a religious nut or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, it's a RELIGIOUS nut... It's not an "athiestic nut"... That just doesn't happen.
Hell, I've never even heard of an Athiest going nuts like that except some power hungry person like Stalin or Hitler, and they just hate religion because it messes with their power base. Not because they really care about religion... They just knew that people will follow their religions over them and that wasn't allowed.
You certainly don't hear about any Athiest terrorist or Athiest extremists anywhere.
LOL ;D hahah im one of those ppl who can find humor in just about anything bro no offense meant to plz dont take any...
LOL sorry again but the idea that there are no atheist terrorist or atheistic nuts is fuking laughable...there are plenty of terrorist out there who commit crimes that have nothing to do with religion...there are also plenty of atheist activist simply b/c they arent preaching religion doesnt mean they arent preaching...
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LOL ;D hahah im one of those ppl who can find humor in just about anything bro no offense meant to plz dont take any...
LOL sorry again but the idea that there are no atheist terrorist or atheistic nuts is fuking laughable...there are plenty of terrorist out there who commit crimes that have nothing to do with religion...there are also plenty of atheist activist simply b/c they arent preaching religion doesnt mean they arent preaching...
I didn't say that there weren't terrorists who weren't religious... I said there was no Athiest terrorists.
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political correctness itself is an example...
LOL again you commit a major fallacy of the left arguing that everybody who is pro life is a religious nut job... ::) argue from logic not from bias...
If you believe abortion to be murder then why would you be ok with it?
I'm against political correctness and pro honest expression of feelings
I don't believe abortion is murder
why do you think your beliefs trump my beliefs?
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I didn't say that there weren't terrorists who weren't religious... I said there was no Athiest terrorists.
Im not sure i see the difference a person who isnt religous who performs terrorist acts is indeed a athiest terrorist?
how about the unabomber?
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Im not sure i see the difference a person who isnt religous who performs terrorist acts is indeed a athiest terrorist?
how about the unabomber?
The difference is that no one performs the terrorist act under the guise of it being done to promote atheistic right in the world... While the religous terrorist performs it under the guise of doing it to promote the religious right. (and by right I mean "just" and good)
There is a huge difference there.
Teddy did it to promote Anarchy... Neither religious or atheistic.
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I'm against political correctness and pro honest expression of feelings
I don't believe abortion is murder
why do you think your beliefs trump my beliefs?
I agree but now that you realize political correctness is what it is please dont think that the left doesnt push its views on ppl...
b/c I believe its murder and murder is against the law its not that my beliefs trump yours its that I believe the law trumps yours and i believe the supreme court got it wrong...im not telling you not to get an abortion as of now its your right and im sure if the supreme court rules which in all honesty i think it will sonner or later you will feel the same way i do.
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I agree but now that you realize political correctness is what it is please dont think that the left doesnt push its views on ppl...
b/c I believe its murder and murder is against the law its not that my beliefs trump yours its that I believe the law trumps yours and i believe the supreme court got it wrong...im not telling you not to get an abortion as of now its your right and im sure if the supreme court rules which in all honesty i think it will sonner or later you will feel the same way i do.
I don't agree with PC either, but I don't think you can call Political Correctness a Liberal thing. Many right wing groups believe in it as well.
None the less, I don't believe anyone should be able to keep you from speaking the truth about someone or something.
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The difference is that no one performs the terrorist act under the guise of it being done to promote atheistic right in the world... While the religous terrorist performs it under the guise of doing it to promote the religious right. (and by right I mean "just" and good)
There is a huge difference there.
Teddy did it to promote Anarchy... Neither religious or atheistic.
LOL again so there has never been attacks against a religious person or entity by a atheistic person or entity? thats what your saying? the harrasement that takes place on a daily basis on the religion board should give you an idea of the tolerance of some of your fellow atheist...
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I don't agree with PC either, but I don't think you can call Political Correctness a Liberal thing. Many right wing groups believe in it as well.
None the less, I don't believe anyone should be able to keep you from speaking the truth about someone or something.
I agree however its just like there are plenty of what most would consider liberal groups who are pro life but pro life is deemed a conservative thing...fact is the majority of pro life advocates are conservative and the majority of political correctness advocates are liberal...
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LOL again so there has never been attacks against a religious person or entity by a atheistic person or entity? thats what your saying? the harrasement that takes place on a daily basis on the religion board should give you an idea of the tolerance of some of your fellow atheist...
No Tony... What I'm saying that you're not grasping is that no one does a terrorist act in the NAME of Athiesm... Sure athiests do bad shit... but no one ever gets up and says, "we're doing this to promote athiesm or an atheistic belief"
What I'm saying isn't that complex and you know I'm right.
I am not an Athiest so I don't understand why would say I am.
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No Tony... What I'm saying that you're not grasping is that no one does a terrorist act in the NAME of Athiesm... Sure athiests do bad shit... but no one ever gets up and says, "we're doing this to promote athiesm or an atheistic belief"
What I'm saying isn't that complex and you know I'm right.
I am not an Athiest so I don't understand why would say I am.
sorry i should have phrased it better thats what i meant...The idea that atheist groups or ppl dont target religious groups simply b/c they are religious is not true...you have ppl pushing atheism and secularism right now you really think that there has been no acts violence?
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I agree but now that you realize political correctness is what it is please dont think that the left doesnt push its views on ppl...
b/c I believe its murder and murder is against the law its not that my beliefs trump yours its that I believe the law trumps yours and i believe the supreme court got it wrong...im not telling you not to get an abortion as of now its your right and im sure if the supreme court rules which in all honesty i think it will sonner or later you will feel the same way i do.
what law are you talking about?
do live in the United States of America?
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what law are you talking about?
do live in the United States of America?
the law that says you cant unjustifiable kill ppl...
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sorry i should have phrased it better thats what i meant...The idea that atheist groups or ppl dont target religious groups simply b/c they are religious is not true...you have ppl pushing atheism and secularism right now you really think that there has been no acts violence?
I haven't seen any... Have you? Please post some if you have and educate me... I'm saying that I have not been privy to any cases where violence was brought upon a religious group simply because that group was religous and the violent people didn't believe in religion.
Have you heard of that?
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the law that says you cant unjustifiable kill ppl...
when does a "person" come into being?
in the eyes of the law corporations have more rights than a fetus
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the law that says you cant unjustifiable kill ppl...
According to the abortion laws, abortion isn't killing a person. So the law for abortion trumps the belief it's wrong.
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I haven't seen any... Have you? Please post some if you have and educate me... I'm saying that I have not been privy to any cases where violence was brought upon a religious group simply because that group was religous and the violent people didn't believe in religion.
Have you heard of that?
ill look some up in the morning its about midnight here and i gotta get to bed but ill see if i can find some in the morning.
when does a "person" come into being?
in the eyes of the law corporations have more rights than a fetus
ahhh this is what this debate always comes back too...fact is neither side has the answer
According to the abortion laws, abortion isn't killing a person. So the law for abortion trumps the belief it's wrong.
No it doesnt trump the idea that its wrong it trumps the idea that its illegal theres a difference...sooner or later the law will be inturpreted in reverse and im sure you two will feel the way i do now...
good night folks...ill respond in the morning.
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ill look some up in the morning its about midnight here and i gotta get to bed but ill see if i can find some in the morning.
ahhh this is what this debate always comes back too...fact is neither side has the answer
No it doesnt trump the idea that its wrong it trumps the idea that its illegal theres a difference...sooner or later the law will be inturpreted in reverse and im sure you two will feel the way i do now...
good night folks...ill respond in the morning.
Looking forward to it.
Personally, if abortion gets switched... I don't see it being the same.
Before abortion, did you hear about churches getting blown up so that abortion could become legal? I don't think so.
I also don't think abortion laws will ever change... The world is changing and with it, the idea that abortion is even an issue anymore is changing.
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ahhh this is what this debate always comes back too...fact is neither side has the answer
so your belief is no more or less valid than my belief??
that's pretty much what I've been saying all along
have your belief and apply it to yourself and I'll do the same thing
I won't impose my belief on you and vice versa
see how easy that is?
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the law that says you cant unjustifiable kill ppl...
So how do you feel about the US invasion of Iraq?
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I haven't seen any... Have you? Please post some if you have and educate me... I'm saying that I have not been privy to any cases where violence was brought upon a religious group simply because that group was religous and the violent people didn't believe in religion.
Have you heard of that?
"Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in the near-extinction of the Russian Orthodox Church: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.
Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."
Alexander N. Yakovlev (2002). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. pp. 165.
http://books.google.com/books?visbn=0300103220&id=ChRk43tVxTwC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&ots=ICIxg28Jud&dq=a+century+of+violence+in+soviet+russia+the+Russian+Orthodox+clergy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=C9k9Hr7Vn222WCHf_1iSJOHVsgo (http://books.google.com/books?visbn=0300103220&id=ChRk43tVxTwC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&ots=ICIxg28Jud&dq=a+century+of+violence+in+soviet+russia+the+Russian+Orthodox+clergy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=C9k9Hr7Vn222WCHf_1iSJOHVsgo)
Richard Pipes (2001). Communism: A History. Modern Library Chronicles. pp. 66.
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LOL... the shooter probably supported the war in iraq and sanctions that killed lots of babies
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Apparently the suspect is a right-wing religious nutjob who's been harassing abortion clinics for years.
What I found interesting is that many anti-abortion activists apparently thinks 'Tiller had it coming' or 'the murderer did something good'.
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LOL... the shooter probably supported the war in iraq and sanctions that killed lots of babies
I doubt it.The guy DESPISED the government!!!To Hegdehog,Tiller DID have it coming,now he can rot in hell.Too bad it didnt take a lot longer for him to die.I would have loved to have seen him suffer a MUCH more painful death.
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I would have loved to have seen him suffer a MUCH more painful death.
What would be the point of that?
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I doubt it.The guy DESPISED the government!!!To Hegdehog,Tiller DID have it coming,now he can rot in hell.Too bad it didnt take a lot longer for him to die.I would have loved to have seen him suffer a MUCH more painful death.
he was a member of a righ-wing, anti-govt group.
i know code pink and moveon.org get all sorts of hate. but their members aren't out capping people.
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What would be the point of that?
To teach him and others like him that stabbing a living baby in the head with scissors and suckimg its brains out is torture!!!You libs cry and bitch and moan about torture in Gitmo but dont blink an eye when a maniac like Tiller does 1 million times worse!!!
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Funny how bible thumpers like Mimnaugh have no problem wishing horrifying deaths on their fellow men and Americans. Love the hypocrisy. ::)
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Funny how bible thumpers like Mimnaugh have no problem wishing horrifying deaths on their fellow men and Americans. Love the hypocrisy. ::)
Hey jackoff,I hate the Bible,religion,that big Jew in the sky!!Is that good enough for you.I wish after all the abortion doctors were offed,they would start capping Catholic Priests.You dont have a fucking clue of what your talking about.Stick to what and who you know.
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It's already a travesty that you've managed to pass your 85 IQ genes on to the next generation. Poster boy for the forced sterilization of all IQs under 120.
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To teach him and others like him that stabbing a living baby in the head with scissors and suckimg its brains out is torture!!!You libs cry and bitch and moan about torture in Gitmo but dont blink an eye when a maniac like Tiller does 1 million times worse!!!
In your opinion, what will be the effects of this killing as far as the abortion issue?
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In your opinion, what will be the effects of this killing as far as the abortion issue?
It depends on how many motre doctors get blasted.I notice not too mant are performing partial birth abortions as they are scared of the violence.After this m,more will think twice.
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It's already a travesty that you've managed to pass your 85 IQ genes on to the next generation. Poster boy for the forced sterilization of all IQs under 120.
Yeah,your the one that assumes Im a Bible thumper and Im stupid!!By the way,we wont ever have to worry about you having a kid and passing on your brilliant mind,there isnt a women dumb enough or ugly enough to fuck you.
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"Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in the near-extinction of the Russian Orthodox Church: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.
Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."
Alexander N. Yakovlev (2002). A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia. Yale University Press. pp. 165.
http://books.google.com/books?visbn=0300103220&id=ChRk43tVxTwC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&ots=ICIxg28Jud&dq=a+century+of+violence+in+soviet+russia+the+Russian+Orthodox+clergy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=C9k9Hr7Vn222WCHf_1iSJOHVsgo (http://books.google.com/books?visbn=0300103220&id=ChRk43tVxTwC&pg=PA165&lpg=PA165&ots=ICIxg28Jud&dq=a+century+of+violence+in+soviet+russia+the+Russian+Orthodox+clergy&ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=C9k9Hr7Vn222WCHf_1iSJOHVsgo)
Richard Pipes (2001). Communism: A History. Modern Library Chronicles. pp. 66.
Loco... You missed the point entirely.
I already excluded Stalin and Hitler due to it being about power control... They still didn't do it in the "name" of Atheism.
They did it in the name of keeping their control over people.
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Loco... You missed the point entirely.
I already excluded Stalin and Hitler due to it being about power control... They still didn't do it in the "name" of Atheism.
They did it in the name of keeping their control over people.
So what? They used secular ideas such as Nationalism to mind control their peons and get them to carry out the murders for them.
Everything that you blame religion for is pretty much about power and control too, leaders using religion to maintain control and to get other people to carry out their wishes.
That is why you don't see Muslim leaders blowing themselves up. They use Islam to get their Muslim peons to do it for them.
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So what? They used secular ideas such as Nationalism to mind control their peons and get them to carry out the murders for them.
Everything that you blame religion for is pretty much about power and control too, leaders using religion to maintain control and to get other people to carry out their wishes.
That is why you don't see Muslim leaders blowing themselves up. They use Islam to get their Muslim peons to do it for them.
I understand, but I'm not blaming religion for anything and I see what you're saying, but my point is that philosophically, atheism isn't a cause for terrorism, while religion can be.
There's a difference.
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I understand, but I'm not blaming religion for anything and I see what you're saying, but my point is that philosophically, atheism isn't a cause for terrorism, while religion can be.
There's a difference.
"Scientists also often claim that religion rarely inculcates virtue. The history of religion is, after all, the history of bloodshed. (It is a law of nature that scientists must bring up the Crusades within five minutes of mention of religion.) In any case, the argument goes, atheists are as ethical as any believer, and religion needn’t be kept about for purely moral reasons. But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state. It is also worth noting (and Gould doesn’t) that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."
- H. Allen Orr
Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
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"Scientists also often claim that religion rarely inculcates virtue. The history of religion is, after all, the history of bloodshed. (It is a law of nature that scientists must bring up the Crusades within five minutes of mention of religion.) In any case, the argument goes, atheists are as ethical as any believer, and religion needn’t be kept about for purely moral reasons. But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state. It is also worth noting (and Gould doesn’t) that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."
- H. Allen Orr
Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
I disagree... That's just another opinion.
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I disagree... That's just another opinion.
But it is a non-biased, intelligent opinion, as Allen Orr is an evolutionary geneticist and he is not religious.
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But it is a non-biased, intelligent opinion, as Allen Orr is an evolutionary geneticist and he is not religious.
Agreed... That's one guy though and I don't really agree with his statement.
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Agreed... That's one guy though and I don't really agree with his statement.
I really did not expect you to agree with him.
"The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism." - H. Allen Orr
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I really did not expect you to agree with him.
"The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism." - H. Allen Orr
I don't agree with that either... The crusades were FOR religion. Stalin was FOR Stalin, no group or entity... Just a person.
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heres fox news inciting nutjobs to kill
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I don't agree with that either... The crusades were FOR religion. Stalin was FOR Stalin, no group or entity... Just a person.
"But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state." - H. Allen Orr
Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
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"But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state." - H. Allen Orr
Gould on God Can religion and science be happily reconciled? in the Boston Review
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
Perhaps, but what's that got to do with nut jobs today?
Since it's 2009 and no acts of violence in civilized societies are performed due to atheistic beliefs, yet they are performed due to religious beliefs.
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Perhaps, but what's that got to do with nut jobs today?
Since it's 2009 and no acts of violence in civilized societies are performed due to atheistic beliefs, yet they are performed due to religious beliefs.
This is one nut job who murdered only one person. Stalin, an atheist, murdered thousands of religious people only because they were not atheists, and that was only less than 80 years ago.
A murderous nut job is a murderous nut job, with or without religion:
Man kills eight at Finnish school
BBC NEWS
Wednesday, 7 November 2007
At least eight people were killed when an 18-year-old gunman opened fire at a school in Finland Wednesday, according to Finnish police...
...In the rambling text posted on the site, Auvinen said that he is "a cynical existentialist, anti-human humanist, anti-social social-Darwinist, realistic idealist and god-like atheist.
"I am prepared to fight and die for my cause," he wrote. "I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection."...
...Sipila said that Finland, which has a population of about five million, has around two million firearms, although gun laws are tough. "We do not know where he got it from," he said
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7082795.stm
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good job loco, i see that the task set forth before me last night was completed while i was gone...always very nice :)
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This is one nut job who murdered only one person. Stalin, an atheist, murdered thousands of religious people only because they were not atheists, and that was only less than 80 years ago.
A murderous nut job is a murderous nut job, with or without religion:
Man kills eight at Finnish school
BBC NEWS
Wednesday, 7 November 2007
At least eight people were killed when an 18-year-old gunman opened fire at a school in Finland Wednesday, according to Finnish police...
...In the rambling text posted on the site, Auvinen said that he is "a cynical existentialist, anti-human humanist, anti-social social-Darwinist, realistic idealist and god-like atheist.
"I am prepared to fight and die for my cause," he wrote. "I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection."...
...Sipila said that Finland, which has a population of about five million, has around two million firearms, although gun laws are tough. "We do not know where he got it from," he said
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7082795.stm
I never said a nut wasn't a nut... but this guy did not do it to promote atheism.
Do you not understand what I'm saying?
Stalin didn't do it because they weren't Atheists... He did it because they didn't worship his power over their god. Not the same thing.
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good job loco, i see that the task set forth before me last night was completed while i was gone...always very nice :)
Not in the least did he. Shame you guys don't understand what I'm saying... I suppose you never will.
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Looking forward to it.
Personally, if abortion gets switched... I don't see it being the same.
Before abortion, did you hear about churches getting blown up so that abortion could become legal? I don't think so.
I also don't think abortion laws will ever change... The world is changing and with it, the idea that abortion is even an issue anymore is changing.
Iono about that to be perfectly honest...i think that society is beginning to realize that the vast majority of abortions are done so to avoid taking responsible for your actions and not for health reasons. I think sooner or later especially as birth control becomes easier to use and obtain for men and women that abortions will be phased out...seriously we know what causes pregnancy you dont get accidental pregnancy rates over what .01%? This means that these jack asses intentionally had sex knowing that they might concieve a child and did it anyway sooner or later the decision will be overturned...either that or sooner or later men will have the right to not pay child support...
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so your belief is no more or less valid than my belief??
that's pretty much what I've been saying all along
have your belief and apply it to yourself and I'll do the same thing
I won't impose my belief on you and vice versa
see how easy that is?
yes and no ive had this conversation with you more then once straw i actually have some logical basis for my beliefs where as you have never given any for yours...
life could begin when electrical activity starts in the brain as death is technically when electrical activity stops.
Life could begin at conception as this is when the process of life begins...
when do you believe life begins and why?
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Iono about that to be perfectly honest...i think that society is beginning to realize that the vast majority of abortions are done so to avoid taking responsible for your actions and not for health reasons. I think sooner or later especially as birth control becomes easier to use and obtain for men and women that abortions will be phased out...seriously we know what causes pregnancy you dont get accidental pregnancy rates over what .01%? This means that these jack asses intentionally had sex knowing that they might concieve a child and did it anyway sooner or later the decision will be overturned...either that or sooner or later men will have the right to not pay child support...
Therein is the thing... If a guy doesn't have to pay child support, abortions will increase. Guaranteed.
I don't think it will be overturned... It's like women having the right to vote, or black people not having to ride in the back of the bus... As society sees these things as more of a "the way things are", I just don't think the shift will move back.
I mean, anything can always happen of course, but currently, society is moving towards being more OK with abortion than against it.
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good job loco, i see that the task set forth before me last night was completed while i was gone...always very nice :)
;D
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So how do you feel about the US invasion of Iraq?
and what laws did bush break with the us invasion of iraq?
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Therein is the thing... If a guy doesn't have to pay child support, abortions will increase. Guaranteed.
I don't think it will be overturned... It's like women having the right to vote, or black people not having to ride in the back of the bus... As society sees these things as more of a "the way things are", I just don't think the shift will move back.
I mean, anything can always happen of course, but currently, society is moving towards being more OK with abortion than against it.
I definitly see the arguement for that but there is also the theory that the women will know that they will recieve no child support what so ever and be a little more cautious with birth control. In my opinion this would take a while to see but i think after a period of time the number of abortions might actually curtail off...
Actually i think society is moving towards being less ok with abortion if im not mistaken i believe i saw a poll not to long ago ill see if i can dig it up.
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http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/is-public-opinion-changing-on-abortion.html
here you go holmes its pretty clear that the trend is turning toward more pro life then pro choice...
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Not in the least did he. Shame you guys don't understand what I'm saying... I suppose you never will.
Hey, this is what you asked for, and that is what you got:
I haven't seen any... Have you? Please post some if you have and educate me... I'm saying that I have not been privy to any cases where violence was brought upon a religious group simply because that group was religous and the violent people didn't believe in religion.
Have you heard of that?
In the end, atheists like the ones mentioned on this thread have killed millions more in the name of secular ideologies than religious people have killed in the name of their religion. It's a historical fact. I know, it's hard for anti-religion people to accept this.
By the way, here is another one. Jeffrey Dahmer pretty much says that it was his Godless upbringing that made him a serial killer.
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Hey, this is what you asked for, and that is what you got:
In the end, atheists like the ones mentioned on this thread have killed millions more in the name of secular ideologies than religious people have killed in the name of their religion. It's a historical fact. I know, it's hard for anti-religion people to accept this.
By the way, here is another one. Jeffrey Dahmer pretty much says that it was his Godless upbringing that made him a serial killer.
Actually, I had previously placed an exception around Hitler and Stalin, which you didn't notice.
Let's say we go with your premise... So you're saying you found like 4 people who did it because of Godlessness... How many have done it FOR religion?
Your exceptions are proving the rule.
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Actually, I had previously placed an exception around Hitler and Stalin, which you didn't notice.
Let's say we go with your premise... So you're saying you found like 4 people who did it because of Godlessness... How many have done it FOR religion?
Your exceptions are proving the rule.
honestly holmes it seems that loco has given you everything you have asked for even though each time he does you come up with one new requirement after another...hitler and stalin do fit the mold so does the finnish boy...your assertion was that you hadnt heard of any atheist that attack religious ppl to push atheism...loco has proven you wrong.
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honestly holmes it seems that loco has given you everything you have asked for even though each time he does you come up with one new requirement after another...hitler and stalin do fit the mold so does the finnish boy...your assertion was that you hadnt heard of any atheist that attack religious ppl to push atheism...loco has proven you wrong.
You're right... He's shown me one. This Finnish guy... None of the others are pushing Atheism. They're pushing their own monotheism. That's not the same thing.
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You're right... He's shown me one. This Finnish guy... None of the others are pushing Atheism. They're pushing their own monotheism. That's not the same thing.
thats simply your opinion as loco has shown there are ppl who beliefs are opposite of yours...
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I think this commentary is several years old.
Atheism Has Fueled Greatest Mass Murders In World History
By Rev. Louis P. Sheldon
Chairman, Traditional Values Coalition
As we approach Christmas, the one day a year that we set aside to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are hearing noises among intellectuals and rock stars about the “dangers” of Christianity to world peace and cultural tolerance.
The most recent attack on organized religion came from homosexual rock star Sir Elton John, who thinks that organized religion—specifically Christianity—turns people into “hateful lemmings.” According to John, “I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people. Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays.” His solution: “ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it.”
Atheist Richard Dawkins, writing in his new book, “The God Delusion,” claims that many of the world’s conflicts around the world are due to the murderous religious impulses. Columnist Robert Kuttner claims that “The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries.”
Dinesh D’Souza, a Fellow at the Hoover Institution recently pointed out the glaring errors in such statements in the Christian Science Monitor. He noted, for example, that the Spanish Inquisition sentenced to death approximately 10,000 individuals. Some historians claim another 100,000 died in jail.
One of liberalism’s favorite anti-Christian boogeyman is the Salem witch trials. How many actually died as a result of those trials: fewer than 25.
And what of the Crusades? Most Americans probably have a negative view of the Crusades as an attempt by Christians to conquer peaceful Muslims. The opposite is true. British historian Paul Johnson has observed: “The Crusades, far from being an outrageous prototype of Western imperialism, as taught in most schools, were a mere episode in a struggle that lasted 1,400 years, and were one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain ‘occupied territories’ of the Holy Land.” The Crusades were launched to regain land conquered by Muslims and to prevent Muslim armies from invading and conquering any more nations! It was a defensive war against Muslim imperialism.
The Christian-haters should turn their attentions to militant Islam and Atheism as the most serious dangers to the world.
The fact is that while religious wars have been fought for centuries, militant atheism has slaughtered more people than religious zealots ever have. The greatest mass murders in history have been committed not by Christians but by Communists Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung. More than 100 million have died at the hands of these militant atheists since the early 20th century.
And, one of the first genocides committed in the 20th century was by Turkish Muslims against Armenians between 1915 and 1918. An estimated 1.5 million Christian Armenians were killed during that slaughter.
Elton John, Robert Kuttner, Richard Dawkins and others may want to do more fact-checking before they launch into new tirades against Christianity.
The fact is that Christians have been at the forefront of expanding and defending human freedom around the globe ever since the First Century Church was founded. Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States. It has been our Christian compassion that has led us into wars around the world to defend the downtrodden and to preserve freedom for individuals. (Alvin J. Schmidt, Ph.D., clearly explains this in his excellent history book, “How Christianity Changed The World.”)
Elton John’s ability to speak freely and attack Christianity in Britain is due to the fact that Britain has based its laws upon the Ten Commandments and Christian principles about free speech and freedom of conscience. John might not fare so well under Sharia law nor would his music be freely marketed under a Communist dictatorship.
As we celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, all of us should keep these truths in mind.
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2943
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This is one nut job who murdered only one person. Stalin, an atheist, murdered thousands of religious people only because they were not atheists, and that was only less than 80 years ago.
A murderous nut job is a murderous nut job, with or without religion:
Man kills eight at Finnish school
BBC NEWS
Wednesday, 7 November 2007
At least eight people were killed when an 18-year-old gunman opened fire at a school in Finland Wednesday, according to Finnish police...
...In the rambling text posted on the site, Auvinen said that he is "a cynical existentialist, anti-human humanist, anti-social social-Darwinist, realistic idealist and god-like atheist.
"I am prepared to fight and die for my cause," he wrote. "I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection."...
...Sipila said that Finland, which has a population of about five million, has around two million firearms, although gun laws are tough. "We do not know where he got it from," he said
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7082795.stm
That is not so. Stalin didn't kill these people because they weren't atheists, he killed them because they were a powerful entity and therefore a threat. He killed atheist intellectuals, artists and journalists as they were a threat as well. He also killed around 6 million farmers because he wanted their land. Kind of pompous of you to single out a few hundred thousand victims as being somehow "special." He even lifted the ban on the church once the Germans invaded, since he was aware that people fight and die more easily when they have God backing them.
This nutjob you've posted up as an example is worthless. The nutjob in question was off his meds and proclaimed himself "God." He offed people at random, he didn't specifically kill people who didn't belong to his religion.
The example of Jeff Dahmer is silly as well and doesn't prove anything. Murderers always find something to blame once they're in prison. And besides, if the "godlessness" of his household was at fault, how do you explain Stalin, Hitler, or Ted Bundy for that matter. Both Stalin and Hitler grew up immersed in religion, and both considered joining the clergy. Bundy was raised by a member of the clergy. Fail.
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i think this boils down to exactly what i said in the beginning...
a nut job is a nut job and thats all there is to it...
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i think this boils down to exactly what i said in the beginning...
a nut job is a nut job and thats all there is to it...
I agree. A person who commits mass murder or a single premeditated murder is committing an evil act. Neither mainstream religions nor the religion of atheism teaches people to commit evil acts.
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Hi Deedee.
Long time no see.
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I agree. A person who commits mass murder or a single premeditated murder is committing an evil act. Neither mainstream religions nor the religion of atheism teaches people to commit evil acts.
Atheism is not a religion.
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Atheism is not a religion.
Says you. :) I think we beat this one to death on the religion board.
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Says you. :) I think we beat this one to death on the religion board.
lol sure did!
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Says you. :) I think we beat this one to death on the religion board.
You're right... says me.
Kind of like that guy that decided to stand up and say "I'm the son of God."
"Just cause he said so".
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lol sure did!
And we were all right. :)
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You're right... says me.
Kind of like that guy that decided to stand up and say "I'm the son of God."
"Just cause he said so".
Sounds like me beating my chest and proclaiming myself king of the house.
Except I do that when no one is home. :)
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Sounds like me beating my chest and proclaiming myself king of the house.
Except I do that when no one is home. :)
That's what happens when you live with 3 girls.
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That's what happens when you live with 3 girls.
Four (counting the wife).
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And we were all right. :)
It's a religion and not a religion?
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It's a religion and not a religion?
Nah. I mean everyone always maintains their position, even when they're wrong. :D
But now that I think about it, "it's a religion and not a religion" actually makes sense. (Insert man rubbing chin emoticon. Our emoticon's suck! No offense Ron.)
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The shooter apparently has a history of mental illness: "Roeder's brother, David, also said he suffered from mental illness at various times in his life." http://content.usatoday.net/dist/custom/gci/InsidePage.aspx?cId=honoluluadvertiser&sParam=30881501.story
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yes and no ive had this conversation with you more then once straw i actually have some logical basis for my beliefs where as you have never given any for yours...
life could begin when electrical activity starts in the brain as death is technically when electrical activity stops.
Life could begin at conception as this is when the process of life begins...
when do you believe life begins and why?
life begins when you're in my address book
seriously, I don't know exactly when life begins and neither do you.
that doesn't mean I have to adopt your default position
here is my belief
If you're against abortion then don't get one
mind your business and leave other law-abiding citizens alone
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It depends on how many motre doctors get blasted.I notice not too mant are performing partial birth abortions as they are scared of the violence.After this m,more will think twice.
So Billy boy advocates domestic terrorism. Why am I not surprised? Someone needs to keep an eye on this one.
He's revealing himself to be extremely mentaly unstable... threatening violence over mere opinions. :-\
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I think this commentary is several years old.
Atheism Has Fueled Greatest Mass Murders In World History
By Rev. Louis P. Sheldon
Chairman, Traditional Values Coalition
As we approach Christmas, the one day a year that we set aside to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are hearing noises among intellectuals and rock stars about the “dangers” of Christianity to world peace and cultural tolerance.
The most recent attack on organized religion came from homosexual rock star Sir Elton John, who thinks that organized religion—specifically Christianity—turns people into “hateful lemmings.” According to John, “I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people. Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays.” His solution: “ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it.”
Atheist Richard Dawkins, writing in his new book, “The God Delusion,” claims that many of the world’s conflicts around the world are due to the murderous religious impulses. Columnist Robert Kuttner claims that “The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries.”
Dinesh D’Souza, a Fellow at the Hoover Institution recently pointed out the glaring errors in such statements in the Christian Science Monitor. He noted, for example, that the Spanish Inquisition sentenced to death approximately 10,000 individuals. Some historians claim another 100,000 died in jail.
One of liberalism’s favorite anti-Christian boogeyman is the Salem witch trials. How many actually died as a result of those trials: fewer than 25.
And what of the Crusades? Most Americans probably have a negative view of the Crusades as an attempt by Christians to conquer peaceful Muslims. The opposite is true. British historian Paul Johnson has observed: “The Crusades, far from being an outrageous prototype of Western imperialism, as taught in most schools, were a mere episode in a struggle that lasted 1,400 years, and were one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain ‘occupied territories’ of the Holy Land.” The Crusades were launched to regain land conquered by Muslims and to prevent Muslim armies from invading and conquering any more nations! It was a defensive war against Muslim imperialism.
The Christian-haters should turn their attentions to militant Islam and Atheism as the most serious dangers to the world.
The fact is that while religious wars have been fought for centuries, militant atheism has slaughtered more people than religious zealots ever have. The greatest mass murders in history have been committed not by Christians but by Communists Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung. More than 100 million have died at the hands of these militant atheists since the early 20th century.
And, one of the first genocides committed in the 20th century was by Turkish Muslims against Armenians between 1915 and 1918. An estimated 1.5 million Christian Armenians were killed during that slaughter.
Elton John, Robert Kuttner, Richard Dawkins and others may want to do more fact-checking before they launch into new tirades against Christianity.
The fact is that Christians have been at the forefront of expanding and defending human freedom around the globe ever since the First Century Church was founded. Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States. It has been our Christian compassion that has led us into wars around the world to defend the downtrodden and to preserve freedom for individuals. (Alvin J. Schmidt, Ph.D., clearly explains this in his excellent history book, “How Christianity Changed The World.”)
Elton John’s ability to speak freely and attack Christianity in Britain is due to the fact that Britain has based its laws upon the Ten Commandments and Christian principles about free speech and freedom of conscience. John might not fare so well under Sharia law nor would his music be freely marketed under a Communist dictatorship.
As we celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, all of us should keep these truths in mind.
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2943
still as wrong as the day it was written.
Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung were not killing in the name of atheism.
They were dictators wiping out dissidents and perceived enemies
I know religious folk can't understand the distinction so we'll probably see this posted again and again
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seriously, I don't know exactly when life begins and neither do you.
have you ever seen an ultrasound in person? as early as 8 weeks even?
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Life could begin at conception as this is when the process of life begins...
when do you believe life begins and why?
There's life in my toilet bowl, ...that doesn't mean I'm not gonna flush the little fvckers out to sea. :-\
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have you ever seen an ultrasound in person? as early as 8 weeks even?
no
look, if I were in the situation where someone I was involved with was contemplating abortion I wouldn't take the decision lightly at all and I don't know what I would do. It wouldn't even matter what "I" would do because I'll never be pregnant. These issues are personal and if you think life begins at conception then that's your perogative. Neither your nor I have the right to tell anyone how to conduct their life.
We as a human race have very slippery morals concerning "life". We allow people to die daily from simple ailments. We allow our government to kill thousands of people in our name. We allow people on this planet to die of hunger every day. We're talking about fully formed human beings who will experience real and totally unnecessary pain, suffering and ultimately death. Lectures about the sanctity of life or religious supersticion over something we don't even understand don't have much influence on me. You of course are free to believe whatever you want.
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Actually, I had previously placed an exception around Hitler and Stalin, which you didn't notice.
Yeah sure, you asked tonymctones to find you one, just one atheist who has killed religious people, but you conveniently place an exception around non other than Stalin? How convenient!
Let's say we go with your premise... So you're saying you found like 4 people who did it because of Godlessness... How many have done it FOR religion?
Just four? Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are all atheists and they murdered millions. Do you really believe that they did that on their own?
Your exceptions are proving the rule.
What exceptions? It's a historical fact that atheists like the ones mentioned on this thread have killed millions more in the name of secular ideologies than religious people have killed in the name of their religion.
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I think this commentary is several years old.
Atheism Has Fueled Greatest Mass Murders In World History
By Rev. Louis P. Sheldon
Chairman, Traditional Values Coalition
As we approach Christmas, the one day a year that we set aside to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, we are hearing noises among intellectuals and rock stars about the “dangers” of Christianity to world peace and cultural tolerance.
The most recent attack on organized religion came from homosexual rock star Sir Elton John, who thinks that organized religion—specifically Christianity—turns people into “hateful lemmings.” According to John, “I think religion has always tried to turn hatred towards gay people. Religion promotes the hatred and spite against gays.” His solution: “ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it.”
Atheist Richard Dawkins, writing in his new book, “The God Delusion,” claims that many of the world’s conflicts around the world are due to the murderous religious impulses. Columnist Robert Kuttner claims that “The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries.”
Dinesh D’Souza, a Fellow at the Hoover Institution recently pointed out the glaring errors in such statements in the Christian Science Monitor. He noted, for example, that the Spanish Inquisition sentenced to death approximately 10,000 individuals. Some historians claim another 100,000 died in jail.
One of liberalism’s favorite anti-Christian boogeyman is the Salem witch trials. How many actually died as a result of those trials: fewer than 25.
And what of the Crusades? Most Americans probably have a negative view of the Crusades as an attempt by Christians to conquer peaceful Muslims. The opposite is true. British historian Paul Johnson has observed: “The Crusades, far from being an outrageous prototype of Western imperialism, as taught in most schools, were a mere episode in a struggle that lasted 1,400 years, and were one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain ‘occupied territories’ of the Holy Land.” The Crusades were launched to regain land conquered by Muslims and to prevent Muslim armies from invading and conquering any more nations! It was a defensive war against Muslim imperialism.
The Christian-haters should turn their attentions to militant Islam and Atheism as the most serious dangers to the world.
The fact is that while religious wars have been fought for centuries, militant atheism has slaughtered more people than religious zealots ever have. The greatest mass murders in history have been committed not by Christians but by Communists Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung. More than 100 million have died at the hands of these militant atheists since the early 20th century.
And, one of the first genocides committed in the 20th century was by Turkish Muslims against Armenians between 1915 and 1918. An estimated 1.5 million Christian Armenians were killed during that slaughter.
Elton John, Robert Kuttner, Richard Dawkins and others may want to do more fact-checking before they launch into new tirades against Christianity.
The fact is that Christians have been at the forefront of expanding and defending human freedom around the globe ever since the First Century Church was founded. Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States. It has been our Christian compassion that has led us into wars around the world to defend the downtrodden and to preserve freedom for individuals. (Alvin J. Schmidt, Ph.D., clearly explains this in his excellent history book, “How Christianity Changed The World.”)
Elton John’s ability to speak freely and attack Christianity in Britain is due to the fact that Britain has based its laws upon the Ten Commandments and Christian principles about free speech and freedom of conscience. John might not fare so well under Sharia law nor would his music be freely marketed under a Communist dictatorship.
As we celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, all of us should keep these truths in mind.
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2943
Great post, Beach Bum! ;D
I particularly like these:
"The Christian-haters should turn their attentions to militant Islam and Atheism as the most serious dangers to the world."
"Elton John’s ability to speak freely and attack Christianity in Britain is due to the fact that Britain has based its laws upon the Ten Commandments and Christian principles about free speech and freedom of conscience. John might not fare so well under Sharia law nor would his music be freely marketed under a Communist dictatorship."
"Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States"
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life begins when you're in my address book
seriously, I don't know exactly when life begins and neither do you.
that doesn't mean I have to adopt your default position
here is my belief
If you're against abortion then don't get one
mind your business and leave other law-abiding citizens alone
again my stances actually have some logic behind them with your stances which isnt a stance there is no logic so ill go ahead and say mines a little more credible then yours at this moment...you might wanna go ahead and think about it b/c with no real cut off date then whats the difference between abortion and infantcide?
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There's life in my toilet bowl, ...that doesn't mean I'm not gonna flush the little fvckers out to sea. :-\
LOL you have got to be shitting me(no pun intended) comparing a unborn child to shit floating in a toilet ::) ive heard it all from you jag...im disappointed :(
flushing your toilet is never considered a crime either so thats a horrible analogy...murder is a crime and if the child is technically alive at 2 weeks or 6 or 8 isnt that murder?
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So Billy boy advocates domestic terrorism. Why am I not surprised? Someone needs to keep an eye on this one.
He's revealing himself to be extremely mentaly unstable... threatening violence over mere opinions. :-\
Threatening violence over opinions?No,I threaten violence when some punk ass little bitch gets on the internet and spews out personal insults.These same bunch of fags would never ever say a dam thing to my face.I know that you libs think we conservatives are just there to take shit and if we respond WE are the ones that are nuts,sorry,I dont fall into that group.
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That is not so. Stalin didn't kill these people because they weren't atheists, he killed them because they were a powerful entity and therefore a threat. He killed atheist intellectuals, artists and journalists as they were a threat as well. He also killed around 6 million farmers because he wanted their land. Kind of pompous of you to single out a few hundred thousand victims as being somehow "special." He even lifted the ban on the church once the Germans invaded, since he was aware that people fight and die more easily when they have God backing them.
Sure Deedee, first you said that Stalin specifically targeted these "few" hundred thousand religious people just to punish them for his own religious upbringing:
Both Stalin and Hitler grew up with terribly abusive father figures, mixed with religious reinforced corporal punishment and intolerance. Stalin had a physical deformity to top it all off. Hitler probably had sexual deficiencies. You could basically say that both grew up to despise the religious upbringing and sought to punish all those who laid it on them when they were young.
Now you say that Stalin did not target religious people because of their theism, but simply murdered all he saw as a threat, including these "few" hundred thousand religious people. ::)
You just make stuff up as you go.
This nutjob you've posted up as an example is worthless. The nutjob in question was off his meds and proclaimed himself "God." He offed people at random, he didn't specifically kill people who didn't belong to his religion.
First of all, he did not proclaim himself "God." He proclaimed himself a "god-like atheist." Stop your lies.
And what's your point anyway? He was an athesist nut job who murdered many people. Why did you not apply your same logic about this guy to the nut job who murdered this one late term abortion doctor? Pretty dishonest of you.
The example of Jeff Dahmer is silly as well and doesn't prove anything. Murderers always find something to blame once they're in prison. And besides, if the "godlessness" of his household was at fault, how do you explain Stalin, Hitler, or Ted Bundy for that matter. Both Stalin and Hitler grew up immersed in religion, and both considered joining the clergy. Bundy was raised by a member of the clergy. Fail.
No Deedee, you are the one who needs to explain Jeff Dahmer. You said that Stalin killed religious people because of his own religious upbringing. What about Jeff Dahmer then, who had a Godless upbringing? What's your excuse for him?
Besides, what's your point? Stalin and Jeff Dahmer both committed many murders as atheists, not as Christians. Stalin, according to you, was a Christian in his childhood. Yet Stalin did not murder until after he became an atheist. Jeff Dahmer was first an atheist and a serial killer, but then he became a Christian and he killed nobody after that.
Having said all this, my dear Christian-hater, I do not believe that atheism leads to murders, just as I don't believe that Christianity leads to murders. Which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would lead somebody to murder an abortion doctor? None.
A nut job is a nut job, whether theist or atheist.
It is dishonest to pretend that this abortion doctor murderer counts against theism, but that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Finnish nut job and Jeff Dahmer do not count against atheism.
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again my stances actually have some logic behind them with your stances which isnt a stance there is no logic so ill go ahead and say mines a little more credible then yours at this moment...you might wanna go ahead and think about it b/c with no real cut off date then whats the difference between abortion and infantcide?
What is your logic?
You say life begins at conception but that's just an arbitrary judgement on your part. There is nothing at conception that we woudl call life.
I'll pick an arbitrary point and say Life begins at birth or life begins 171 days after the formation of an embryo.
there, now I've picked an arbitrary point just like you have. do you feel better now?
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LOL you have got to be shitting me(no pun intended) comparing a unborn child to shit floating in a toilet ::) ive heard it all from you jag...im disappointed :(
flushing your toilet is never considered a crime either so thats a horrible analogy...murder is a crime and if the child is technically alive at 2 weeks or 6 or 8 isnt that murder?
there is no "child" at 2 weeks or even 6-8 weeks so no it's not murder
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Hi Deedee.
Long time no see.
I could be mistaken, but I too don't remember seeing Deedee on the Politics or Religion boards for a while, except for only the times when she responds to my posts to argue and to insult me. :)
One time she said that she wasn't going to respond to me anymore, but she came right back and responded to my post.
This is my last post. I find this thread childish.
Hahahaha.. once again loco, you’ve sucked me into these useless emotion-laden discussions, even though I said I wouldn’t.
;D
I guess she's obsessed with me, and I am not flattered about it. :(
Deedee is not nice like STella! :)
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You dug up comments of hers from June of last year in response to Hedge?
Wow, I think you may be obsessed too. :D
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What is your logic?
You say life begins at conception but that's just an arbitrary judgement on your part. There is nothing at conception that we woudl call life.
I'll pick an arbitrary point and say Life begins at birth or life begins 171 days after the formation of an embryo.
there, now I've picked an arbitrary point just like you have. do you feel better now?
actually if you go back and read that was only one of the possible dates...and since at conception the process of life has begun yes there is a logical point that can be discussed...
Lets go off the electrical activity though since you seem to want something a tad more tangible...electrical activity in the brain is the determining factor of death so would it not be logical to make that the determining factor of life? again since you really have no position and no basis of logic for your postion ill go ahead again and say mine is more credible...again whats the difference between abortion and infantcide if the date you pick is merely arbitrary such as yours is?
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there is no "child" at 2 weeks or even 6-8 weeks so no it's not murder
so when does a fetus become a living being? you refuse to give me even your theory on this im not asking for a definite answer but till now all youve said is iono...this leaves the door open for infantcide, justifiable homicide etc...dont you understand? if your simply putting an arbitrary date on it i can logically apply a arbitrary date as well lets say 50 yrs ill be over in a bit to abort you ;)
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You dug up comments of hers from June of last year in response to Hedge?
Wow, I think you may be obsessed too. :D
OzmO, there is a SEARCH button at the top of the board. Have you ever used it before? It just takes a few second to type the right key words, then hit Search. That's all. :)
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OzmO, there is a SEARCH button at the top of the board. Have you ever used it before? It just takes a few second to type the right key words, then hit Search. That's all. :)
You dug searched up comments of hers from June of last year in response to Hedge?
Wow, I think you may be obsessed too. :D
fixed.
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fixed.
I do this all the time, and so do other getbiggers. How am I being obsessed for using the Search function to find previous posts, which takes only a few seconds if you know what you are doing? :)
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Yeah sure, you asked tonymctones to find you one, just one atheist who has killed religious people, but you conveniently place an exception around non other than Stalin? How convenient!
Just four? Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are all atheists and they murdered millions. Do you really believe that they did that on their own?
What exceptions? It's a historical fact that atheists like the ones mentioned on this thread have killed millions more in the name of secular ideologies than religious people have killed in the name of their religion.
Again, none of those people did it to promote the atheist agenda... Not a single one.
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there is no "child" at 2 weeks or even 6-8 weeks so no it's not murder
Tiller was doing abortions until the 9th month,hence the term,partial birth abortion.Is that ok?
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Sure Deedee, first you said that Stalin specifically targeted these "few" hundred thousand religious people just to punish them for his own religious upbringing:
Now you say that Stalin did not target religious people because of their theism, but simply murdered all he saw as a threat, including these "few" hundred thousand religious people. ::)
You just make stuff up as you go.
First of all, he did not proclaim himself "God." He proclaimed himself a "god-like atheist." Stop your lies.
And what's your point anyway? He was an athesist nut job who murdered many people. Why did you not apply your same logic about this guy to the nut job who murdered this one late term abortion doctor? Pretty dishonest of you.
No Deedee, you are the one who needs to explain Jeff Dahmer. You said that Stalin killed religious people because of his own religious upbringing. What about Jeff Dahmer then, who had a Godless upbringing? What's your excuse for him?
Besides, what's your point? Stalin and Jeff Dahmer both committed many murders as atheists, not as Christians. Stalin, according to you, was a Christian in his childhood. Yet Stalin did not murder until after he became an atheist. Jeff Dahmer was first an atheist and a serial killer, but then he became a Christian and he killed nobody after that.
Having said all this, my dear Christian-hater, I do not believe that atheism leads to murders, just as I don't believe that Christianity leads to murders. Which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would lead somebody to murder an abortion doctor? None.
A nut job is a nut job, whether theist or atheist.
It is dishonest to pretend that this abortion doctor murderer counts against theism, but that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Finnish nut job and Jeff Dahmer do not count against atheism.
Horse crap. I said Stalin's obtuse view of all in black and white, his authoritarian outlook and sense of himself as the divine arbiter over the lives of others was probably inspired by the pattern of dogmatic religious teachings of his youth. Atheists don't believe anyone is divine or better than another. Historians agree with me, and there's a big difference between that and what you imply I said. You even posted yourself that the Church back then was viewed as a powerful, even secular institution. That's what he destroyed. He didn't give a shit if some filthy, ignorant peasants wanted to say blessings over their borscht and potato latkes. The fact that he lifted the ban on the church once the Germans got there prove it was nothing personal. That's very different from the way the church tortured and murdered heretics in the past, and the way islamic theocracies deal with individuals who don't fall into religious lines today.
The Finnish nutjob killed people at random. For all you know, the victims may have been atheists, and completely agreed with his take on evolution. That has nothing to do with killing "for atheism." You even quoted his word, "god-like.." Atheism does not ascribe qualities to any man as being above another in terms of divine destiny. His ramblings were ridiculous. He was also not taking his meds for depression, an illness which often leads to distorted thinking and paranoia. We don't consider schizophrenics who go on murderous rampages because God or heavenly angels told them to murder "the whores of babylon" or whatever, as killing for religion either. These are mentally ill, delusional people. If you want to count those, the list of murder for religion just grew by the thousands.
Experts say serial killers are born, not made. Their relationships with overbearing mothers and non-existant or distant fathers coupled with an overly-active imagination and excessive fantasizing moves their sociopathy into the murderous range. I'm going with that, thanks. Murderers always seem to find God in prison, and there's no reason to believe many of them are even sincere. Jeff Dahmer no longer killed anyone once he got to prison. You don't say? Amazing. Again. Fail.
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Tiller was doing abortions until the 9th month,hence the term,partial birth abortion.Is that ok?
YES it is in cases of where the mothers life is at risk
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Again, none of those people did it to promote the atheist agenda... Not a single one.
So one anti-abortion man murdered one abortion doctor and suddently this counts against Christianity? But all the atheists mentioned on this board muredered millions of people in the name of their own secular ideologies and it doesn't count against atheism? How convenient, and dishonest! ::)
I personally believe that atheism by itself does not lead to murders, just as I believe that Christianity by itself does not lead to murders.
Can you name anything that Jesus Christ taught by word and by example that would lead anybody to murder an abortion doctor?
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Patients remember Dr. Tiller: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/01/patients-remember-dr-tiller/
A few blog posts and comments from Dr. Tiller’s former patients:
A Heartbreaking Choice:
Up until the moment I sat across the desk from my OB, I held out hope that he would give my son some chance to beat the odds. I couldn’t believe it when he said that there was no chance that he would live very long after he was born. Since I had not even entertained that idea, I was even less prepared for the next thing he had to say, but those words are burned into my memory forever.
“There is no one in Texas who can do this procedure. The only doctor you can go to is in Wichita, Kansas. I talked to him. He seems very nice. Here is his number.” That was it. There was nothing more he could do for us. I could barely stand up when we rode down the elevator.
Even then, I didn’t connect this doctor to the story on the news. It wasn’t until I was on the phone with them, after we went through the procedure, the schedule, the cost, and all the other details that the woman said, “I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the doctor was shot last month.”
If I wasn’t so numb, I may have screamed, but instead it just washed over me. I couldn’t speak. She explained that there would be protesters. She may as well have been saying “blah blah blah blah.” It just didn’t sink in. This was something on the news far away in another state, not something that was part of my life.
A few days later, we were on our way. It rained the whole drive up. I told my husband to turn off the Oldies station because I didn’t want to always associate Oldies with this drive. We checked into our hotel, a chain that I will never, ever stay at again because of the memories it brings back. We drove by the clinic just to make sure we knew where it was. Seeing it at night brought us a false sense of security.
The next morning there were throngs of protesters. They had graphic posters. They yelled at us and aimed a video camera at our car. I was shaking all over as I had to show ID and go through a metal detector before I was admitted. All the time I was thinking, “How can those people be yelling at me? I don’t want to be here. I don’t have a choice. Don’t they understand?”
(Full piece here).
Another Heartbreaking Choice:
The week we spent in Kansas was one of the toughest weeks of my life, one that I will never forget, nor will I choose to forget, but through my tears of sadness, love helped us through.
We returned home just two days ago, and the pain is ever so fresh, and the memories vivid. A piece of me doesn’t want the pain to ever go away because it is one way for me to stay connected to my son. My beautiful, angelic son, Nathan Jack. Seeing him was one of the hardest things I have ever done, not being able to watch him grow up, or call me “Mommy” is something I will always grieve over, but knowing that we protected and saved him from an existence of hospital stays was our responsibility as loving parents.
We are forever grateful to the Women’s Health Center, the amazing doctor and all staff for being our heaven when we were living in hell.
And another:
I was almost 26 weeks. I showed up for my ultrasound by myself. I was scanned for almost 2 hours. This is when my life forever changed. The scan showed that her little brain was severely calcified, parts were not symmetrical and there was fluid. The doctor took me into a room to talk to me. I told her “please just tell me the truth I need to know.” The Doctor said that she had no idea what this meant but that she felt something was terribly wrong. Within two weeks her brain had gone from “normal” to massive problems. I was sent up to Genetics. The counselor told me that the genetic doctor wanted to talk to me. I requested that they wait until my husband got there. The conversation with this doctor was the same, she felt that something was terribly wrong, but they had no idea what it was. “This looks like the tip of the iceberg” we were told.
The hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life was to decide to terminate this pregnancy. This all happened on a Wednesday.
Friday we had to go and talk with some perinatologists. They told us that they had never seen this before and that they could not tell us what the outcome would be. We did not even get a percentage of what her life would be like. They told us that she possibly could die in utero, die shortly after birth, or be a vegetable. They told us that we could wait another two weeks and have another scan and possibly an MRI. How could I go on another day? It killed me to feel her move around inside. This was so awful.
We had another appointment with the doctor that performed the terminations. We were told that with my conditions and the lateness of the pregnancy he did not feel he could give me the care that I required. That’s when we were referred to the Women’s Clinic in Wichita, Kansas.
I was 27 weeks by this point. I was terrified. The moment I met the doctor, all of that ended. He was a wonderful and loving man. I came in on Monday and gave birth to our baby girl on Friday. We were able to hold her after, and say our goodbyes. That doctor will always be in my heart.
This happened two weeks ago and sometimes I feel like this isn’t real. I miss feeling her inside me. I miss singing or talking to her, touching my belly and have her respond. The hardest part now is that I will never get to see her smile or laugh or to watch her grow up A day does not pass that I don’t think of her. I miss her so much.
More Kansas stories here.
A comment here:
I looked at the woman as she cried about the baby she wanted so badly, & looked in horror at the films showing the cancer eating the child alive. The pain this child must be in & the cries of the parents as they don’t want to let go. Then I hear Dr. Tiller say…”You are so amazing…all the pain your baby is in & you are going to selflessly take that away. You are being strong for him. You are giving him peace he will never know.” 2 days later I cleaned & dressed that little boy before the parents viewed him. The ghastly tumor that had grown through his chest & out his spine a horrific parasite, & a stark reminder of the life he could never have. I watched this little angle at peace & I cried. For all of them. And I felt blessed to be a part of such a wonderful man, who could look in the face of utter hopelessness, & give them comfort. That child was taken home & lovingly laid to rest. That day is how I will remember Dr. Tiller. May his family find the peace he gave so openly.
Another at Balloon Juice:
In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.
We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.
And The George Tiller I Knew at Daily Kos.
These are just a handful of stories, but they help to reveal the complexity of what Dr. Tiller did. The mainstream media has cast him as a “controversial late-term abortion provider,” which is technically accurate. But those late-term abortions he provided were for women in desperate and often tragic situations — women with health complications that made pregnancy dangerous, or women whose much-wanted pregnancies took a turn for the worst. Anti-choicers have latched onto the fact that Tiller’s clinic provided funeral services — if that’s the case, they point out, how is it not clear that Dr. Tiller was killing? In fact, those services were part of the healing process for many families who came to Dr. Tiller in one of the darkest moments of their lives, and who were making unthinkably difficult choices. It’s a tragedy that Dr. Tiller was one of only three physicians providing the late-term therapeutic abortion services that he did. It’s shameful that anti-choicers cast him as a “murderer” for helping women in need. I’ll say it again: The responsibility for George Tiller’s death surely falls on the shoulders of the person who actually pulled the trigger. But when pro-life groups did everything but give him a gun, their hands are hardly clean.
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like the good brain washed liberal that you are you bring religion into this...plenty of non religious ppl are against abortion...
what happend to that man is complete shit, that person should be brought to justice. I dont agree with his views or his actions but this was not the solution...
+1
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YES it is in cases of where the mothers life is at risk
Straw Man, it's ridiculous to think that a bunch of guys on a bodybuilding board would have a clue as to the million and one things that can go wrong in a pregnancy. These are guys who think that going on a strict diet for three months is hell and back. But that a pregnancy is an inconvenience.
These are the same guys who say that abortion is murder, but it's "okay" if rape or incest is involved. WTF. If it's murder it's murder. Who cares if your wife got raped. Or if one twin is dying in the womb and sucking the life out of the mother and the other twin. Either you play God or you don't. And if it is truly murder, they should be advocating life in the clink and/or the death penalty for anyone who wants to have an abortion. It's mostly about control of women, not really that it's murder. The OT and the Talmud pretty much indicate that God was alright with abortion and that people only being living once God has given them the breath of life.
In the case of the Tiller murder, the dude who did it obviously felt no control over his own life... his wife left him, and so he projected his own issues onto women assuming responsibility and control over their own lives. I don't think he murdered Tiller for religious reasons. It's far more visceral than that.
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So one anti-abortion man murdered one abortion doctor and suddently this counts against Christianity? But all the atheists mentioned on this board muredered millions of people in the name of their own secular ideologies and it doesn't count against atheism?
Yep... Cause that's the way it is. The atheists weren't pushing atheism, the religious ARE pushing their religion.
How convenient, and dishonest! ::)
Actually, it's quite honest... The convenience is because of religion... I didn't make it so.
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Yep... Cause that's the way it is. The atheists weren't pushing atheism, the religious ARE pushing their religion.
Actually, it's quite honest... The convenience is because of religion... I didn't make it so.
Can you name anything that Jesus Christ taught by word and by example that would lead anybody to murder an abortion doctor?
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ANSWER ME DAMN IT...LOL ;D j/k but plz answer this
actually if you go back and read that was only one of the possible dates...and since at conception the process of life has begun yes there is a logical point that can be discussed...
Lets go off the electrical activity though since you seem to want something a tad more tangible...electrical activity in the brain is the determining factor of death so would it not be logical to make that the determining factor of life? again since you really have no position and no basis of logic for your postion ill go ahead again and say mine is more credible...again whats the difference between abortion and infantcide if the date you pick is merely arbitrary such as yours is?
so when does a fetus become a living being? you refuse to give me even your theory on this im not asking for a definite answer but till now all youve said is iono...this leaves the door open for infantcide, justifiable homicide etc...dont you understand? if your simply putting an arbitrary date on it i can logically apply a arbitrary date as well lets say 50 yrs ill be over in a bit to abort you ;)
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Can you name anything that Jesus Christ taught by word and by example that would lead anybody to murder an abortion doctor?
No blaming Jesus for it at all... I don't even know if the guy existed to be honest (but that's a different thread)
However, people use their religion as an excuse.
I have never blamed Jesus for anyone's ridiculousness, but I can blame the system of religion that promotes hate against others due to differences in beliefs.
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No blaming Jesus for it at all... I don't even know if the guy existed to be honest (but that's a different thread)
However, people use their religion as an excuse.
I have never blamed Jesus for anyone's ridiculousness, but I can blame the system of religion that promotes hate against others due to differences in beliefs.
Whether Jesus Christ existed or not, his life and teachings are clearly recorded in the Bible. So if you are going to blame religion for this one guy murdering an abortion doctor, you have to back it up.
So which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would make anybody want to murder an abortion doctor?
"Pro-life" vs. "Pro-Choice" is a political thing. Why are you blaming religion? This was either political or the guy was just a nut job.
Either way, not all pro-lifers are violent, and not all pro-lifers are religious either.
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ANSWER ME DAMN IT...LOL ;D j/k but plz answer this
Why don't you answer yourself. You say abortion is murder, but it's fine if someone was raped or it was a result of incest. How can that possibly be? Either it's murder or it isn't. Why does it make a difference how the child was conceived?
Then you go on to say that abolishing abortion will make women think twice about opening their legs. That sounds to me more like wanting control women, rather than really being worried about murder.
You also say that alleviating men of their responsibilities to pay for their children is part and parcel of allowing abortion, which is laughable. Back in the wayback days, before abortion was legal, the nineteen fifties, women were basically left on their own if a guy didn't want his child. There were lots of homes for unwed mothers, and the children of such relationships were considered bastards. Less than human. That's what it was like in the good old days. Was there less unprotected sex? Hahahaha.
In our society today, men don't get off just impregnating women and running off, and abortion isn't for everyone. Would the availability of abortion or not change things for Desmond. No. Not in the least. Abolishing abortion would only mean that the rich get it, and the poor die. Or have a bunch of children. Same shit. Different century.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25559154-401,00.html
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Whether Jesus Christ existed or not, his life and teachings are clearly recorded in the Bible. So if you are going to blame religion for this one guy murdering an abortion doctor, you have to back it up.
So which one of Jesus Christ's teachings would make anybody want to murder an abortion doctor?
"Pro-life" vs. "Pro-Choice" is a political thing. Why are you blaming religion? This was either political or the guy was just a nut job.
Either way, not all pro-lifers are violent, and not all pro-lifers are religious either.
I wouldn't say it was religious if the extreme pro-lifers didn't use the religion as their reasoning for why they did it.
They all say that it's God's will... That's their excuse.
I never said all pro-lifers were violent... That's stretching.
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"Christians, for example, were the ones who campaigned against the gladiator games in ancient Rome as well as against the slave trade in Britain and in the United States"
Of course they did! Back then you had one Christian sect smearing young Christian girls in baboon urine, then tossing them into the ring to be raped by baboons and ravaged by other wild animals. One christian sect wiping out another.
As for the Christian protests against the slave trade, get real! There were just as many so called Christians supporting it. That Christians as a whole protested against it on a humanitarian basis is BS. The desire to abolish slavery was purely economical. Britain knew it couldn't compete with the free labour of the US, so they sought to abolish it. Likewise the North was attempting to get economic leverage over the south. Compassionate grounds was the lie they used, ...the real motivation was purely political & economical.
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I do this all the time, and so do other getbiggers. How am I being obsessed for using the Search function to find previous posts, which takes only a few seconds if you know what you are doing? :)
When you go out of your way to respond to someone else's post concerning DeeDee to point out that she's obsessed with you by searching out a post from a year ago is something that suggests obsession. IMO. :)
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I've said it before that religion has been the cause for many wars and death. I think that's incorrect.
Religion is many times used/twisted to justify killing. It's not religion itself in most cases.
That's what happened here.
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When you go out of your way to respond to someone else's post concerning DeeDee to point out that she's obsessed with you by searching out a post from a year ago is something that suggests obsession. IMO. :)
How is it going "out of your way" to use the Search function? It really is fast and easy OzmO. You should try it some time. If you have problems with it, don't give up. Give it time and once you know what you are doing you'll see how helpful, easy and fast it really is.
As for "someone else's post concerning DeeDee", he did not see Deedee post anything for a while until she posted in response to me, arguing with me and insulting me. :)
And that's fine. I was just making a comment, not worth you derailing the thread and obsessing over it.
Do you have a thing for Deedee? Get in line, Deicide has a thing for her too.
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I've said it before that religion has been the cause for many wars and death. I think that's incorrect.
Religion is many times used/twisted to justify killing. It's not religion itself in most cases.
That's what happened here.
I agree OzmO!
But it's also worth mentioning that just about anything can be used/twisted to justify killing. Secular ideologies like Nationalism and Communism have been used to murder millions more than religion ever has.
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You're an idiot! DeeDee doesn't post in over a year, ...and you call her obsessed?! you're twisted! :-\
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How is it going "out of your way" to use the Search function? It really is fast and easy OzmO. You should try it some time. If you have problems with it, don't give up. Give it time and once you know what you are doing you'll see how helpful, easy and fast it really is.
As for "someone else's post concerning DeeDee", he did not see Deedee post anything for a while until she posted in response to me, arguing with me and insulting me. :)
And that's fine. I was just making a comment, not worth you derailing the thread and obsessing over it.
Do you have a thing for Deedee too? Get in line, Deicide has a thing for her too.
HEHEHEH Classic "redirection!"
- Suggesting I'm the one obsessing over it
- Suggesting I'm trying to derail the thread
- Suggesting I have a thing for DeeDee
You searched out a post from June 2008 to respond to someone else's comment to insult her. Suggests obsession to me.
PS: The whole whining about derailing a thread is so old already. Get over it. Stop crying about it. (not saying you are loco but many other people complain about it in a whinny way) Discussions lead in different directions. There's no forum law that says every thing has to be on topic.
Was this post on topic?
I could be mistaken, but I too don't remember seeing Deedee on the Politics or Religion boards for a while, except for only the times when she responds to my posts to argue and to insult me. :)
One time she said that she wasn't going to respond to me anymore, but she came right back and responded to my post.
;D
I guess she's obsessed with me, and I am not flattered about it. :(
Deedee is not nice like STella! :)
No.
But it doesn't bother me that it wasn't.
I agree, Stella is nicest one on the forum!
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You're an idiot! DeeDee doesn't post in over a year, ...and you call her obsessed?! you're twisted! :-\
God bless you too, Jag!
The part about the obsession was only a joke. Lighten up! ::)
You're just mad because I told the truth about your Multi Level Marketing scam. :)
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HEHEHEH Classic "redirection!"
- Suggesting I'm the one obsessing over it
- Suggesting I'm trying to derail the thread
- Suggesting I have a thing for DeeDee
You searched out a post from June 2008 to respond to someone else's comment to insult her. Suggests obsession to me.
PS: The whole whining about derailing a thread is so old already. Get over it. Stop crying about it. (not saying you are loco but many other people complain about it in a whinny way) Discussions lead in different directions. There's no forum law that says every thing has to be on topic.
Was this post on topic?
No.
But it doesn't bother me that it wasn't.
I agree, Stella is nicest one on the forum!
Well, you are the one going on and on and on about this. :-\
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I agree OzmO!
But it's also worth mentioning that just about anything can be used/twisted to justify killing. Secular ideologies like Nationalism and Communism have been used to murder millions more than religion ever has.
I agree that just about anything can be used to justify killing. I don't know yet, for sure that, Secular ideologies have out murdered religion yet.
How could we ever accurately keep track from the point of recorded hsitory? I think in the 20 century, secular ideologies have beaten religion in killing for sure.
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Well, you are the one going on and on and on about this. :-\
It takes two to tango! ;D
You know how you and i go back and forth... :)
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I agree that just about anything can be used to justify killing. I don't know yet, for sure that, Secular ideologies have out murdered religion yet.
How could we ever accurately keep track from the point of recorded hsitory? I think in the 20 century, secular ideologies have beaten religion in killing for sure.
Historically, secular ideologies have out murdered religion, by millions. Whether or not you trust the accuracy of history in general is another story. If there are slight inaccuracies in the numbers, and there probably are since nothing is perfect and nothing is for sure, it would make no difference since the difference is so large.
As for times before recorded history, the human population was not nearly as large back then to match the millions murdered in the name of secular ideologies.
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God bless you too, Jag!
The part about the obsession was only a joke. Lighten up! ::)
it only became a joke when you were called on it and realized what an idiot you looked like even making such an allegation.
You're just mad because I told the truth about your Multi Level Marketing scam. :)
I'm used to haters and those who play victim. they'll always exist when it comes to MLM. Doesn't phase me.
What really irks me about you is that you are the same breed of typical evangelical zealot I so fvcking detest!
I'm sooo sick & tired of you fvckers I could just spit! you're a sick disgusting delusional vermin.
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it only became a joke when you were called on it and realized what an idiot you looked like even making such an allegation.
I'm used to haters and those who play victim. they'll always exist when it comes to MLM. Doesn't phase me.
What really irks me about you is that you are the same breed of typical evangelical zealot I so fvcking detest!
I'm sooo sick & tired of you fvckers I could just spit! you're a sick disgusting delusional vermin.
Meltdown. ;D
Who is the hater now? ;)
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Why don't you answer yourself. You say abortion is murder, but it's fine if someone was raped or it was a result of incest. How can that possibly be? Either it's murder or it isn't. Why does it make a difference how the child was conceived?
Then you go on to say that abolishing abortion will make women think twice about opening their legs. That sounds to me more like wanting control women, rather than really being worried about murder.
You also say that alleviating men of their responsibilities to pay for their children is part and parcel of allowing abortion, which is laughable. Back in the wayback days, before abortion was legal, the nineteen fifties, women were basically left on their own if a guy didn't want his child. There were lots of homes for unwed mothers, and the children of such relationships were considered bastards. Less than human. That's what it was like in the good old days. Was there less unprotected sex? Hahahaha.
In our society today, men don't get off just impregnating women and running off, and abortion isn't for everyone. Would the availability of abortion or not change things for Desmond. No. Not in the least. Abolishing abortion would only mean that the rich get it, and the poor die. Or have a bunch of children. Same shit. Different century.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25559154-401,00.html
that answered absolutely nothing but ill address your ignorance if youd like...first off you seem to have seen my post before but not taken into account all of the post like 240 you spin much of your shit...rape is not consentual that in and of itself makes it a debateable factor, seeing as even if you use birth control there is a .01% chance you might get pregnant you take that chance knowingly so pregnancy from consentual sex cannot be compared to pregnancy from rape. Also I put a qualifier on it which you conviently left out as per the mothers health physical and MENTAL, rape is a very traumatic event and has far reaching consequences especially mental health wise...i already said that if incest is consentual theres really not much to be done about it something again you conviently left out.
NEVER SAID IT WOULD MAKE THEM THINK TWICE ABOUT OPENING THEIR LEGS...again nice spin what i said was that it might make them think twice about using birth control...big difference
LOL actually its a very valid point look up "liberal double standard for abortion" and you will see that it is taught in college level logic classes across the country...maybe you missed that class?
your right in our society men dont have the right to just impregnate a women and walk away but women do have the right to allow that man to impregnate her and for her to walk away, that seem fair to you? your right abortion isnt for everyone birth control is though...
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that answered absolutely nothing but ill address your ignorance if youd like...first off you seem to have seen my post before but not taken into account all of the post like 240 you spin much of your shit...rape is not consentual that in and of itself makes it a debateable factor, seeing as even if you use birth control there is a .01% chance you might get pregnant you take that chance knowingly so pregnancy from consentual sex cannot be compared to pregnancy from rape. Also I put a qualifier on it which you conviently left out as per the mothers health physical and MENTAL, rape is a very traumatic event and has far reaching consequences especially mental health wise...i already said that if incest is consentual theres really not much to be done about it something again you conviently left out.
NEVER SAID IT WOULD MAKE THEM THINK TWICE ABOUT OPENING THEIR LEGS...again nice spin what i said was that it might make them think twice about using birth control...big difference
LOL actually its a very valid point look up "liberal double standard for abortion" and you will see that it is taught in college level logic classes across the country...maybe you missed that class?
your right in our society men dont have the right to just impregnate a women and walk away but women do have the right to allow that man to impregnate her and for her to walk away, that seem fair to you? your right abortion isnt for everyone birth control is though...
Why is it debatable? Murder is murder. First things first. If life begins at conception, why is it okay to murder a woebegotten little infant who was conceived of a violent act as opposed to one not.
Esplain me, how it is different.
Well beyond the shit you spewed about psychological damage. Tiller was helping people with psychological damage apparently, which the fundies didn't like, so please find a better reason. And anyway, the fundies are right. It's murder or not. Quite simple really. Has nothing to do with spin.
What I also find odd is that Beach Bum and other fundies will post endless stories about abortion, but not one ever asking men to take responsibility for their actions. That's pretty much telling as well about the mentality of people who populate this board.
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Why is it debatable? Murder is murder. First things first. If life begins at conception, why is it okay to murder a woebegotten little infant who was conceived of a violent act as opposed to one not.
Esplain me, how it is different.
Well beyond the shit you spewed about psychological damage. Tiller was helping people with psychological damage apparently, which the fundies didn't like, so please find a better reason. And anyway, the fundies are right. It's murder or not. Quite simple really. Has nothing to do with spin.
first thing is first weve never said when life begins which is what i posed to straw which is where you jumped in and didnt answer anything...If youve seen the past post youve referred to then youve also already seen my feelings on rape and abortion maybe its like the other things you either spun or just left out? I agree the fetus is innocent in any case the fact of the matter is that the mother wasnt not a willing participant in the act that led to the conception, and forcing her to carry an infant is like forcing a person to raise a child that doesnt want it. If you consentually partake in a act with full knowledge that that act may lead to pregnancy you should own that responsibility if you get pregnant and not get an abortion. Also i think its very laughable how you down play the psychological devistation that happens when a person is raped, you think those effects would be greater or less if a person was forced to carry a baby of such an act?
the conversation me and straw were having before you jumped in had moved way past tiller and this horrible act commited...so please catch up to us.
when do you believe life begins and why? you do understand that putting an arbitrary number on it leaves the door open to infantcide and justifiable homocide dont you?
you have yet to answer one question of mine only deflect things and pose questions of your own, if youd like to have a conversation instead of talking at me please answer some of my questions.
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I wouldn't say it was religious if the extreme pro-lifers didn't use the religion as their reasoning for why they did it.
They all say that it's God's will... That's their excuse.
I never said all pro-lifers were violent... That's stretching.
Then you should stop saying that this was religious since most religious pro-lifers, to my knowledge, use the same non-religious justifications when making arguments that secular pro-lifers use: "Life begins at conception, therefore abortion is murder", the right to life of the unborn, etc.
Ronald Reagan on abortion
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/reaganabortionquotes.htm
George W. Bush on abortion
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/George_W__Bush_Abortion.htm
U.S. Senator Sam Brownback
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/brownback00-04-08abortionconsciencenation.pdf
Besides, even if a person murdered another person saying "in the name of Jesus Christ", it does not follow that Christianity is bad or that Christianity leads to murders since looking at the teachings of Jesus Christ it is perfectly clear that Christianity is all about the complete opposite, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, etc.
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Historically, secular ideologies have out murdered religion, by millions. Whether or not you trust the accuracy of history in general is another story. If there are slight inaccuracies in the numbers, and there probably are since nothing is perfect and nothing is for sure, it would make no difference since the difference is so large.
As for times before recorded history, the human population was not nearly as large back then to match the millions murdered in the name of secular ideologies.
Possibly so. I haven't seen much posted on both sides other than rhetoric, editorial style articles. They should take it by each century.
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first thing is first weve never said when life begins which is what i posed to straw which is where you jumped in and didnt answer anything...If youve seen the past post youve referred to then youve also already seen my feelings on rape and abortion maybe its like the other things you either spun or just left out? I agree the fetus is innocent in any case the fact of the matter is that the mother wasnt not a willing participant in the act that led to the conception, and forcing her to carry an infant is like forcing a person to raise a child that doesnt want it. If you consentually partake in a act with full knowledge that that act may lead to pregnancy you should own that responsibility if you get pregnant and not get an abortion. Also i think its very laughable how you down play the psychological devistation that happens when a person is raped, you think those effects would be greater or less if a person was forced to carry a baby of such an act?
the conversation me and straw were having before you jumped in had moved way past tiller and this horrible act commited...so please catch up to us.
when do you believe life begins and why? you do understand that putting an arbitrary number on it leaves the door open to infantcide and justifiable homocide dont you?
you have yet to answer one question of mine only deflect things and pose questions of your own, if youd like to have a conversation instead of talking at me please answer some of my questions.
Its not really about you or your flavor of the day conversation with Straw Man. Ethics is simply that. One's ethical outlook transcends conversations on a message board.
it should be quite simple for you to answer. Either abortion is abhorrent as it is murder, or it is not.
An either/or answer will suffice.
NOW that you're being called on it, you're talking about psychological impact? Wasn't that the no-no of all reasoning for all abortions and the idea leading up to the doctor's murder? lol. You one or two guys on getbig slay me.
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More patients of Dr. Tiller.
I truly hope no one on this site has to face the choice that Dr. Tiller's patients had to deal with:
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasstories.html
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Its not really about you or your flavor of the day conversation with Straw Man. Ethics is simply that. One's ethical outlook transcends conversations on a message board.
it should be quite simple for you to answer. Either abortion is abhorrent as it is murder, or it is not.
An either/or answer will suffice.
you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...
I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.
Now please just please answer one of my questions...
when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?
or any of the other questions ive posed to you
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Why I am an abortion doctor
'I can take a woman, in the biggest trouble she has ever experienced in her life, and by performing a five-minute operation, in comfort and dignity, I can give her back her life'
Garson Romalis, © Garson Romalis
Published: Monday, February 04, 2008
(http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.nationalpost.com/most-popular/1659129.bin?size=404x272)
A newspaper headline tells the story outside the Seymour Medical Clinic the day
after Dr. Garson Romalis was stabbed there on Jul. 11, 2000.Lyle Stafford/National Post
What follows are remarks delivered by Canadian abortion doctor Garson Romalis on Jan. 25, at the University of Toronto Law School's Symposium to Mark the 20th Anniversary of R. vs. Morgentaler
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I am honoured to be speaking today, and honored to call Henry Morgentaler my friend.
I have been an abortion provider since 1972. Why do I do abortions, and why do I continue to do abortions, despite two murder attempts?
The first time I started to think about abortion was in 1960, when I was in secondyear medical school. I was assigned the case of a young woman who had died of a septic abortion. She had aborted herself using slippery elm bark.
I had never heard of slippery elm. A buddy and I went down to skid row, and without too much difficulty, purchased some slippery elm bark to use as a visual aid in our presentation. Slippery elm is not sterile, and frequently contains spores of the bacteria that cause gas gangrene. It is called slippery elm because, when it gets wet, it feels slippery. This makes it easier to slide slender pieces through the cervix where they absorb water, expand, dilate the cervix, produce infection and induce abortion. The young woman in our case developed an overwhelming infection. At autopsy she had multiple abscesses throughout her body, in her brain, lungs, liver and abdomen.
I have never forgotten that case.
After I graduated from University of British Columbia medical school in 1962, I went to Chicago, where I served my internship and Ob/Gyn residency at Cook County Hospital. At that time, Cook County had about 3,000 beds, and served a mainly indigent population. If you were really sick, or really poor, or both, Cook County was where you went.
The first month of my internship was spent on Ward 41, the septic obstetrics ward. Yes, it's hard to believe now, but in those days, they had one ward dedicated exclusively to septic complications of pregnancy.
About 90% of the patients were there with complications of septic abortion. The ward had about 40 beds, in addition to extra beds which lined the halls. Each day we admitted between 10-30 septic abortion patients. We had about one death a month, usually from septic shock associated with hemorrhage.
I will never forget the 17-year-old girl lying on a stretcher with 6 feet of small bowel protruding from her vagina. She survived.
I will never forget the jaundiced woman in liver and kidney failure, in septic shock, with very severe anemia, whose life we were unable to save.
Today, in Canada and the U.S., septic shock from illegal abortion is virtually never seen. Like smallpox, it is a "disappeared disease."
I had originally been drawn to obstetrics and gynecology because I loved delivering babies. Abortion was illegal when I trained, so I did not learn how to do abortions in my residency, although I had more than my share of experience looking after illegal abortion complications.
In 1972, a couple of years after the law on abortion was liberalized, I began the practise of obstetrics and gynecology, and joined a three-man group in Vancouver. My practice partners and I believed strongly that a woman should be able to decide for herself if and when to have a baby. We were frequently asked to look after women who needed termination of pregnancy. Although I had done virtually no terminations in my training, I soon learned how. I also learned just how much demand there was for abortion services.
Providing abortion services can be quite stressful. Usually, an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy is the worst trouble the patient has ever been in in her entire life.
I remember one 18-year-old patient who desperately wanted an abortion, but felt she could not confide in her mother, who was a nurse in another Vancouver area hospital. She impressed on me how important it was that her termination remain a secret from her family. In those years, parental consent was required if the patient was less than 19 years old. I obtained the required second opinion from a colleague, and performed an abortion on her.
About two weeks, later I received a phone call from her mother. She asked me directly "Did you do an abortion on my daughter?" Visions of legal suit passed through my mind as I tried to think of how to answer her question. I decided to answer directly and truthfully. I answered with trepidation, "Yes, I did" and started to make mental preparations to call my lawyer. The mother replied: "Thank you, Doctor. Thank God there are people like you around."
Like many of my colleagues, I had been the subject of antiabortion picketing, particularly in the 1980s. I did not like having my office and home picketed, or nails thrown into my driveway, but viewed these picketers as a nuisance, exercising their right of free speech. Being in Canada, I felt I did not have to worry about my physical security.
I had been a medical doctor for 32 years when I was shot at 7:10 a.m., Nov. 8, 1994. For over half my life, I had been providing obstetrical and gynecological care, including abortions. It is still hard for me to understand how someone could think I should be killed for helping women get safe abortions.
I had a very severe gun shot wound to my left thigh. My thigh bone was fractured, large blood vessels severed, and a large amount of my thigh muscles destroyed. I almost died several times from blood loss and multiple other complications. After about two years of physical and emotional rehabilitation, with a great deal of support from my family and the medical community, I was able to resume work on a part-time basis. I was no longer able to deliver babies or perform major gynecological surgery. I had to take security measures, but I continued to work as a gynecologist, including providing abortion services. My life had changed, but my views on choice remained unchanged, and I was continuing to enjoy practicing medicine. I told people that I was shot in the thigh, not in my sense of humour.
Six years after the shooting, on July 11, 2000, shortly after entering the clinic where I had my private office, a young man approached me. There was nothing unusual about his appearance until he suddenly got a vicious look on his face, stabbed me in the left flank area and then ran away.
This could have been a lethal injury, but fortunately no vital organs were seriously involved, and after six days of hospital observation I was able to return home. The physical implications were minor, but the security implications were major. After two murder attempts, all my security advisors concurred that I was at increased risk for another attack.
My family and I had to have some serious discussions about my future. The National Abortion Federation provided me with a very experienced personal security consultant. He moved into our home and lived with us for three days, talked with us, assessed my personality, visited the places that I worked in and gave me security advice. In those three days, he got to know me well. After he finished his evaluation, when I was dropping him off at the airport, his departing words to me were "Gary, you have to go back to work."
About two months after the stabbing, I returned to the practise of medicine, but with added security measures. Since the year 2000, I have restricted my practise exclusively to abortion provision.
These acts of terrorist violence have affected virtually every aspect of my and my family's life. Our lives have changed forever. I must live with security measures that I never dreamed about when I was learning how to deliver babies.
Let me tell you about an abortion patient I looked after recently. She was 18 years old, and 18-19 weeks pregnant. She came from a very strict, religious family. She was an only daughter, and had several brothers. She was East Indian Hindu and her boyfriend was East Indian Muslim, which did not please her parents. She told me if her parents found out she was pregnant she would be disowned and kicked out of the family home. She also told me that her brothers would murder her boyfriend, and I believed her. About an hour after her operation I and my nurse saw her and her boyfriend walking out of the clinic hand in hand, and I said to my nurse, "Look at that. We saved two lives today."
I love my work. I get enormous personal and professional satisfaction out of helping people, and that includes providing safe, comfortable, abortions. The people that I work with are extraordinary, and we all feel that we are doing important work, making a real difference in peoples' lives.
I can take an anxious woman, who is in the biggest trouble she has ever experiences in her life, and by performing a five-minute operation, in comfort and dignity, I can give her back her life.
After an abortion operation, patients frequently say "Thank You Doctor." But abortion is the only operation I know of where they also sometimes say "Thank you for what you do."
I want to tell you one last story that I think epitomizes the satisfaction I get from my privileged work. Some years ago I spoke to a class of University of British Columbia medical students. As I left the classroom, a student followed me out. She said: "Dr. Romalis, you won't remember me, but you did an abortion on me in 1992. I am a secondyear medical student now, and if it weren't for you I wouldn't be here now."
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you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...
I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.
Now please just please answer one of my questions...
when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?or any of the other questions ive posed to you
You keep harping on this perceived inequity that a man can't walk away.
My question is what kind of man would walk away from his own flesh and blood ....regardless of what the mother did.
It seems like you might have some anger toward women
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Then you should stop saying that this was religious since most religious pro-lifers, to my knowledge, use the same non-religious justifications when making arguments that secular pro-lifers use: "Life begins at conception, therefore abortion is murder", the right to life of the unborn, etc.
Ronald Reagan on abortion
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/reaganabortionquotes.htm
George W. Bush on abortion
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/George_W__Bush_Abortion.htm
U.S. Senator Sam Brownback
http://www.priestsforlife.org/government/brownback00-04-08abortionconsciencenation.pdf
Besides, even if a person murdered another person saying "in the name of Jesus Christ", it does not follow that Christianity is bad or that Christianity leads to murders since looking at the teachings of Jesus Christ it is perfectly clear that Christianity is all about the complete opposite, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, etc.
No, because I know that it's their religious beliefs that allow them to believe they are doing what's right by killing another human being. Because they are, as another person in this thread said, "protecting the innocent".
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Why I am an abortion doctor
'I can take a woman, in the biggest trouble she has ever experienced in her life, and by performing a five-minute operation, in comfort and dignity, I can give her back her life'
continuing......"But while she's NOT dead, and her life is NOT in danger, i can KILL an unborn innocent child depriving its right to life."
:(
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You keep harping on this perceived inequity that a man can't walk away.
My question is what kind of man would walk away from his own flesh and blood ....regardless of what the mother did.
It seems like you might have some anger toward women
LOL percieved? hahahahahah you really think its fair for a women to have the right to abortion but the man to not?
Weve had this conversation straw i agree a real man would never walk away from their child that being said A REAL WOMEN WOULD NEVER WALK AWAY FROM THEIR CHILD EITHER regardless of the situation...
I have no anger i find it ignorant that ppl are in favor of a womens right to choose but not a mans and see nothing wrong with it. Todays society with womens issues much like with racial issues has had a backlash of ignorant laws due to past behavior and way of thought...today is supposed to be about equality but i guess only when it suits your agenda huh?
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continuing......"But while she's NOT dead, and her life is NOT in danger, i can KILL an unborn innocent child depriving its right to life."
:(
The absence of safe legal medical abortions put's a woman's life in danger.
Most anyone who has worked in the medical field prior to the 1970's will tell you they don't ever want to go back to the way it was.
If you want to put it in so cut n dry a form, ...then yes. A woman's right to control her body trumps that of a fetus
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LOL percieved? hahahahahah you really think its fair for a women to have the right to abortion but the man to not?
When a man can get pregnant, carry a fetus to term, and undergo labour,
...then yes, I fully expect by then, he will have the right to choose. :)
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The absence of safe legal medical abortions put's a woman's life in danger.
Most anyone who has worked in the medical field prior to the 1970's will tell you they don't ever want to go back to the way it was.
If you want to put it in so cut n dry a form, ...then yes. A woman's right to control her body trumps that of a fetus
when the womens body is in danger, if its simply b/c she doesnt want to own up to her responsibilty then no it doesnt.
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When a man can get pregnant, carry a fetus to term, and undergo labour,
...then yes, I fully expect by then, he will have the right to choose. :)
ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.
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you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...
I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.
Now please just please answer one of my questions...
when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?
or any of the other questions ive posed to you
you could just as easily be a 240 gimmick account you spin others words and leave out pertinent information, never answer questions, and deflect points...
I already agreed with you, abortion is basically murder imho in all cases, that being said i dont think we as ppl should be able to tell a person who had it forced upon them what to do its a horrible decision to have to make i wouldnt wish it upon anyone, when you have consenual sex even if its with birth control you accept the possibility of pregnancy meaning you should own up to your responsibility bc it was not forced upon you.
Now please just please answer one of my questions...
when do you believ life begins and why? this is very pertinent to our conversation.
you think its fair for women to have an abortion but not allow men to walk away? does this sound like equal rights to you?
or any of the other questions ive posed to you
That's easy. I believe, as it is written in the old books, that life begins with breath. Before mother and child are deemed okay, there's a possibility either way that one or both could die, and the already living take preference. I believe that the possibility of life is beyond beautiful when both want it, but that it is a horrific nothingness when it's an unwanted possibility in the early stages. I also know that the only people having late stages abortions are those who would die, or the child is so badly deformed she/he can't survive beyond a few hours or days, or will suffer such a painful death (like tay sacs children) that it isn't humane to make parents go through that.
I also know that pregnancy isn't just a poo-poo thing. A lot can happen, and before modern medicine, even the last twenty years has made a difference.
Anyhow you're asking me this. But mostly abortion came into use because men didn't want to take accept responsibility for their children in the fiftes, those who were the result of such unions were considered bastard children and women couldn't get a loan to save their lives and make a living for their illegitimate children and themselves. So, abortion. Of course there are men who take their responsibilities seriously, and these stores end well. Or with a bunch of fighting about how one manipulated the other, like my family, but so far, none of us have had abortions. All the siblings said we didn't want to be like our parents.
Also, because we aren't a welfare state, you have to take care of the children you birth. So no walking away. Does that work for the poor. No. It works for the rich and the middle class as always.
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ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.
You say that as if during those 18 years the mother isn't doing a thing. :-\
Call me when you get a uterus, ...until then... STFU! Please & Thank You! :)
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ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.
I'm with Tony on his points about responsibility.
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You say that as if during those 18 years the mother isn't doing a thing. :-\
Call me when you get a uterus, ...until then... STFU! Please & Thank You! :)
doesnt matter she choose to do those things during the 18 years the man may not have see the difference?
thats fine but please dont ever bitch about glass ceilings, unequal pay for the same job, unchilvarous men, sexual stereotypes etc...again ignorance fuking ignorance ::)
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When a man can get pregnant, carry a fetus to term, and undergo labour,
...then yes, I fully expect by then, he will have the right to choose. :)
spoken like a man who is not a father. as a father who embraces the responsibility of my child and any life that i do create, i cant help but to be a little offended by that statement. if my wife (and this would NEVER happen) was pregnant and she decided that she didnt want to bother with another baby and wanted to get an abortion you're god damn right i have a say in that. thats OUR baby. not hers. and as a man i have a responsibility to the life that i created. yes she bears the child but it takes both of us to raise the child. you're speaking like a man who has simply accepted the fact that men are not going to accept responsibility for the lives that they create. i dont necessarily disagree with your decision to be pro choice i disagree with the mindset that you have in coming to your decision.
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ignorance just ignorance they carrying of the fetus means little unless the mother health is in danger 9 months gestation doesnt equal to 18 years of child support payment.
No. No one wants to pay for your living progeny. Libs aren't really interested in paying for the endless children repub fools make. And there are plenty of them.
We just kind of realize that stupid is as stupid procreates and there will always be the repub idiots who claim everyone else is glomming off the system when they are right there. They just assume their opinions make them better. Or that it doesn't count because they listen to rush. Or have babies that they give up. But they're just as stupid and living off the country's dime.
Honestly dude, your grammar is getting worse and worse. Go outside before you explode.
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thats OUR baby. not hers. and as a man i have a responsibility to the life that i created.
Unfortunately not... It's hers until it's actually in the world... Then it's "ours".
Until someone has to pay for it, it's not a man's responsibility actually.
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That's easy. I believe, as it is written in the old books, that life begins with breath. Before mother and child are deemed okay, there's a possibility either way that one or both could die, and the already living take preference. I believe that the possibility of life is beyond beautiful when both want it, but that it is a horrific nothingness when it's an unwanted possibility in the early stages. I also know that the only people having late stages abortions are those who would die, or the child is so badly deformed she/he can't survive beyond a few hours or days, or will suffer such a painful death (like tay sacs children) that it isn't humane to make parents go through that.
I also know that pregnancy isn't just a poo-poo thing. A lot can happen, and before modern medicine, even the last twenty years has made a difference.
Anyhow you're asking me this. But mostly abortion came into use because men didn't want to take accept responsibility for their children in the fiftes, those who were the result of such unions were considered bastard children and women couldn't get a loan to save their lives and make a living for their illegitimate children and themselves. So, abortion. Of course there are men who take their responsibilities seriously, and these stores end well. Or with a bunch of fighting about how one manipulated the other, like my family, but so far, none of us have had abortions. All the siblings said we didn't want to be like our parents.
Also, because we aren't a welfare state, you have to take care of the children you birth. So no walking away. Does that work for the poor. No. It works for the rich and the middle class as always.
you have to know dee that many if not most of abortions that take place are not b/c the mothers health is in jeopardy, ive already said if the mothers health is in jeopardy then abortion is a viable option. Abortion may have come about for one reason or another, like straw said what kind of man would walk away from the child regardless of what the women did? well what kind of women would abort a child regardless of what a man did? sorry to hear about your folks you seem like you turned out good...there are ways to prevent pregnancy and these ways are not just for the rich you dont get to run from your responsibilities.
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spoken like a man who is not a father. as a father who embraces the responsibility of my child and any life that i do create, i cant help but to be a little offended by that statement. if my wife (and this would NEVER happen) was pregnant and she decided that she didnt want to bother with another baby and wanted to get an abortion you're god damn right i have a say in that. thats OUR baby. not hers. and as a man i have a responsibility to the life that i created. yes she bears the child but it takes both of us to raise the child. you're speaking like a man who has simply accepted the fact that men are not going to accept responsibility for the lives that they create. i dont necessarily disagree with your decision to be pro choice i disagree with the mindset that you have in coming to your decision.
Actually, ...I think I speak more like a woman (a single woman) than a man, ...but that's irrelevant.
I think the operative word in your comment is WIFE. if you're a married couple, then of course it's a joint decision, ...however, I don't believe that any man has the right to tell any woman, ...especially some stranger what she can or cannot do with her body. btw - when I made my comment, a husband was the furthest thing from my mind. Sorry if i offended you Bear. Anthony, if I offended you, ...I'm glad! :P
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No. No one wants to pay for your living progeny. Libs aren't really interested in paying for the endless children repub fools make. And there are plenty of them.
We just kind of realize that stupid is as stupid procreates and there will always be the repub idiots who claim everyone else is glomming off the system when they are right there. They just assume their opinions make them better. Or that it doesn't count because they listen to rush. Or have babies that they give up. But they're just as stupid and living off the country's dime.
Honestly dude, your grammar is getting worse and worse. Go outside before you explode.
wow like a good delusional liberal you bring politics into an ethics discussion...bravo ::)
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Actually, ...I think I speak more like a woman (a single woman) than a man, ...but that's irrelevant.
I think the operative word in your comment is WIFE. if you're a married couple, then of course it's a joint decision, ...however, I don't believe that any man has the right to tell any woman, ...especially some stranger what she can or cannot do with her body. btw - when I made my comment, a husband was the furthest thing from my mind. Sorry if i offended you Bear. Anthony, if I offended you, ...I'm glad! :P
hahahah now thats not very nice
the situation didnt change from husband and wife to one night stand...the baby was created from both logically marriage shouldnt make a difference in your stance...I know logics not a friend of your stance on this particular issue but lets try and use it. :P
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wow like a good delusional liberal you bring politics into an ethics discussion...bravo ::)
What do you want? I gave you an ethical argument earlier which you couldn't answer. Really, go outside. You have no clue what you're arguing. Billy N. has more ethics than you do.
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hahahah now thats not very nice
the situation didnt change from husband and wife to one night stand...the baby was created from both logically marriage shouldnt make a difference in your stance...I know logics not a friend of your stance on this particular issue but lets try and use it. :P
If you don't see the big difference between a couple that's married and a one night stand, you're the idiot! ::)
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What do you want? I gave you an ethical argument earlier which you couldn't answer. Really, go outside. You have no clue what you're arguing. Billy N. has more ethics than you do.
LOL i havent answered ive answered every question youve asked while you have deflected almost every single question of mine ::)
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What do you want? I gave you an ethical argument earlier which you couldn't answer. Really, go outside. You have no clue what you're arguing. Billy N. has more ethics than you do.
:o :o {LOL} Dayyum! ...and he tells me that I'm not being very nice?! ;D
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If you don't see the big difference between a couple that's married and a one night stand, you're the idiot! ::)
logically what difference does that make on whether the man should have a say or not? again LOGICALLY
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logically what difference does that make on whether the man should have a say or not? again LOGICALLY
did the married man contribute anymore to the conception of the baby then the guy who had a one night stand? no so why does he have a say and not the guy who had the one night stand?
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:o :o {LOL} Dayyum! ...and he tells me that I'm not being very nice?! ;D
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Lol. I bet he would give his life for his children and his wife. He's just like that. And at least he's honest. Also, probably if he were given a bunch of children who couldn't be saved, he would be there for the three days they were alive. Is he nutso? Yes, but people who are fundies do far worse on here in my opinion. The endless abortion threads with no resolve. That's far worse and a function of the fundie mentality. It's all about women for them. At least he takes a stand as a man. And you kind of get that he takes responsibility.
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logically what difference does that make on whether the man should have a say or not? again LOGICALLY
did the married man contribute anymore to the conception of the baby then the guy who had a one night stand? no so why does he have a say and not the guy who had the one night stand?
bump for the logical difference jag?
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Lol. I bet he would give his life for his children and his wife. He's just like that. And at least he's honest. Also, probably if he were given a bunch of children who couldn't be saved, he would be there for the three days they were alive. Is he nutso? Yes, but people who are fundies do far worse on here in my opinion. The endless abortion threads with no resolve. That's far worse and a function of the fundie mentality. It's all about women for them. At least he takes a stand as a man. And you kind of get that he takes responsibility.
is that in reference to me? if so thanks i think but i am certainly no fundie and i thought it was billy M.? or is it N?
what questions of yours have i not answered?
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LOL percieved? hahahahahah you really think its fair for a women to have the right to abortion but the man to not?
Weve had this conversation straw i agree a real man would never walk away from their child that being said A REAL WOMEN WOULD NEVER WALK AWAY FROM THEIR CHILD EITHER regardless of the situation...
I have no anger i find it ignorant that ppl are in favor of a womens right to choose but not a mans and see nothing wrong with it. Todays society with womens issues much like with racial issues has had a backlash of ignorant laws due to past behavior and way of thought...today is supposed to be about equality but i guess only when it suits your agenda huh?
I thought we already agreed that life was not fair
you're perfectly free to see something wrong with it but what do you propose is the "solution". Do you think you should have control over another persons body? If the answer is yes then do you think someone should have control over your body too?
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I thought we already agreed that life was not fair
you're perfectly free to see something wrong with it but what do you propose is the "solution". Do you think you should have control over another persons body? If the answer is yes then do you think someone should have control over your body too?
as soon as that fetus is deemed to be alive its not soley her body and therefore the decision should be taken out of her hands unless its deemed that her health is at risk...This isnt as simple as saying your taking control over someones body we arent running around just grabing random ppl and taking control. When you consentually have sex with the knowledge that you may get pregnant you give up that right as you know that is a possible outcome and you accept that as a possible risk. There are plenty of laws out there that control my body and yours straw right now.
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I thought we already agreed that life was not fair
you're perfectly free to see something wrong with it but what do you propose is the "solution". Do you think you should have control over another persons body? If the answer is yes then do you think someone should have control over your body too?
you think you should have control over another persons finances? or their pay check?
you still havent answered any of my questions straw not a single one, why is that?
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you think you should have control over another persons finances? or their pay check?
you still havent answered any of my questions straw not a single one, why is that?
I think if you're the father of a child you should take responsibility for that child. If you don't do it voluntarily then the court should make you do it. If they don't then the rest of us have to pay for your kid.
what question are you talking about?
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as soon as that fetus is deemed to be alive its not soley her body and therefore the decision should be taken out of her hands unless its deemed that her health is at risk...This isnt as simple as saying your taking control over someones body we arent running around just grabing random ppl and taking control. When you consentually have sex with the knowledge that you may get pregnant you give up that right as you know that is a possible outcome and you accept that as a possible risk. There are plenty of laws out there that control my body and yours straw right now.
let's pretend two people have consensual sex and the woman becomes pregnant.
Neither want a kid and they don't even care that much about each other. Moreover, neither is emotionally or financially able to take care of the kid.
They both agree that she should get an abortion.
What's the problem?
Let's say alter that and say that he wants a kid and she doesn't. Everything else is the same (can't afford it, can't take care of it etc..)
She decides to get an abortion
What's the problem?
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as soon as that fetus is deemed to be alive its not soley her body and therefore the decision should be taken out of her hands unless its deemed that her health is at risk...This isnt as simple as saying your taking control over someones body we arent running around just grabing random ppl and taking control. When you consentually have sex with the knowledge that you may get pregnant you give up that right as you know that is a possible outcome and you accept that as a possible risk. There are plenty of laws out there that control my body and yours straw right now.
God you are an idiot. The fetus is not deemed to be alive. Guess that would be in the womans domain and you should look within yourself, or at least ask Stella. What do you think?
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let's pretend two people have consensual sex and the woman becomes pregnant.
Neither want a kid and they don't even care that much about each other. Moreover, neither is emotionally or financially able to take care of the kid.
They both agree that she should get an abortion.
What's the problem?
Let's say alter that and say that he wants a kid and she doesn't. Everything else is the same (can't afford it, can't take care of it etc..)
She decides to get an abortion
What's the problem?
you do know you're asking someone who has never even kissed a person. :-)
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Straw Man, it's ridiculous to think that a bunch of guys on a bodybuilding board would have a clue as to the million and one things that can go wrong in a pregnancy. These are guys who think that going on a strict diet for three months is hell and back. But that a pregnancy is an inconvenience.
These are the same guys who say that abortion is murder, but it's "okay" if rape or incest is involved. WTF. If it's murder it's murder. Who cares if your wife got raped. Or if one twin is dying in the womb and sucking the life out of the mother and the other twin. Either you play God or you don't. And if it is truly murder, they should be advocating life in the clink and/or the death penalty for anyone who wants to have an abortion. It's mostly about control of women, not really that it's murder. The OT and the Talmud pretty much indicate that God was alright with abortion and that people only being living once God has given them the breath of life.
In the case of the Tiller murder, the dude who did it obviously felt no control over his own life... his wife left him, and so he projected his own issues onto women assuming responsibility and control over their own lives. I don't think he murdered Tiller for religious reasons. It's far more visceral than that.
great assessment of the situation
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I think if you're the father of a child you should take responsibility for that child. If you don't do it voluntarily then the court should make you do it. If they don't then the rest of us have to pay for your kid.
what question are you talking about?
i completely agree with you the only difference is you make an exception for the women and i dont your basically saying its ok for the women to not be responsible but not the man, you agree?
when do you believe life begins and why?
you do understand that an arbitrary date leaves the door open for infantcide and justifiable homicide dont you?
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i completely agree with you the only difference is you make an exception for the women and i dont your basically saying its ok for the women to not be responsible but not the man, you agree?
when do you believe life begins and why?
you do understand that an arbitrary date leaves the door open for infantcide and justifiable homicide dont you?
by "not be responsible" do you mean choose to have an abortion?
I've answered your second question already
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let's pretend two people have consensual sex and the woman becomes pregnant.
Neither want a kid and they don't even care that much about each other. Moreover, neither is emotionally or financially able to take care of the kid.
They both agree that she should get an abortion.
What's the problem?
Let's say alter that and say that he wants a kid and she doesn't. Everything else is the same (can't afford it, can't take care of it etc..)
She decides to get an abortion
What's the problem?
the problem is you killed a child that was created through a consensual act knowing that it might result in pregnancy...if you dont want it or cant afford a child put the child up for adoption its as simple as that, its better that the child get to live and be adopted then to die...i really dont understand how you dont understand the inequality of the law that gives women the right to abort but not men...please dont ever bitch about laws being unfair...
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by "not be responsible" to you mean choose to have an abortion?
I've answered your second question already
yes
really i must have missed it in the back and forth with dee, please reiterate for me
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the problem is you killed a child that was created through a consensual act knowing that it might result in pregnancy...if you dont want it or cant afford a child put the child up for adoption its as simple as that, its better that the child get to live and be adopted then to die...i really dont understand how you dont understand the inequality of the law that gives women the right to abort but not men...please dont ever bitch about laws being unfair...
there was no child
let's pretend this woman had the abortion in the first 6 weeks
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God you are an idiot. The fetus is not deemed to be alive. Guess that would be in the womans domain and you should look within yourself, or at least ask Stella. What do you think?
That my dear is an opinion seeing as no specific date/event has been set to say when the fetus is deemed alive or not...im fine with asking stella
STELLLLAAAAAAAA
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there was no child
let's pretend this woman had the abortion in the first 6 weeks
again since you have never answered the question of when you believe life begins and why your opinion is less credible then mine...electrical activity in the brain being the main determination of death could possibly be the main determination of life...electrical activity in the brain of a fetus supposedly starts within 2-12 weeks or somewhere there abouts ive heard many contradicting views...all im asking for is for you to give me when you believe life begins and why? if its logical at least then you have a foot to stand on all your doing now is going iono when but i still think its ok...well if thats the case then iono when it begins either so ill come abort you right now, get it? ;)
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tony - here is my answer to your question from ~ 3 pages ago:
life begins when you're in my address book
seriously, I don't know exactly when life begins and neither do you.
that doesn't mean I have to adopt your default position
here is my belief
If you're against abortion then don't get one
mind your business and leave other law-abiding citizens alone
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tony - here is my answer to your question from ~ 3 pages ago:
and as ive already pointed out several times since my stance has a logical basis for my belief my belief is indeed more credible then yours...by your definition infantcide is ok, i could kill you now and it would simply be an abortion...you understand the problem of not defining when life begins?...im not by any means saying im right or youre wrong on this issue im simply trying to open up a discussion about it and get others to understand the fallacy of some of their beliefs...if you use false logic to defend this then please dont complain about gays not being able to marry, glass ceilings, unequal pay for same jobs etc...b/c those all have legitimate arguements but if your ok with false logic in this sense then you should be ok with it in others...
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and as ive already pointed out several times since my stance has a logical basis for my belief my belief is indeed more credible then yours...by your definition infantcide is ok, i could kill you now and it would simply be an abortion...you understand the problem of not defining when life begins?...[b]im not by any means saying im right or youre wrong on this issue[/b] im simply trying to open up a discussion about it and get others to understand the fallacy of some of their beliefs...if you use false logic to defend this then please dont complain about gays not being able to marry, glass ceilings, unequal pay for same jobs etc...b/c those all have legitimate arguements but if your ok with false logic in this sense then you should be ok with it in others...
tony - NO I don't understand what your problem is
why must I DECIDE where life begins?
NO you can not kill me now and it would simply be an abortion
I am not a cluster of microscopic cells
I am also not a horribly malformed fetus
.....
how does any sane mind draw these conclusions?
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tony - NO I don't understand what your problem is
why must I DECIDE where life begins?
NO you can not kill me now and it would simply be an abortion
I am not a cluster of microscopic cells
I am also not a horribly malformed fetus
.....
how does any sane mind draw these conclusions?
im not asking you to decide for all of us im simply asking for your opinion?...actually we are all simply made from microscopic cells...If you have no logical reasoning for when life begins then i can apply your false logic and justify infanticide as well...basically what i feel i get from you is that the fetus isnt alive until its born? is that pretty close?
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im not asking you to decide for all of us im simply asking for your opinion?...actually we are all simply made from microscopic cells...If you have no logical reasoning for when life begins then i can apply your false logic and justify infanticide as well...basically what i feel i get from you is that the fetus isnt a child until its born? is that pretty close?
I've already given you my opinion
decide for yourself and mind your own business
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I've already given you my opinion
decide for yourself and mind your own business
LOL ::) i expected more from you straw... :-\
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LOL ::) i expected more from you straw... :-\
what more do you want?
I don't impose on your personal life
what you do is none of my business
if your wife, girlfriend or fuck bunny gets pregnant I don't see how it's my business
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what more do you want?
I don't impose on your personal life
what you do is none of my business
if your wife, girlfriend or fuck bunny gets pregnant I don't see how it's my business
weve already had this arguement...if i go around killing ppl you dont know is that ok, it doesnt effect you and its none of your business?
to which you will reply im effecting other ppl or something like that
to which ill reply when you have an abortion you effect the fetus
to which youll reply the fetus isnt alive
to which ill reply when do you believe life starts and why?
to which youll reply i dont know...logically leaving the door open to a whole host of other possibilities such as infantcide and justifiable homocide.
at any rate man we are going around in circles you refuse to see my pov or even take any of my constructive criticism, im not saying what i believe is right and what you believe is wrong but your beliefs have no logical basis for them which is foolish and on top of that you dont seem to find anything wrong with it...iono what else to say to you
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tony,
can you recognize the difference between a human being and a fetus or something less than a fetus?
yes or no?
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tony,
can you recognize the difference between a human being and a fetus or something less than a fetus?
yes or no
if you can give me a logical difference we can? I can recognize a physical/cognitive difference but neither of those defines life, a difference in whether one is alive or not is a tad bit muddled which is why i have continued to ask you to define you belief a tad bit
How about this what is the one/multiple qualifier/s of life?
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if you can give me a logical difference we can? I can recognize a physical/cognitive difference but neither of those defines life, a difference in whether one is alive or not is a tad bit muddled which is why i have continued to ask you to define you belief a tad bit
How about this what is the one/multiple qualifier/s of life?
a microscopic cluster of cells is not a person
it can't get a job, qualify for a mortgage (ok that's getting harder these days) or even sustain its own life
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a microscopic cluster of cells is not a person
it can't get a job, qualify for a mortgage (ok that's getting harder these days) or even sustain its own life
We are all simply a cluster of cells so what number of cells constitutes a person?
babies themselves cant do any of those things, nor can elderly individuals, mentally handicapped individuals are they subject to abortions as well? you see by your logic you leave the door open to many possibilities...
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We are all simply a cluster of cells so what number of cells constitutes a person?
babies themselves cant do any of those things, nor can elderly individuals, mentally handicapped individuals are they subject to abortions as well? you see by your logic you leave the door open to many possibilities...
once you're alive you get to decide what being "alive" means and when you (by you I mean only you) may die
okay
now what?
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once you're alive you get to decide what being "alive" means and when you (by you I mean only you) may die
okay
now what?
LOL hahahah was that a fuking joke? ;D i hope so and if so i like it
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have you ever seen an ultrasound in person? as early as 8 weeks even?
Good question. Pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth. Even "Tiller the Baby Killer" had to know his procedure was killing babies.
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Good question. Pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth. Even "Tiller the Baby Killer" had to know his procedure was killing babies.
I have... still pro-abortion.
What are you saying?
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Good question. Pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth. Even "Tiller the Baby Killer" had to know his procedure was killing babies.
The term is Pro Choice, and Tiller who you attempt to dehumanize was an obstetrician & gynecologist.
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The term is Pro Choice
Who cares?
Lets call a spade a spade.
I get tired of seeing these two groups be named "pro-life" and "pro-choice".
Choice to do what? Eat shit and then smoke ganja?
Pro-life? There sure are many death penalty supporters in the "pro-life" movement.
It's just political correctness if you ask me. And BULL-SHIT!
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fair enough, ...I just hate the obviously transparent attempts to spin. It's bloody insulting.
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fair enough, ...I just hate the obviously transparent attempts to spin. It's bloody insulting.
::)And yet you post and article about a guy who says:
'I can take a woman, in the biggest trouble she has ever experienced in her life, and by performing a five-minute operation, in comfort and dignity, I can give her back her life'
HAHAHAHAHAHA
That's about the biggest spin on this thread.
And yeah, if abortion was illegal, there would be horror episodes in basements with hangers and or many trips to mexico. I agree. You won't stop abortion by making it illegal and you'll create more problems. But that doesn't change the fact that that article is pure spin and that guy has assisted the murder of innocent babies and teaching women not to have to sleep in the bed they made.
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you have to love the liberals in this country, their man murders everyday and gets paid for it, then someone wacks him, and suddenly it's murder!!!!!
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fair enough, ...I just hate the obviously transparent attempts to spin. It's bloody insulting.
hey jag you never told me the difference between a man who had a one night stand and a husband? why does the husband have a say and the other guy doesnt, did the husband contribute more to the conception of the baby then the guy who had the one night stand?
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Good question. Pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth. Even "Tiller the Baby Killer" had to know his procedure was killing babies.
The problem with the Jesus crowd is that everything is black and white. The don't see nuance. They also expect everyone in the country to join them in their delusion and feel justified to commit violence when we don't.
Here's a few patients of the person you call Tiller the Baby Killer
I hope to that Jesus fella you claim to love so much that you and your wife never have to face any of these situations
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Patients remember Dr. Tiller: http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/01/patients-remember-dr-tiller/
A few blog posts and comments from Dr. Tiller’s former patients:
A Heartbreaking Choice:
Up until the moment I sat across the desk from my OB, I held out hope that he would give my son some chance to beat the odds. I couldn’t believe it when he said that there was no chance that he would live very long after he was born. Since I had not even entertained that idea, I was even less prepared for the next thing he had to say, but those words are burned into my memory forever.
“There is no one in Texas who can do this procedure. The only doctor you can go to is in Wichita, Kansas. I talked to him. He seems very nice. Here is his number.” That was it. There was nothing more he could do for us. I could barely stand up when we rode down the elevator.
Even then, I didn’t connect this doctor to the story on the news. It wasn’t until I was on the phone with them, after we went through the procedure, the schedule, the cost, and all the other details that the woman said, “I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the doctor was shot last month.”
If I wasn’t so numb, I may have screamed, but instead it just washed over me. I couldn’t speak. She explained that there would be protesters. She may as well have been saying “blah blah blah blah.” It just didn’t sink in. This was something on the news far away in another state, not something that was part of my life.
A few days later, we were on our way. It rained the whole drive up. I told my husband to turn off the Oldies station because I didn’t want to always associate Oldies with this drive. We checked into our hotel, a chain that I will never, ever stay at again because of the memories it brings back. We drove by the clinic just to make sure we knew where it was. Seeing it at night brought us a false sense of security.
The next morning there were throngs of protesters. They had graphic posters. They yelled at us and aimed a video camera at our car. I was shaking all over as I had to show ID and go through a metal detector before I was admitted. All the time I was thinking, “How can those people be yelling at me? I don’t want to be here. I don’t have a choice. Don’t they understand?”
(Full piece here).
Another Heartbreaking Choice:
The week we spent in Kansas was one of the toughest weeks of my life, one that I will never forget, nor will I choose to forget, but through my tears of sadness, love helped us through.
We returned home just two days ago, and the pain is ever so fresh, and the memories vivid. A piece of me doesn’t want the pain to ever go away because it is one way for me to stay connected to my son. My beautiful, angelic son, Nathan Jack. Seeing him was one of the hardest things I have ever done, not being able to watch him grow up, or call me “Mommy” is something I will always grieve over, but knowing that we protected and saved him from an existence of hospital stays was our responsibility as loving parents.
We are forever grateful to the Women’s Health Center, the amazing doctor and all staff for being our heaven when we were living in hell.
And another:
I was almost 26 weeks. I showed up for my ultrasound by myself. I was scanned for almost 2 hours. This is when my life forever changed. The scan showed that her little brain was severely calcified, parts were not symmetrical and there was fluid. The doctor took me into a room to talk to me. I told her “please just tell me the truth I need to know.” The Doctor said that she had no idea what this meant but that she felt something was terribly wrong. Within two weeks her brain had gone from “normal” to massive problems. I was sent up to Genetics. The counselor told me that the genetic doctor wanted to talk to me. I requested that they wait until my husband got there. The conversation with this doctor was the same, she felt that something was terribly wrong, but they had no idea what it was. “This looks like the tip of the iceberg” we were told.
The hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life was to decide to terminate this pregnancy. This all happened on a Wednesday.
Friday we had to go and talk with some perinatologists. They told us that they had never seen this before and that they could not tell us what the outcome would be. We did not even get a percentage of what her life would be like. They told us that she possibly could die in utero, die shortly after birth, or be a vegetable. They told us that we could wait another two weeks and have another scan and possibly an MRI. How could I go on another day? It killed me to feel her move around inside. This was so awful.
We had another appointment with the doctor that performed the terminations. We were told that with my conditions and the lateness of the pregnancy he did not feel he could give me the care that I required. That’s when we were referred to the Women’s Clinic in Wichita, Kansas.
I was 27 weeks by this point. I was terrified. The moment I met the doctor, all of that ended. He was a wonderful and loving man. I came in on Monday and gave birth to our baby girl on Friday. We were able to hold her after, and say our goodbyes. That doctor will always be in my heart.
This happened two weeks ago and sometimes I feel like this isn’t real. I miss feeling her inside me. I miss singing or talking to her, touching my belly and have her respond. The hardest part now is that I will never get to see her smile or laugh or to watch her grow up A day does not pass that I don’t think of her. I miss her so much.
More Kansas stories here.
A comment here:
I looked at the woman as she cried about the baby she wanted so badly, & looked in horror at the films showing the cancer eating the child alive. The pain this child must be in & the cries of the parents as they don’t want to let go. Then I hear Dr. Tiller say…”You are so amazing…all the pain your baby is in & you are going to selflessly take that away. You are being strong for him. You are giving him peace he will never know.” 2 days later I cleaned & dressed that little boy before the parents viewed him. The ghastly tumor that had grown through his chest & out his spine a horrific parasite, & a stark reminder of the life he could never have. I watched this little angle at peace & I cried. For all of them. And I felt blessed to be a part of such a wonderful man, who could look in the face of utter hopelessness, & give them comfort. That child was taken home & lovingly laid to rest. That day is how I will remember Dr. Tiller. May his family find the peace he gave so openly.
Another at Balloon Juice:
In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.
We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. I could describe in great detail the procedures and the pain and suffering that everyone is subjected to in these situations. However, that is not the point of the post. We can all imagine that this is not something that we would wish on anyone. The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.
And The George Tiller I Knew at Daily Kos.
These are just a handful of stories, but they help to reveal the complexity of what Dr. Tiller did. The mainstream media has cast him as a “controversial late-term abortion provider,” which is technically accurate. But those late-term abortions he provided were for women in desperate and often tragic situations — women with health complications that made pregnancy dangerous, or women whose much-wanted pregnancies took a turn for the worst. Anti-choicers have latched onto the fact that Tiller’s clinic provided funeral services — if that’s the case, they point out, how is it not clear that Dr. Tiller was killing? In fact, those services were part of the healing process for many families who came to Dr. Tiller in one of the darkest moments of their lives, and who were making unthinkably difficult choices. It’s a tragedy that Dr. Tiller was one of only three physicians providing the late-term therapeutic abortion services that he did. It’s shameful that anti-choicers cast him as a “murderer” for helping women in need. I’ll say it again: The responsibility for George Tiller’s death surely falls on the shoulders of the person who actually pulled the trigger. But when pro-life groups did everything but give him a gun, their hands are hardly clean.
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::)And yet you post and article about a guy who says:
HAHAHAHAHAHA
That's about the biggest spin on this thread.
And yeah, if abortion was illegal, there would be horror episodes in basements with hangers and or many trips to mexico. I agree. You won't stop abortion by making it illegal and you'll create more problems. But that doesn't change the fact that that article is pure spin and that guy has assisted the murder of innocent babies and teaching women not to have to sleep in the bed they made.
I take it you do not consider pregnancy and motherhood to be life altering? :-\
hilarious when you hear guys fearful that impregnating a woman will ruin their life,
...but somehow a woman becoming pregnant doesn't experience the slightest change in hers? ???
Now THAT's spin ::)
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I take it you do not consider pregnancy and motherhood to be life altering? :-\
hilarious when you hear guys fearful that impregnating a woman will ruin their life,
...but somehow a woman becoming pregnant doesn't experience the slightest change in hers? ???
Now THAT's spin ::)
pssst there are ways to prevent pregnancy...pass it on
and nobody is saying it wouldnt change her life what we are saying is own up to your responsibilities...
hey jag you never told me the difference between a man who had a one night stand and a husband? why does the husband have a say and the other guy doesnt, did the husband contribute more to the conception of the baby then the guy who had the one night stand?
you ever plan on answering to this wetspot of a statement you spewed out?
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I take it you do not consider pregnancy and motherhood to be life altering? :-\
hilarious when you hear guys fearful that impregnating a woman will ruin their life,
...but somehow a woman becoming pregnant doesn't experience the slightest change in hers? ???
Now THAT's spin ::)
::)
Life altering as compared to life ending?
Keep spinning spinster-reana
Life is about living with your choices and choosing to have unprotected sex sometimes results in pregnancy and women AND men need to deal with it and not murder a child because they can't handle their life change. GROW THE FUCK UP AND STOP WHINING!
Other then that however, I'm not for making abortion illegal.
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Does anyone here find it ironic that strident evangelical crowd that is against any kind of abortion also tend to believe the following (and would also like to enforce it on the rest of us)
1. Against any form of sex education
2. Against birth control (some dipshits on this board even like to pretend that condoms don't work)
3. Against gays being allowed to adopt
4. Against providing health care of low income kids and adults (think S-CHIP program)
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Does anyone here find it ironic that strident evangelical crowd that is against any kind of abortion also tend to believe the following (and would also like to enforce it on the rest of us)
1. Against any form of sex education
2. Against birth control (some dipshits on this board even like to pretend that condoms don't work)
3. Against gays being allowed to adopt
4. Against providing health care of low income kids and adults (think S-CHIP program)
while the abortion issue as weve been talking about it on the ethics level has nothing to do with religion i agree its ironic...now stay on topic
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Topic police in da house!
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while the abortion issue as weve been talking about it on the ethics level has nothing to do with religion i agree its ironic...now stay on topic
it's all related
a certain part of the discussion may be ethical but it's also largely medical which is something the rabid right seems to be oblivious too.
btw - when did I start taking orders from you?
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it's all related
a certain part of the discussion may be ethical but it's also largely medical which is something the rabid right seems to be oblivious too.
btw - when did I start taking orders from you?
it can be related but the idea that abortion is murder transcends religion so therefor pro life is not a religious stance. Ethics plays a big role in this issue and coincides with the medical aspect as well, you trying to seperate the two is dehumanizing the fetus like others have said.
its no more ironic then the left being pro choice and anti capital punishment...
RIGHT NOW..................... .................. ;) (imagine a deep booming voice when you read that)
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it can be related but the idea that abortion is murder transcends religion so therefor pro life is not a religious stance. Ethics plays a big role in this issue and coincides with the medical aspect as well, you trying to seperate the two is dehumanizing the fetus like others have said.
its no more ironic then the left being pro choice and anti capital punishment...
RIGHT NOW..................... .................. ;) (imagine a deep booming voice when you read that)
I'll try but I usually imagine you sounding like a whiny little girl (jk)
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it can be related but the idea that abortion is murder transcends religion so therefor pro life is not a religious stance. Ethics plays a big role in this issue and coincides with the medical aspect as well, you trying to seperate the two is dehumanizing the fetus like others have said.
its no more ironic then the left being pro choice and anti capital punishment...
RIGHT NOW..................... .................. ;) (imagine a deep booming voice when you read that)
fyi - abortion is not murder
you of course are free to believe it and apply it to your life is but it is not incumbant that anyone share your belief
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fyi - abortion is not murder
you of course are free to believe it and apply it to your life is but it is not incumbant that anyone share your belief
like i told holmes sooner or later im fairly sure that the pendulum as 240 would put it will swing the other way and abortion in the vast majority of cases that it is implemented now will be banned, i trust you will sit there and not bitch about it? public opinion is already starting to shift on the issue as more and more ppl understand that pregnancy is for the most part at least 99.99% preventable so ppl should own up to their actions...
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fyi - abortion is not murder
you of course are free to believe it and apply it to your life is but it is not incumbant that anyone share your belief
and since you cannot give me one logical basis for your belief of when life begins you cant really say that can you?
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like i told holmes sooner or later im fairly sure that the pendulum as 240 would put it will swing the other way and abortion in the vast majority of cases that it is implemented now will be banned, i trust you will sit there and not bitch about it? public opinion is already starting to shift on the issue as more and more ppl understand that pregnancy is for the most part at least 99.99% preventable so ppl should own up to their actions...
if/when that happens there won't be any less abortions - they will just be more difficult to obtain and more dangerous
btw - don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Human progress tends to go foward not backward
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and since you cannot give me one logical basis for your belief of when life begins you cant really say that can you?
how many more times are we going to ride this merri-go-round.
Your claim that life begins at conception is simply a default position. There is no logic behind it.
It's more logical to say life begins at birth than at conception
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while the abortion issue as weve been talking about it on the ethics level has nothing to do with religion i agree its ironic...now stay on topic
the topic of the thread is about a religious nut job that killed a doctor.now stay on topic.
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Topic police in da house!
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if/when that happens there won't be any less abortions - they will just be more difficult to obtain and more dangerous
btw - don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Human progress tends to go foward not backward
just depends i guess as birth control becomes more and more accesible to men and women the use of abortions will shrink to what extent iono...LOL in this case we went backwards...hey if they want to say they allow abortions for population control then fine but please dont use the guise that its b/c a women should be able to say what happens to her own body, thats just ignorant shit when she already decided to have unprotected sex in 99.99% of the cases that resulted in the pregnancy to begin with... ::)
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how many more times are we going to ride this merri-go-round.
Your claim that life begins at conception is simply a default position. There is no logic behind it.
It's more logical to say life begins at birth than at conception
LOL like i stated earlier we can use when electrical activity in the brain to determine life since thats what determines death...you keep saying i believe that life begins at conception when all i ever said is that is an option...iono if you just arent getting it or you are spinning shit?
so your ok with abortions up to the point of birth? so an hour or so before giving birth the baby is still not alive to you?
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LOL like i stated earlier we can use when electrical activity in the brain to determine life since thats what determines death...you keep saying i believe that life begins at conception when all i ever said is that is an option...iono if you just arent getting it or you are spinning shit?
so your ok with abortions up to the point of birth? so an hour or so before giving birth the baby is still not alive to you?
so there is a brain activity in a cluster of a few hundreds cells?
Here's my bottom line. I'm OK with a woman doing anything she wants within the confines of our legal system.
I'm also for minding my own business and not pretending that someone else's life choices somehow involve me.
I'm for you doing the same thing too.
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the topic of the thread is about a religious nut job that killed a doctor.now stay on topic.
:-[
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Does anyone here find it ironic that strident evangelical crowd that is against any kind of abortion also tend to believe the following (and would also like to enforce it on the rest of us)
1. Against any form of sex education
2. Against birth control (some dipshits on this board even like to pretend that condoms don't work)
3. Against gays being allowed to adopt
4. Against providing health care of low income kids and adults (think S-CHIP program)
Really? Evangelicals are not against birth control to my knowledge. The Roman Catholic church is, and they are not Evangelicals.
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so there is a brain activity in a cluster of a few hundreds cells?
Here's my bottom line. I'm OK with a woman doing anything she wants within the confines of our legal system.
I'm also for minding my own business and not pretending that someone else's life choices somehow involve me.
I'm for you doing the same thing too.
yes there is electrical activity in the brain...how are you just grasping this ive used that example for 8 straight pages?
Ok well like i said if/when the law turns the other way then i expect you to not bitch about it and please dont bitch about unequal pay, glass ceilings...maybe we should go back to when women couldnt vote?
just plain stupid bro again can i go kill ppl if you dont know them and it doesnt effect you?
bottom line is it needs to be determined when life begins which is why ive pressed you to say when it is in your opinion this happens which you havent which is why i have been able to logically nullify every example you have given me.
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Really? Evangelicals are not against birth control to my knowledge. The Roman Catholic church is, and they are not Evangelicals.
maybe not all but the abstinence only curriculum tries to teach that birth control doesn't work, is dangerous etc..
even one of our resident knuckleheads on this board likes to pretend that condoms "don't work"
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yes there is electrical activity in the brain...how are you just grasping this ive used that example for 8 straight pages?
maybe you missed this:
so there is a brain activity in a cluster of a few hundreds cells?
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maybe not all but the abstinence only curriculum tries to teach that birth control doesn't work, is dangerous etc..
Going from that to lumping all Evangelicals in the same group of those who oppose birth control is a huge stretch. Evangelicals are not against birth control.
even one of our resident knuckleheads on this board likes to pretend that condoms "don't work"
Is this person Evangelical or Roman Catholic? There is a huge difference. Do you know what an Evangelical is?
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Going from that to lumping all Evangelicals in the same group of those who oppose birth control is a huge stretch. Evangelicals are not against birth control.
glad to hear it
Is this person Evangelical or Roman Catholic? There is a huge difference. Do you know what an Evangelical is?
yes as far as I know
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Life is about living with your choices and choosing to have unprotected sex sometimes results in pregnancy and women AND men need to deal with it and not murder a child because they can't handle their life change. GROW THE FUCK UP AND STOP WHINING!
Not all pregnancies are the result of unprotected sex. And as far as Dr Tiller is concerned, do you really believe a late term abortion is about remedying a broken condom situation or a birth control pill taken at the wrong time of day?
A couple seeking the termination of a pregnancy late term pregnancy do so for medical reasons, ...a point lost on the so-called pro-lifers. You can call it murder if you want, but I will never see a fetus as having more value than a woman's life.
Other then that however, I'm not for making abortion illegal.
At least you still have a few brain cells working. :)
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just depends i guess as birth control becomes more and more accesible to men and women the use of abortions will shrink to what extent iono...LOL in this case we went backwards...hey if they want to say they allow abortions for population control then fine but please dont use the guise that its b/c a women should be able to say what happens to her own body, thats just ignorant shit when she already decided to have unprotected sex in 99.99% of the cases that resulted in the pregnancy to begin with... ::)
By your argument, a smoker diagnosed with lung cancer shouldn't undergo surgery to remove it.
After all, s/he chose to smoke which resulted in a life form growing within them.
i hope you don't use Purell, ...that would be completely hypocritical on your part. :P
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maybe you missed this:
as ive already stated straw electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks ive heard conflicting views...
you didnt answer the question so you feel that abortions are ok up to the point of birth? a baby isnt alive until it is born? theres a logical difference between a baby 10 mins before birth and 10 mins after?
again the bottom line is the point at which life begins needs to be defined logically like ive stated and pushed you and others to define for yourself im not saying my logic is right as compared to others but it is sound logic as compared to yours which is full of false logic which again is why i have been able to logically nullify any example you have given me...
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By your argument, a smoker diagnosed with lung cancer shouldn't undergo surgery to remove it.
After all, s/he chose to smoke which resulted in a life form growing within them.
i hope you don't use Purell, ...that would be completely hypocritical on your part. :P
LOL not at all a smoker undergoing surgery only effects HIM...a women getting an abortion effects another living being... ::)
a tumor is hardly compareable to a fetus...electrical brain activity, cognitive ability, potential life etc...nice try though again USE LOGIC
you ever gonna stand up for that ignorant statement you made about a husband having a say and a guy who had a one night stand not?
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as ive already stated straw electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks ive heard conflicting views...
you didnt answer the question so you feel that abortions are ok up to the point of birth? a baby isnt alive until it is born? theres a logical difference between a baby 10 mins before birth and 10 mins after?
again the bottom line is the point at which life begins needs to be defined logically like ive stated and pushed you and others to define for yourself im not saying my logic is right as compared to others but it is sound logic as compared to yours which is full of false logic which again is why i have been able to logically nullify any example you have given me...
electrical activity is "thought" to start anywhere from 2-12 weeks? Thought by whom?
is there a "brain" @ 2 weeks?
I've already given you my point of view on abortion. Here is it yet again.
Here's my bottom line. I'm OK with a woman doing anything she wants within the confines of our legal system.
I'm also for minding my own business and not pretending that someone else's life choices somehow involve me.
I'm for you doing the same thing too.
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electrical activity is "thought" to start anywhere from 2-12 weeks? Thought by whom?
is there a "brain" @ 2 weeks?
I've already given you my point of view on abortion. Here is it yet again.
ill let you do some research on it, its pretty apparent that you never really have in any serious fashion and your beliefs are soley opinion based...when i get home tonight if you still want some or havent found any ill see if i can look some up for you
again your belief is chalked full of false logic which opens the door to many other possibilities which you are against but are ok with using that logic in this sense.
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ill let you do some research on it, its pretty apparent that you never really have in any serious fashion and your beliefs are soley opinion based...when i get home tonight if you still want some or havent found any ill see if i can look some up for you
again your belief is chalked full of false logic which opens the door to many other possibilities which you are against but are ok with using that logic in this sense.
my beliefs?
You're the one who wrote "electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks"
again - thought by whom? Why should I care what "they" think.
is there a brain @ 2 weeks?
I've told you repeatedly that I'm for women doing whatever they choose within our legal system and I'm for me and you minding our own business and not pretending that someone elses personal health issues involve us. What is it about that simple statement that you can't understand?
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my beliefs?
You're the one who wrote "electrical activity in the brain is thought to start anywhere from 2 weeks to 12 weeks"
again - thought by whom? Why should I care what "they" think.
is there a brain @ 2 weeks?
I've told you repeatedly that I'm for women doing whatever they choose within our legal system and I'm for me and you minding our own business and not pretending that someone elses personal health issues involve us. What is it about that simple statement that you can't understand?
again you can do some research if you dont want to or dont have the time i guess youll have to wait until i find the time there are conflicting views as to when electrical activity starts in the brain from everybody medical doctors more importantly...you should care b/c its relevant to this conversation as it could determine when life begins and as we know unjustified termination of life is MURDER...
yes your beliefs that you dont know when life begins, or it begins when they are in your contacts book, or when they can get a mortgage, sustain their own life, etc...these beliefs logically leave the door open to multiple actions which you are against but you are ok with applying that logic on this issue and not on others....LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD thats why its logical...
LOL b/c they arent simply her health issues when she is pregnant they involve 2 living beings what part of that dont you understand?
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LOL not at all a smoker undergoing surgery only effects HIM...a women getting an abortion effects another living being... ::)
No, a smoker undergoing surgery affects (spelled with an 'A') notonly himself, but also the cancerous tumor which is a living thing. a living thing with the potential to harm it's host if not excised. Much like the parasite that is the fetus.
a tumor is hardly compareable to a fetus...electrical brain activity, cognitive ability, potential life etc...nice try though again USE LOGIC
Are you saying there is no electrical activity within the cells of cancerous tumors?
you ever gonna stand up for that ignorant statement you made about a husband having a say and a guy who had a one night stand not?
I thought it was too obvious to have to pont out, ...even to you.
The difference is, in the case of a husband, you have a legal entity that has become one.
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again you can do some research if you dont want to or dont have the time i guess youll have to wait until i find the time there are conflicting views as to when electrical activity starts in the brain from everybody medical doctors more importantly...you should care b/c its relevant to this conversation as it could determine when life begins and as we know unjustified termination of life is MURDER...
yes your beliefs that you dont know when life begins, or it begins when they are in your contacts book, or when they can get a mortgage, sustain their own life, etc...these beliefs logically leave the door open to multiple actions which you are against but you are ok with applying that logic on this issue and not on others....LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD thats why its logical...
LOL b/c they arent simply her health issues when she is pregnant they involve 2 living beings what part of that dont you understand?
is there a brain @ 2 weeks?
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No, a smoker undergoing surgery affects (spelled with an 'A') notonly himself, but also the cancerous tumor which is a living thing. a living thing with the potential to harm it's host if not excised. Much like the parasite that is the fetus.
Are you saying there is no electrical activity within the cells of cancerous tumors?
I thought it was too obvious to have to pont out, ...even to you.
The difference is, in the case of a husband, you have a legal entity that has become one.
LOL man you guys really need to go take a basic level college logic class b/c your logic is freaking horrible...
as stated earlier if the mothers health is at risk then abortion is a viable option
i said electrical activity in the BRAINNNNNN when did tumors develop brains, way to not address any other of my points
the husband has legal entity in marriage he is no more legally the father of the unborn fetus then the man who had a one night stand jag...again USE LOGIC your reasoning if false...
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according to Wiki: Brain activity begins at approximately 25 weeks of gestation, shortly before the beginning of the third trimester.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_does_a_fetus_have_brain_activity
who are the people you're talking about who think there is a brain @ 2 weeks?
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is there a brain @ 2 weeks?
the development of the brain begins around 2 or 3 weeks again conflicting views...you will undoubtedly say that its not a fully developed brain so it doesnt count logically leaving the door open to infantcide as well as justifiable homocide as infants brains arent developed and the brain itself never stops developing...again do some research straw and base your belief off facts instead of simply opinion or you will be made to look like a fool everytime you discuss this topic with someone who has.
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according to Wiki: Brain activity begins at approximately 25 weeks of gestation, shortly before the beginning of the third trimester.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_does_a_fetus_have_brain_activity
who are the people you're talking about who think there is a brain @ 2 weeks?
LOL first of all that doesnt say who its from
2nd it doesnt define brain activity...
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you're just passing along false pro-life talking points.
Who'da Thunk it?
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The assertion is made over and over again that "fetal brain activity" has been observed or "fetal brain waves" have been measured at 40, 43, or 45 days, or at 6 weeks after fertilization. You can find the claim in "pro-life" and sometimes even nonmedical pro-choice literature. Sometimes a reference is cited, but most often not. This false information has passed into the general understanding about fetal development and is simply stated as fact. It is however a factoid instead, which is the name for a statement repeated often enough that people accept it as truth, though it's not.
Sykes digs through the generations of pamphlets citing other pamphlets to find the original science on which the factoid is based, and comes up with a cite from a 1964 AMA convention speech transcript (not a research paper at all) published in the JAMA arguing for brain function rather than heart function to determine cessation of life, and a 1982 letter (not a peer-reviewed paper) published in the NEJM. As Sykes says, "no original research is being described here, which makes it dishonest and misleading to quote it as the source of a claim".
The quotes used by 'pro-lifers', when laid out in formal cite form, certainly do look impressive to anyone not in the habit or reading the original paper to evaluate a scientist's conclusions:
At only 40 days after fertilization electrical waves as measured by the EEG can be recorded from the baby's brain, indicating brain functioning47, 48.
47. Hamlin, H. (1964), "Life or Death by EEG," Journal of the American Medical Association, October 12, 113.
Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception.
J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
Sykes dissects the misuse of these citations (both should strictly mention the status as convention proceedings/letters rather than research papers), showing that both of these opinion pieces incorrectly summarise science that is now either discredited or obsolete (and always refers to "electrical activity" rather than "brain waves"), then goes on to detail what medical science actually does show about the development of a functioning human brain:
When people, including physicians, talk about "brain waves" and "brain activity" they are referring to organized activity in the cortex. While no embryo or fetus has ever been found to have "brain waves," extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies. A very good summary of their findings can be found in Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus," a review article (often cited by "pro-lifers" writing about fetal pain, but not about brain development) by K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM:
"Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks."
here's the link where you can find all the references: http://tigtogblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/fetal-brain-development-myths-and.html
please do us all a favor and stop passing along lies. If you want to believe them that's your perogative but please spare the rest of us.
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you're just passing along false pro-life talking points.
Who'da Thunk it?
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The assertion is made over and over again that "fetal brain activity" has been observed or "fetal brain waves" have been measured at 40, 43, or 45 days, or at 6 weeks after fertilization. You can find the claim in "pro-life" and sometimes even nonmedical pro-choice literature. Sometimes a reference is cited, but most often not. This false information has passed into the general understanding about fetal development and is simply stated as fact. It is however a factoid instead, which is the name for a statement repeated often enough that people accept it as truth, though it's not.
Sykes digs through the generations of pamphlets citing other pamphlets to find the original science on which the factoid is based, and comes up with a cite from a 1964 AMA convention speech transcript (not a research paper at all) published in the JAMA arguing for brain function rather than heart function to determine cessation of life, and a 1982 letter (not a peer-reviewed paper) published in the NEJM. As Sykes says, "no original research is being described here, which makes it dishonest and misleading to quote it as the source of a claim".
The quotes used by 'pro-lifers', when laid out in formal cite form, certainly do look impressive to anyone not in the habit or reading the original paper to evaluate a scientist's conclusions:
At only 40 days after fertilization electrical waves as measured by the EEG can be recorded from the baby's brain, indicating brain functioning47, 48.
47. Hamlin, H. (1964), "Life or Death by EEG," Journal of the American Medical Association, October 12, 113.
Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception.
J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
Sykes dissects the misuse of these citations (both should strictly mention the status as convention proceedings/letters rather than research papers), showing that both of these opinion pieces incorrectly summarise science that is now either discredited or obsolete (and always refers to "electrical activity" rather than "brain waves"), then goes on to detail what medical science actually does show about the development of a functioning human brain:
When people, including physicians, talk about "brain waves" and "brain activity" they are referring to organized activity in the cortex. While no embryo or fetus has ever been found to have "brain waves," extensive EEG studies have been done on premature babies. A very good summary of their findings can be found in Pain and its effects in the human neonate and fetus," a review article (often cited by "pro-lifers" writing about fetal pain, but not about brain development) by K.J.S. Anand, a leading researcher on pain in newborns, and P.R. Hickey, published in NEJM:
"Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks."
not at all like i said conflicting view...ill read this and like i said post some shit when i get a chance...if you want to use that as a reasoning for your stance straw then i support your stance i may not believe in it but at least you have some logical basis for believing that abortions befor 20-27 weeks are ok...YOU UNDERSTAND like i said im not saying im right and your wrong all i was saying is that your previous views where not logical... ;D i hope youve finally come to understand
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LOL man you guys really need to go take a basic level college logic class b/c your logic is freaking horrible...
as stated earlier if the mothers health is at risk then abortion is a viable option
i said electrical activity in the BRAINNNNNN when did tumors develop brains, way to not address any other of my points
I don't know, ...I'm sure we'll all have the answer to that as soon as you post something half sensible. ;D
the husband has legal entity in marriage he is no more legally the father of the unborn fetus then the man who had a one night stand jag...again USE LOGIC your reasoning if false...
ummm, ...that's where you're wrong. A husband, under the law is automatically deemed to be the father,
...unless proof is furnished that shows otherwise, ...and then sometimes not even then. :-\
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I don't know, ...I'm sure we'll all have the answer to that as soon as you post something half sensible. ;D
ummm, ...that's where you're wrong. A husband, under the law is automatically deemed to be the father,
...unless proof is furnished that shows otherwise, ...and then sometimes not even then. :-\
so what? the fathers opinion doesnt matter? being automatically ASSumed to be the father doesnt make him any less responsible for the conception of that child then a person who had a one night stand...your logic is horrible jag
you state that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her body but then make an exception if shes married? as far as i know its still her body...again LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD THATS WHY ITS LOGICAL :o goodness gracious you are using your logic to apply to one situation but not another CREATING FALSE LOGIC
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not at all like i said conflicting view...ill read this and like i said post some shit when i get a chance...if you want to use that as a reasoning for your stance straw then i support your stance i may not believe in it but at least you have some logical basis for believing that abortions befor 20-27 weeks are ok...YOU UNDERSTAND like i said im not saying im right and your wrong all i was saying is that your previous views where not logical... ;D i hope youve finally come to understand
try reading it first
any conflict you find in your view (or the views of your un-named sources) will be with reality.
like i've said how many times now (4 I think) my view is that women should be free to do whatever is legal and you and I should mind our own business
my logic was based on what is legal. My other comments to you were half jokes (i.e. you're not alive until you're in my address book, etc..)
when you find that your point of view is based on bad science I hope you will do the right thing and concede you were wrong or at the very least stop passing along false information. You can still believe whatever you want by stop passing around false talking points
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so what? the fathers opinion doesnt matter? being automatically ASSumed to be the father doesnt make him any less responsible for the conception of that child then a person who had a one night stand...your logic is horrible jag
Do you simply argue just for the sake of being argumentative?
Reread your statement.
you state that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her body but then make an exception if shes married? as far as i know its still her body...again LOGIC IS APPLIED ACROSS THE BOARD THATS WHY ITS LOGICAL :o goodness gracious you are using your logic to apply to one situation but not another CREATING FALSE LOGIC
I'm of the opinion that married folks should make decisions jointly.
Therefore, I'd give a husband more input into decision making processes than a one night stand.
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try reading it first
any conflict you find in your view (or the views of your un-named sources) will be with reality.
like i've said how many times now (4 I think) my view is that women should be free to do whatever is legal and you and I should mind our own business
my logic was based on what is legal. My other comments to you were half jokes (i.e. you're not alive until you're in my address book, etc..)
when you find that your point of view is based on bad science I hope you will do the right thing and admit concede you were wrong or at the very least stop passing along false information. You can still believe whatever you want by stop passing around false talking points
LOL ill find some straw dont worry
your logic on the legal aspect is pretty sound but as i pointed out i dont want to hear you bitch about it if its overturned or anything else that you disagree with thats legal, b/c according to your logic legality makes it right...
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Do you simply argue just for the sake of being argumentative?
Reread your statement.
I'm of the opinion that married folks should make decisions jointly.
Therefore, I'd give a husband more input into decision making processes than a one night stand.
i argue b/c your logic is horrible
i can understand that but your logic for supporting an abortion is that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her own body correct?
getting married doesnt equate to ownership of her body or does it? i understand what your saying but by your logic for abortion the husband has no more say as the guy who had a one night stand...revise your logic
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getting married doesnt equate to ownership of her body or does it? i understand what your saying but by your logic for abortion the husband has no more say as the guy who had a one night stand...revise your logic
I wish, then I could have beat her ass when she got out of line.
;D
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I wish, then I could have beat her ass when she got out of line.
;D
hahahahhaha lol ok im ok with abortion if i can back hand her at will...
just j/k jag ;)
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I have... still pro-abortion.
What are you saying?
That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."
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That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."
Seems like a poor generalization.
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LOL ill find some straw dont worry
your logic on the legal aspect is pretty sound but as i pointed out i dont want to hear you bitch about it if its overturned or anything else that you disagree with thats legal, b/c according to your logic legality makes it right...
I'll retain my right to free speech just like you will
btw - I have no problem with the pro-life point of view as long as they apply it only to themselves.
I do have a problem with using bad science and out right lies (not you per se but the prolife movement) and I absolutely have a problem with the intimidation tactics outside womens health clinic and of course any type of violence
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That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."
there is no group that calls themselves PRO abortion
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So I've been reading about the late "Tiller the Baby Killer." Gruesome stuff. Keep in mind his practice was focused on killing third trimester babies. I think reasonable people, particularly those who have been involved with pregnancies through birth, have no trouble concluding that a third trimester baby is actually a "baby" and not just some mass of cells.
Here is a description of the process he used:
Tiller has developed a late-term abortion method that he calls MOLD. MOLD is an abbreviation of the components used in the abortion: Misoprostol, Oxytocin, Laminaria, and Digoxin. Tiller claims this method duplicates "normal, safe, natural miscarriage".
On the first day of the process, Tiller kills the baby by injecting a drug called Digoxin into its heart. Tiller guides a long needle through the mother's abdomen into the baby's beating heart.
Tiller claims the baby feels no pain, but he doesn't explain how the heart drug Digoxin can accomplish this.
Also on the first day, Tiller inserts laminaria into the woman's cervix.
Laminaria are thin sticks of seaweed material that absorb moisture and expand. The process dilates (opens) the cervix for the abortion. Tiller will replace the laminaria each day using more sticks each time. This process can take several days.
Several women who have told their abortion stories say the laminaria is very painful. Some say they still experience pain years after their abortions. "Jeanne"said, "I have permanent cervical scarring from the laminaria that will cause me pain the rest of my life." "Jessica" said, "I have had nothing but problems with my female parts. I have had cervical dysplasia, which is bad cells in your cervix that require many painful treatments." "LaDonna" described the pain as Tiller and his staff inserted the laminaria, "I had this horrible pain in my cervix that to this day I can't explain (to this day I still experience that pain from time to time)."
After the baby is dead and the cervix is fully dilated, Tiller delivers the dead baby while the mother is under twilight anesthesia. He uses Versed and Nubain for anesthesia. Misoprostol and Oxytocin are used to induce labor. Misoprostol (Cytotec) is an ulcer medication that is not labeled for use in abortions. Tiller uses this medication "off label."
Up to ten women at a time will be in a communal "labor and delivery" area with only a curtain to separate them.
The whole process takes several days... usually starting on a Tuesday and ending on a Thursday or a Friday. During this time, the mother often stays at a motel. In a video he made, Tiller admits that sometimes a dead baby is born at the motel . . . .
http://www.dr-tiller.com/methods.htm
Also, this man was accused of performing third trimester abortions because of things like "depression."
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Seems like a poor generalization.
O.K. That's your opinion.
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That "pro abortion folks typically try and dehumanize the baby, which is much easier if they haven't actually been involved with the development of a child from conception through birth."
Not having actually been involved with the development of a fetus from conception through birth, hasn't stopped the "pro-lifers" from dictating what a stranger can and cannot do with their body. From what I gather, ...they also won't be involved after the birth either. But dammit, they'll tell a woman what to do :-\
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Here are comments from a woman who had a baby killed by Tiller when she was seven months pregnant. Says she was raped. Not sure why she waited so long for the abortion. :-\
I was referred to tiller's clinic by another abortion clinic, because I was too far along or them to perform an abortion for me. That was the hardest week of my entire life.
My father and I arrived in Wichita on a Sunday morning and Tiller had us come into the clinic that afternoon to fill out the paperwork and so he could get the waiting period out of the way. On that day, I had my one-on-one consultation with him, and I explained to him that I has been raped, and I didn't feel like I could have the baby, but I wasn't sure about the abortion either. He asked me if I could stand having the baby and giving it up for adoption, not knowing where he was. I said that would be hard on me. Then he asked me about my plans for the future, and I said that I planned on going to college, and he asked me if I thought I could do that having a baby. I said no, but I still was unsure about the abortion. He said that if I changed my mind and left and then wanted to come back, I would have to wait a week and it would cost my parents more money and they had already put out so much to come that far. At that point, I agreed with him that abortion was the best option for me.
I went back into the clinic Monday morning and I met the other girls in my group. There were 8 of us including me. I only really bonded with one girl on that day. Dr. Tiller took us one by one to give us sonograms. He did mine and he told me I was almost 28 weeks pregnant and he would perform my abortion. At that point, he took out a long needle and told me that he was going to stop the fetal heartbeat with an injection to his heart. He shoved the needle into my stomach, and I jumped because it hurt. He yelled at me and told me if I move, he will just have to do it again. I stayed still and I remember staring at the ceiling trying not cry staring at this koala bear poster. After that, he and Edna did my first round of laminaria. That hurt like hell too. I kept writhing around on the table, and he got angry again. He held up his hand and told me that he was going to give me a biology lesson, that my body was bending in ways that his fingers did not and I was just making it harder on myself to move, that it would hurt worse the more I moved. After everyone in my group was done, we went into our first group counseling session with Fran. I honestly don't remember much about the first session except for a lot of crying and Fran held my hand the whole time because I was the youngest one in the group.
Over the next few days, they changed the laminaria and we had more counseling. The whole process was physically painful.
Finally, Thursday came and it was time for him to induce my labor. We all were at the clinic at 6:00 am that day. Me and the 7 other girls were taken into the basement where the beds are all lined up side by side and given hospital gowns to change into. I was in the 4th bed and after we were all changed and in our beds, the nurses came around and hooked us up to IV bags. I had two IV needles stuck in me, one in my hand and the other at the side of my wrist. Then, they put in the oxytocin to induce my labor, and I immediately felt like I was going to die. The contractions were so strong and I felt like I had to pee really bad, so I told the nurse and she said I didn't have to, it was just my water. I made her take me to the bathroom and I could not pee. She then told me it was time to go see the doctor. She took me into the operating room and I asked him for a painkiller and he told me that I would not be getting any painkillers during the procedure because it would increase my risk of complications. He told me that I better not scream or I would scare his first trimester patients upstairs. Then, he said he was going to break my water, he took long curved scissors type things and broke my water. It was just a gush and it somehow came back onto my gown and it soaked me. He got annoyed and said that now he had to change my gown. I told him that I hurt so much that I didn't care about the stupid gown. He said he did care and he changed it. Then, he put his whole entire hand inside of me to turn the baby around. Then he took the forceps and pulled him down further. I was crying and I begged him for painkillers again and he said no, not to ask again. I had no drug addiction or any reason why he could not give me pain medication. He just told me that it would increase my risk of complications, no other explanation out of him.
He yelled at me quite a bit throughout my procedure because I was hurting. He then sent me back to my bed and told me not to push until he told me to. I laid there for awhile and I couldn't help it. I started to push. Then, the nurse came and took me into the bathroom where she laid this blue thing over the toilet, and she told me to start pushing. I did and on my last push, she put something in my IV that knocked me out. The next thing I remember is waking up in my bed and seeing my chart on the wall behind me. I grabbed it to look at it and that's how I found out that my baby was a boy. Then, Edna grabbed my chart and said I wasn't allowed to look at it. After that, I had to go back and see Tiller, and he suctioned something out of me. The next day, he did a follow up exam and that was it.
Edna was very rude and condescending the entire time I was there. On my way our after my induction (after I had just given "birth".) I was sitting in the private room waiting for Tiller and I had put my feet up onto the couch and she asked me if I was born in a barn and told me to get me feet off the couch.
While I was at the clinic, he made me sign a paper saying that if I had any complications during the procedure, I would go to the nurse staying in the hotel with us, never to the emergency room.
I have permanent cervical scarring from the laminaria that will cause me pain the rest of my life.
http://www.dr-tiller.com/jeanne.htm
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Not having actually been involved with the development of a fetus from conception through birth, hasn't stopped the "pro-lifers" from dictating what a stranger can and cannot do with their body. From what I gather, ...they also won't be involved after the birth either. But dammit, they'll tell a woman what to do :-\
It's not that simple. They're concerned about the baby. The issue is whether a woman should have the right to choose whether or not to kill her baby. No easy answers. We will never have a solution to this problem IMO.
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Here are comments from a woman who had a baby killed by Tiller when she was seven months pregnant. Says she was raped. Not sure why she waited so long for the abortion. :-\
maybe in the future the unfortunate rape victim (or incest victim) will be forced to bear the child of her rapist. Is that what you would prefer.....even if it happened to your wife or daughter?
Why do you ignore the many many more testimonials of people who truly wanted children and had to make the heartbreaking choice to have a late term abortion to save their own life or to terminate a child that would only live a short a horrible life?
Why do you continue to inflamatory language when you refer to Dr. Tiller?
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I'll retain my right to free speech just like you will
btw - I have no problem with the pro-life point of view as long as they apply it only to themselves.
I do have a problem with using bad science and out right lies (not you per se but the prolife movement) and I absolutely have a problem with the intimidation tactics outside womens health clinic and of course any type of violence
as do i bro which is why i feel that tillers murder was complete and utter crap and that guy should get the max penalty he hadnt been convicted of anything and even if he had it wasnt that nutjobs place to deliver the punishment i dont agree with all of tillers actions it seems obvious to me that at times he worked outside the law but that in no way justifies what this dude did
and in general i try and base my opinions as much of fact as possible and when facts are undefined or muddled i try approach it in the most logical way i can.
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HEY JAGALICIOUS we aint finished my love ;)
i can understand that but your logic for supporting an abortion is that nobody should be able to tell a women what to do with her own body correct?
getting married doesnt equate to ownership of her body or does it? i understand what your saying but by your logic for abortion the husband has no more say as the guy who had a one night stand...revise your logic
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maybe in the future the unfortunate rape victim (or incest victim) will be forced to bear the child of her rapist. Is that what you would prefer.....even if it happened to your wife or daughter?
Why do you ignore the many many more testimonials of people who truly wanted children and had to make the heartbreaking choice to have a late term abortion to save their own life or to terminate a child that would only live a short a horrible life?
Why do you continue to inflamatory language when you refer to Dr. Tiller?
My family isn't the issue.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm highligting the fact that not all of "Tiller the Baby Killer's abortions were for the purpose of saving the mother's life or killing a deformed/disabled baby. Or as he once said: "But, for whatever reason that you are here... we find that there are many reasons why women find that continuing the pregnancy will cause substantial and irreversible impairment of their physical health, their mental health, their emotional health, their family health, age of the patient, safety and well-being... for whatever reason that you are here, welcome to Wichita, and thank you for the opportunity to be helpful to you." http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm
I'm using "inflamatory language" because I feel like it.
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as do i bro which is why i feel that tillers murder was complete and utter crap and that guy should get the max penalty he hadnt been convicted of anything and even if he had it wasnt that nutjobs place to deliver the punishment i dont agree with all of tillers actions it seems obvious to me that at times he worked outside the law but that in no way justifies what this dude did
and in general i try and base my opinions as much of fact as possible and when facts are undefined or muddled i try approach it in the most logical way i can.
Why do you choose to ignore all the women (families) that he helped who were in truly horrible situations?
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My family isn't the issue.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm highligting the fact that not all of "Tiller the Baby Killer's abortions were for the purpose of saving the mother's life or killing a deformed/disabled baby. Or as he once said: "But, for whatever reason that you are here... we find that there are many reasons why women find that continuing the pregnancy will cause substantial and irreversible impairment of their physical health, their mental health, their emotional health, their family health, age of the patient, safety and well-being... for whatever reason that you are here, welcome to Wichita, and thank you for the opportunity to be helpful to you." http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm
I'm using "inflamatory language" because I feel like it.
so you'd rather focus on a tiny few which are still perfectly legal but to which you simply disagree?
Also, are you aware that the type of language you use can have an effect on the mentally unstable people who share your view (or perhaps have even more extreme views). You don't see that as being irresponsible?
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HEY JAGALICIOUS we aint finished my love ;)
I thought we had already established the fact that I'm not your love? You have such a short memory. :-\
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so you'd rather focus on a tiny few which are still perfectly legal but to which you simply disagree?
Also, are you aware that the type of language you use can have an effect on the mentally unstable people who share your view (or perhaps have even more extreme views). You don't see that as being irresponsible?
I'm not focusing on anything. I'm providing better context. For example:
1. He didn't kill third trimester babies solely to save the mother's life or to kill a deformed/disabled baby. Killing third trimester babies because a woman is depressed about being pregnant and took months to figure out she wants to kill her baby is not admirable at all. This is part of the reason the man was prosecuted.
2. Discussion of first trimester abortions and "Tiller the Baby Killer" are pretty irrelevant, because that's not what his practice was about.
3. There is no question that a third trimester baby is a baby. After reading about the procedure, I think what he did, at least in some instances, was tantamount to infanticide.
I see no problem with calling the late "Tiller the Baby Killer" by a nickname that he earned. I could care less if some "mentally unstable" person reads that moniker on this board, which is all over the freakin internet. Nothing irresponsible about it all. Dumb question.
Plus he's dead, so what difference does it make?
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Why do you choose to ignore all the women (families) that he helped who were in truly horrible situations?
whoa where did i ever say that? i said that its clear that AT TIMES he worked outside the law not that he never helped anybody...
im not denying that he has helped ppl just like you cant deny that there are women out there who feel that he helped them make a horrible decision...
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I thought we had already established the fact that I'm not your love? You have such a short memory. :-\
actually i have a fantastic memory, i just really attracted to a women who believes that i get ownership of her body when we get married :P will you marry me...i promise only to smack you around if you really get out of line ;D
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I'm not focusing on anything. I'm providing better context. For example:
1. He didn't kill third trimester babies solely to save the mother's life or to kill a deformed/disabled baby. Killing third trimester babies because a woman is depressed about being pregnant and took months to figure out she wants to kill her baby is not admirable at all. This is part of the reason the man was prosecuted.
you're lying.
this is from your own link: Tiller's website only advertises "2nd Trimester Elective and 2nd/3rd Trimester Therapeutic Abortion Care".
He was prosecuted and also acquited on all charges..... why did you leave that part out?
3. There is no question that a third trimester baby is a baby. After reading about the procedure, I think what he did, at least in some instances, was tantamount to infanticide.
again - third trimester only for the health of the mother - why do you continue to lie
I see no problem with calling the late "Tiller the Baby Killer" by a nickname that he earned. I could care less if some "mentally unstable" person reads that moniker on this board, which is all over the freakin internet. Nothing irresponsible about it all. Dumb question.
Plus he's dead, so what difference does it make?
it matters because it could happen again and calling the man a killer is wrong because it's based on lies and ignorance
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whoa where did i ever say that? i said that its clear that AT TIMES he worked outside the law not that he never helped anybody...
im not denying that he has helped ppl just like you cant deny that there are women out there who feel that he helped them make a horrible decision...
how it is clear to you that he worked outside the law.
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you're lying.
this is from your own link: Tiller's website only advertises "2nd Trimester Elective and 2nd/3rd Trimester Therapeutic Abortion Care".
He was prosecuted and also acquited on all charges..... why did you leave that part out?
again - third trimester only for the health of the mother - why do you continue to lie
it matters because it could happen again and calling the man a killer is wrong because it's based on lies and ignorance
::) Okay genius, "therapeutic" included mental health. From the link I posted earlier: Dr. Paul McHugh is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. McHugh was hired by the then-Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to review some of Tiller's records. McHugh said the records show Tiller performed abortions for trivial reasons. One woman even said she was having a late-term, abortion because she wanted to go to a rock concert. Click here to see Dr. McHugh's interview in Lenexa, Kansas on June 11, 2007. http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm
I don't give a rip if he was acquitted. OJ was acquitted. Big friggin deal.
I created a thread about "Tiller the Baby Killer" and updated the thread to include a story about his acquittal. http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=114147.0
I have no problem with his nickname. I don't care if you have a problem with it.
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actually i have a fantastic memory, i just really attracted to a women who believes that i get ownership of her body when we get married :P will you marry me...i promise only to smack you around if you really get out of line ;D
Actually, you have it backwards... A man has to be able to own my body before I'd ever consent to marry him :P
...but in your case, ...I might make an exception... depending on how insurable you are. Are you insurable?
And I'm not talking health insurance, ...I'm talking life insurance, ... a multi-gadzillion dollar euro policy, that pays out to me in the event of your death by disease, accidental means, acts of war, acts of God, violence, natural causes, or even suicide. I don't want dollars, those things are fast becoming worthless.
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Beach Bum - It's pretty reasonable to draw your conclusion on Dr Tiller. However, i would urge you to nto be so hasty in saying he performed abortions for 'depression' etc. You nor I have ZERO medical proof that this is the case. You and I have ZERO understanding of each individual case. These testimonials may have some truth to them, they may have some fabrication. They may be a way of searching out blame for not having a child.
Once again though the religious right, anti-abortion crew have jumped on something they don't understand. That is the case by case basis with which Dr Tiller dealt with patients. Some may have had a bad experience and from reading some tesitmonals that's probably the case. Some however, are forever thankful for the services provided for a fetus that would surely die outside of the womb or other circumstances.
Fact is though you are passing judgement with no facts. You do not personally know each case and the reasons behind it. You are generalizing that he terminated pregnancy for almost no cause or reason.
Oh and it's abortion not killing. It's not Illegal nor will it ever be in the United States of America. Please save the 'tiller the killer' rhetoric for your terrorist meetings. This is not one of those.
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::) Okay genius, "therapeutic" included mental health. From the link I posted earlier: Dr. Paul McHugh is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. McHugh was hired by the then-Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to review some of Tiller's records. McHugh said the records show Tiller performed abortions for trivial reasons. One woman even said she was having a late-term, abortion because she wanted to go to a rock concert. Click here to see Dr. McHugh's interview in Lenexa, Kansas on June 11, 2007. http://www.dr-tiller.com/elective.htm
I don't give a rip if he was acquitted. OJ was acquitted. Big friggin deal.
I created a thread about "Tiller the Baby Killer" and updated the thread to include a story about his acquittal. http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=114147.0
I have no problem with his nickname. I don't care if you have a problem with it.
Gotcha - so when someone is acquitted on all charges you just choose to ignore it and keep believing whatever you want as long as it supports your preconceived notions.
Please show me some proof that Tiller performed an abortion because the woman stated she wanted to go to a rock concert.
That smacks of the typical lie that the dumber people in your crowd fall for hook line and sinker
btw - there is no correlation btw. Tiller and OJ but kudo's to you continuing your habit of conflation
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I've always found it rather ironic that so many men get upset by abortion, yet there aren't any where near the actions taken to help single mothers.
My stance has been if you want to ban abortion, then make leaving the mother of your child illegal. Make it enforceable by law that the man has to be in the child's life and pay 50% of all costs not just some meger % every month while he can be free from responsibility.
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Beach Bum - It's pretty reasonable to draw your conclusion on Dr Tiller. However, i would urge you to nto be so hasty in saying he performed abortions for 'depression' etc. You nor I have ZERO medical proof that this is the case. You and I have ZERO understanding of each individual case. These testimonials may have some truth to them, they may have some fabrication. They may be a way of searching out blame for not having a child.
Once again though the religious right, anti-abortion crew have jumped on something they don't understand. That is the case by case basis with which Dr Tiller dealt with patients. Some may have had a bad experience and from reading some tesitmonals that's probably the case. Some however, are forever thankful for the services provided for a fetus that would surely die outside of the womb or other circumstances.
Fact is though you are passing judgement with no facts. You do not personally know each case and the reasons behind it. You are generalizing that he terminated pregnancy for almost no cause or reason.
Oh and it's abortion not killing. It's not Illegal nor will it ever be in the United States of America. Please save the 'tiller the killer' rhetoric for your terrorist meetings. This is not one of those.
that's pretty much all Bum ever does. He either ignores facts, makes up his own facts or cites previously disproven information. Mostly he just doesn't give a shit and plows ahead with whatever he believes, facts be damned.
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Beach Bum - It's pretty reasonable to draw your conclusion on Dr Tiller. However, i would urge you to nto be so hasty in saying he performed abortions for 'depression' etc. You nor I have ZERO medical proof that this is the case. You and I have ZERO understanding of each individual case. These testimonials may have some truth to them, they may have some fabrication. They may be a way of searching out blame for not having a child.
Once again though the religious right, anti-abortion crew have jumped on something they don't understand. That is the case by case basis with which Dr Tiller dealt with patients. Some may have had a bad experience and from reading some tesitmonals that's probably the case. Some however, are forever thankful for the services provided for a fetus that would surely die outside of the womb or other circumstances.
Fact is though you are passing judgement with no facts. You do not personally know each case and the reasons behind it. You are generalizing that he terminated pregnancy for almost no cause or reason.
Oh and it's abortion not killing. It's not Illegal nor will it ever be in the United States of America. Please save the 'tiller the killer' rhetoric for your terrorist meetings. This is not one of those.
I know enough to have an opinion about "Tiller the Baby Killer." But thanks for participating. :)
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Gotcha - so when someone is acquitted on all charges you just choose to ignore it and keep believing whatever you want as long as it supports your preconceived notions.
Please show me some proof that Tiller performed an abortion because the woman stated she wanted to go to a rock concert.
That smacks of the typical lie that the dumber people in your crowd fall for hook line and sinker
btw - there is no correlation btw. Tiller and OJ but kudo's to you continuing your habit of conflation
Not at all. Just highlighting how an acquittal doesn't mean the person didn't commit a crime. You have to actually look at the facts. Sometimes juries get it wrong. Like they did with OJ. But that might be a little too complicated for you to understand. :)
I just gave you the excerpt with the link. Good website.
"Conflation"? LOL!!!! Stop trying to sound smart. lol . . . . .
lol . . . .
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Not at all. Just highlighting how an acquittal doesn't mean the person didn't commit a crime. You have to actually look at the facts. Sometimes juries get it wrong. Like they did with OJ. But that might be a little too complicated for you to understand. :)
I just gave you the excerpt with the link. Good website.
"Conflation"? LOL!!!! Stop trying to sound smart. lol . . . . .
lol . . . .
acquitted on all 19 counts - you should at least mention it rather than just mentioning the prosecution and nothing else.
glad I could help you learn a new word now maybe you'll stop using that lame tactic ( probably not eh?)
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Sarcasm abound.....
Shall I call the Topic Police?
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Sarcasm abound.....
Shall I call the Topic Police?
You ARE the Topic Police. Hey I just said that. Or was it deleted? :D
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You ARE the Topic Police. Hey I just said that. Or was it deleted? :D
Not me, I am the Advanced Warning Topic Police Proximity Alert Liaison :D
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Not me, I am the Advanced Warning Topic Police Proximity Alert Liaison :D
lol. Probably me doing too much multi-tasking and didn't hit the "Post" button. Trying to get out of here before the Laker game starts . . . . :)
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topic police here!!! This thread is about a wacko that thinks his personal views/beliefs justify the murder of someone.stay on topic!
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Topic Police in da house!
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Topic Police in da house!
;D
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The difference is FoxNews' audience all need to be medicated, while Olbermann's audience is more level headed.
::)
I liked some of his rants against bush but he is a total partisan and one sided, not objectionable at all and he won't bring anyone with an opposing viewpoint on his show.
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As if we didn't already know it, there is truly something wrong in the brains of the rabid anti-abortion crowd.
The suspected murderer of Dr. Tiller said this in a phone interview with the AP:
"I haven't been convicted of anything, and I am being treated as a criminal,"
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-abortion-tiller5-2009jun05,0,4987789.story
now, realize this man has a history of mental illness but what's the explanation for an allegedly sane person such as Ann Coulter?
Here's Ann Coulters take on the murder of Dr. Tiller:
I wouldn't kill an abortionist myself, but I wouldn't want to impose my moral values on others. No one is for shooting abortionists. But how will criminalizing men making difficult, often tragic, decisions be an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the shootings of abortionists?
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=32140
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WTF??!!!
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As if we didn't already know it, there is truly something wrong in the brains of the rabid anti-abortion crowd.
The suspected murderer of Dr. Tiller said this in a phone interview with the AP:
"I haven't been convicted of anything, and I am being treated as a criminal,"
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-abortion-tiller5-2009jun05,0,4987789.story
now, realize this man has a history of mental illness but what's the explanation for an allegedly sane person such as Ann Coulter?
Here's Ann Coulters take on the murder of Dr. Tiller:
I wouldn't kill an abortionist myself, but I wouldn't want to impose my moral values on others. No one is for shooting abortionists. But how will criminalizing men making difficult, often tragic, decisions be an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the shootings of abortionists?
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=32140
I'd like to know where she gets her numbers in that article from. (I actually "skimmed" the whole thing.) She's just arbitrarily spouting them off, when voter records seem to say she's wrong.
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I'd like to know where she gets her numbers in that article from. (I actually "skimmed" the whole thing.) She's just arbitrarily spouting them off, when voter records seem to say she's wrong.
Out of her ass, ...the same place she gets all her other information. ::)
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She's pretty obnoxious, but this is a decent commentary. "Tiller the Baby Killer" apparently got a lot of favors. Money talks, especially in the political world.
49 Million to Five
by Ann Coulter
06/03/2009
In the wake of the shooting of late-term abortionist George Tiller, President Barack Obama sent out a welcome message that this nation would not tolerate attacks on pro-lifers or any other Americans because of their religion or beliefs.
Ha ha! Just kidding. That was the lead sentence -- with minor edits -- of a New York Times editorial warning about theoretical hate crimes against Muslims published eight months after 9/11. Can pro-lifers get a hate crimes bill passed and oceans of ink devoted to assuring Americans that "most pro-lifers are peaceful"?
For years, we've had to hear about the grave threat that Americans might overreact to a terrorist attack committed by 19 Muslims shouting "Allahu akbar" as they flew commercial jets into American skyscrapers. That would be the equivalent of 19 pro-lifers shouting "Abortion kills a beating heart!" as they gunned down thousands of innocent citizens in Wichita, Kan.
Why aren't liberals rushing to assure us this time that "most pro-lifers are peaceful"? Unlike Muslims, pro-lifers actually are peaceful.
According to recent polling, a majority of Americans oppose abortion -- which is consistent with liberals' hysterical refusal to allow us to vote on the subject. In a country with approximately 150 million pro-lifers, five abortionists have been killed since Roe v. Wade.
In that same 36 years, more than 49 million babies have been killed by abortionists. Let's recap that halftime score, sports fans: 49 million to five.
Meanwhile, fewer than 2 million Muslims live in America and, while Muslims are less murderous than abortionists, I'm fairly certain they've killed more than five people in the United States in the last 36 years. For some reason, the number "3,000" keeps popping into my head.
So in a country that is more than 50 percent pro-life -- and 80 percent opposed to the late-term abortions of the sort performed by Tiller -- only five abortionists have been killed. And in a country that is less than 0.5 percent Muslim, several dozen Muslims have killed thousands of Americans.
But the killing of about one abortionist per decade leads liberals to condemn the entire pro-life movement as "domestic terrorists." At least liberals have finally found some terrorists they'd like to send to Guantanamo.
Tiller bragged about performing 60,000 abortions, including abortions of viable babies, able to survive outside the mother's womb. He made millions of dollars performing late-term abortions so gruesome that only two other abortionists -- not a squeamish bunch -- in the entire country would perform them.
Kansas law allows late-term abortions only to save the mother's life or to prevent "irreversible physical damage" to the mother. But Tiller was more than happy to kill viable babies, provided the mothers: (1) forked over $5,000; and (2) mentioned "substantial and irreversible conditions," which, in Tiller's view, apparently included not being able to go to concerts or rodeos or being "temporarily depressed" on account of their pregnancies.
In return for blood money from Tiller's profitable abattoir, Democrats ran a political protection racket for the late-term abortionist.
In 1997, The Washington Post reported that Tiller attended one of Bill Clinton's White House coffees for major campaign contributors. In addition to a $25,000 donation to Clinton, Tiller wanted to thank him personally for 30 months of U.S. Marshals' protection paid for by the U.S. taxpayer.
Kansas Democrats who received hundreds of thousands of campaign dollars from Tiller repeatedly intervened to block any interference with Tiller's abortion mill.
Kathleen Sebelius, who was the governor of Kansas until Obama made her Health and Human Services Secretary, received hundreds of thousands of campaign dollars from Tiller. Sebelius vetoed one bill restricting late-term abortions and another one that would have required Tiller to turn over his records pertaining to "substantial and irreversible conditions" justifying his late-term abortions.
Kansas Attorney General Paul Morrison also got elected with the help of Tiller's blood money, replacing a Republican attorney general who was in the middle of an investigation of Tiller for various crimes including his failure to report statutory rapes, despite performing abortions on pregnant girls as young as 11.
But soon after Morrison replaced the Republican attorney general, the charges against Tiller were reduced and, in short order, he was acquitted of a few misdemeanors. In what is a not uncommon cost of doing business with Democrats, Morrison is now gone, having been forced to resign when his mistress charged him with sexual harassment and corruption.
Tiller was protected not only by a praetorian guard of elected Democrats, but also by the protective coloration of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America -- coincidentally, the same church belonged to by Tiller's fellow Wichita executioner, the BTK killer.
The official Web page of the ELCA instructs: "A developing life in the womb does not have an absolute right to be born." As long as we're deciding who does and doesn't have an "absolute right to be born," who's to say late-term abortionists have an "absolute right" to live?
I wouldn't kill an abortionist myself, but I wouldn't want to impose my moral values on others. No one is for shooting abortionists. But how will criminalizing men making difficult, often tragic, decisions be an effective means of achieving the goal of reducing the shootings of abortionists?
Following the moral precepts of liberals, I believe the correct position is: If you don't believe in shooting abortionists, then don't shoot one.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=32140
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She's pretty obnoxious, but this is a decent commentary. "Tiller the Baby Killer" apparently got a lot of favors. Money talks, especially in the political world.
49 Million to Five
by Ann Coulter
Coulter is a sick twisted individual and I hope you're joking about this being a decent commentary but somehow I think you're serious
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Oh come on. You know good and well I don't care what you think. :)
I don't agree with any attempt to justify or minimize the murder of "Tiller the Baby Killer" and I think the guy who shot him should be prosecuted, convicted, and executed (assuming they have the death penalty in that state).
But she makes good points about the influence of money on "Tiller the Baby Killer's" abortion practice. What the governor did was shameful. The fact money was likely the driving factor in legislation that directly affected him and the criminal charges that were pursued against him is shameful. Money really corrupts the politcial process.
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Oh come on. You know good and well I don't care what you think. :)
I don't agree with any attempt to justify or minimize the murder of "Tiller the Baby Killer" and I think the guy who shot him should be prosecuted, convicted, and executed (assuming they have the death penalty in that state).
But she makes good points about the influence of money on "Tiller the Baby Killer's" abortion practice. What the governor did was shameful. The fact money was likely the driving factor in legislation that directly affected him and the criminal charges that were pursued against him is shameful. Money really corrupts the politcial process.
I'd be suprised if anyone cared what an anonymous person on a message board thought about them. I'd also be suprises if even 25% of the stuff that Coulter has written is true. For example, this sounds like complete horseshit but it's just the kind of stuff that pushes all the buttons of the anit-abortion moonbats and drives them into a frenzy:
Tiller bragged about performing 60,000 abortions....but Tiller was more than happy to kill viable babies, provided the mothers: (1) forked over $5,000; and (2) mentioned "substantial and irreversible conditions," which, in Tiller's view, apparently included not being able to go to concerts or rodeos or being "temporarily depressed" on account of their pregnancies.
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I wonder if the Justice Department is doing a similar probe of the murder at the military recruiting station by a Muslim?
Department of Justice Opens Federal Probe Into Kansas Abortion Doctor's Murder
Friday, June 05, 2009
AP
The Justice Department launched a federal probe Friday into whether the killing of a Kansas abortion doctor was part of a larger plot involving multiple accomplices.
The investigation will consist of a thorough review of evidence linked to the murder of Dr. George Tiller and an assessment of any possible violations of federal statutes, the DOJ said in a press release issued Friday.
The department's civil rights division will probe possible federal crimes in connection with Tiller's slaying at his church last Sunday in Wichita.
Click here for photos.
Specifically, government lawyers will seek to determine if the killing violated a federal law passed in 1994 creating criminal penalties for violent or damaging conduct toward abortion providers and their patients. That law is known as the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act.
"The Department of Justice will work tirelessly to determine the full involvement of any and all actors in this horrible crime," said Loretta King, head of the department's civil rights division.
Anyone who played a role in the killing, she said, will be prosecuted "to the full extent of federal law."
Police have charged Scott Roeder, 51, with Tiller's death. After the killing, U.S. Marshals were sent to provide security to some abortion providers and clinics.
Tiller was a late-term abortion provider and had been the target of attempts on his life in the past.
Tiller's funeral is scheduled for Saturday, and U.S. Marshals spokesman Jeff Carter said federal deputies "are committed to ensuring every individual wishing to mourn Doctor Tiller's passing can do so in a safe and secure environment."
Roeder is charged with first-degree murder and is being held on $5 million bond at Sedgwick County Jail.
He called The Associated Press from the jail Thursday.
"I haven't been convicted of anything, and I am being treated as a criminal," Roeder said.
If convicted of the state murder charge, Roeder would face a mandatory life sentence and would not be eligible for parole for at least 25 years.
His preliminary hearing is scheduled for June 16, although it will likely be continued.
Tiller and his Wichita clinic have been a regular target of anti-abortion protests, including the 45-day "Summer of Mercy" event staged by Operation Rescue in 1991. His clinic was damaged by a pipe bomb in 1986, and a protester shot at him in 1993, wounding his arms.
Hundreds of people are expected at his funeral Saturday.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525243,00.html
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Really? Evangelicals are not against birth control to my knowledge. The Roman Catholic church is, and they are not Evangelicals.
http://www.thepillkills.com/
Attn. all GETBIG ProLifers - don't forget that today is "THE PILL KILLS" DAY
On Saturday, June 6, pro-lifers across the country will be participating in the largest protest ever against the birth control pill and other birth control products. Last year, participants across the United States shared the facts on exactly how the pill kills babies. This year, we will expose the sordid details surrounding the tragic effects these chemicals have on women. We will emphasize the truth about how the pill kills women.
Join American Life League and protest the pill. Help us unmask the truth and hopefully save lives. You can do this by having a presence outside of doctors’ offices, pharmacies, Planned Parenthood clinics and other family planning facilities, or even out on the sidewalk at a busy intersection. Wherever it is – help get the word out!
http://www.thepillkills.com/
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ha ha could you imagine what the population in the US would be without the birth control pill or abortion.Imagine the taxes from the cost of the state providing for all those unwanted babies.shhhiiiit.there would be adoption agency's threw out the country that resembled prison's filled to brim with kids.
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ha ha could you imagine what the population in the US would be without the birth control pill or abortion.Imagine the taxes from the cost of the state providing for all those unwanted babies.shhhiiiit.there would be adoption agency's threw out the country that resembled prison's filled to brim with kids.
haven't you heard?
the pill makes the baby jesus cry
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http://www.thepillkills.com/
Attn. all GETBIG ProLifers - don't forget that today is "THE PILL KILLS" DAY
On Saturday, June 6, pro-lifers across the country will be participating in the largest protest ever against the birth control pill and other birth control products. Last year, participants across the United States shared the facts on exactly how the pill kills babies. This year, we will expose the sordid details surrounding the tragic effects these chemicals have on women. We will emphasize the truth about how the pill kills women.
Join American Life League and protest the pill. Help us unmask the truth and hopefully save lives. You can do this by having a presence outside of doctors’ offices, pharmacies, Planned Parenthood clinics and other family planning facilities, or even out on the sidewalk at a busy intersection. Wherever it is – help get the word out!
http://www.thepillkills.com/
Are Evangelicals and the American Life League group the same thing? Do you know what an Evangelical is?
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Are Evangelicals and the American Life League group the same thing? Do you know what an Evangelical is?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evangelical
Adjective
evangelical (comparative more evangelical, superlative most evangelical)
1. Pertaining to the gospel(s) of the Christian New Testament
2. Pertaining to the doctrines or teachings of the Christian gospel or Christianity in general.
3. Protestant; specifically, designating European churches which were originally Lutheran rather than Calvinist.
4. Pertaining to a movement in Protestant Christianity that stresses personal conversion and the authority of the Bible (evangelicalism).
5. Zealously enthusiastic.
btw: Loco, can you please confine your BS questions to one thread rather than asking the same thing all over the board when it's already been asked & answered. You're coming across as rather evangelical. :P
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http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evangelical
Adjective
evangelical (comparative more evangelical, superlative most evangelical)
1. Pertaining to the gospel(s) of the Christian New Testament
2. Pertaining to the doctrines or teachings of the Christian gospel or Christianity in general.
3. Protestant; specifically, designating European churches which were originally Lutheran rather than Calvinist.
4. Pertaining to a movement in Protestant Christianity that stresses personal conversion and the authority of the Bible (evangelicalism).
5. Zealously enthusiastic.
btw: Loco, can you please confine your BS questions to one thread rather than asking the same thing all over the board when it's already been asked & answered. You're coming across as rather evangelical. :P
Jag, can you and Straw Man please confine your ignorance about Evangelicals and birth control to one thread?
You still don't know what an Evangelical is. So I suggest you stop throwing the word around until you find out! :P