What is happening on this board?

[StreetSoldier4U]

I'm sorry you don't like my reply, but you're are incorrect.  

The historical and cultural practice of slavery in the ancient near east and the use of bond servants within ancient Israel is simply not in dispute.  

I can only assume you've never heard resolution to this objection before.

You are wrong.  You're just repeating the words of christian apologists.

[Man of Steel]

lol. Are you kidding me? The bible degrades women. It makes women subservient to man and degrades them. Seriously, grow up and look at reality.

I feel really sorry for you. You're so blinded and brainwashed. I could never live like that.

Here is a thread on headship and submission....take a look if you'd like.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=514364.0

[StreetSoldier4U]

Here is a thread on headship and submission....take a look if you'd like.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=514364.0

Is it more of you parroting christian apologists?

[Man of Steel]

You are wrong.  You're just repeating the words of christian apologists.

This is a nonsequitur.

You bet I study and study and study....doesn't make what I posted incorrect though....my words are my own not some copy and paste.

My favorite apologist is the apostle Paul who wrote a ton of the New Testament.

[Man of Steel]

Is it more of you parroting christian apologists?

Ah, so you simply resort to a "you can't study the work of great theologians.....everythi ng you post must be completely original from your own brain" perspective.

If I didn't study others would simply say "ever read a book?"

These arguments are the weakest of the weak.

[StreetSoldier4U]

Ah, so you simply resort to a "you can't study the work of great theologians.....everythi ng you post must be completely original from your own brain" perspective.

If I didn't study others would simply say "ever read a book?"

These arguments are the weakest of the weak.

I guess the answers is yes.  Youve found the answers you want and that has less to do with facts and more to do with what you want to believe.   Keep polishing that turd.

[Man of Steel]

I guess the answers is yes.  Youve found the answers you want and that has less to do with facts and more to do with what you want to believe.   Keep polishing that turd.

Ok, I apologize because I simply assumed you didn't have any additional information to support your position.

That said, feel free to outline your supporting facts concerning slavery practices in the ancient near east and the use of bond servants in the ancient Israel.

I'm interested to hear the findings of your independent study that contain no outside influence.

[StreetSoldier4U]

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
 
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT

 
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT.
 
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
 
 
    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
 
    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
 
    In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
 
    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."  (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)




Where do I sign up?  Slavery sounds great.  Keep polishing that turd.
 

[StreetSoldier4U]

Ok, I apologize because I simply assumed you didn't have any additional information to support your position.

That said, feel free to outline your supporting facts concerning slavery practices in the ancient near east and the use of bond servants in the ancient Israel.

You are literally repeating apologists.  I doubt you read anything else.

[Man of Steel]

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
 
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years.  Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom.  If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year.  But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.  If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master.  But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children.  I would rather not go free.'  If he does this, his master must present him before God.  Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl.  After that, the slave will belong to his master forever.  (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT

 
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT.
 
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
 
 
    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
 
    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
 
    In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
 
    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."  (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)




Where do I sign up?  Slavery sounds great.  Keep polishing that turd.
 

Ok, we have  copy and paste of verses that support my position.  Do you have any of the facts you mentioned that back up yours?  I'm more interested in your defense not mine.

[Man of Steel]

You are literally repeating apologists.  I doubt you read anything else.

I've read the bible, theologians, apologists, dissenting opinions and historical texts.  Do you have other recommendations?

[StreetSoldier4U]

Ok, we have  copy and paste of verses that support my position.  Do you have any of the facts you mentioned that back up yours?  I'm more interested in your defense not mine.

You are the last person who should be chastising another for copy and paste.   These are the words in the bible. The words are all the evidence one needs.  Keep polishing that turd.  I do understand how you feel.  You love your religion and cant reconcile the less than savory elements.  

[Man of Steel]

You love your religion and cant reconcile the less than savory elements. 

I do it everyday kiddo.....have a good one.

[StreetSoldier4U]

I do it everyday kiddo.....have a good one.

I see no evidence of that.  Keep polishing that turd.

[_bruce_]

Religions carry that sad maso vibe that so many people secretly love - that's why they hate religion.
Muh struggle, muh so bad, muh wet pussies, muh punishment... it's a vicious of competing emotions and thoughts.
Nonetheless there's some eternal wisdom in the scriptures which I highly respect - in which way it connects to the bigger picture I do not know and never will.

The bigger picture seems to be beyond 3 dimensions - an eternal struggle of vast proportions...
we'll see.

[StreetSoldier4U]

Religions carry that sad maso vibe that so many people secretly love - that's why they hate religion.
Muh struggle, muh so bad, muh wet pussies, muh punishment... it's a vicious of competing emotions and thoughts.
Nonetheless there's some eternal wisdom in the scriptures which I highly respect - in which way it connects to the bigger picture I do not know and never will.

The bigger picture seems to be beyond 3 dimensions - an eternal struggle of vast proportions...
we'll see.

I agree with you.  What I don't agree with is the tendency toward revisionism.    Condoning slavery doesnt make the sermon on the mount any less beautiful and inspiring.

[The Ugly]

Ok, we have  copy and paste of verses that support my position.  Do you have any of the facts you mentioned that back up yours?  I'm more interested in your defense not mine.

Even if the slave/servant passages referred to common Israeli culture, do you find God's position on this moral? I mean, these verses endorse despicable acts, wouldn't you agree?

[Kwon_2]

sloopy lips to lips

[snx]

new marketing word will be used in the future.
The "yummie", which stand for "young urban male", just like "yuppie" meant "young urban professional".
Yummies have a lot of disposal income, so marketing depts are focusing on this group.

Are you saying that based on the spate of posts about how much getbig men detest women, how they behave, marriage, and heterosexuality in general, that I should be doing the lion's share of my research into this affluent target market right here on our very own getbig forum?

[Grape Ape]

Are you saying that based on the spate of posts about how much getbig men detest women, how they behave, marriage, and heterosexuality in general, that I should be doing the lion's share of my research into this affluent target market right here on our very own getbig forum?

What you should be doing is posting the the Miguel Cabrera thread.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=527903.0

[snx]

What you should be doing is posting the the Miguel Cabrera thread.

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=527903.0

You've never been more right in your life! LOL!

Message received.

[Man of Steel]

Even if the slave/servant passages referred to common Israeli culture, do you find God's position on this moral? I mean, these verses endorse despicable acts, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I find it morally correct that the rights of a bondservant working off an individual or family debt were upheld.   That’s the progressive nature of the law that protected the bondservant (“ebed” in Hebrew) within Israel that was found nowhere else in the pagan nations of the ancient near east.  

I absolutely know the perception is that these folks were kept in shackles, practically starved, beaten, maimed, raped and treated like human garbage based on the whims of the debt holder.   Just not the case (this was not ancient Egypt or the antebellum south in US).   Simple comparisons with other ancient near east cultures will show you that the slave (not the bondservant) was treated like human garbage in those cases.   The practices utilized with bond servants in ancient Israel were leaps and bounds above the slavery of surrounding pagan nations (these were the “work you to death, starve, maim, rape and beat you” cultures).  The reality is that there was virtually no comparison between the treatment of bondservants in ancient Israel versus the treatment of slaves in the surrounding pagan cultures.
 
The Israelites that had acquired debt (ex: through failed business, theft, failed crops, etc…) and were unable to repay entered into a contract with the debtholder to work off the debt.  As was customary in ancient Israel, sometimes individuals, individual and a family member or entire families worked off the debt.  If the debt was satisfied prior to 6 years of service then that was it….the bondservant was released.  If 6 years of service came and went and the debt was not repaid in full the debtholder simply lost out and the bond servant was to be released regardless.  Often times the released bondservant(s) was to be given compensation, lifestock, grains, wine, etc…..upon their release.  Sometimes the bondservants became full employees after the debt was settled and began earning a wage (if they chose to stay on board).  Sometimes bondservants chose to stay with the family they worked off debt for and continue the bondservitude after the debt was satisfied because they developed such a strong relationship with the family they owed a debt to.  Sometimes females bondservants became spouses of the owners or the owner's children (marriages were arranged) and as was customary the owner would pay out a brideprice to the bondservants family.   Within the year of jubilee many, many bondservants were released from their service regardless of time served or amount of debt repaid.

And yes sometimes the bondservants' performance or behavior was inappropriate and they were punished for it.   Although, the laws for bondservants didn't condone the capricious beating of the bondservant, the laws were meant to discourage that behavior on behalf of the owner.  If owner did something as vile as murder a bondservant then that owner lost their life.   Everyone quotes the scripture “if the owner beats the slave and slave recovers after 3 days……then all is good”.   This circumstance was simply an exception, not the norm, but the laws were meant to govern all circumstances both the good and the bad.  If the bondservant was beaten to a point in which they could not work they were supposed to be freed.  The debtholder/owner was engaged in a contract with the bondservant and that bondservant was deemed property, but human property for the purposes of sweat equity for debt repayment that retained rights and privileges and just treatment.  The owner was outlawed from ruling over the bondservant like a tyrant….that was not permitted.  Did they work some of these folks hard?  Sure.   Was that hard work intended to be cruel and brutal and relentless and unreasonable?  LOL no….that’s a fiction inferred by ignorant readers.

God’s ultimate goal was to lead Israel away from the practice of using bondservants altogether.  The Lord works within the confines of our lives drawing us closer to him and away from the adopted practices of our hardened hearts that we freely choose to engage in.  Regardless, the Lord is patient and will allow our free choices and some our less than desirable customs to be honored with the intention of leading us away from those practices.   The use of bondservants is not the preference of the Lord though.  Bondservants were also meant to respect their owners.  Remember, some of the bondservants were working off a debt based a crime they committted against the family that held their contract for debt repayment.  As I’ve said time and again on this topic it is completely illogical that God would free the Israelites from the brutal, forced slavery in Egypt and then allow them to engage in that same behavior among the people of their own nation.    Folks will simply say “well, that’s a biblical contradiction” LOL……sorry, no.  That’s ignorance on part of the critic that has done little more than a surface reading of the scripture.  When I first read the these scriptures I was SHOCKED, but then I dug in deeper and understood the culture of the Isaelites, the culture of the pagan nations, learned some of the Hebrew terms and the definitely gained insight on the context…..makes all the difference.

Now I know I wrote all of this and some will just reply with “b.s.” or “keep polishing that turd” or whatever other witty retort they can think of; regardless, I hope this was at least helpful.  I've learned that some religious objectors love their canned objections so much that they refuse to accept resolution when it's presented....I'm helpless to do anything about that.  Most people won't even read this.

[Man of Steel]

You are literally repeating apologists.  I doubt you read anything else.

I did neglect to mention that not only do I study theology and apologetics, I am an apologist.

[bigbobs]

I understand.

So many Christians take someone else's belief (or lack thereof) personally.

Your choice in your spirituality has nothing to do with me, nor is it in my control.

We are all humans and we all have the ability to choose.

I would not treat you any different than anyone else. My son in law is an Atheist. Am I happy about it? No. Do I try to change him? No.

It is not my job or my place to judge.

We all have questions. There is so much that we just don't know. Can I prove that I am right in my beliefs? No.

All we can do is hope and try to be cool to one another. It's actually easier to be nice. It's less stressful. But what do we usually choose to do? We hate. We judge. We talk shit. I guess it's part of being a human in a fallen world that is full of evil and full of hatred.

I don't know. I don't have the answers.

Spot on, despite that our concepts of God are different (I'm Muslim) I strongly believe we can't judge each other and should not have animosity towards anyone for having different beliefs.

I think many athiests don't believe in God because of the concept that's taught (in Christianity for example, and no offence intended) that God is apparently a being, like a big guy in the sky, with feelings, emotions and other such limitations that humans have.  That does sound hard to believe for most people - that there's any "being" which they cannot physically see.

So I try to tell them that God is not a "being" (which Islam teaches as well), that is physical or can be seen.  I think of it in terms of God being a "force" rather than a "being." I don't think many would deny that there is some force which created or allowed the various laws of science and the countless conditions on this planet that allow life.  Like an "invisible hand" that governs us and is responsible for us being here.

[The Ugly]

Yes, I find it morally correct that the rights of a bondservant working off an individual or family debt were upheld.   That’s the progressive nature of the law that protected the bondservant (“ebed” in Hebrew) within Israel that was found nowhere else in the pagan nations of the ancient near east.  

I absolutely know the perception is that these folks were kept in shackles, practically starved, beaten, maimed, raped and treated like human garbage based on the whims of the debt holder.   Just not the case (this was not ancient Egypt or the antebellum south in US).   Simple comparisons with other ancient near east cultures will show you that the slave (not the bondservant) was treated like human garbage in those cases.   The practices utilized with bond servants in ancient Israel were leaps and bounds above the slavery of surrounding pagan nations (these were the “work you to death, starve, maim, rape and beat you” cultures).  The reality is that there was virtually no comparison between the treatment of bondservants in ancient Israel versus the treatment of slaves in the surrounding pagan cultures.
 
The Israelites that had acquired debt (ex: through failed business, theft, failed crops, etc…) and were unable to repay entered into a contract with the debtholder to work off the debt.  As was customary in ancient Israel, sometimes individuals, individual and a family member or entire families worked off the debt.  If the debt was satisfied prior to 6 years of service then that was it….the bondservant was released.  If 6 years of service came and went and the debt was not repaid in full the debtholder simply lost out and the bond servant was to be released regardless.  Often times the released bondservant(s) was to be given compensation, lifestock, grains, wine, etc…..upon their release.  Sometimes the bondservants became full employees after the debt was settled and began earning a wage (if they chose to stay on board).  Sometimes bondservants chose to stay with the family they worked off debt for and continue the bondservitude after the debt was satisfied because they developed such a strong relationship with the family they owed a debt to.  Sometimes females bondservants became spouses of the owners or the owner's children (marriages were arranged) and as was customary the owner would pay out a brideprice to the bondservants family.   Within the year of jubilee many, many bondservants were released from their service regardless of time served or amount of debt repaid.

And yes sometimes the bondservants' performance or behavior was inappropriate and they were punished for it.   Although, the laws for bondservants didn't condone the capricious beating of the bondservant, the laws were meant to discourage that behavior on behalf of the owner.  If owner did something as vile as murder a bondservant then that owner lost their life.   Everyone quotes the scripture “if the owner beats the slave and slave recovers after 3 days……then all is good”.   This circumstance was simply an exception, not the norm, but the laws were meant to govern all circumstances both the good and the bad.  If the bondservant was beaten to a point in which they could not work they were supposed to be freed.  The debtholder/owner was engaged in a contract with the bondservant and that bondservant was deemed property, but human property for the purposes of sweat equity for debt repayment that retained rights and privileges and just treatment.  The owner was outlawed from ruling over the bondservant like a tyrant….that was not permitted.  Did they work some of these folks hard?  Sure.   Was that hard work intended to be cruel and brutal and relentless and unreasonable?  LOL no….that’s a fiction inferred by ignorant readers.

God’s ultimate goal was to lead Israel away from the practice of using bondservants altogether.  The Lord works within the confines of our lives drawing us closer to him and away from the adopted practices of our hardened hearts that we freely choose to engage in.  Regardless, the Lord is patient and will allow our free choices and some our less than desirable customs to be honored with the intention of leading us away from those practices.   The use of bondservants is not the preference of the Lord though.  Bondservants were also meant to respect their owners.  Remember, some of the bondservants were working off a debt based a crime they committted against the family that held their contract for debt repayment.  As I’ve said time and again on this topic it is completely illogical that God would free the Israelites from the brutal, forced slavery in Egypt and then allow them to engage in that same behavior among the people of their own nation.    Folks will simply say “well, that’s a biblical contradiction” LOL……sorry, no.  That’s ignorance on part of the critic that has done little more than a surface reading of the scripture.  When I first read the these scriptures I was SHOCKED, but then I dug in deeper and understood the culture of the Isaelites, the culture of the pagan nations, learned some of the Hebrew terms and the definitely gained insight on the context…..makes all the difference.

Now I know I wrote all of this and some will just reply with “b.s.” or “keep polishing that turd” or whatever other witty retort they can think of; regardless, I hope this was at least helpful.  I've learned that some religious objectors love their canned objections so much that they refuse to accept resolution when it's presented....I'm helpless to do anything about that.  Most people won't even read this.

Appreciate the thoughtful reply. I did read it all, and you've clearly come to terms with the issue. Still bothers me that God would work "within the confines of our lives" in this instance, but not in others. I mean, He's not the mayor, afterall; He's the supreme moral end-all. His wrath is evident throughout the OT, ordering slaughter left and right for immorality/Godlessness, but here he plays nice. Unless you were a slave/servant, of course.

I find Him inconsistent, at best.

But thanks again.