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Getbig Main Boards => General Topics => Topic started by: body88 on July 26, 2006, 09:02:28 PM
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If a car is around 46 grand new. How much is a good opening negotiation bid? What I mean is how low should I shoot below my real figure I would pay?
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If a car is around 46 grand new. How much is a good opening negotiation bid? What I mean is how low should I shoot below my real figure I would pay?
private sale or dealership?
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Dealership. I have been getting qoutes online (carfax) for my arsenal against the seller. I need a good low (to low) price to start from. The car is in the high 40's.
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I would ask around and find out what they have in it.What I mean is ,for example,if it ia a chevrolet,then GM employees get a discount,and I just about guarentee the price they get is the absolute lowest the dealer can go...Don't know what you are looking at,but If it is american then you should be able to find SOMEONE who works for them that could find out.I would think that all of the big 3 have an employee discount
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try a couple of web sites NADA or Edmouns.com to get a idea of what the car sells for in your area then email the dealer to ask for the pricing sheet showing all the cost and then run a check online to see how much they market it up. you can nowadays do almost all your hard nose back and forth online and have a price exactly done before you walk into a dealer.The more you know the less they dick with you.
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I would ask around and find out what they have in it.What I mean is ,for example,if it ia a chevrolet,then GM employees get a discount,and I just about guarentee the price they get is the absolute lowest the dealer can go...Don't know what you are looking at,but If it is american then you should be able to find SOMEONE who works for them that could find out.I would think that all of the big 3 have an employee discount
Euro.... But I do know a girl that works at BWM. Thanks for the tip.
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try a couple of web sites NADA or Edmouns.com to get a idea of what the car sells for in your area then email the dealer to ask for the pricing sheet showing all the cost and then run a check online to see how much they market it up. you can nowadays do almost all your hard nose back and forth online and have a price exactly done before you walk into a dealer.The more you know the less they dick with you.
I got a couple qoutes so far. I will try these sites. Thanks for the tip on the pricing sheet.
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If a car is around 46 grand new. How much is a good opening negotiation bid? What I mean is how low should I shoot below my real figure I would pay?
www.carmax.com
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Kelly Blue Book
http://www.kbb.com/
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Thanks guys. I just found out the evolution 9 is coming out in a month and a half so I am going to hold of till I can drive the little monster. It is between that and the new m3. But the new evo is supposed to be insane. Lighter with more horses than the old(the new one will have over 300. The old was 290). 18 grand less than the m3 two : ) I was looking at a jet black m3. They wanted just under 50 for it. Only thing is real wheel drive is a pain around here. The new evo will be around 36 grand. Sick cars. ( I am into road racing cars, not a drag guy)
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Body, do your homework on msnauto, kelly, and edmunds. Talk to others who have the same vehicle or similar. Get an idea of what the car should really be sold for and then offer a bit less. Do NOT get caught up in the "how much do you want to spend a month" game. Do NOT get emotional over a particular car, there will be many others to choose from. DO searches online for the car and if possible contact the dealer through their internet sales person. For some reason that person can get you a better price. DO search dealers within a 50 mile radius of your home if not more. The extra effort put in is worth it. When it comes time to negotiate ALWAYS be prepared to walk out if you don't get your way.
Just did a deal on a vehicle a few months ago. My wife had run out and negotiated without me. I did the homework as stated above and when we went there together and I got involved, the deal was renogiated 3x in one morning. first with the sales guy, then the after sales finance manager, and finally when I told them to shove it up their ass we were chased to the parking lot and offered to speak with the GM of the dealership. In 10 minutes he was at MY price.
Probably the most important thing to remember out of all of this is that you cannot get emotional over a particular car on the lot. Good luck and remember that the car buying experience is usually not a fun one after the test drive is over.
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Body, do your homework on msnauto, kelly, and edmunds. Talk to others who have the same vehicle or similar. Get an idea of what the car should really be sold for and then offer a bit less. Do NOT get caught up in the "how much do you want to spend a month" game. Do NOT get emotional over a particular car, there will be many others to choose from. DO searches online for the car and if possible contact the dealer through their internet sales person. For some reason that person can get you a better price. DO search dealers within a 50 mile radius of your home if not more. The extra effort put in is worth it. When it comes time to negotiate ALWAYS be prepared to walk out if you don't get your way.
Just did a deal on a vehicle a few months ago. My wife had run out and negotiated without me. I did the homework as stated above and when we went there together and I got involved, the deal was renogiated 3x in one morning. first with the sales guy, then the after sales finance manager, and finally when I told them to shove it up their ass we were chased to the parking lot and offered to speak with the GM of the dealership. In 10 minutes he was at MY price.
Probably the most important thing to remember out of all of this is that you cannot get emotional over a particular car on the lot. Good luck and remember that the car buying experience is usually not a fun one after the test drive is over.
Thanks man. Any advice on a car that has not even been released yet. The one I want (above) comes out in q few months or so. They might try to get leverege on me since it will be very rare. How much did you save on your deal. What is resonable to expect off the sticker?
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Here's the deal on buying something that has never been out yet. They are going to jack that price way over invoice. Unfortunately it's very tough to negotiate on something if the car goes "hot" and they are looking at more buyers than the norm. My advice in this case would be to wait until the hype dies down on the car. Could be a few months, could be a bit longer, depends on the demand.
I'm doing that right now on the new mustang design. Dealers here are still raping people for the higher end GTs, Cobras, and various dealer named performance packages. So, I'm biding my time. In the end I will get what I want at a fair price.
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Here's the deal on buying something that has never been out yet. They are going to jack that price way over invoice. Unfortunately it's very tough to negotiate on something if the car goes "hot" and they are looking at more buyers than the norm. My advice in this case would be to wait until the hype dies down on the car. Could be a few months, could be a bit longer, depends on the demand.
I'm doing that right now on the new mustang design. Dealers here are still raping people for the higher end GTs, Cobras, and various dealer named performance packages. So, I'm biding my time. In the end I will get what I want at a fair price.
good advice can be applied to pussy as well.. ;D
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Ya there will be alot of demand for the new evo x. They are very sought after.
Only thing in my favor is they are almost 40 grand. making them to expensive for alot of people who want them.
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good advice can be applied to pussy as well.. ;D
;D ;D
Ya there will be alot of demand for the new evo x. They are very sought after.
Only thing in my favor is they are almost 40 grand. making them to expensive for alot of people who want them.
Don't expect that to be in your favor. Just because the price is higher does not mean there won't be buyers. Just means that the dealers will be expecting the buyers they have coming in to be able to afford the overpricing.
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;D ;D
Don't expect that to be in your favor. Just because the price is higher does not mean there won't be buyers. Just means that the dealers will be expecting the buyers they have coming in to be able to afford the overpricing.
True :-[
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Really the best time to purchase is at the end of the year. Right before new years. Reason being is the dealers will be taking offers to get rid of the car before they have to pay taxes on it.
At that point you have a lil more barganing power. But for an opening bid $46,000 car, I personally would start at 40k and tgo from there. Also have something for trade in and a lil cash in hand, yet more leverage for ya.
You can work anything out, just have to be firm with them and dont back down....Aso doesnt hurt to have good credit too.....
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Good point! Know your credit score before you walk in. That's another tactic. Telling you your credit is not that good and that they can only get you such and such percent on the loan. Usually you can find a loan % cheaper. does not seem like a big deal when they keep reverting back to payments per month, but don't get caught up in that. Quickly do the math, have a calculator with you. a few percent here and there and you're overpaying thousands on a deal number you just busted your ass negotiating to.
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Trade ins and cash in hand...
Cash is always king, that goes without saying. The more you have to put in the dealers pocket at the point of sale the more apt they are to bend on the price.
Trade ins is another shell game to get involved with. do your research on your vehicle before you trade it. Know what your car is worth, not just what its worth if you sell it on the street, but what it's worth to trade it in (less than the street price normally, but you're kind of paying for the convenience of dumping it on the dealer).
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My trade in is worth 26 k according to the blue book. I have about 6 grand to put down.
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Let’s get real here. If you are buying an M3 you don’t care about money.
I have a 328 and have been in an M3 many times. Although I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the driving experience, I can honestly say if I had it to do over again, I would not buy this car.
• it’s too small (basically a two seater). As you know there is a backseat but it’s too small to carry anything more than a few groceries. When I bought this car I thought I led a two seater lifestyle. I don’t. I don’t have kids but I still need more room for my life (friends, equipment, surfboards, bicycles, stuff) than this car offers.
• the noise (wind, tire) is unacceptable. The noise is something you may not notice during test drives because your attention will be on other things (driving experience, handling, etc.), but it is bad. Better than my previous car but still quite bad.
The seals around the door are different in the sedan than in the coupe (so the sedan is quieter) but I don’t think the M3 comes in a sedan version and who would want an M3 in a sedan anyway? Even in the sedan the wheel noise is bad.
Have you considered the V8 version of the CLK?
If you are determined to get a BMW, you might want to look into a 330 with a Dinan upgrade. Not every BMW dealer is authorized to perform this upgrade but you can buy the car from one dealer and have the upgrade performed at a different dealership.
For the price of an M3 you can get a one year old (or in some cases a new) 5 series which provides a much richer (and quieter) driving experience. My ex had V8 5 series and that is the car to own if you can afford it. If you’re on a budget get a V6 5 series instead.
If this post is at all related to your other post about high end audio systems for your car don’t worry. Just get the premium audio option on your BMW and you’ll be quite happy. There’s no need to spring for anything beyond that.
Finally, remember that there are about 4-6 different factory seats you can have installed in your Bmer. Try to sample as many of them as you can and then make a choice rather than just taking the ones that come with your package (sport, winter, etc.)
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End of year purchasing...another great point and actually one I would recommend with any new vehicle that is a design change, complete overhaul, or brand new design. Why run to buy the first year of a new model when you know that there will be bugs that need fixing etc. Wait it out. let the manufacturer prove that the first year out of the box is trouble free. the second and third year of a new model usually have upgrades and bug fixes that the mfg. realized after year one. If you keep tabs on the car and see that there are no glaring problems etc. for the first model year, then go towards the end of the year (Fall) and bang out a deal as they are already starting to release the second year of the car.
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Yea those where a few of my main beefs witht he m3. Biggest one being the winters out here are brutal. That is why I am waiting for the new evo to come out before I buy anything. It is 16 grand less than a new m3 also. Just as fast if not faster. The m3 is well a m3. Bad ass car no doubt.
Thanks for the advice.
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Trade ins and cash in hand...
Cash is always king, that goes without saying. The more you have to put in the dealers pocket at the point of sale the more apt they are to bend on the price.
I disagree. That used to be true (and perhaps still is) when you finance the car through the dealership’s financing arm but these days most people bring their own financing (bank, credit union, etc.) so the dealer gets all the cash for the car up front. Any financing issues/problems you may have down the road is between you and your bank—not the dealership.
They already got all the cash up front from your bank so dealerships no longer have an incentive to negotiate based on how much cash you are personally putting down. :(
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Yea those where a few of my main beefs witht he m3. Biggest one being the winters out here are brutal. That is why I am waiting for the new evo to come out before I buy anything. It is 16 grand less than a new m3 also. Just as fast if not faster. The m3 is well a m3. Bad ass car no doubt.
Thanks for the advice.
As you know Bmers are real wheel drive. Obviously, you'll want the stability control option if you live where it snows. I've only owned mine in CA and FL so that has never been a concern for me. You really should be having this discussion over at car and driver. Participants in the forums there will give you much better advice than anything you can get on a bodybuilding board.
http://www.caranddriver.com/idealbb/
Post in the Pure Luxury and Sports and GT Cars forums for Bmer talk. :)
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I disagree. That used to be true (and perhaps still is) when you finance the car through the dealership’s financing arm but these days most people bring their own financing (bank, credit union, etc.) so the dealer gets all the cash for the car up front. Any financing issues/problems you may have down the road is between you and your bank—not the dealership.
They already got all the cash up front from your bank so dealerships no longer have an incentive to negotiate based on how much cash you are personally putting down. :(
Then we agree to disagree ;D From what I've experienced many people still do finance through the dealerships assorted banks. The whole sales process is geared that way. Unless you are on top of your game, many do not even think to go get financing outside of the dealership. And it's for that reason that cash is still king.
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As an aside. The entire new car buying process actually sucks. It's something that you only do a handfull of times or so in a lifetime, and it's for that reason that so many people get scalped in the first place :( Unprepared for the vigors of negotiation, lack of research, and falling in love with something particular. Combine that with commission hungry salespeople, finance people etc. and you have a recipe for disaster.
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As an insight...My first job out of the Army was selling cars. I've seen it from the other side and unfortunatly been a part of it first hand. True its been many years since then and thankfully I changed course and got out of it ages ago, but from my experience selling them and as a buyer of cars for myself, 2 wives and even my parents, I think I've got a good idea of the information I'm sharing here.
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Yea those where a few of my main beefs witht he m3. Biggest one being the winters out here are brutal. That is why I am waiting for the new evo to come out before I buy anything. It is 16 grand less than a new m3 also. Just as fast if not faster. The m3 is well a m3. Bad ass car no doubt.
Thanks for the advice.
Yes, the M3 is rear wheel drive but it also has traction control and a limited slip system that will prevent excessive tire spin, it also has a relatively understressed engine.
The new Evo while 4 wheel drive it is also turbocharged and EXTREMELY high strung. The tires will be essentially street racing tires and the engine won't produce any power or torque below 3,000 RPM and after that the power will hit like a bomb.
As high strung and one purposed as the new Evo will be it won't be good in the city with snow and ice on the ground. I would bet the M3 will on par with or easier to drive in the city in the winter than the Evo.
And don't forget that Mitsubishi builds garbage, their quality control is not on par with other Japanese automakers.
While the Evo's are cool and they perform incredibly they aren't M3's. The M3 is a whole different class of automobile with a luxurious interior and excellent build quality.
To me the difference between an M3 and an Evo is a no brainer. If cost is your only concern shop around, there are plenty of M3's in our area and plenty of dealers. Hell, buy one that's a year old and save yourself $10,000.
If excessive wind or tire roar were a problem for you in the M3 they are only going to be magnified even more in the Evo. Mitsubishi is not a quality automobile manufacturer.
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As an insight...My first job out of the Army was selling cars. I've seen it from the other side and unfortunatly been a part of it first hand. True its been many years since then and thankfully I changed course and got out of it ages ago, but from my experience selling them and as a buyer of cars for myself, 2 wives and even my parents, I think I've got a good idea of the information I'm sharing here.
im looking for a 68 camero super sport in black any help? ;D
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im looking for a 68 camero super sport in black any help? ;D
Start here... http://www.hemmings.com/
;)
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Yes, the M3 is rear wheel drive but it also has traction control and a limited slip system that will prevent excessive tire spin, it also has a relatively understressed engine.
The new Evo while 4 wheel drive it is also turbocharged and EXTREMELY high strung. The tires will be essentially street racing tires and the engine won't produce any power or torque below 3,000 RPM and after that the power will hit like a bomb.
As high strung and one purposed as the new Evo will be it won't be good in the city with snow and ice on the ground. I would bet the M3 will on par with or easier to drive in the city in the winter than the Evo.
And don't forget that Mitsubishi builds garbage, their quality control is not on par with other Japanese automakers.
While the Evo's are cool and they perform incredibly they aren't M3's. The M3 is a whole different class of automobile with a luxurious interior and excellent build quality.
To me the difference between an M3 and an Evo is a no brainer. If cost is your only concern shop around, there are plenty of M3's in our area and plenty of dealers. Hell, buy one that's a year old and save yourself $10,000.
If excessive wind or tire roar were a problem for you in the M3 they are only going to be magnified even more in the Evo. Mitsubishi is not a quality automobile manufacturer.
Thanks for the points.I am going to have to disagree tho. My buddys m3 is absolutly awful in the snow. Traction control and limited slip difs dont do shit in legit snow or ice. I have a friend who has an evo mr. Loves the thing. When I drove it I thought it was great. It is also 16 thousand less than a m3. Cost is not a huge deal. But I am not spending over 45 grand. The new evo looks amazing. I have to see it before I make the descision. The car is based on a rally car. Snow tires or not it will ride better in the snow than a m3. I owned a 3 series with "traction control" a few years back. The thing was horrendus in the snow. I can only imagine the m3 with the sport tires and wheels. I do love that car tho. I am still looking at the nissan z track edition also.
It is really between the track edition z and the new evo x. The m3 is a consideration. But to be honest I do not feel like spending 50 grand. I want a brand new ride. No pre owned this time.
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Thanks for the points.I am going to have to disagree tho. My buddys m3 is absolutly awful in the snow. Traction control and limited slip difs dont do shit in legit snow or ice. I have a friend who has an evo mr. Loves the thing. When I drove it I thought it was great. It is also 16 thousand less than a m3. Cost is not a huge deal. But I am not spending over 45 grand. The new evo looks amazing. I have to see it before I make the descision. The car is based on a rally car. Snow tires or not it will ride better in the snow than a m3. I owned a 3 series with "traction control" a few years back. The thing was horrendus in the snow. I can only imagine the m3 with the sport tires and wheels. I do love that car tho. I am still looking at the nissan z track edition also.
It is really between the track edition z and the new evo x. The m3 is a consideration. But to be honest I do not feel like spending 50 grand. I want a brand new ride. No pre owned this time.
I love how polite you were in disagreeing with me. LOL
I must admit I've never driven an EVO but I've heard horror stories about them. I've driven many M3's and always loved them, they're not the fastest cars in the world but they were incredibly fun to drive. Depending on how you drive any car can be a bear in the snow and ice, tires make a huge difference so does starting out in 2nd gear from a stop. Do you have experience driving the EVO in snow and ice? Have you been in the car when the turbo hit and the roads were slippery? Admittedly 4 wheel drive is a beautiful thing but the EVO can be a handful, again this isn't firsthand knowledge just what I've read and gleamed from talking to people.
A few things to think about, resale value and cost of ownership. Let's say you keep the car 2 years. What will a 2 year old M3 that is coming to the end of it's warranty be worth and what will a 2 year old EVO that is coming to the end of it's warranty be worth?
The cost of repair on EVO's has historically been high, one of the reasons is that they are driven so hard but another is that they are powered by small turbocharged engines that are highly stressed. And I've heard about horror stories of Mitsubishi not honoring their warranties for a number of reasons. If you do any kind of autocross racing (what the EVO is built for) Mitsubishi will not honor the warranty.
Cost of ownership I would put at about even between the two, maybe a little higher for the EVO but probably not by much.
How much value have two year old M3's and EVO's lost?
I like the 350Z's but don't love them, I think they're underpowered and I'm not a huge fan of the wedge shape. I prefer the Infiniti version better, it's not as hardcore a driver but I think it's better looking.
Sorry for the long post.
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No no, I appreciate all the knowledge. You seem to know alot about cars. I just got back from driving the 350 z "track" edition. Have you seen it? Very nice. But I do agree. It is underpowered. To be honest I drove a brand new wrx sti and although it was ugly as sin, the thing would murder a 350 in a road race. The z is out.
I have not had experience with a evo mr in the snow. but have driven them. The only beef i had was the car was its blah interior. But with the new evo x coming out it has been completely redone from the ground up. including now over 300 horses with less total weight. All the moans and groans on the evo have apparently been addressed. I cannot say for certain this car will live up to all the hype but I have to wait until it comes out so I can see. It is due for US release in easily oct.
The m3 is just that an m3. Nuff said! Wonderful car. But to get a new one I am going to have to drop 50k. The weather is so shitty out here I do not know if I can hack the rwd.
You think the infiniti is a better buy than the z? Any advice on cars in that demographic (m3,evo,z) would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Also here are some shots of the new evo x.
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The M3 is an expensive toy and that’s all it is. Use it as such—in good weather. If you need a vehicle that can handle snow and ice you need to have a second vehicle or you need to buy a different car entirely. With few exceptions Bmers should be purchased with the sport package. If you need the winter package you really need access to a second (winter ready) car.
It doesn’t sound like an M3 is compatible with your lifestyle (annual snow and ice). :-\
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The M3 is an expensive toy and that’s all it is. Use it as such—in good weather. If you need a vehicle that can handle snow and ice you need to have a second vehicle or you need to buy a different car entirely. With few exceptions Bmers should be purchased with the sport package. If you need the winter package you really need access to a second (winter ready) car.
It doesn’t sound like an M3 is compatible with your lifestyle (annual snow and ice). :-\
Yes you are right. I would need a second car. That is my dilemma. I would not put a beauty of a new m3 through tire spinning sliding :-\ The weather here is good except for the 4 month winter. Tons of snow cold as hell.
The evo x is just as fast as the m, 14 less,handles just as good if not better and all wheel drive. Its not an m tho :( If you go to utube and enter evo vs gollardo you can see an evo m/r race and perform comparably with a gollardo
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My trade in is worth 26 k according to the blue book. I have about 6 grand to put down.
Instead of trading with the dealer, go to the nearest carmax and sell it to them. I was still financing a vehicle and my trade in was -$1,500.00 according to the dealer. Carmax paid the $1500.00 and I DID NOT buy a car from them. Took abaout 30 minutes with all the paperwork.
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You sound like a commercial for the Evo.
Almost as good as… BMW
Just as good as… BMW
Cheaper than… BMW
Better value than… BMW
And on and on…
You already know what the bottom line is: it’s not a BMW! There is a reason why competitors like to compare themselves to a BMW and you already know what it is so why play games with yourself? Maybe you need to own this car for a while to get it out of your system. I did and now I’m content to go back to a Honda or Toyota.
As for the Evo… why spend all that money to get a car that is an imitation of what you really want? That doesn’t make much sense to me. :-[
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Yes, the M3 is rear wheel drive but it also has traction control and a limited slip system that will prevent excessive tire spin, it also has a relatively understressed engine.
The new Evo while 4 wheel drive it is also turbocharged and EXTREMELY high strung. The tires will be essentially street racing tires and the engine won't produce any power or torque below 3,000 RPM and after that the power will hit like a bomb.
I would bet the M3 will on par with or easier to drive in the city in the winter than the Evo.
Mitsubishi is not a quality automobile manufacturer.
The M3 engine is not understressed, getting 300bhp+ from a little over 3 litres in a normally aspirated engine takes a fair ammount of skill from BMW....its the Evo's engine which is understressed, 300bhp from a 2 litre turbo is fuck all....they sell the Evo FQ400 in Britain with over 400bhp and full manufacturers warranty, rally teams tune them higher still.
As for driving in ice or snow, 4WD always trumps 2WD regardless of all the toys like traction control etc....2WD cars havent been used in rallying for decades, when it comes to ultimate control on slippery surfaces go for 4WD.
The lack of power before the turbo comes on boost is actually beneficial when driving in tricky conditions....you just keep the engine below 3000rpm and its as friendly and docile as can be, coupled with 4WD i'd take the Evo in snow anyday.
BMW may be percieved as a quality manufacturer but that depends on how you define quality?....is quality a solid build and luxury interior or is quality longevity and reliability?
In every motoring survey conducted in the UK for the last god knows how many years the jap cars have shown themselves to be the most reliable while the 'quality' german makes like BMW and Mercedes continue to slip down the rankings....
...however, they're both nice cars.
I'd take the BMW, more fun to be had with RWD...
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Thanks guys. I just found out the evolution 9 is coming out in a month and a half so I am going to hold of till I can drive the little monster. It is between that and the new m3. But the new evo is supposed to be insane. Lighter with more horses than the old(the new one will have over 300. The old was 290). 18 grand less than the m3 two : ) I was looking at a jet black m3. They wanted just under 50 for it. Only thing is real wheel drive is a pain around here. The new evo will be around 36 grand. Sick cars. ( I am into road racing cars, not a drag guy)
a friend of mine just bought an evo8 it is ok but if you are looking at something like that i would look at a sti my other buddie got one of those and stock to stock the sti is a little better. they are both really fun cars to drive i live in the mtns and we go out all the time the sti would kill the evo in a mtn course. just thought you should know
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The M3 engine is not understressed, getting 300bhp+ from a little over 3 litres in a normally aspirated engine takes a fair ammount of skill from BMW....its the Evo's engine which is understressed, 300bhp from a 2 litre turbo is f**k all....they sell the Evo FQ400 in Britain with over 400bhp and full manufacturers warranty, rally teams tune them higher still.
As for driving in ice or snow, 4WD always trumps 2WD regardless of all the toys like traction control etc....2WD cars havent been used in rallying for decades, when it comes to ultimate control on slippery surfaces go for 4WD.
The lack of power before the turbo comes on boost is actually beneficial when driving in tricky conditions....you just keep the engine below 3000rpm and its as friendly and docile as can be, coupled with 4WD i'd take the Evo in snow anyday.
BMW may be percieved as a quality manufacturer but that depends on how you define quality?....is quality a solid build and luxury interior or is quality longevity and reliability?
In every motoring survey conducted in the UK for the last god knows how many years the jap cars have shown themselves to be the most reliable while the 'quality' german makes like BMW and Mercedes continue to slip down the rankings....
...however, they're both nice cars.
I'd take the BMW, more fun to be had with RWD...
I'll take your last point first, typical Japanese manufactures (ie. Honda and Toyota) are considered better in regards to build quality than the big 3 German automakers. Mitsubishi is not a typical Japanese automaker. Mitsubishi is a third tier Japanese automaker, in fact they are on the verge of pulling out of the US all together. Compare Acura, Honda, Toyota and Lexus with Audi, BMW and Mercedes all you want but don't compare Mitsubishi with them. In fact, Mercedes has had many issues with build quality lately so they are a step below the big Japanese automakers.
Mitsubishi's build quality is not good. They are on par with the Chrysler family of cars. In fact I believe Chrysler might have a stake in Mitsubishi.
Did you really say that a 2.0 liter inline 4 putting out over 300 hp via turbocharging and intercooling isn't stressed? Are you serious? Yet you think a 3.3 liter inline 6 putting out roughly the same horsepower is stressed? LOL I'm not quite sure if you actually believe that or if you're just clueless.
100 horsepower per liter naturally aspirated is a good amount and twenty years ago it would have been an incredible amount, not today. The Evo puts out nearly 150 horsepower per liter via turbocharging which puts incredible stress on the engine yet you don't think it's stressed. I'm still a little shocked by that.
You're right about the 4wd trumping 2wd in the snow and ice but I still don't like the on/off nature of the Evo's engine regarding driving in dangerous conditions in a big city, where body lives. Although you're wrong about the benefits of way the engine produces power. The problem is that the power hits too suddenly as opposed to the constant stream of power that naturally aspirated engines produce.
If for example body were to mistakenly get into the powerband coming around a corner in the snow in the city he could slide too far and swipe parked cars which are everywhere in Boston.
Of course he could do the same in an M3 but he would be able to better modulate the power because of the way it comes on, which is smooth and steady. As far as handling goes considering the M3's rear wheel drive he'd be dealing with oversteer which can be controlled with the throttle.
If the Evo weren't turbocharged and it generated it's power through size and natural aspiration I wouldn't be posting any of this. The Evo would be the clear winner.
In fact I'm really looking for situations to be negative about with the Evo, 4 wheel drive is so much better in the snow and ice that it's not even debatable.
I don't really like Mitsubishi, I don't think they build quality.
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No no, I appreciate all the knowledge. You seem to know alot about cars. I just got back from driving the 350 z "track" edition. Have you seen it? Very nice. But I do agree. It is underpowered. To be honest I drove a brand new wrx sti and although it was ugly as sin, the thing would murder a 350 in a road race. The z is out.
I have not had experience with a evo mr in the snow. but have driven them. The only beef i had was the car was its blah interior. But with the new evo x coming out it has been completely redone from the ground up. including now over 300 horses with less total weight. All the moans and groans on the evo have apparently been addressed. I cannot say for certain this car will live up to all the hype but I have to wait until it comes out so I can see. It is due for US release in easily oct.
The m3 is just that an m3. Nuff said! Wonderful car. But to get a new one I am going to have to drop 50k. The weather is so shitty out here I do not know if I can hack the rwd.
You think the infiniti is a better buy than the z? Any advice on cars in that demographic (m3,evo,z) would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Also here are some shots of the new evo x.
body, I like the Infiniti's styling better but it's clearly a more sedate car. It's not a sports car. It's not really even a GT because it's so underpowered.
From what you've said in this thread I don't think you'd enjoy the Infiniti, too tame. In fact the M3 is tame compared to the Evo. The Evo is a single minded beast, it's nearly all conquering in it's single purpose but it's not that great as a daily driver. If you just want to have fun for a year or so and don't mind living without the luxurious touches you've enjoyed in the M3 then go for the Evo. It won't disappoint for a year, any longer than that and it will probably grow tiresome unless you have another car to use as a daily driver.
How about this, play with the Evo for 12 months keeping while taking excellent care of it and then trade it in. The new Evo looks pretty damn good and you know it's going to run like a race car.
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I'll take your last point first, typical Japanese manufactures (ie. Honda and Toyota) are considered better in regards to build quality than the big 3 German automakers. Mitsubishi is not a typical Japanese automaker. Mitsubishi is a third tier Japanese automaker, in fact they are on the verge of pulling out of the US all together. Compare Acura, Honda, Toyota and Lexus with Audi, BMW and Mercedes all you want but don't compare Mitsubishi with them. In fact, Mercedes has had many issues with build quality lately so they are a step below the big Japanese automakers.
Mitsubishi's build quality is not good. They are on par with the Chrysler family of cars. In fact I believe Chrysler might have a stake in Mitsubishi.
I agree. :(
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I think the picture of that car is orgasmic.
That being said, start a spreadsheet right now so you can quickly assemble a list of averages for your negotiations. And don't be afraid to walk and try more dealerships in your state. And, check ebay. Find someone in a jam, someone who made a mistake, etc. Every car I've ever owned, I have fallen into a good situation, where somone was too old to drive, just inherited a new one, etc, and I got them for less than market value. Good luck!
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If a car is around 46 grand new. How much is a good opening negotiation bid? What I mean is how low should I shoot below my real figure I would pay?
Good luck.
The old sticker price. All I can say is take your quotes, average them out and if it's lower than their MSRP let that be your "I'm out the door" price if they can't hit it,but don't start negotiations with your max.limit. Go a little under because they might/will hit you with that "your here" "we're here" "let's meet somewhere in between" speech....let your average be your limit and be prepared to walk if they don't hit it for you.
If you have documented quotes from online, a good sales manager MIGHT try to honor that to get another sale out the door so bring them with you. It depends though. If you have an old school GREASE sales manager he's probably a hard a$$ and take you asking for a lower MSRP personally. An educated mofo would see the business side and try to work something out. I've dealt with both when I used to sell rides.
Try to go at the end of the month. Those bastards have a quota to hit. Rainy days are good also. Some sales managers compete amongst themselves, a sales manager that can "get out" 10-15 cars on a rainy day will give your agent better numbers to close deals just to brag to the GM that he got out 10 - 15 rides on a rainy day and the other sales managers can't get that out on dry days.
Other lines you might here. If it's a 46,000 car "what price where you expecting!" "You are paying for quality and luxury here" "the numbers you show don't include: shipping: railway/trucking, Lot fee's for storing vehicle...etc,etc"
I had some time to waste 5 years ago and some money in the bank, so I decided to experiment with car sales to see the in/outs(seriously my girlfriend thought I was nuts...LOL). I have to say it was pretty interesting to say the least. Pays well once you get on a roll though. Once pulled in almost 3 grand for two days work once. Paid off though. I bought my car in like record 30 min off the truck. No hassle. Told family members exactly word for word what was going to go down on deals ....and my little brother actually is a very successful salesman now for Nissan.
Oh yeah, if they do go down...tell them mofo's you want that to include tax,title and "fees" lol they will LOVE that one.
Go get em!
good luck man.
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if you're not set on what car you're going to buy, i'd suggest looking at audis.
audi S4 06 sport sedan should be in your price range, and it has plenty of horses, which iirc, come online quicker than even the M3s'. handles really well, but kind of a gas guzzler . . . only drawback.
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a friend of mine just bought an evo8 it is ok but if you are looking at something like that i would look at a sti my other buddie got one of those and stock to stock the sti is a little better. they are both really fun cars to drive i live in the mtns and we go out all the time the sti would kill the evo in a mtn course. just thought you should know
Thanks man. How did your buddy get an evo 8? Are they out in other countries? I drove the sti. Loved it. But it is ugly as sin :-[
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I think the picture of that car is orgasmic.
That being said, start a spreadsheet right now so you can quickly assemble a list of averages for your negotiations. And don't be afraid to walk and try more dealerships in your state. And, check ebay. Find someone in a jam, someone who made a mistake, etc. Every car I've ever owned, I have fallen into a good situation, where somone was too old to drive, just inherited a new one, etc, and I got them for less than market value. Good luck!
I know right the thing looks bad ass. Thanks for the advice. Any tips on how not to get scamed on ebay? I plan top buy all the audio goodies I will put in it from that site. Never used the site before. Thanks for the help man appreciate it.
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if you're not set on what car you're going to buy, i'd suggest looking at audis.
audi S4 06 sport sedan should be in your price range, and it has plenty of horses, which iirc, come online quicker than even the M3s'. handles really well, but kind of a gas guzzler . . . only drawback.
Did not think of the s. Will drive one soon. Thanks for the tip!
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Good luck.
The old sticker price. All I can say is take your quotes, average them out and if it's lower than their MSRP let that be your "I'm out the door" price if they can't hit it,but don't start negotiations with your max.limit. Go a little under because they might/will hit you with that "your here" "we're here" "let's meet somewhere in between" speech....let your average be your limit and be prepared to walk if they don't hit it for you.
If you have documented quotes from online, a good sales manager MIGHT try to honor that to get another sale out the door so bring them with you. It depends though. If you have an old school GREASE sales manager he's probably a hard a$$ and take you asking for a lower MSRP personally. An educated mofo would see the business side and try to work something out. I've dealt with both when I used to sell rides.
Try to go at the end of the month. Those bastards have a quota to hit. Rainy days are good also. Some sales managers compete amongst themselves, a sales manager that can "get out" 10-15 cars on a rainy day will give your agent better numbers to close deals just to brag to the GM that he got out 10 - 15 rides on a rainy day and the other sales managers can't get that out on dry days.
Other lines you might here. If it's a 46,000 car "what price where you expecting!" "You are paying for quality and luxury here" "the numbers you show don't include: shipping: railway/trucking, Lot fee's for storing vehicle...etc,etc"
I had some time to waste 5 years ago and some money in the bank, so I decided to experiment with car sales to see the in/outs(seriously my girlfriend thought I was nuts...LOL). I have to say it was pretty interesting to say the least. Pays well once you get on a roll though. Once pulled in almost 3 grand for two days work once. Paid off though. I bought my car in like record 30 min off the truck. No hassle. Told family members exactly word for word what was going to go down on deals ....and my little brother actually is a very successful salesman now for Nissan.
Oh yeah, if they do go down...tell them mofo's you want that to include tax,title and "fees" lol they will LOVE that one.
Go get em!
good luck man.
These are some good tips! Thanks bro!
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body, I like the Infiniti's styling better but it's clearly a more sedate car. It's not a sports car. It's not really even a GT because it's so underpowered.
From what you've said in this thread I don't think you'd enjoy the Infiniti, too tame. In fact the M3 is tame compared to the Evo. The Evo is a single minded beast, it's nearly all conquering in it's single purpose but it's not that great as a daily driver. If you just want to have fun for a year or so and don't mind living without the luxurious touches you've enjoyed in the M3 then go for the Evo. It won't disappoint for a year, any longer than that and it will probably grow tiresome unless you have another car to use as a daily driver.
How about this, play with the Evo for 12 months keeping while taking excellent care of it and then trade it in. The new Evo looks pretty damn good and you know it's going to run like a race car.
Good idea. I love this damn evo tho!
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Mitsubishi is a third tier Japanese automaker,
Did you really say that a 2.0 liter inline 4 putting out over 300 hp via turbocharging and intercooling isn't stressed? Are you serious? Yet you think a 3.3 liter inline 6 putting out roughly the same horsepower is stressed? LOL I'm not quite sure if you actually believe that or if you're just clueless.
You're right about the 4wd trumping 2wd in the snow and ice but I still don't like the on/off nature of the Evo's engine regarding driving in dangerous conditions in a big city, where body lives. Although you're wrong about the benefits of way the engine produces power. The problem is that the power hits too suddenly as opposed to the constant stream of power that naturally aspirated engines produce.
As far as handling goes considering the M3's rear wheel drive he'd be dealing with oversteer which can be controlled with the throttle.
Mitsubishi may not be on the same tier as Toyota and Honda but time and again they are showing up european manufacturers reliability faults.
And yes, i did say Mitsubishis engine is less stressed than BMWs normally aspirated engine....how stressed an engine is depends on how hard its having to work to make the power....the Evo is making all of its power at a not unreasonable 6500rpm, thats easy...relaxed even....turbocharging has long been seen as the easy way to big power. Compare that with the M3 which makes its power at 7900rpm, nearly 8000rpm!!....yeah, thats an understressed engine alright ::).....how long do you think a 3 litre angine will last for being taken to 8000rpm?
I'm not wrong about how a turbo delivers its power....having run a turbo in the past it was very easy to drive off boost when the weather dictated or when i felt like being a cheapskate with fuel....you can even take a turbocharged car to the red line without the turbo boosting if you do it slowly and feather the throttle....likewise you can make it come in earlier than expected with heavy use of the throttle, its not set rigidly at 3500rpm.
Lastly, you can control an Evos handling with the throttle...in fact you can control any cars handling with the throttle!....not just a RWD one. Even though the Evo is 4WD its not a 50/50 front/rear split....on most of these jap rally cars the bias is 40/60 between front and rear, giving a slight RWD bias....some of the limited edition Evos and Subarus have a dial on the dash where you can adjust the percentage between front/rear if you want.
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....just to spice up the thread a bit with some quality m3 pictures..... ;)
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I love the m3. It will always be one of the best cars ever. Imo and amongst car guys and girls like all of us in this thread. I like American muscle. I like all cars in fact. but there is nothing like a fast nimble, handling car!
here is the evo again and the s4
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And yes, i did say Mitsubishis engine is less stressed than BMWs normally aspirated engine....how stressed an engine is depends on how hard its having to work to make the power....the Evo is making all of its power at a not unreasonable 6500rpm, thats easy...relaxed even....turbocharging has long been seen as the easy way to big power. Compare that with the M3 which makes its power at 7900rpm, nearly 8000rpm!!....yeah, thats an understressed engine alright ::).....how long do you think a 3 litre angine will last for being taken to 8000rpm?
I'm not wrong about how a turbo delivers its power....having run a turbo in the past it was very easy to drive off boost when the weather dictated or when i felt like being a cheapskate with fuel....you can even take a turbocharged car to the red line without the turbo boosting if you do it slowly and feather the throttle....likewise you can make it come in earlier than expected with heavy use of the throttle, its not set rigidly at 3500rpm.
Look at your reasoning, you're saying that a 3.3 liter inline 6 producing 100 hp per liter is stressed because it's redline is 8,000 RPM yet a 2.0 liter inline 4 producing 150 hp per liter isn't stressed because it's turbocharged and because it's redline is 6,500 RPM.
Do you understand the stress a turbocharger puts on an engine? Do you understand the amount of heat turbochargers generate? Do you understand that heavily turbocharged engines have higher compression ratios and that puts more stress on the engine? Do you know what a LPT is? It's a Light Pressure Turbo and do you know why automobile manufacturers built LPT's? They built them so that their engines would be more reliable and less stress would be put on the engine.
Here is a quote from a magazine that tested the Evo "But it's the poster child for turbo lag; below 2500 RPM it has all the gusto of a self-propelled lawnmower. The show starts at 3500 RPM when the turbo springs to life and all hell breaks loose. Three words of advice: Hang on tight."
As I mentioned in my last post there could be times when someone driving the Evo gets into the boost when they're not prepared for the onslaught of power. Yes, you could drive all day using 1/16th throttle and never get into the turbo but who would drive like that?
The Evo is a fantastic car but to say that it's engine isn't stressed is laughable. There's a reason Mitsubishi is fighting not to honor their warranties in the US and it's not because that engine is so reliable.
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I love the m3. It will always be one of the best cars ever. Imo and amongst car guys and girls like all of us in this thread. I like American muscle. I like all cars in fact. but there is nothing like a fast nimble, handling car!
here is the evo again and the s4
body, S4's are very nice, certainly on par with M3's but they're also very very expensive. There are a few versions of the S4 and they are all super expsensive. You had sticker shock over the M3 wait until you see the stickers on the S4's.
Car and Driver just did a piece on an S4 and it's sticker was $70,000.
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Thanks man. Not so much sticker shock for the m3. I just do not want to spend over 50 grand. Since I am also going to add a nice audio system and a few performance goodies to the mix. The s4 is overpriced after looking at it. nice engine but to plain jane for me. The new evo x is said to be mitsu's turning point car. Supposed to have all the things the old one did not. Guess I will have to wait to see when it comes out.
I was very surprised at the new z to say the least. I drove the top of the line fully loaded one. All the track options the whole nine. The car itself is drop dead gorgeous. forged 19s in the rear and 18s up front. Low and wide. But the engine was honestly wimpy. I drove an sti for kicks the day before. Mash the throttle in any gear and the thing instantly blew up with power. really is to bad it is ugly as shit. That car right there is one fast ride. The diff options are great to. You can lock power to be almost fully rear wheel sent. Or send it all the way up front. As well as the all wheel drive that made them famous. The z was sluggish. I am a big turbo fan unless the naturally aspirated engine has big power. Just funner to drive IMO.
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bump
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Car and Driver just did a piece on an S4 and it's sticker was $70,000.
think that might have been the 07 RS4, which is a monster of a car.
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Here is what you need....chic magnet.
(http://mud.mm-a8.yimg.com/image/2924764145)
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think that might have been the 07 RS4, which is a monster of a car.
Yes that thing is a beast. To much cake tho!
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Here is what you need....chic magnet.
(http://mud.mm-a8.yimg.com/image/2924764145)
Lol..... The funniest thing about this post you made is. I was just looking at my parents photo albums ( at my father place to visit). And there is a picture of my mom when she was young and I swear she had that car in green. No joke. Is that a maverick/pento or whatever its called lol.
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Lol..... The funniest thing about this post you made is. I was just looking at my parents photo albums ( at my father place to visit). And there is a picture of my mom when she was young and I swear she had that car in green. No joke. Is that a maverick/pento or whatever its called lol.
No, not a maverick or a pinto...EVEN BETTER...It is an A.M.C. GREMLIN. hahahaha
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lolz.... All it needs is some drag tires and rust.... Comb out your mullet BROTHER we are going for a ride.
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lolz.... All it needs is some drag tires and rust.... Comb out your mullet BROTHER we are going for a ride.
"That shit will buff out..." Joe Dirt
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so what did you get?
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Still looking. I really like the evo mr..... Thing is an absolute monster on the track. I drove a ton of cars. I am still trying to decide.
I am going to bring my digi next round of test drives to take some shots for this thread.
Do you guys think getting a car for invoice is a good deal? I used this website for advice http://www.carbuyingtips.com/car3. htm and also alot of the advice all you guys provided me.