Author Topic: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?  (Read 29904 times)

Radical Plato

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #100 on: February 02, 2016, 07:26:37 AM »
This is the reason why I built my body without drugs.
It's also the reason you look like shit.
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falco

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #101 on: February 02, 2016, 07:58:04 AM »
This is cheating:





And yes, this is disgusting.

Howard

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Re: Can you help me understand...?
« Reply #102 on: February 02, 2016, 08:01:09 AM »
People are always willing to cross the line in life (think Phil Heath at the Olympia).
I really don't think sports are different than other aspects of life, they just mirror the culture; people are willing to do whatever it takes for whatever it is they want. The end justifies the means (think of all the ponzi schemes).

True !

Plus , the cheaters of old didn't get caught like today.
Consider that the  old east German female track team set several world records in the 1970's -80's .
Later , official state documents revealed the proof of the systemic doping of their athletes.

BUT< they avoided getting busted along with plenty other juicers in many other sports.
The cheaters always existed and it's only recently we had the means to bust 'em and the extensive media to let everyone know.

Donny

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Re: Can you help me understand...?
« Reply #103 on: February 02, 2016, 08:06:37 AM »
True !

Plus , the cheaters of old didn't get caught like today.
Consider that the  old east German female track team set several world records in the 1970's -80's .
Later , official state documents revealed the proof of the systemic doping of their athletes.

BUT< they avoided getting busted along with plenty other juicers in many other sports.
The cheaters always existed and it's only recently we had the means to bust 'em and the extensive media to let everyone know.

some of the old DDR athletes are now claiming they never knew what they were given...OK given that most were young and maybe under pressure... who knows.

wes

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2016, 08:59:36 AM »
I don't take kindly to disrespect. not on the internet, not in person, not in a grocery store parking lot, not in like at walmart, not in a restaurant, not at the beach, not at the dry cleaners... anywhere.

blahdy blah, blahdy blah, blahdy blah...

...the guy who's willing to go the furthest, wins. if you're not willing to go all the way, it's best you keep your mouth shut and move on, and make it to the next day....
You nut!!  LOL  ;D

stuntmovie

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2016, 11:18:09 AM »
BAY, I haven't had the chance to read beyond the first page of this topic, but we recently had the need to do some 'background research' about cheating in sports and discovered the following article someplace on the  net which may be of interest to you and other GetBiggerrs who read this stuff .....

I hope you find it to be of interest .... (Sorry for the length of this article though.)

We live, for better or for worse, in a competition-driven world. Rivalry powers our economy, sparks technological innovation and encourages academic discovery. But it also compels people to manipulate the system and commit crimes. Some figure it’s just easier—and even acceptable—to cheat.

But what if instead of examining how people behave in a competitive setting, we wanted to understand the consequences of competition on their everyday behavior?

That is exactly what Amos Schurr, a business and management professor at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, and Ilana Ritov, a psychologist at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, discuss in a study in this week’s Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

“How can it be,” Schurr asks, “that successful, distinguished people—take [former New York State Gov.] Eliot Spitzer, who I think was a true civil servant when he started out his career with good intentions—turn corrupt?

At the same time, you have other successful people, like Mother Theresa, who don’t become corrupt.

What distinguishes between these two types of successful people?”

Schurr and Ritov found that when people win a competition in which success is measured by social comparison rather than by a fixed standard, they are more likely to engage in unrelated unethical behavior—in the case of this study, to cheat their peers out of money.

“We are the first to ask what happens to contestants and their behavior after a competition ends,” Schurr says, “and we found that competitions have long-lasting effects.”

The researchers performed a series of experiments to test these effects.

For the initial competition, they had groups of students take part in an estimation task.

The students were told that those who performed best at estimating the number of signs that flashed across a computer screen would be considered “winners”—and given a pair of earbuds as a prize.

In reality, however, winners were randomly assigned in order to avoid selection bias.

The students were then assigned another task, with a different payoff.

They were randomly split into pairs: one student was given two dice and a cup with a hole in the bottom, the other was told to simply watch.

The pair then played a game over 12 shekels (the equivalent of 12 quarters), in which the first student put the cup over the dice and shook it so that only he could see the results of the roll.

His outcome, between two and 12, would dictate how many shekels he could take; his partner would receive the remaining amount.

No one except Schurr and Ritov knew who had won or lost the initial competition.

Compared with a control group, in which the claimed payout was approximately seven, or the expected value (halfway between two and 12), students who had previously won the competition overclaimed the outcomes of their rolls and took in an average of 8.75 shekels.

“You should note that they’re not stealing from me, the researcher,” Schurr says. “They’re taking from their fellow students, from their friends.”

Schurr and Ritov repeated the dice-under-a-cup game after students participated in a number of other tasks in which “winning” was defined by different parameters.

The researchers found that competitive settings determine behavior.

“You have two types of success,” Schurr says. “One involves social comparison [as in the case of being a better estimator] and the other does not.

And when you measure success in terms of ‘how good am I’ in reference to other people, that’s when people may turn corrupt.”

For instance, participants were asked to recall either an experience in which they won a competition or a situation in which they met a specified goal.

The students who recalled winning a competition cheated in the subsequent dice-under-a-cup game whereas the students who recalled meeting a goal did not.

Similarly, participants who had simply won a lottery did not end up cheating when they reported the outcome of the dice roll but participants who had outplayed their peers in a trivia competition (again, controlled for selection bias) did later overclaim their winnings.

“When we win in competition, in particular when we establish we are above others in rank, we will feel more powerful,” says Dacher Keltner, a psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley who did not take part in the research.

“And dozens of studies have found that the simple feeling of power makes people feel above the scrutiny of others and act in impulsive, self-gratifying and unethical ways. Feelings of power, whether it comes from wealth, a person’s position in a hierarchical structure or in this case competition, can indeed lead to various abuses like lying and stealing.”

Schurr and Ritov attribute the cheating that occurred in their study to a number of possible psychological mechanisms, particularly entitlement.

Their study “ties into recent work that relates to the influence of social-economic status and its influence on ethical behavior,” says Shaul Shalvi, a behavioral economist at the University of Amsterdam who was not part of this study.

“People who are of higher status would break the rules more often.

So, for example, you’re more likely to see a very fancy car ignoring the red traffic light compared to the guy in the normal car because they apparently feel entitled. So it’s nice that this study links to that, because people of high status have probably had the experience of winning.”

Schurr plans to continue his line of research. “We could look at the other side of the coin and see how much competition winners contribute to society as a whole,” he says. “Instead of doing bad things, will people do good things after the competition ends?”

 He also mentioned the possibility of better understanding gender differences in winner behavior. And it would no doubt be valuable to analyze real-world competitions.

“There’s always a trade-off between experimental control, which was high in this study, and the ability to generalize the findings,” Shalvi says. “So these experiments are very important and telling in clarifying underlying psychological mechanisms of the dark or dangerous consequences of competition.

But what still remains to be seen is whether these effects cannot also be seen when analyzing data from sport competitions and business-related competitions.

”If confirmed by such analyses, the research suggests that discouraging social comparisons and focusing instead on fixed goals might be a good way for organizations—from sport teams to businesses to governments—to reduce corruption.

(BAY, IF YOU GOT THIS FAR, I HOPE IT HELPED!)

IN A NUTSHELL IT SEEMS TO PROBE THAT POWER CORRUPTS!

DroppingPlates

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2016, 12:00:45 PM »
It's also the reason you look like shit.

1+1=2 ;D

Ken Fresno

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2016, 12:52:53 PM »
Fuck the haters. Lance is an absolute legend.

Did you see his interview with Joe Rogan? Its well worth a watch.

Bevo

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2016, 01:41:24 PM »
It's also the reason you look like shit.

Hahaha ;D

Radical Plato

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2016, 07:39:10 PM »
Did you see his interview with Joe Rogan? Its well worth a watch.
I watch almost every Joe Rogan podcast, with the exception of when he gets his mates on a regular basis.  And yes, the Lance podcast was awesome.  I hate the moralists and do-gooders, so someone like Lance is a hero to me.
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oldgolds

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #110 on: February 03, 2016, 07:57:40 AM »
It's also the reason you look like shit.

How can you take pride in what you have developed when you know it's dependent on drugs you inject in your butt every week? Don't you feel like a phony?

Grape Ape

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2016, 08:48:42 AM »
How can you take pride in what you have developed when you know it's dependent on drugs you inject in your butt every week? Don't you feel like a phony?

I've never used, but I'm guessing being stronger, leaner, looking better, and having the opportunity for copious amounts of pussy outweigh the  small feelings of guilt.

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phreak

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2016, 08:51:11 AM »
I've never used, but I'm guessing being stronger, leaner, looking better, and having the opportunity for copious amounts of pussy outweigh the  small feelings of guilt.



I have used, and confirm this 100%. Minus the guilt. Don't see the need in playing life on Hard Mode. Not getting an extra life because of it, so no guilt at all.

phreak

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2016, 08:53:26 AM »
As a somewhat serious addendum: When 'on' your goals can also be inhuman. Unnaturally high hormones can be used for unnaturally high achievement.

Radical Plato

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2016, 06:31:40 PM »
How can you take pride in what you have developed when you know it's dependent on drugs you inject in your butt every week? Don't you feel like a phony?
I don't know, do women feel like phoneys when they colour their hair, wear makeup and jewelry and get silicone implants. Do men feel like phonies when they buy sports cars, wear power suits and stuff a sock down their pants.  Everybody is an illusion in some way, we use clothes to highlight strengths and hide weaknesses, we groom ourselves to distract others from the fact we are filthy animals who defecate.  I think you get the point, not only that, you can keep some of the gains you made on gear, it can change your body permanently in some ways.  I mean you would tell an athlete who drank a bunch of coffee and ate healthy food to run faster that the extra speed he gained was fake.  People are just looking for ways to sell their particular illusion to the world, steroids just happens to be another one of those ways.
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oldgolds

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2016, 06:58:21 AM »
I don't know, do women feel like phoneys when they colour their hair, wear makeup and jewelry and get silicone implants. Do men feel like phonies when they buy sports cars, wear power suits and stuff a sock down their pants.  Everybody is an illusion in some way, we use clothes to highlight strengths and hide weaknesses, we groom ourselves to distract others from the fact we are filthy animals who defecate.  I think you get the point, not only that, you can keep some of the gains you made on gear, it can change your body permanently in some ways.  I mean you would tell an athlete who drank a bunch of coffee and ate healthy food to run faster that the extra speed he gained was fake.  People are just looking for ways to sell their particular illusion to the world, steroids just happens to be another one of those ways.


Yada..Yada...rationaliza tions....

YngiweRhoads

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2016, 07:09:01 AM »

Yada..Yada...rationaliza tions....

This.

Pretty sad.
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phreak

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2016, 07:18:11 AM »

Yada..Yada...rationaliza tions....

Being rational is the only way forward. I have not seen a single rational argument against using steroids. The best (and only) argument the PED opposers can manage is 'it is against a completely arbitrary social construct'.

Grape Ape

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2016, 07:25:47 AM »
Being rational is the only way forward. I have not seen a single rational argument against using steroids. The best (and only) argument the PED opposers can manage is 'it is against a completely arbitrary social construct'.

As someone with genetically high cholesterol, I'm fearful of the blood thickening component.
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SomeKindofMonster

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2016, 06:38:24 PM »
I am not yet an old fossil, but when I look at people like Rosie Ruiz, Marion Jones, Lance Armstrong, Mark Mcgwire (google them) and now Tom Brady, I feel as if I am from another era.  I know this sounds hopelessly old fashioned, but where is the satisfaction in “winning” if you know you cheated?  How can that feel good or make you feel as if you have accomplished anything?  Never mind the fans, the media, the investigative authorities, etc.  You know you cheated!  To make matters worse, when confronted instead of hanging their heads in shame and immediately taking responsibility these cheaters will stand in front of microphones indignant and lie with their last breath to insist they did not cheat.  Only when exposed with hard, irrefutable evidence do they “confess” and admit to it all.  It is not a confession if you were exposed.  And you are certainly not "sorry" for anything other than getting caught.

I played many sports while growing up, but maybe I am missing some sports minded gene that allows these folks to rationalize their cheating.  Do you understand it?  Can you explain it to me?  Some people even cheat in sports where there is no big contract or payday waiting for them.  They cheat just to "beat"  the other guy... even if it means winning dishonestly.  Where is the satisfaction in that? ???



It's not cheating because the MAJORITY are doing the same thing and you have no chance
without PED's. The blanks that are there when Armstrong won his titles are filled with 2-10 placed guys who did exactly the same thing. There was a reason most of the track guys of the 1980's were getting braces mid-20's...cause the HGH of that time would spread your teeth apart; ect, ect...

OB1

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #120 on: February 04, 2016, 07:05:35 PM »
It's not cheating because the MAJORITY are doing the same thing and you have no chance
without PED's.

Bullshit.
Cheating is cheating.
No matter how many ppl are doing it.
Lame excuse...
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SF1900

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #121 on: February 04, 2016, 07:16:50 PM »
Its a poor argument to say that its not cheating because the majority of people are all using steroids or other types of PEDs.

The only way this would not be considered cheating is if every competitor took the same EXACT amount of PED's. Thus, the playing field would be equal.

The equivalent would be to give one bodybuilder competitor one type of PED, and another bodybuilder 5 different types of PEDs. Sure, both are using, but one clearly has the advantage over the other due to the amounts he/she is using.

As such, then it just becomes a competition of who could afford the best and most drugs, and who could ingest the most without dropping dead.

Conclusions:

The fact that the majority use PED's does not make it an equal playing field, nor does it negate the fact that they still may be cheating. As stated above, the only way to make this a nonissue is to provide all players with the same amount of illegal substances. Obviously, this cannot be accomplished.
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Radical Plato

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2016, 07:36:48 PM »
Its a poor argument to say that its not cheating because the majority of people are all using steroids or other types of PEDs.

The only way this would not be considered cheating is if every competitor took the same EXACT amount of PED's. Thus, the playing field would be equal.

The equivalent would be to give one bodybuilder competitor one type of PED, and another bodybuilder 5 different types of PEDs. Sure, both are using, but one clearly has the advantage over the other due to the amounts he/she is using.

As such, then it just becomes a competition of who could afford the best and most drugs, and who could ingest the most without dropping dead.

Conclusions:

The fact that the majority use PED's does not make it an equal playing field, nor does it negate the fact that they still may be cheating. As stated above, the only way to make this a nonissue is to provide all players with the same amount of illegal substances. Obviously, this cannot be accomplished.
There is no such thing as a level playing field.  Remove drugs and the guy who still wins, wins because he has some advantage over the competition, whether it be strategic, intellectual, physical, genetic etc.  Nobody calls the tallest basketballers cheats because they have an unfair advantage, that's just the way the world works. The fact is the majority of people are losers, that's why there's so much noise about cheating, as losers they identify with being bullied and beaten and throw a hissy fit whenever they see winners.
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phreak

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2016, 07:55:56 PM »
As someone with genetically high cholesterol, I'm fearful of the blood thickening component.
From a health perspective that may be a valid concern. But clearly we are not discussing health here.

SF1900

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Re: the Cheaters: can you help me understand...?
« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2016, 08:10:57 PM »
There is no such thing as a level playing field.  Remove drugs and the guy who still wins, wins because he has some advantage over the competition, whether it be strategic, intellectual, physical, genetic etc.  Nobody calls the tallest basketballers cheats because they have an unfair advantage, that's just the way the world works. The fact is the majority of people are losers, that's why there's so much noise about cheating, as losers they identify with being bullied and beaten and throw a hissy fit whenever they see winners.

You're right, but at least those attributes are all natural ones. You can't help that. Further, I am reluctant to agree that someone would still win if you removed PEDs. Clearly, PED's gives one an advantage over another person, especially if one is natural and the other is juicing, or one is taking A LOT more than the other one.

However, you can help how much one competitor sticks PED's into their body when compared to another competitor.

You can't control EVERY variable to level the playing field. Thus, you try to control what variables you can control, which are PED's.

Its the same thing with research. Researchers are always trying to control for extraneous variables that may limit the validity/reliability of their study/results. Similarly, you try to control any extraneous variables (PEDs) that may interfere with generalizing the results to pure talent alone.

Its not a perfect system, but it is what it is.
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