Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => History - Stories - and Memories => Topic started by: gh15 on August 13, 2006, 09:22:08 PM
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ok. take pen and paper and sit down for history of hormones in bodybuilding 101,,an elective credit course out of gh15 mouth free of charge. it's going to be long,,but it is the ONLY truth when it comes to bodybuilding history and bodybuilding as a whole. there will be no exam at the end ;) i will not take questions at the end. of the course it is a lecture,, so leave the questions for another day and time.
first,,i would like to start with a review of myself:
1) i am a VERY femiliar face very high regarded IFBB professional athlete,,there is not even one person in the bodybuilding industry that havent seen me or heard about my name. i WON not only competed BUT won proffessional shows before.
2) this lecure will include the such and such of bodybuilding early era (eugene, grimek, steve, bill and many more that due to limited space i wont be able to mention here) it will include key factor in that early bodybuilding era.
3) you MUST understand that i TOO like steve,, inorder for you to be able to read this all without getting crazy mad and smoke coming out of your ears. i DO respect reeves for his contribution to the bodybuilding industry and see him as one of all time best.
i write this as an education for you and your peers and anything i say here that tarnish steve reputation is not meant to do so. this is only for you to learn and penetrate deeper into the hormone/stimulant arena of the late 30s and 40s.
4) im aware of the fact that some of you younger guys (im not talking about guys in their 40s) have steve as a big role model and he deserves this spot. he passed away now for years and it is like open a pandora box for nothing you will think. i think it is good education and i think it will help you decide the way you want to persue your bodybuilding life,,(wether naturally with specific low doses of products or chemically enhanced with taking your physiqe into the higher extreme levels of the npc competition)
5) quotes will NOT be provided since i am writing out of my vast knowledge and experience on myself and on "natural athletes" and chemical enhanced athletes,,i dont have time to go look for quotes for you on the internet or bring in old dead gurus out of the grave. if 240 wants or any other computer specialist,,they will be able to provide you with quotes and references.
6) the lecute will be mostly about steve as the base and everything around it (like an octopus and its many arms) due to late debate about this subject. again steve reeves WAS natural in todays terms. 100% NATURAL IN TODAY'S TERMINOLOGY. he only experiemented with hormones/drugs in their rough stages of development.
so lets start.
"and then there came steve reeves...."
the 19th century was full of books and lliterature about hormones and stimulants for their ability to help human kind. many writers wrote about it and fantesize about it exactly like many sci fi writers fantesized about the red planet and the journy to get there.
bodybuilding was nothing those days and rarely you would find someone who was involved in any type of body-building beside eugene and few select others. they did it with passion to live healthier and "extend" their life spans. they were NATURALS in the real essense of the word,,meaning they built their end physiqe on resistance training and food only (ofcourse there were caffine later on but it was natural) they had no sophisticated supplements either. nothing but good ole food. this era ended with eugene sadly. no one ever came to this level and no one will because the world has evolved and science became reality.
the 20th century brought a lot of promises with it. people were more interested in improving their body and life styles for other than health reasons. it became fashionable along the century in addition to a way of living due the progess achieved by medical research of those early 20s century years.
in all along the beggingin of the 20th century researches experiemnted through trial and error with specific compounds such as insulin etc inorder to eventually someday make it marketable. in 1924 or 25 ely lilly a famous company in usa has produced insulin after long time of research. it helped A LOT of people and in my opinion one of the best hormones of the century with aspects to medical use.
ofcourse it changed the powerlifting and bodybuilding (bodybuilding was a tiny little fun those days) tremendesly!
untill the year of 1925 EVERYTHING in powerlifting and body-building (resistance training) was N A T U R A L,,past 1925 it was going a different direction.
i could talk about grimek specifically but the main substance of this lecture is steve reeves because then,,THE HUMAN BODY and bodybuilding was not marketable. pre steve reeves image there was only the will but there was no substance (as in frame and features) to work with commericaly to a satifying level. grimek was a very good bodybuilder that did experiement with the era rough compounds but his physiqe simply didnt cut it. he was indeed natural 100% in comparrison to todays "naturals" and chemical enhanced athletes.
THE STEVE REEVES BODYBUILDING ERA.
steve is the arnold of usa. he is the all american boy,, the ALL AMERICAN FRAT BOY IMAGE HAS BEEN DEVELOPED WITH STEVE REEVES IN MIND in the eyes of the american girls later on in the 60s and 70s. american pretty boy he was!. "and then came steve reeves.." is not a sentence that was said for nothing,,he was an all american pretty boy. he was tall, had wonderful frame, was nice and charming, he had what ever it takes. he was the HEART of the OCTOPUS body building wanted to become in usa. i repea,,t IN USA. no one cared about the rest of the world in those time. usa was ONLY usa when it comes to marketability of a bodybuilder.
inorder to understand steve reeves influence on the sport of bodybuilding better you need to know the support group and major people of the era that were the BRAIN of the octopus. i will introduce them here to a degree. these individuals contributed more than the athlete itself to the success of bodybuilding and power lifting in the usa and ofcourse around the world later on. they are all good people with good intentions and i respect them all. and here they are: mr. berry, mr johnson, mr blair, mr eugene SCHIFF, mr atlas, mr weider joe, mr hoffman, and ofcourse mr ziegler.
there you have it more or less,,the brain of the octopus. all of these individuals were and wanted make money out of bodybuilding and had to find a star in order to make the baby octopus a big and long armed one. the chosen one was steeve reeves. not to forget!! joe weider came to the scene in 1939-40 and soon later mr reeves popped up..he also only competed between 47 and 50 or 46-50 if my memory serves me correctly and thats because he was by then and only then ready (pay attention to the years).
joe weider is and was BODYBUILDING. he is the SOLE reason modern bodybuilding started and the sole reason bodybuilding will continue. he was the CONNECTION in a big chain of chimical reactions that could never happen unless he was there due to his enormous human skills and his ability to talk you into anything he believed in,,inaddition to his vast knowledge of individuals in diff fields who contributed to the industry some of whom are mentioned in this lecture.
the rest of the above mentioned individual were very important to bodybuilding in their own way and time but! the connection to the HORMONE WORLD was established late in the 30s and early in the 40s by mr weider and the most important person in this lecture beside steve,, and it is MR ZIEGLER.
mr ziegler was the brain and knowledge behind steve reeves enourmous advancment as a bodybuilder. joe weider was the cheerleader and the human skill factor that connected the "willing" people with the "right" people thus i name him "THE GLUE". those 2 brought steve reeves from a pretty boy young man to FAME as a pure usa bodybuilder. from there the way to movies was piece of cake since steve was both pretty boy and gained the muscle needed through training and experiemnting to be uniqe for that time in history.
now,,,after clarifying the brain behind reeves and "THE GLUE" (joe weider) we can take a look at how mr ziengler helped steve reeves.
mr ziegler was a doctor. DOCTOR FOR THE ATHLETES that worked with usa teams. not to forget! in those days a doctor was a king or a god depending on how you see it. he was invloved in rehabilitation therapy and had UNLIMITED acess to anything in the research industry. and oh he acsessed it he surely did with the full support from "THE GLUE".
john was very "connected" to the pharmacutical firm CIBA,,in other words he experiemnted with raw products all through the 40s. very high regarded products that were REAL PHARMA MADE. he had open approach to science and was very good with his research. he experiemnted with version of teststerone on himself ofcourse and then he continued with the general rich patient of his and THE ATHLETES he chose to.
the MAIN CHOSEN ATHLETE for john to work with a young guy by the name of STEVE. the chosen one according to "THE GLUE" had to be a novice,,someone that poses potential and not a joe shmoe,,someone BEAUTIFUL that can push the "health industry" into the eyes of the typical american family of the post WW2.
as i mentioned before CIBA and "THE GLUE" were very much in the chase for introducing american athletes especially body-builders to the testosterone hormone and since 1946 they were pushing it exteremly hard so from 1946 the researches on STEVE were a lot more consistant.
to make a story short,,,10 years later that same mr john ziegler introduced the popular dianabol tablet (derivative of testosterone) into the market produced by CIBA and it was a common house hold product of each and every bodybuilder from grimek in his later years through bill that extended it to the use of nilevar (another very good drug) through a consistant and very organized use of bodybuilders like larry. larry was already using it like candies spread along the day. those were the days animals and humans became alike in many ways atleast drug wise.
getting back to the experiements ziegler conducted with young steve there were other products they tried to see the wat the testosterone will react with them. ziegler tried a fat burner called DNP on steve along with testosterone propionate in its rough older version. insulin another favorite hormone i talked about earlier in this lesson was also experiemented with inorder to see the reaction of the 3 compounds with eachother for muscle building and muscle retaining purposes ONLY. DOCTOR ziegler had an open acess to ANY compound he decided he wanted to research and had a complete back up of CIBA pharmacuticals.
so there we have it: THE BRAIN,,THE GLUE,,AND THE GOLDEN BOY. the creation of modern bodybuilding in its better days when every one was innocent. the researches were very interesting and they also helped the golden boy achieving his dreams. it helped every one in many ways . one became a tycoon of money and the leader i OUTMOST respect,,,yes i respect joe a lot,,,one became the inventor of the best most sold hormone in the sports world and he did regret it at the end of his live BUT he will forever be thankful by us bodybuilders,,and ofcourse it helped us the next generations to realize dreams we never thought were possible,,it helped us achieve wonderful careers and see places we would never see otherwize all through the 60s and 70s.
then came the late 70s early 80s and the ABUSE started. and abuse brought us down to a level that to me is very shocking. a level that got to its lower with the murderer as of recently.
to back up this lecture with literature i am attaching here underneath an article about the researches done with testosterone all along the 20th century. the article is not exactly accurate but i approve it more or less.
i hope you enjoyed it and again this isnot inorder to bring someone down BUT inorder to build someone up!
we,,the industry,, are in trouble,,bodybuilding as you know it will end with ron coleman this is the max a human can develop himself. i do not think bodybuilding will ever stop its existance,,,but the physiqe you see now it at its max development.
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*copy and save this lesson,, it is a tresure for any new and upcoming bodybuilder wether you are natural or enhanced. i would charge close to $1500 for a one hour lecture such as this.
article
Testosterone Dreams
Sex, doctors, and the male hormone
Testosterone dreams are the fantasies of hormonal rejuvenation, sexual excitement, and supernormal athletic performances that have been inspired by testosterone drugs since the “male hormone” testosterone was first synthesized in 1935. Shortly after testosterone was produced in a European laboratory, following a competition among three pharmaceutical companies, Time magazine reported that: “German and Swiss chemical laboratories are already prepared … to manufacture from sheep’s wool all the testosterone the world needs to cure homosexuals (and) revitalize old men.” Imaginative interpretations of the power of hormones—a word that was invented in 1905—proliferated for decades even before the eventual synthesis of testosterone. “Attempts have been made to explain even psychic processes such as emotions and states of mind through the increase or diminution or alterations of this or that gland,” as one scientist noted in Endocrinology in 1919. In short, hormonal substances were granted a power to shape personality and produce euphoric states that they have retained to this day.
Over the past seven decades, the growing use of testosterone and its derivatives, the anabolic-androgenic steroids, have demonstrated that many people around the world are interested in using testosterone products for a variety of purposes. These practices run the gamut from legal procedures such as “anti-aging” therapies, which employ these androgenic drugs with synthetic human growth hormone, to the illegal use of anabolic steroids by many bodybuilders, athletes, and some policemen, who view physical strength and aggression as requirements for performing on stage, in the stadium, or on the street. The use of synthetic testosterone as a sexual stimulant is also becoming increasingly common among older people who belong to a generation that increasingly regards sexual fulfillment as a lifelong entitlement.
Sexuality in conservative times
Testosterone became a charismatic drug during the 1940s because it promised sexual stimulation and renewed energy. Physicians described the optimal effect of testosterone drugs as a feeling of “well-being,” a term that has been used many times since the 1940s to characterize their positive effect on mood. In the early 1940s testosterone was hailed in pharmaceutical advertising as a mood-altering drug whose primary purpose was the sexual restoration and reenergizing of aging males. It appeared at that time that an inexpensive supply, widespread demand, and favorable medical opinion would soon produce a major market for testosterone products.
The first public advocate of testosterone therapy for aging men was the popular science journalist Paul de Kruif, whose manifesto The Male Hormone was published with some fanfare in 1945. Excerpted in Reader’s Digest and promoted by a full-page review in Newsweek (“Hormones for He-Men”), The Male Hormone was in some respects a prophetic book. The potential market for a rejuvenating male hormone seemed to be enormous: “How many millions of American males, not the men they used to be, would flock to the physicians and the druggist, a bit shame-faced and surreptitious, maybe, but hopeful, murmuring: ‘Doc, how about some of this new male hormone?’”
Testosterone did not become a mass market drug in the 1940s due to the sexual conservatism of most American physicians and the society they served. The belief that testosterone was a stimulating drug made it a potential threat to sexual morality as well as a promising therapy. Sensational coverage had given the male hormone a quasi-pornographic image that its female counterpart estrogen had never acquired. Commenting on testosterone’s unsavory reputation in 1946, Science Digest reported that “the uninformed continue to believe that the sole use of this innocent chemical is to turn sexual weaklings into wolves, and octogenarians into sexual athletes.”
The 1940s also saw the use of testosterone therapy as an experimental “cure” for homosexuality. The medical view of homosexuality as a type of endocrine deficiency made the use of testosterone propionate to reverse homosexual orientation virtually predictable. As one physician in 1940 put it: “If homosexuality is merely the result of an endocrine disturbance, the prospect for its cure must be excellent today.”
The idea that the bodies of homosexuals contained less male hormone and more female hormone than those of heterosexuals first appeared in 1935. By 1940 a number of investigators were confident enough in their ability to assay hormone levels to claim that homosexuality was rooted in abnormal sex hormone ratios rather than the psychological complexes hypothesized by Freud and others. “It seems,” one research team wrote, “that the constitutional homosexual has a different sex hormone chemistry than the normal male.” The fallacy of this therapeutic rationale became evident soon enough. Testosterone propionate combined with chorionic gonadotropin was not curing homosexuals, even in studies that encouraged belief in the drug and did not compare its effects with those of a placebo. In fact, it was becoming increasingly clear that androgens did not reverse but actually intensified homosexual libido, so that “sometimes instead of helping one gets a worsening of the condition.”
Prescription for women?
Testosterone drugs were also the favored pharmacological technique of the 1940s for treating sexual “frigidity” in women. Testosterone propionate ointment could be applied to the vulva or clitoris to increase genital sensitivity. Testosterone could be injected or pellets implanted under the skin to intensify libido. By 1943 testosterone propionate was reported to be in widespread use to treat women with sexual and other endocrine disorders. In 1947 a team of authors noted that over the previous decade “the effect of androgens in increasing libido in women has been an almost universal observation.” It appeared that androgens influenced libido in three ways, “causing a) a heightened susceptibility to psychic stimulations; b) increased sensitivity of the external genitalia, particularly of the clitoris and c) greater intensity of sexual gratification.” Perhaps the most interesting point about these scientifically primitive observations is that they have been repeatedly confirmed by later investigators."......
....The idea that women are the principal cause of sexual problems in marriage has been a staple of medical folklore for more than a century. Men were assumed to have a stronger sexual impulse than women. Over the many years the term was in circulation, the medical literature always assigned sexual “frigidity” exclusively to women. The disorder once known as male “impotence,” and that was eventually rechristened “erectile dysfunction,” never carried the same stigma of emotional deficiency and personal inadequacy. Impotence was an unfortunate physiological problem, while “frigidity” signaled a defective personality and a failure to live up to a wife’s marital obligations. Some (male) doctors knew perfectly well that a great deal of the “frigidity” displayed by wives was the direct result of sexually ignorant or indifferent husbands. A 1931 JAMA editorial, for example, argues that most female “frigidity” is caused by the emotional disinterest of husbands who had “obtained their premarital knowledge of the sexual act from intercourse with prostitutes” whose sexual gratification was of no interest to the paying customer.
The medical literature offered various cures for female “frigidity.” During the 1930s and 1940s these included the use of electricity to sensitize the vaginal mucous membrane: “The treatment consists in inserting a large vaginal electrode into the vagina, connecting it with the negative pole, while the positive pole is connected with a wet abdominal electrode, the galvanic current is allowed to pass for about ten minutes. Without disturbing the electrodes, we now give the sinusoidal-galvanic current for another ten minutes. No pain must be caused by the treatment.” Other commentators, as noted, recommended sexual education for the many husbands who appeared to know nothing about female sexual anatomy or psychology. It was during the 1930s that proposals to use hormonal substances to boost female sex drive began to appear with increasing frequency in the medical literature.
By the end of that decade synthetic testosterone propionate and methyltestosterone had become, in effect, experimental drugs that were being used for various (and, in retrospect, usually mistaken) clinical purposes. Megadoses sometimes amounting to thousands of milligrams that were intended to neutralize estrogen-driven breast cancers were one application. One of the unofficial dogmas of this early period was that the male hormone would sexually stimulate men and that estrogens would have a similar effect on women. Androgens were sometimes applied to the penis, while estrogens were applied to the clitoris. The discovery that testosterone sexually stimulated females thus came as a shock to the physicians who observed this effect. A 1941 paper reports the author’s reaction to this phenomenon in both young and old women: “My attention was first drawn to it by several elderly women who found the resurgence of libido distressing. The phenomenon is equally as striking among young women. A number of married women, who had considered themselves frigid, stated that after receiving the testosterone propionate injections they experienced a marked increase in coital gratification, culminating in an orgasm.”
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Good writeup.
gh15, at what age do you think Arnold started taking hormones? Rick Wayne said in Wendy Leigh's book that at 17 Arnold had already been using Dianabol for a few years.
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1. CIBA didn't start manufacturing steroids until around 1958. You still haven't produced a single shred of evidence to the contrary.
2. Just because scientists isolated testosterone in the 1930's doesn't mean athletes were using it back then. That's a huge leap in logic.
3. John Grimek's physique definitely "cut it". He won the Mr. America twice and even beat Steve Reeves in the 1948 Mr. Universe.
4. Weider did not create bodybuilding by any stretch of the imagination. Steve Reeves and John Grimek had nothing to do with Joe Weider. The IFBB wasn't even very important until the 1970's.
5. You're an ignoramus.
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1. CIBA didn't start manufacturing steroids until around 1958. You still haven't produced a single shred of evidence to the contrary.
2. Just because scientists isolated testosterone in the 1930's doesn't mean athletes were using it back then. That's a huge leap in logic.
3. John Grimek's physique definitely "cut it". He won the Mr. America twice and even beat Steve Reeves in the 1948 Mr. Universe.
4. Weider did not create bodybuilding by any stretch of the imagination. Steve Reeves and John Grimek had nothing to do with Joe Weider. The IFBB wasn't even very important until the 1970's.
5. You're an ignoramus.
grimek did not have the face my friend. the over all aspect of bodybuilding those days was health! the rest of what you wrote just show how ignorance you are simply put. what i wrote above it not up for debate it is the BIBLE of bodybuilding in the mdoern age. wize yourself up
if after you this lecute you still have the courage to be smart ass with me then only thing i can suggest to you is to go and erase your getbig account ;)
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Thanks gh15 for spending your time to enlighten (or try to enlighten) some of the obtuse individuals who still do not believe there is a wolf even after seeing the tracks in the snow…
And to brianx, although CIBA didn't start manufacturing Methandrostenolone
until ~1958, in the early to mid 40s numerous pharmaceutical firms (specifically Searle and Ciba) were experimenting and developing many different testosterone derivatives and similar androgen type drugs…
And Joe Weider published the first issue of Your Physique magazine in 1939 with the start of the IFBB (International Federation of Bodybuilders), in 1946 by Ben Weider….
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there it still makes noise……
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Carl Sagan once wrote " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence " and gh15 hasn't provided one single shred of it. period.
Whats funny is this is the first time anyones heard this story because thats exactly what it is , nothing more than a story which he simply can't verify , he attempts to have others verify his story for him by having 240 look up the sources for him lol
These are proveable facts in his book Building a classic physique the natural way , Steve Reeves outright denies ever taken steroids or even hearing of them untl the mid-1960s.
Another fact is Ciba and Dr John Zeigler didn't produces anabolic steroids until 1956 and didn't even know about about testosterone use in atheletes until the Russians in 1954 at the world games
As the team doctor for U.S. weight lifters, Ziegler discovered at the 1954 World Games in Vienna that the Soviets were using testosterone to boost strength. But in addition to lifting incredible amounts of weights, the Soviet athletes also exhibited the hormone's masculinizing side effects, such as testicles that were shrunken and prostates that were so enlarged the athletes had to be catheterized in order to urinate.
this is when he returned to the US and began work on dianabol. here is the link. the first weightlifter/bodybuilder he used them on was Bill March in 1959.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05275/581242.stm
in closing gh15 you're an outright liar and to accuse Reeves of any drug use flat out contradicts his own words and to make such claims is a slap in the face to his legacy .
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Carl Sagan once wrote " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence "
the last time i heard this sentence it was said on cnn interview by a sore loser by the name of "floyd test",,if im not mistaken another liar by the name of armstrong used this quote on many occations. they brought disgrace to the cycling community as a whole due to lack of knowledge of drugs and implementation of their drug routines.
as i said before this lecture i gave is not up for debate by me or any other proffesional bodybuilder because we know it to be true. it is a mere enlightment to your stubern self and few others that i will refrain from doing any more because i delivered the main point needed.
i attached a long paper that was not written by me to back up the tremendous research that ws done during the 30s and 40s with testosterone and society as a whole.
american olympic athletes started using hormones in the early-mid 50s,,bodybuilder started a long time before!
lastly,,if you want to find a better quote try this one:
"it is better for one to lay low and remain quiet hold his head high and claim he won the war rather than fighting a losing battle"
and in your language: the less you talk the more respect you will leave mr. reeves with my friend.
im not up for debating this subject any more it is time to let him rest in peace.
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Carl Sagan once wrote " Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence " and gh15 hasn't provided one single shred of it. period.
Whats funny is this is the first time anyones heard this story because thats exactly what it is , nothing more than a story which he simply can't verify , he attempts to have others verify his story for him by having 240 look up the sources for him lol
These are proveable facts in his book Building a classic physique the natural way , Steve Reeves outright denies ever taken steroids or even hearing of them untl the mid-1960s.
Another fact is Ciba and Dr John Zeigler didn't produces anabolic steroids until 1956 and didn't even know about about testosterone use in atheletes until the Russians in 1954 at the world games
this is when he returned to the US and began work on dianabol. here is the link. the first weightlifter/bodybuilder he used them on was Bill March in 1959.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05275/581242.stm
in closing gh15 you're an outright liar and to accuse Reeves of any drug use flat out contradicts his own words and to make such claims is a slap in the face to his legacy .
Did Steve Reeves look juiced up?
Jim Thorpe looked more juiced up than Steve Reeves, then again, perhaps Doc and Billy took their DeLorean back to his era and supplied him with teh juice?
Get fcuking real.
(http://www.notablebiographies.com/images/uewb_10_img0681.jpg)
(http://www.hello-online.ru/img/120/thorpe-4.jpg)
The Swedish king handing Jim Thorpe the Decathlon Gold at the 1912 Olympics, and at the same time saying: -YOU, sir, are the greatest athlete in the world.
-Thanks King, said Thorpe.
YIP
Zack
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yes, it's difficult to prove things from 50-70 years ago, but I do believe that the top bodybuilders were injecting testosterone esters throughout the 1940s. In Strength and Health magazine, there are articles about Eiferman and Delinger both gaining 30-40 pounds over the summer prior to their Mr America wins. The connection: they both spent the summer at Yarick's gym in Oakland. Oh, btw, Yarick also trained Reeves.
Looking at photos of Steve Reeves over the years, he was his biggest, thickest, hardest, in 1953. That was after he stopped competing, and before his movie career took off. If he used steroids, it was that summer.
Testosterone esters were first mentioned in Strength and Health in 1938. It was not a controlled substance. It was available. Why wouldn't top athletes been using it?
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ND seems determined to the point of obsession with denying that Reeves ever used the gear, basing all of his evidence on the fact that REEVES HIMSELF denied it ::)
People that have at one time denied using the gear:
Reeves
Scott
Arnold
Armstrong
Gatlin
Jones
Ronnie :o
What do they all have in common?
People say they've never done steroids because they think it makes them look as though they have awesome genetics - that they are above mere mortals who have to resort to 'cheating' by using the gear. Pathetic.
You've lost this one ND.
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"ND, you don't know what you're talking about! I used steroids! They turned from a genetically blessed pretty boy into a legend! I owe it all to steroids. Now let me rest in peace. [you'll love it in Heaven; testosterone flows in the rivers and dbol grows on trees]
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Good read. It seems to fit that Weider would "supplement" the Golden Boy of the past era, as he did with Arnold of the next era.
However, if you look in Arnold's Encyclopedia, Reeves from 19 and Reeves from a few years after look NO different, so that has me questioning his drug usage, if at all. I guess we'll never know for sure.
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Reeves was natural. End of story.
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haha hey gh15
Go fuck yourself you loser!!!!!! Lol pro bodybuilder ::)
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Did you guys know that Steve Reeves was offered the part of James Bond before Sean Connery, but he turned it down....
This is from IMDB
"The role of James Bond was offered to American actor Steve Reeves who turned it down. At the time, Reeves had become an international box office sensation in a group of European made mythological/historical spectacles."
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055928/trivia
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Why do some people get so crazy at the idea that Reeves used testosterone? What does it matter what he did 50 years ago? For some twits it's like a religious debate and you're crucifying their messiah by suggesting that Reeves was on steroids.
Who cares?
Complaining so much about steroids only makes you look like a user by the way.
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Gh15 was cool for like 2 days..... What a phoney
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Did you guys know that Steve Reeves was offered the part of James Bond before Sean Connery, but he turned it down....
This is from IMDB
"The role of James Bond was offered to American actor Steve Reeves who turned it down. At the time, Reeves had become an international box office sensation in a group of European made mythological/historical spectacles."
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055928/trivia
Reeves was awesome. The guy has some serious genetics.
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Gh15 was cool for like 2 days..... What a phoney
I'm telling you, I'm Ronnie Coleman, dammit!
Ron! Make with my blue stars befitting my status as a "pro", so these nitwits will believe me!
;D ;D
::)
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I'm telling you, I'm Ronnie Coleman, dammit!
Ron! Make with my blue stars befitting my status as a "pro", so these nitwits will believe me!
;D ;D
::)
Oh gh15!!!!! I have learned more in two days from reading your posts than watching every dvd and reading every flex magazine ever ::)!!!!!!
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This writer does not sound authentic to me. I have been around this game for 40 years
as a competitor and official. The writers command of the language is quite unconvincing and sketchy at best. It sounds more like hearsay than actual events. Of course this is just my opinion.
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The more I read, the more I am convinced that gh15 is Kamali, Division and Derek all rolled into one.
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I like gh15 but the dude is not a bodybuilder but a body wrecker. That's what the drugs do to your body, while natural eating+training+rest+supplements raise your body up and build it.
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I like gh15 but the dude is not a bodybuilder but a body wrecker. That's what the drugs do to your body, while natural eating+training+rest+supplements raise your body up and build it.
I can be a question of amounts too. 200 mg of test a week is probably healthy, but how many bodybuilders do that little? These geniuses think if you're not doing a gram or three why even bother. ::)
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Funny how all these pathetic people have "inside knowledge" the great Steve Reeves used steroids. A really weak grab for some attention. All these people have come out of the woodwork after Hercules died. Disgusting.
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Funny how all these pathetic people have "inside knowledge" the great Steve Reeves used steroids. A really weak grab for some attention. All these people have come out of the woodwork after Hercules died. Disgusting.
What is even sadder is that rather than post steroid related threads on the steroid forum, he comes here where there is a bigger audience. What an attention whore.
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What is even sadder is that rather than post steroid related threads on the steroid forum, he comes here where there is a bigger audience. What an attention whore.
No it should be on Bodybuilding Fans & Friends!
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excellent point gh15 ...as ussual...and for the others again...ignorance is bliss
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ok. take pen and paper and sit down for history of hormones in bodybuilding 101,,an elective credit course out of gh15 mouth free of charge. it's going to be long,,but it is the ONLY truth when it comes to bodybuilding history and bodybuilding as a whole. there will be no exam at the end ;) i will not take questions at the end. of the course it is a lecture,, so leave the questions for another day and time.
first,,i would like to start with a review of myself:
1) i am a VERY femiliar face very high regarded IFBB professional athlete,,there is not even one person in the bodybuilding industry that havent seen me or heard about my name. i WON not only competed BUT won proffessional shows before.
2) this lecure will include the such and such of bodybuilding early era (eugene, grimek, steve, bill and many more that due to limited space i wont be able to mention here) it will include key factor in that early bodybuilding era.
3) you MUST understand that i TOO like steve,, inorder for you to be able to read this all without getting crazy mad and smoke coming out of your ears. i DO respect reeves for his contribution to the bodybuilding industry and see him as one of all time best.
i write this as an education for you and your peers and anything i say here that tarnish steve reputation is not meant to do so. this is only for you to learn and penetrate deeper into the hormone/stimulant arena of the late 30s and 40s.
4) im aware of the fact that some of you younger guys (im not talking about guys in their 40s) have steve as a big role model and he deserves this spot. he passed away now for years and it is like open a pandora box for nothing you will think. i think it is good education and i think it will help you decide the way you want to persue your bodybuilding life,,(wether naturally with specific low doses of products or chemically enhanced with taking your physiqe into the higher extreme levels of the npc competition)
5) quotes will NOT be provided since i am writing out of my vast knowledge and experience on myself and on "natural athletes" and chemical enhanced athletes,,i dont have time to go look for quotes for you on the internet or bring in old dead gurus out of the grave. if 240 wants or any other computer specialist,,they will be able to provide you with quotes and references.
6) the lecute will be mostly about steve as the base and everything around it (like an octopus and its many arms) due to late debate about this subject. again steve reeves WAS natural in todays terms. 100% NATURAL IN TODAY'S TERMINOLOGY. he only experiemented with hormones/drugs in their rough stages of development.
so lets start.
"and then there came steve reeves...."
the 19th century was full of books and lliterature about hormones and stimulants for their ability to help human kind. many writers wrote about it and fantesize about it exactly like many sci fi writers fantesized about the red planet and the journy to get there.
bodybuilding was nothing those days and rarely you would find someone who was involved in any type of body-building beside eugene and few select others. they did it with passion to live healthier and "extend" their life spans. they were NATURALS in the real essense of the word,,meaning they built their end physiqe on resistance training and food only (ofcourse there were caffine later on but it was natural) they had no sophisticated supplements either. nothing but good ole food. this era ended with eugene sadly. no one ever came to this level and no one will because the world has evolved and science became reality.
the 20th century brought a lot of promises with it. people were more interested in improving their body and life styles for other than health reasons. it became fashionable along the century in addition to a way of living due the progess achieved by medical research of those early 20s century years.
in all along the beggingin of the 20th century researches experiemnted through trial and error with specific compounds such as insulin etc inorder to eventually someday make it marketable. in 1924 or 25 ely lilly a famous company in usa has produced insulin after long time of research. it helped A LOT of people and in my opinion one of the best hormones of the century with aspects to medical use.
ofcourse it changed the powerlifting and bodybuilding (bodybuilding was a tiny little fun those days) tremendesly!
untill the year of 1925 EVERYTHING in powerlifting and body-building (resistance training) was N A T U R A L,,past 1925 it was going a different direction.
i could talk about grimek specifically but the main substance of this lecture is steve reeves because then,,THE HUMAN BODY and bodybuilding was not marketable. pre steve reeves image there was only the will but there was no substance (as in frame and features) to work with commericaly to a satifying level. grimek was a very good bodybuilder that did experiement with the era rough compounds but his physiqe simply didnt cut it. he was indeed natural 100% in comparrison to todays "naturals" and chemical enhanced athletes.
THE STEVE REEVES BODYBUILDING ERA.
steve is the arnold of usa. he is the all american boy,, the ALL AMERICAN FRAT BOY IMAGE HAS BEEN DEVELOPED WITH STEVE REEVES IN MIND in the eyes of the american girls later on in the 60s and 70s. american pretty boy he was!. "and then came steve reeves.." is not a sentence that was said for nothing,,he was an all american pretty boy. he was tall, had wonderful frame, was nice and charming, he had what ever it takes. he was the HEART of the OCTOPUS body building wanted to become in usa. i repea,,t IN USA. no one cared about the rest of the world in those time. usa was ONLY usa when it comes to marketability of a bodybuilder.
inorder to understand steve reeves influence on the sport of bodybuilding better you need to know the support group and major people of the era that were the BRAIN of the octopus. i will introduce them here to a degree. these individuals contributed more than the athlete itself to the success of bodybuilding and power lifting in the usa and ofcourse around the world later on. they are all good people with good intentions and i respect them all. and here they are: mr. berry, mr johnson, mr blair, mr eugene SCHIFF, mr atlas, mr weider joe, mr hoffman, and ofcourse mr ziegler.
there you have it more or less,,the brain of the octopus. all of these individuals were and wanted make money out of bodybuilding and had to find a star in order to make the baby octopus a big and long armed one. the chosen one was steeve reeves. not to forget!! joe weider came to the scene in 1939-40 and soon later mr reeves popped up..he also only competed between 47 and 50 or 46-50 if my memory serves me correctly and thats because he was by then and only then ready (pay attention to the years).
joe weider is and was BODYBUILDING. he is the SOLE reason modern bodybuilding started and the sole reason bodybuilding will continue. he was the CONNECTION in a big chain of chimical reactions that could never happen unless he was there due to his enormous human skills and his ability to talk you into anything he believed in,,inaddition to his vast knowledge of individuals in diff fields who contributed to the industry some of whom are mentioned in this lecture.
the rest of the above mentioned individual were very important to bodybuilding in their own way and time but! the connection to the HORMONE WORLD was established late in the 30s and early in the 40s by mr weider and the most important person in this lecture beside steve,, and it is MR ZIEGLER.
mr ziegler was the brain and knowledge behind steve reeves enourmous advancment as a bodybuilder. joe weider was the cheerleader and the human skill factor that connected the "willing" people with the "right" people thus i name him "THE GLUE". those 2 brought steve reeves from a pretty boy young man to FAME as a pure usa bodybuilder. from there the way to movies was piece of cake since steve was both pretty boy and gained the muscle needed through training and experiemnting to be uniqe for that time in history.
now,,,after clarifying the brain behind reeves and "THE GLUE" (joe weider) we can take a look at how mr ziengler helped steve reeves.
mr ziegler was a doctor. DOCTOR FOR THE ATHLETES that worked with usa teams. not to forget! in those days a doctor was a king or a god depending on how you see it. he was invloved in rehabilitation therapy and had UNLIMITED acess to anything in the research industry. and oh he acsessed it he surely did with the full support from "THE GLUE".
john was very "connected" to the pharmacutical firm CIBA,,in other words he experiemnted with raw products all through the 40s. very high regarded products that were REAL PHARMA MADE. he had open approach to science and was very good with his research. he experiemnted with version of teststerone on himself ofcourse and then he continued with the general rich patient of his and THE ATHLETES he chose to.
the MAIN CHOSEN ATHLETE for john to work with a young guy by the name of STEVE. the chosen one according to "THE GLUE" had to be a novice,,someone that poses potential and not a joe shmoe,,someone BEAUTIFUL that can push the "health industry" into the eyes of the typical american family of the post WW2.
as i mentioned before CIBA and "THE GLUE" were very much in the chase for introducing american athletes especially body-builders to the testosterone hormone and since 1946 they were pushing it exteremly hard so from 1946 the researches on STEVE were a lot more consistant.
to make a story short,,,10 years later that same mr john ziegler introduced the popular dianabol tablet (derivative of testosterone) into the market produced by CIBA and it was a common house hold product of each and every bodybuilder from grimek in his later years through bill that extended it to the use of nilevar (another very good drug) through a consistant and very organized use of bodybuilders like larry. larry was already using it like candies spread along the day. those were the days animals and humans became alike in many ways atleast drug wise.
getting back to the experiements ziegler conducted with young steve there were other products they tried to see the wat the testosterone will react with them. ziegler tried a fat burner called DNP on steve along with testosterone propionate in its rough older version. insulin another favorite hormone i talked about earlier in this lesson was also experiemented with inorder to see the reaction of the 3 compounds with eachother for muscle building and muscle retaining purposes ONLY. DOCTOR ziegler had an open acess to ANY compound he decided he wanted to research and had a complete back up of CIBA pharmacuticals.
so there we have it: THE BRAIN,,THE GLUE,,AND THE GOLDEN BOY. the creation of modern bodybuilding in its better days when every one was innocent. the researches were very interesting and they also helped the golden boy achieving his dreams. it helped every one in many ways . one became a tycoon of money and the leader i OUTMOST respect,,,yes i respect joe a lot,,,one became the inventor of the best most sold hormone in the sports world and he did regret it at the end of his live BUT he will forever be thankful by us bodybuilders,,and ofcourse it helped us the next generations to realize dreams we never thought were possible,,it helped us achieve wonderful careers and see places we would never see otherwize all through the 60s and 70s.
then came the late 70s early 80s and the ABUSE started. and abuse brought us down to a level that to me is very shocking. a level that got to its lower with the murderer as of recently.
to back up this lecture with literature i am attaching here underneath an article about the researches done with testosterone all along the 20th century. the article is not exactly accurate but i approve it more or less.
i hope you enjoyed it and again this isnot inorder to bring someone down BUT inorder to build someone up!
we,,the industry,, are in trouble,,bodybuilding as you know it will end with ron coleman this is the max a human can develop himself. i do not think bodybuilding will ever stop its existance,,,but the physiqe you see now it at its max development.
end
*copy and save this lesson,, it is a tresure for any new and upcoming bodybuilder wether you are natural or enhanced. i would charge close to $1500 for a one hour lecture such as this.
article
Testosterone Dreams
Sex, doctors, and the male hormone
Testosterone dreams are the fantasies of hormonal rejuvenation, sexual excitement, and supernormal athletic performances that have been inspired by testosterone drugs since the “male hormone” testosterone was first synthesized in 1935. Shortly after testosterone was produced in a European laboratory, following a competition among three pharmaceutical companies, Time magazine reported that: “German and Swiss chemical laboratories are already prepared … to manufacture from sheep’s wool all the testosterone the world needs to cure homosexuals (and) revitalize old men.” Imaginative interpretations of the power of hormones—a word that was invented in 1905—proliferated for decades even before the eventual synthesis of testosterone. “Attempts have been made to explain even psychic processes such as emotions and states of mind through the increase or diminution or alterations of this or that gland,” as one scientist noted in Endocrinology in 1919. In short, hormonal substances were granted a power to shape personality and produce euphoric states that they have retained to this day.
Over the past seven decades, the growing use of testosterone and its derivatives, the anabolic-androgenic steroids, have demonstrated that many people around the world are interested in using testosterone products for a variety of purposes. These practices run the gamut from legal procedures such as “anti-aging” therapies, which employ these androgenic drugs with synthetic human growth hormone, to the illegal use of anabolic steroids by many bodybuilders, athletes, and some policemen, who view physical strength and aggression as requirements for performing on stage, in the stadium, or on the street. The use of synthetic testosterone as a sexual stimulant is also becoming increasingly common among older people who belong to a generation that increasingly regards sexual fulfillment as a lifelong entitlement.
Sexuality in conservative times
Testosterone became a charismatic drug during the 1940s because it promised sexual stimulation and renewed energy. Physicians described the optimal effect of testosterone drugs as a feeling of “well-being,” a term that has been used many times since the 1940s to characterize their positive effect on mood. In the early 1940s testosterone was hailed in pharmaceutical advertising as a mood-altering drug whose primary purpose was the sexual restoration and reenergizing of aging males. It appeared at that time that an inexpensive supply, widespread demand, and favorable medical opinion would soon produce a major market for testosterone products.
The first public advocate of testosterone therapy for aging men was the popular science journalist Paul de Kruif, whose manifesto The Male Hormone was published with some fanfare in 1945. Excerpted in Reader’s Digest and promoted by a full-page review in Newsweek (“Hormones for He-Men”), The Male Hormone was in some respects a prophetic book. The potential market for a rejuvenating male hormone seemed to be enormous: “How many millions of American males, not the men they used to be, would flock to the physicians and the druggist, a bit shame-faced and surreptitious, maybe, but hopeful, murmuring: ‘Doc, how about some of this new male hormone?’”
Testosterone did not become a mass market drug in the 1940s due to the sexual conservatism of most American physicians and the society they served. The belief that testosterone was a stimulating drug made it a potential threat to sexual morality as well as a promising therapy. Sensational coverage had given the male hormone a quasi-pornographic image that its female counterpart estrogen had never acquired. Commenting on testosterone’s unsavory reputation in 1946, Science Digest reported that “the uninformed continue to believe that the sole use of this innocent chemical is to turn sexual weaklings into wolves, and octogenarians into sexual athletes.”
The 1940s also saw the use of testosterone therapy as an experimental “cure” for homosexuality. The medical view of homosexuality as a type of endocrine deficiency made the use of testosterone propionate to reverse homosexual orientation virtually predictable. As one physician in 1940 put it: “If homosexuality is merely the result of an endocrine disturbance, the prospect for its cure must be excellent today.”
The idea that the bodies of homosexuals contained less male hormone and more female hormone than those of heterosexuals first appeared in 1935. By 1940 a number of investigators were confident enough in their ability to assay hormone levels to claim that homosexuality was rooted in abnormal sex hormone ratios rather than the psychological complexes hypothesized by Freud and others. “It seems,” one research team wrote, “that the constitutional homosexual has a different sex hormone chemistry than the normal male.” The fallacy of this therapeutic rationale became evident soon enough. Testosterone propionate combined with chorionic gonadotropin was not curing homosexuals, even in studies that encouraged belief in the drug and did not compare its effects with those of a placebo. In fact, it was becoming increasingly clear that androgens did not reverse but actually intensified homosexual libido, so that “sometimes instead of helping one gets a worsening of the condition.”
Prescription for women?
Testosterone drugs were also the favored pharmacological technique of the 1940s for treating sexual “frigidity” in women. Testosterone propionate ointment could be applied to the vulva or clitoris to increase genital sensitivity. Testosterone could be injected or pellets implanted under the skin to intensify libido. By 1943 testosterone propionate was reported to be in widespread use to treat women with sexual and other endocrine disorders. In 1947 a team of authors noted that over the previous decade “the effect of androgens in increasing libido in women has been an almost universal observation.” It appeared that androgens influenced libido in three ways, “causing a) a heightened susceptibility to psychic stimulations; b) increased sensitivity of the external genitalia, particularly of the clitoris and c) greater intensity of sexual gratification.” Perhaps the most interesting point about these scientifically primitive observations is that they have been repeatedly confirmed by later investigators."......
....The idea that women are the principal cause of sexual problems in marriage has been a staple of medical folklore for more than a century. Men were assumed to have a stronger sexual impulse than women. Over the many years the term was in circulation, the medical literature always assigned sexual “frigidity” exclusively to women. The disorder once known as male “impotence,” and that was eventually rechristened “erectile dysfunction,” never carried the same stigma of emotional deficiency and personal inadequacy. Impotence was an unfortunate physiological problem, while “frigidity” signaled a defective personality and a failure to live up to a wife’s marital obligations. Some (male) doctors knew perfectly well that a great deal of the “frigidity” displayed by wives was the direct result of sexually ignorant or indifferent husbands. A 1931 JAMA editorial, for example, argues that most female “frigidity” is caused by the emotional disinterest of husbands who had “obtained their premarital knowledge of the sexual act from intercourse with prostitutes” whose sexual gratification was of no interest to the paying customer.
The medical literature offered various cures for female “frigidity.” During the 1930s and 1940s these included the use of electricity to sensitize the vaginal mucous membrane: “The treatment consists in inserting a large vaginal electrode into the vagina, connecting it with the negative pole, while the positive pole is connected with a wet abdominal electrode, the galvanic current is allowed to pass for about ten minutes. Without disturbing the electrodes, we now give the sinusoidal-galvanic current for another ten minutes. No pain must be caused by the treatment.” Other commentators, as noted, recommended sexual education for the many husbands who appeared to know nothing about female sexual anatomy or psychology. It was during the 1930s that proposals to use hormonal substances to boost female sex drive began to appear with increasing frequency in the medical literature.
By the end of that decade synthetic testosterone propionate and methyltestosterone had become, in effect, experimental drugs that were being used for various (and, in retrospect, usually mistaken) clinical purposes. Megadoses sometimes amounting to thousands of milligrams that were intended to neutralize estrogen-driven breast cancers were one application. One of the unofficial dogmas of this early period was that the male hormone would sexually stimulate men and that estrogens would have a similar effect on women. Androgens were sometimes applied to the penis, while estrogens were applied to the clitoris. The discovery that testosterone sexually stimulated females thus came as a shock to the physicians who observed this effect. A 1941 paper reports the author’s reaction to this phenomenon in both young and old women: “My attention was first drawn to it by several elderly women who found the resurgence of libido distressing. The phenomenon is equally as striking among young women. A number of married women, who had considered themselves frigid, stated that after receiving the testosterone propionate injections they experienced a marked increase in coital gratification, culminating in an orgasm.”
gh15 - you may espouse to know drugs, but geesh, you cannot write, spell or use any proper grammar at all. Stereotypical body builder...strong, but dumb as nails...
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GH is a liar.
There's been some talk that GH is Markus R. That's bullshit. I talk to Markus a couple times a month. He doesn't come on this board (or any one for that matter). The impostor is purposely using bad English to mislead.
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excellent point gh15 ...as ussual...and for the others again...ignorance is bliss
Then GH15 surely is in "bliss" ::)
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gh15 is the type of fag who hangs out within 15 feet of fellow "pros" and think he knows them personally.
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First tell me what John Fair and Bill Starr believe. One is an historian and the other a writer (for York) and an eye witness and knew the subjects of many of these events, and then let's go from there.
If you wish to believe outside that basic sphere of knowledge, then do so. The CIA made those WTC towers explode on 9/11. The list of beliefs goes on...
A sample of Bill Starr's writings in this area:
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Back to the Rack Pt 3
by Bill Starr
Those who had a connection to York had learned about the magic pink pills. Dianabol started out as a pink pill, and then the color was changed to blue. Don’t ask me why. The point is, those outside the circle remained ignorant of the athletes’ steroid use. Even after I moved to York to become Tommy’s assistant at Strength & Health, I still didn’t find out about Dianabol until I’d been there for six months. Once word started to spread, it swept across the country like a wildfire. The cat was out of the box, and as Ziegler predicted, it was Pandora’s box that had been opened.
I want to clear up a common misconception here: York lifters, other than March, did not get Dianabol from Ziegler. He adamantly refused any requests for the drug and encouraged Hoffman not to assist them in getting it from other sources. His advice fell on deaf ears. Hoffman liked the advantage the steroid gave his lifters and made arrangements with a physician in York who provided it free of charge. Dianabol became part of the recruitment package. Represent the York Barbell Club, and received protein, vitamins, sweats, T-shirts, travel expenses to meets and anabolic steroids. Not unexpectedly, with a residency rule requiring lifters to live in the area where their team was based set aside, the York team grew quickly. When it came to weightlifting, Bob Hoffman was the AAU.
Lifters from California to Texas to New York and everywhere in between discovered that when they started taking Dianabol, it didn’t matter how they trained. They still made fast gains. The opinion among lifters was that the great progress that March and Riecke made was a direct result of the anabolics and that isometrics was a smokescreen—a well-designed hoax to sell courses and racks. Isometrics and isotonic-isometrics fell out of favor as fast as they had shot to the forefront.
The truth of the matter, though, is that Ziegler’s rack programs did contribute to the gains made by the test subjects. And all the other lifters—such as Garcy, Bartholomew and Bednarski—also used the program he set down. What got lost because of Hoffman’s subterfuge was the hard-and-true fact that rack training is one of the very best ways to increase strength, particularly the isotonic-isometric system.
I have used it on advanced athletes at the three colleges where I served as strength coach. Every one of them responded favorably, and none were taking steroids. The gains they made were a direct result of the training system, not an ergogenic aid.
The primary reason that isometric training is not a part of strength programs today is coaches don’t understand the basic concepts well enough to be able to teach it to their players. And unless they were taught the system by Ziegler, they are totally unaware of the subtleties involved—or, more correctly, unless they were taught by the doctor or by someone who learned from the doctor. Coaches stay with what they know. It’s safer than venturing into uncharted territory, especially when their jobs depend on the progress made by their athletes.
Even so, when I teach isometric training to coaches and athletes at clinics, they learn the technique readily because it’s so simple. That’s another reason rack training isn’t in common use: Complicated is considered better than simple. Chains, rubber bands, elaborate machines and contraptions have to produce more strength than just lifting a weighted bar a few inches and then holding it against a set of pins for 12 seconds. That’s the current thinking, but it’s wrong. There’s no better way to gain strength than by doing isotonic-isometrics.
Obviously, you must have a power rack in order to use this system. On the ideal rack the holes for the pins are set close together, and the uprights should be wide enough apart to enable you to perform a wide range of exercises. If your routine includes overhead lifts, such as military presses or jerks, you want the rack to be higher than the finish position of the movements.
If the power rack that’s available to you doesn’t meet all of those standards, you can still do some isos. Whenever I encountered a rack that didn’t have the holes close together, I resorted to standing on two-by-fours to get the exact position I was seeking. Since I wouldn’t be moving my feet during the iso, it didn’t pose a problem.
The question arises: What positions in the rack are the best to do? The answer is, it depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. A bodybuilder would select different exercises from a shot-putter, and an Olympic lifter would do a different routine from what a powerlifter uses. In other words, your iso workout should be sport specific. For example, powerlifters have little use for overhead power, so there’s no reason for them to include any pressing positions in the rack. Instead they’ll benefit by selecting various benching placements.
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john was very "connected" to the pharmacutical firm CIBA,,in other words he experiemnted with raw products all through the 40s. very high regarded products that were REAL PHARMA MADE. he had open approach to science and was very good with his research. he experiemnted with version of teststerone on himself ofcourse and then he continued with the general rich patient of his and THE ATHLETES he chose to.
the MAIN CHOSEN ATHLETE for john to work with a young guy by the name of STEVE. the chosen one according to "THE GLUE" had to be a novice,,someone that poses potential and not a joe shmoe,,someone BEAUTIFUL that can push the "health industry" into the eyes of the typical american family of the post WW2.
as i mentioned before CIBA and "THE GLUE" were very much in the chase for introducing american athletes especially body-builders to the testosterone hormone and since 1946 they were pushing it exteremly hard so from 1946 the researches on STEVE were a lot more consistant.
You claim Zeigler was very connected to Ciba and experimented throughout the ' 40s ' with raw products and he researches on Steve were a lot more consistant in 1946 and this statement ( among others ) shows you're full of shit because Zeigler didn't start working for Ciba until 1954 !!
So if you can't provide proof for your claim I can provide proof that directly contradicts your claims and proves you simply making shit up.
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ND seems determined to the point of obsession with denying that Reeves ever used the gear, basing all of his evidence on the fact that REEVES HIMSELF denied it ::)
People that have at one time denied using the gear:
Reeves
Scott
Arnold
Armstrong
Gatlin
Jones
Ronnie :o
What do they all have in common?
People say they've never done steroids because they think it makes them look as though they have awesome genetics - that they are above mere mortals who have to resort to 'cheating' by using the gear. Pathetic.
You've lost this one ND.
Again for every person you claim didn't do steroids I can post scores of who said they did and all past champions so your claim carries no weight
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Franco Colombu
Frank Zane
Sergio Oliva
Dave Draper
Bill Pearl
Dorian Yates
Lee Priest
Shawn Ray
Flex Wheeler
Bob Paris
Craig Titus
Tom Prince
Robby Robinson
Tom Platz
Mike Menzter
Ray Mentzer
Lou Ferrfigno
I can keep going but you get the point. using logic & common sense Reeves entertaining he did use would have zero reason to lie about it , none what so ever.
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ND: what quantities did Bob Paris take? Did "Gorilla Suit" explain this?
To be honest with you I don't recall if he discusses ammounts or not its been a long time since I read the book , I'd had to check it again . I just finished Beyond The Universe by Bill Pearl good book , he admits his very brief experiment with steroids in the late 60s .
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Again for every person you claim didn't do steroids I can post scores of who said they did and all past champions so your claim carries no weight
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Franco Colombu
Frank Zane
Sergio Oliva
Dave Draper
Bill Pearl
Dorian Yates
Lee Priest
Shawn Ray
Flex Wheeler
Bob Paris
Craig Titus
Tom Prince
Robby Robinson
Tom Platz
Mike Menzter
Ray Mentzer
Lou Ferrfigno
I can keep going but you get the point. using logic & common sense Reeves entertaining he did use would have zero reason to lie about it , none what so ever.
I take offence to the following and demand proof that they where not natural athletes!
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the most important thing for me in writing this piece was for ANY bodybuilder wether begginer or advanced to know the truth behind bodybuilding and drug use,,to know the truth behind pharmacutical research and drug use by modern bodybuilder(ziegler did not work for ciba in the 40s he was doing the experiemnts from his own clinic working with the knowledge support and raw material coming out of ciba,, big diff!). this is also the ONLY SINGLE reason i still visit this board.
all the responds are woderful wether you agree with it or not,,wether you like my writing style or not ;) ,,it is personal preference. to me the most important thing was to make sure the younger generation reads it,,the 16-21 upcoming kids.
there is nothing else i can add to this piece because the more i read it the more masterful i think it is. it is hardcore bodybuilding from within. the way it was the way it is and the way it will always be till its death IF ever.
the amount of PMs im getting is all good,,please understand im not a machine,,so answers to pms will come whenever i have time for it. thankds
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the most important thing for me in writing this piece was for ANY bodybuilder wether begginer or advanced to know the truth behind bodybuilding and drug use,,to know the truth behind pharmacutical research and drug use by modern bodybuilder(ziegler did not work for ciba in the 40s he was doing the experiemnts from his own clinic working with the knowledge support and raw material coming out of ciba,, big diff!). this is also the ONLY SINGLE reason i still visit this board.
all the responds are woderful wether you agree with it or not,,wether you like my writing style or not ;) ,,it is personal preference. to me the most important thing was to make sure the younger generation reads it,,the 16-21 upcoming kids.
there is nothing else i can add to this piece because the more i read it the more masterful i think it is. it is hardcore bodybuilding from within. the way it was the way it is and the way it will always be till its death IF ever.
the amount of PMs im getting is all good,,please understand im not a machine,,so answers to pms will come whenever i have time for it. thankds
Now you're backpeddling again , stop you've been exposed for being a lair . this is your direct quote
john was very "connected" to the pharmacutical firm CIBA,,in other words he experiemnted with raw products all through the 40s. very high regarded products that were REAL PHARMA MADE. he had open approach to science and was very good with his research. he experiemnted with version of teststerone on himself ofcourse and then he continued with the general rich patient of his and THE ATHLETES he chose to.
the MAIN CHOSEN ATHLETE for john to work with a young guy by the name of STEVE. the chosen one according to "THE GLUE" had to be a novice,,someone that poses potential and not a joe shmoe,,someone BEAUTIFUL that can push the "health industry" into the eyes of the typical american family of the post WW2.
as i mentioned before CIBA and "THE GLUE" were very much in the chase for introducing american athletes especially body-builders to the testosterone hormone and since 1946 they were pushing it exteremly hard so from 1946 the researches on STEVE were a lot more consistant.
he did NOT start working at Ciba until 1954 , you stated a matter of factly he was very connected to to Ciba and he experimented with raw products all through the 1940s . this simply isn't the case your whole story is nonsense.
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listen kid,,i asked you nicely to stop bringing steve reeves back into this because the more you talk the worse he looks. you dont pay attention. now you are blaming me for lies and by that you making yourself look like a complete fool. relax i just got a request from that mahem board and another growing board to allow it to be posted there so relax because its getting out of hand.
i charge a lot of money from words coming out of my mind and time wasting resulted by me having to type back ;) relax,,just let the bodybuilding community read it and absorb it, nothing said or done can change what happend 60-70 years ago now,, the key word of the day for you is: relax otherwise you will be th efirst one to get heart attack online
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i charge a lot of money from words coming out of my mind and time wasting resulted by me having to type back ;) relax,,just let the bodybuilding community read it and absorb it, nothing said or done can change what happend 60-70 years ago now,, the key word of the day for you is: relax otherwise you will be th efirst one to get heart attack online
Who are you billing for this fine piece of literature? ::) ::) ::)
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Now we are offered a body building conspiracy theory involving The Brain, The Glue and The Golden Boy. From a man who appears to have his own giant ego on drugs. Delusion and disinformation seems to have taken over as recorded fact from gh15. And all for the noble cause of educating the 16-21 year old "kids". This man deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. Or at least the character assassination award for 2006.
Would we consider that Reeves physical makeup was of a natural gifted, genetic muscle making machine? A type of person, who if never had lifted a weight or did anything athletic in his life, would carry much more muscle mass (and less body fat) than the average male. I see a few like that among my Samoan bro's. Guy's with those hard 18+ guns who never trained in their lifes. One guy benched 335 for 8 reps the first and only time he tried it. They don't train or have the desire to. The only drugs used are maybe a 40 or light one up now and than. gh15 is negelecting the stone cold fact that some of those old time body builders were in that natural, easy gainer class. Given the fact that 'roids of that era were very mild, I would doubt that they had any noticeable bearing on the '40 & 50's era body builders.
Gh15's self annointing nature, along with his rambling and confusing tome, give little credit to what he has written or produced. Fuzzie logic at it's worse. Self delusion passed off as knowledge and information. He might consider rehab. Good Luck.
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Gh15 interesting article. Question: What do you consider the genetic uperlimits for a legitimate drug free man, say average height of 5ft 10in, with 8 percent body fat?
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Gh15 interesting article. Question: What do you consider the genetic uperlimits for a legitimate drug free man, say average height of 5ft 10in, with 8 percent body fat?
5'10 8% completely drug and supp free can eat from the morning to the evening and from the evening to the morning and he wont see the number 200lb on the scale while remaining 8%. he might see the number 190 with 8%,, IF he got superman genetics which is not the case in 99% of the cases.
160-185 at 8% (or less) in majority of cases.
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listen kid,,i asked you nicely to stop bringing steve reeves back into this because the more you talk the worse he looks. you dont pay attention. now you are blaming me for lies and by that you making yourself look like a complete fool. relax i just got a request from that mahem board and another growing board to allow it to be posted there so relax because its getting out of hand.
i charge a lot of money from words coming out of my mind and time wasting resulted by me having to type back ;) relax,,just let the bodybuilding community read it and absorb it, nothing said or done can change what happend 60-70 years ago now,, the key word of the day for you is: relax otherwise you will be th efirst one to get heart attack online
You can't even keep your story straight and its YOU who is attempting to make Steve Reeves look bad , you're directly contradicting his natural status and outright calling him a liar and you're doing so without any facts ! you claim Zeigler was well connected with Ciba throughout the 1940s and thats a proveable LIE , Zeigler DID NOT start working at Ciba until 1954. you're nothing more than a liar .
You charge a lot of money for the words comming out of your mind? I guess its true what P.T. Barnum said " there is a sucker born every minute. " you claim to be an IFBB pro if you're obviously lying about Reeves why would anyone believe any other part of your story? nevermind pay you for your dubious information ! you don't want to continue this conversation because you've been backed into a corner and became a victim of your own story , your own lies proved you wrong.
And you've again never once explained how you know this ' story ' to begin with , you've again went on at lenght , what he was taking , how long , when , and what was availble , there is no way on earth you could know this information even it were true , but again when directly confronted with the questions of how you personally know all this , you never once attempted to answer the questions lol thats a clear indication of what you know.
You're looking like a major fool right now , so what I expect is for you to make a few more attempts at justifying your story then its very likely we won't be seeing you post here much more , making up another story about how tons of people are dying for your time and willing to pay for it ::)
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i suggest you ask yourself why no bodybuilders actually coming on here to argue on your behalf,,only few kids
i am not in arguments with you as i told you i like reeves too but the truth is stronger than anything my friend,,the fact of me answering you is to begin with showing that something is wrong with me :D youre a kid
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i suggest you ask yourself why no bodybuilders actually coming on here to argue on your behalf,,only few kids
i am not in arguments with you as i told you i like reeves too but the truth is stronger than anything my friend,,the fact of me answering you is to begin with showing that something is wrong with me :D youre a kid
meltdown.
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i suggest you ask yourself why no bodybuilders actually coming on here to argue on your behalf,,only few kids
i am not in arguments with you as i told you i like reeves too but the truth is stronger than anything my friend,,the fact of me answering you is to begin with showing that something is wrong with me :D youre a kid
Why would anyone believe you, an anonymous internet poster over Steve Reeves who was known for his integrity? Get over yourself.
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The title of this thread tells the whole story. GH15 thinks he is the Walter Cronkite of Getbig. ::)
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If these drugs even existed in this era I seriously doubt they were readily available. Reeves competed from 1948 to 1953. This was right after WWII and during the Korean war. Pharmacuticals were in VERY short supply. How on earth would you obtain them? Your spouting nothing but hearsay and lies.
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Exactly. It's all hearsay until we can prove that what he's saying is true, in which case, if we posted our "facts" we would be castrated by the same people who aren't in the know (just like we were before we found out the truth.)
gh15 could be telling the truth or lying, but arguing will solve very little without extremely solid evidence to support either case.
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i suggest you ask yourself why no bodybuilders actually coming on here to argue on your behalf,,only few kids
i am not in arguments with you as i told you i like reeves too but the truth is stronger than anything my friend,,the fact of me answering you is to begin with showing that something is wrong with me :D youre a kid
This has NOTHING to do with me or anyone who is supporting me , this whole thread is about you and your claims of personal information that Steve Reeves experimented with steroids & insulin.
You refuse to provide ounce of proof , instead you offer up a lame story , you go about how heavily involved Dr John Zeigler was with Ciba labs in the 1940s and he didn't even start working with Ciba until 1954
You keep saying you like Reeves , but your outright contradictory statements about his natural status are a slap in the face of his bodybuilding legacy. you say you're not into arguments , its obvious you're not into evidence either .
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5'10 8% completely drug and supp free can eat from the morning to the evening and from the evening to the morning and he wont see the number 200lb on the scale while remaining 8%. he might see the number 190 with 8%,, IF he got superman genetics which is not the case in 99% of the cases.
160-185 at 8% (or less) in majority of cases.
I think in general you are right, but you do have your rare individuals that exceed this without drugs and supps. Not bragging but I have been able to achieve a bodyweight of 205lb at 5ft 11in without drugs or supplements. With supplements (Creatine and Glutamine) up to 220lbs lightly clothed. At single digit body fat, aprox 6-7 percent.
With respect, I would argue that it is possible to achieve for some people.
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I think in general you are right, but you do have your rare individuals that exceed this without drugs and supps. Not bragging but I have been able to achieve a bodyweight of 205lb at 5ft 11in without drugs or supplements. With supplements (Creatine and Glutamine) up to 220lbs lightly clothed. At single digit body fat, aprox 6-7 percent.
With respect, I would argue that it is possible to achieve for some people.
5'11 205 ~ 5'10 198 (~7lb/inch for male) = NOT possible 100% completely natural with no supp while remaining at 8% no clothes on. (in the morning after 8 hour sleep no food in system with one single glass of water drank before weighin,, no clothes/shoes/pump which =3-8lb)
thus you were 5'11 ~198~7% which is parallel and will look very much alike as 5'10~190~8% = POSSIBLE COMPLETELY NATURALLY as i said before if ones have extra ordinary response to training which i assume you have if you were at those numbers at this body fat. 5'11 198lb 7% bf is SUPERB physiqe and only minority of trainees will be able to achieve it naturally.
guys you need to pay attention to the way i write and to the small details i put in. they are exteremly important. when you see the 5'7 guys in the bronx weighin 220 they are not 8% they are sitting at a good 18-20% bodyfat and in most cases been working out in the past with the intake of supplements and in many cases trial periods with hormones.
now as i said ,,again,, to the narcistst kid from mahem that loves reeves. every single word that come out of my mouth is truth. i provided more facts about the time period of the 40s and its hormonal/drug experiemtns in comparisson to what you provided (look in the first thread+official article i provided inorder to find it). i see this as a mute argument to make as i said in past posts of mine ON THIS THREAD. i will do you one last favor and repeat what i said in bold with explentaions:
1. ziegler did not work at ciba during the 40s,,he worked FOR ciba experiementing with athletes and few other individuals who had the means. ALL THROUGH THE 40S. you dont have to be officially employed by a company to work for it and experiemting for it. it is done BEHIND THE SCENES (look at the name of this thread!) in many places with contracting out for research. ziegler was infamous for working with athletes and ESPECIALLY bodybuilders to achieve progress of the human physiqe. you must remember that within 10 years post the 1946 he officially created a drug by the name of DIANABOL. if you take your ass off the computer and research a little you will find out that any drug has been researched for years upon years before it goes out to the market. ziegler was experiemtngin with rough version of testosterone and its derivatives for years before he actually OFFICIALLY brought it out for the every day shmoe to use it and started to market it for the GENERAL PUBLIC. OFFICIALLY IS THE KEY WORD IN THE ABLOVE PARAGRAPH ;).
2. only the olympic AMERICAN team started using hormones OFFICIALLY IN post 1952. the bodybuilder steve reeves was experiementing with them all through the 40s
3. the bodybuilder steve reeves was experiemnting with insulin and dnp in addition to testosterone in rough version of its development. he not only experiemnted with test but also the other products mentioned which were available past 1930 to any one and every one.
4. the 30s and 40s were for testosterone what the 90s and 2000s are for igf1lr3. (i stopped counting how many guys now days coming to me for advice tellin me they are natural and only using igf1lr3 ::)) only diff is testosterone works a hell of a lot better! it is natural to the body and can maintain its potency through synthetic formulations. it is the most natural compound to the body you will ever find,,,indeed la cour is right in many ways saying to the world he is "natural" ;) during the 30s and 40s ziegler who was a doctor, and an athlete himself that loved bodybuilding, had to chose someone to experiement on in his clinic beside himself. someone marketable that trains hard and is a bodybuilder in all essense of the word (not to forget! the drug dianabol/testosterone was supposed to be mainly an athlete boost,, an "extra something" made mainly for athletes,, so what could be better than chosing an athlete,, and what an athlete could be better than an athlete with the love and marketable look for bodybuilding). reeves was the chosen one.
and to the ones who say "the glue" (not under no IFBB but under himself as a bodybuilding entrepenour "wanna be" and oh he sure became one ;)) had nothing to do with the pick up of reeves,,you dont know what youre talking bout willys ;)
5. as you can see no bodybuilders come to argue your points. the reason is US bodybuilders know it to be true because we know what it is to be 215 at 5-6%. ask heath ;)
i like the getbig board and i try to put some sense in your brain which will not work with you so i see it as mute point to argue anymore.
now you can go on and bring back the kids to argue your points again,,i think you are not trying to persuade me,,you are trying to persuade yourself. thats the sad thing ;) but its ok it teaches you something about bodybuilding so its good.
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Reeves was on gear.
He was the levrone of his time taking lots of time off training and then getting into shape superfast.
Had superb genetics though...
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Actually Reeves served in the US army during WWII, where he contracted malaria in the Philippines. So I don't believe he was indulging with gear, or anything like that, while in the service. And you said all through the '40's, which would mean that Reeves started when he was 14 years old, in 1940. In his first Mr America win ('47) he narrowly beat out Eric Peterson (all the golden boy qualities of Reeves) by a half a point. Peterson must have missed the conspiracy train, which involved The Brain, the Glue and The Golden Boy, by that loss.
gh15 may want to list his source of information if he expects to be taken seriously. A complete dossier, verifying names of persons, places and dates involved with Reeves drug taking, for example. These documents would be helpful. If gh15 had the good grace to identify himself, rather than the cowardly manner in which he hides behind a false name, than there might be a chance that someome may believe him. Otherwise he is just another babbling, self absorbed, attention seeking idiot on the net. Someone who feels the need to slander and give false witness against the good character of others. Good Luck.
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5'11 205 ~ 5'10 198 (~7lb/inch for male) = NOT possible 100% completely natural with no supp while remaining at 8% no clothes on. (in the morning after 8 hour sleep no food in system with one single glass of water drank before weighin,, no clothes/shoes/pump which =3-8lb)
thus you were 5'11 ~198~7% which is parallel and will look very much alike as 5'10~190~8% = POSSIBLE COMPLETELY NATURALLY as i said before if ones have extra ordinary response to training which i assume you have if you were at those numbers at this body fat. 5'11 198lb 7% bf is SUPERB physiqe and only minority of trainees will be able to achieve it naturally.
guys you need to pay attention to the way i write and to the small details i put in. they are exteremly important. when you see the 5'7 guys in the bronx weighin 220 they are not 8% they are sitting at a good 18-20% bodyfat and in most cases been working out in the past with the intake of supplements and in many cases trial periods with hormones.
now as i said ,,again,, to the narcistst kid from mahem that loves reeves. every single word that come out of my mouth is truth. i provided more facts about the time period of the 40s and its hormonal/drug experiemtns in comparisson to what you provided (look in the first thread+official article i provided inorder to find it). i see this as a mute argument to make as i said in past posts of mine ON THIS THREAD. i will do you one last favor and repeat what i said in bold with explentaions:
1. ziegler did not work at ciba during the 40s,,he worked FOR ciba experiementing with athletes and few other individuals who had the means. ALL THROUGH THE 40S. you dont have to be officially employed by a company to work for it and experiemting for it. it is done BEHIND THE SCENES (look at the name of this thread!) in many places with contracting out for research. ziegler was infamous for working with athletes and ESPECIALLY bodybuilders to achieve progress of the human physiqe. you must remember that within 10 years post the 1946 he officially created a drug by the name of DIANABOL. if you take your ass off the computer and research a little you will find out that any drug has been researched for years upon years before it goes out to the market. ziegler was experiemtngin with rough version of testosterone and its derivatives for years before he actually OFFICIALLY brought it out for the every day shmoe to use it and started to market it for the GENERAL PUBLIC. OFFICIALLY IS THE KEY WORD IN THE ABLOVE PARAGRAPH ;).
2. only the olympic AMERICAN team started using hormones OFFICIALLY IN post 1952. the bodybuilder steve reeves was experiementing with them all through the 40s
3. the bodybuilder steve reeves was experiemnting with insulin and dnp in addition to testosterone in rough version of its development. he not only experiemnted with test but also the other products mentioned which were available past 1930 to any one and every one.
4. the 30s and 40s were for testosterone what the 90s and 2000s are for igf1lr3. (i stopped counting how many guys now days coming to me for advice tellin me they are natural and only using igf1lr3 ::)) only diff is testosterone works a hell of a lot better! it is natural to the body and can maintain its potency through synthetic formulations. it is the most natural compound to the body you will ever find,,,indeed la cour is right in many ways saying to the world he is "natural" ;) during the 30s and 40s ziegler who was a doctor, and an athlete himself that loved bodybuilding, had to chose someone to experiement on in his clinic beside himself. someone marketable that trains hard and is a bodybuilder in all essense of the word (not to forget! the drug dianabol/testosterone was supposed to be mainly an athlete boost,, an "extra something" made mainly for athletes,, so what could be better than chosing an athlete,, and what an athlete could be better than an athlete with the love and marketable look for bodybuilding). reeves was the chosen one.
and to the ones who say "the glue" (not under no IFBB but under himself as a bodybuilding entrepenour "wanna be" and oh he sure became one ;)) had nothing to do with the pick up of reeves,,you dont know what youre talking bout willys ;)
5. as you can see no bodybuilders come to argue your points. the reason is US bodybuilders know it to be true because we know what it is to be 215 at 5-6%. ask heath ;)
i like the getbig board and i try to put some sense in your brain which will not work with you so i see it as mute point to argue anymore.
now you can go on and bring back the kids to argue your points again,,i think you are not trying to persuade me,,you are trying to persuade yourself. thats the sad thing ;) but its ok it teaches you something about bodybuilding so its good.
The more you type the more you incriminate yourself . some of your facts that are outright wrong.
1) Ziegler wasn't associated with Ciba until 1954
2) Ziegler didn't ' offcially ' create Dianabol until 1958 NOT 1956 like you claim
3) Ziegler was NOT a doctor as you claim ' during the 30s and 40s ziegler who was a doctor ' he didn't finish college until 1942 and after that he went into the Marine Corps and served in World War II and he didn't attend medcial school until after the war , so your claim he was a doctor in the 1930s is again WRONG
Now ontop of being outright wrong on those points , you've still have NOT provided one ounce proof what so ever , and you contradict youself in your other posts. these are your quotes
steve reeves could be called natural because he did not have consistancy in his drug use. it was nothing to write home about.
How can we consider Reeves to be natural when according to you he used testosterone/pre-testosterone tablets , isulin and now DNP? thats a direct and total contradiction , at first you just claimed Reeves did testosterone , then a few posts later you claimed pre-testosterone tablets and a few posts later you added insulin and finally we're up to DNP , you keep changing your story. whats next snythol?
You claimed he could be called natural yet again you elude that his life was cut short " if im not mistaken reeves died at age 73? unnatural death right? thats not the healthiest thing ive seen in the around the block my friend " by all his hormone use?
You claim his use was nothing to write home about and he could be called natural and then make this statement ' it is exteremly hard to be 6 feet 215 with 5-6% natural. as i said many times before original genetics got nothing to do with size and conditioning achieved through training and "supp". ' you claim his used was so small that he could be considered natural and then go onto say its almost impossible to be 6'0" and 215lbs without ' supp ' so which is it? is he natural or could his 215lbs only be built with use?
This is yet another one of your gems " stevve reeves as i said before ONLY experiemnted with steroid use,,only later in his movie career he was more of so called juicer. so yes he was natural in his competetive career ' now you're claiming he was more of a so called ' juicer ' durring his movie career , despite the fact the he was actually smaller durring this time lol in his competitive heyday he was 215lbs , durring his film career the directors & producers had him drop weight because he was litteraly dwarf his costars , he was down to 187lbs for his movie roles , so this is once again contradictory to your claim he could be called natural at his biggest and he was more of a juicer at his smallest lol
You're story his full of holes , contradictions and outright lies , couple that with the fact that you've still yet to provide one-single-ounce of proof and its easy to come to the conclusion that your full of shit ! ;)
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if i put my name out my career will be over my friend,,so you see how good it is to stay annonymousousous ;)
there are "friends" of mine that are sitting with fists and smoke coming out of their ears when reading me. the truth shall set you free! and i chose this route called getbig. it is safe,, it has the right crowd that wanna hear about REAL bodybuilding,,and i chose it over mayhem because i didnt consider mahem a bodybuilding board and the steroid boards already know it.
jpm, when i said read my words carefully i meant it! all through the 40s can be from 1940 to 1950 and in between i did not state date and time because for date and time i would have to be there and as i said none of us was there ;) age 14 is not the key here,, the key here is that steve reeves pre competition and during competition experiemented with hormones wether you get angry by it or not. 10 years is a very long time.
in bodybuilding you dont just pop out of no where,,it never happen this way!,,look at how long the kids kuclo and that other english kid working with drugs inorder to achieve decent national competetive physiqe. it involves a lot of quality time in the gym that is done PRE EXPOSURE.
today it is not much of a hard work due to the enourmous drugs we surround ourselves with,,,,then, during the 30s 40s and 50s it was a lot of hard work in the gym mixed with experiemting with hormones through trial and error method.
now,, i dont come here and discover a new america,,,i just state it and clarify it for the average joe. if you want to become a bodybuilder you GOTTA do what it takes and it takes more than just lifting weights and eat chiken and brown rice. was true then and still true now. we are humans we all look somewhat alike while training naturally (yes even samoans :D) and we whole have a complete diff look when we go on hormones (pay attention us at the higher level of bodybuilding look the same!)
steve reeves had the "inbetween look" because as i said before he ONLY experiemnted and did not take the doses larry, arnold, dorian and myself included were/are taking (ranging from ave to high) he only EXPERIEMNTED. he was the BEGGINING of what known as MODOERN BODYBUILDING,,,it dont mean he would win every competition it dont mean he would become the best,,,it only mean he was the beggining of ron coleman thus considered by many INCLUDING me to be natural.
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another thing,,if what i said was not 100% true it would be gone and erased LONG TIME ago. pay attention to the section it is in !
erasing it now by a mod that is a friend of yours wont change the fact every one read it consistently and it is now on 2 other boards
there are other proffessional bodybuilders and gurus on this board. they got to be proffessional by specific methods that is known to us who have pro cards. the only debaters are few clowns that i gestimate sit at age 19-23,,clowns i try to help,,silly me ;)
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another thing,,if what i said was not 100% true it would be gone and erased LONG TIME ago. pay attention to the section it is in !
erasing it now by a mod that is a friend of yours wont change the fact every one read it consistently and it is now on 2 other boards
there are other proffessional bodybuilders and gurus on this board. they got to be proffessional by specific methods that is known to us who have pro cards. the only debaters are few clowns that i gestimate sit at age 19-23,,clowns i try to help,,silly me ;)
Oh there is NO ifs involved , you're dead wrong about Ziegler being a doctor in the 1930s , about him working for Ciba in the 1940s , about Dianabol being made in 1956 ! you're dead wrong and the mods don't care about your bullshit claims.
And what ironic is if you truly had evidence of your claims all you'd have to do it post it and shut me up , but your silence speaks volumes ;)
You say you like Reeves and then come on here and outright lie to impress everyone with your suposed knowlege but you make yourself look like an idiot by making such outrageous claims with zero evidence .
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you are playing a word game. it is typical of guys that have nothing to do with bodybuilding. i said ziegler was a doctor during the 40s and you read the sentences as you chose to,,you take advantage that my english written ability is only 9 out of 10 and not 10 out of 10 ;) anything i write about the steve reeves era belong between 1930-mid 50s. any book nerd knows dianabol was available commercially in 1956
you sound like a typical mayhem kid from the pms i get about you. you are premitive in your thoughts and even with my broken english which is perfect as any one can tell,,, i bring a point out better than you.
i never try to impress anyone i already got my pro card and i know what it takes.
again,,if this was that mahem board you would bann me although i am the reason you are big,,(if you are which i severly doubt that you are anything but a fan). reality dont belong in mahem,,,here you cant do nothin about it ;)
the only reason i answer you now is because it makes it interesting and funny to me that you sit there and arguing with me,,youre a joke
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the truth is stronger than anything my friend
That is why we know you are full of hot air.
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you are playing a word game. it is typical of guys that have nothing to do with bodybuilding. i said ziegler was a doctor during the 40s and you read the sentences as you chose to,,you take advantage that my english written ability is only 9 out of 10 and not 10 out of 10 ;) anything i write about the steve reeves era belong between 1930-mid 50s. any book nerd knows dianabol was available commercially in 1956
you sound like a typical mayhem kid from the pms i get about you. you are premitive in your thoughts and even with my broken english which is perfect as any one can tell,,, i bring a point out better than you.
i never try to impress anyone i already got my pro card and i know what it takes.
again,,if this was that mahem board you would bann me although i am the reason you are big,,(if you are which i severly doubt that you are anything but a fan). reality dont belong in mahem,,,here you cant do nothin about it ;)
the only reason i answer you now is because it makes it interesting and funny to me that you sit there and arguing with me,,youre a joke
Your information is a joke , you've been caught in a handfull of lies already , this is your direct quote ' during the 30s and 40s ziegler who was a doctor ' you're outright wrong he was NOT a doctor in the 1930s as you claim , he didn't even start medschool until the mid 1940s . so I read the sentences as you type them , and I point out your numerous lies .
Dianabol wasn't even created until 1958 I don't care what you say , and when it was no one outside of York knew what it was or what it even did , and Zeigler himself at the time didn't even know how well they worked until much trial and error when working with Bill March slowly on a month to month basis did they finally learn how much they really worked .
The only reason you keep responding is because you're trying to save face , because you know damn well you're wrong and I've proved you wrong . your story is nonsense and contradictory , your claims about Steve Reeves are fanciful lies and a slap in the face of a bodybuilding icon who accomplished more naturally than you could ever hope to on all your cocktails .
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if anything i said was wrong it would not be in the history section. if anything i said was wrong it would be deleated and gone long ago. if anything i said was not true,,,you would not try to persuade yourself so hard,,im surprized you havent brought richard jones yet to help you bring out your point of view ;) you got a big problem when you try to talk bodybuilding to a bodybuilder,,next time try the average joe.
you made steve reeves look like a heavy user with out a single backup from a guru,,getbig expert,,or 5 "blue star" individuals,,thats sad for a fan to do. if i didnt know better i would think that yo uare that adnonis guy,,but even he got some brains to know when enough is enough ;)
drugs are being experiemented every day. drugs were are and will be experiemnted every day untill their commercial availability for years to come. ziegler was a doctor and an athlete during the 40s,,nothing stood in his way and any moron from one look at reeves can tell he was on. the reason i give him the title natural is because he wasnt on long enough and high enough to make a difference. he was the BEGGINING
steve reeves was the beggining,, reg,,bill,,larry,,were the continuation,,nubret and zane were when you couldnt hide it no more,,and labrada and ray were when drug use was like eating popcorn in a movie theatre.
always ask yourself how come no PROFFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER come here to back you up. not untill now as of yet! i dont back you up i make a joke of you everytime you open your mouth ;) and you make a joke of reeves the longer you go on,,but hey feel free ;)
*what is lol i see this" lol" in many of the wirtten comments out of this kid mouth
** "he didn't even start medschool until the mid 1940s . so I read the sentences as you type them "
this is a good example how you take reality out of context. look at when steve reeves competed. mid 40s,,,now i got a mission for you,,,go and interact with med school guys/girls now days,,,half of them work for UG labs as "chemist" along usa and many of them experiemnting with diff researches,,ofcourse they continue when they officially become doctors or whatever other occupation they chose in the medical field.
you are failing in seeing the RISE of steve reeves that is HIGHLY connected with the rise of DOCTOR ziegler. stever reeves competed at his best when ziegler was researching and experiementing at his best. steve reeves was NOTHING before he started experiemnting,,see pictures of him from age 14-16. he was nothing but a skinny boney boy with little muscle mass and lot of potential due to good frame and bone structure (very good ribcage) and ofcourse good face. thats sums up the reason for his choice as a center of a "revolution" later on during the 40s called MODERN BODYBUILDING.
*** one more thing,,are you um how do i say this here um,,,are you a homo sexual? (dont take it too hard im just playin with you ;))
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According to John Fair of Auburn University, (Isometrics or Steroids? Exploring New Frontiers of Strength in the Early 1960s, published in the Journal of Sports History, Vol 20 #1, Spring 1993), there does not appear to be any record of Ziegler experimenting with testosterone until 1954, when he moved to Olney, and specialized in the treatment of seriously injured patients.
Ziegler's initial contact with York was in 1954, and he worked his off days for CIBA, which was supplying him with experimental amounts of testosterone. CIBA also provided him with books and records from Germany where similiar experiments were carried out by the Nazis.
Fair reports that according to Grimek, Ziegler's first application of testosterone was in treating an appendectomy patient, then a burn victim, and even administered doses to himself.
Bill Starr states that Ziegler traveled with the York team to Vienna in 1954 for the World Championships. Ziegler was very gregarious and joined in with the Russians to drink vodka during the evenings. During these drinking bouts, Ziegler learned that the Russians were using isometrics and experimenting with a new strength-enhancing drug.
Starr states (IM, 7/2005) that "what he learned there [Vienna] set in motion events that ultimately changed strength training, bodybuilding and competitive sports forever."
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if anything i said was wrong it would not be in the history section. if anything i said was wrong it would be deleated and gone long ago. if anything i said was not true,,,you would not try to persuade yourself so hard,,im surprized you havent brought richard jones yet to help you bring out your point of view ;) you got a big problem when you try to talk bodybuilding to a bodybuilder,,next time try the average joe.
you made steve reeves look like a heavy user with out a single backup from a guru,,getbig expert,,or 5 "blue star" individuals,,thats sad for a fan to do. if i didnt know better i would think that yo uare that adnonis guy,,but even he got some brains to know when enough is enough ;)
drugs are being experiemented every day. drugs were are and will be experiemnted every day untill their commercial availability for years to come. ziegler was a doctor and an athlete during the 40s,,nothing stood in his way and any moron from one look at reeves can tell he was on. the reason i give him the title natural is because he wasnt on long enough and high enough to make a difference. he was the BEGGINING
steve reeves was the beggining,, reg,,bill,,larry,,were the continuation,,nubret and zane were when you couldnt hide it no more,,and labrada and ray were when drug use was like eating popcorn in a movie theatre.
always ask yourself how come no PROFFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER come here to back you up. not untill now as of yet! i dont back you up i make a joke of you everytime you open your mouth ;) and you make a joke of reeves the longer you go on,,but hey feel free ;)
*what is lol i see this" lol" in many of the wirtten comments out of this kid mouth
** "he didn't even start medschool until the mid 1940s . so I read the sentences as you type them "
this is a good example how you take reality out of context. look at when steve reeves competed. mid 40s,,,now i got a mission for you,,,go and interact with med school guys/girls now days,,,half of them work for UG labs as "chemist" along usa and many of them experiemnting with diff researches,,ofcourse they continue when they officially become doctors or whatever other occupation they chose in the medical field.
you are failing in seeing the RISE of steve reeves that is HIGHLY connected with the rise of DOCTOR ziegler. stever reeves competed at his best when ziegler was researching and experiementing at his best. steve reeves was NOTHING before he started experiemnting,,see pictures of him from age 14-16. he was nothing but a skinny boney boy with little muscle mass and lot of potential due to good frame and bone structure (very good ribcage) and ofcourse good face. thats sums up the reason for his choice as a center of a "revolution" later on during the 40s called MODERN BODYBUILDING.
*** one more thing,,are you um how do i say this here um,,,are you a homo sexual? (dont take it too hard im just playin with you ;))
if anything i said was wrong it would not be in the history section. if anything i said was wrong it would be deleated and gone long ago. if anything i said was not true,,,you would not try to persuade yourself so hard,,im surprized you havent brought richard jones yet to help you bring out your point of view ;) you got a big problem when you try to talk bodybuilding to a bodybuilder,,next time try the average joe.
You think the mods are going to moniter ever single word typed and research it and then delete it? get serious. you're surprised I haven't brought up Richard Jones? why? he has NOTHING to do with your claims about personally know Steve Reeves was on testosterone/pre-testosterone tablets , insulin and DNP . again thats another one of your deversionary tactics.
you made steve reeves look like a heavy user with out a single backup from a guru,,getbig expert,,or 5 "blue star" individuals,,thats sad for a fan to do. if i didnt know better i would think that yo uare that adnonis guy,,but even he got some brains to know when enough is enough ;)
Another outright lie. its you who are insisting without proof that Reeves was on a drug-cocktail , its YOU who claimed to have this personal information. and I don't know when enough is enough my other thread is 340 pages and I will continue to call you out on your bullshit as long as you keep typing it.
drugs are being experiemented every day. drugs were are and will be experiemnted every day untill their commercial availability for years to come. ziegler was a doctor and an athlete during the 40s,,nothing stood in his way and any moron from one look at reeves can tell he was on. the reason i give him the title natural is because he wasnt on long enough and high enough to make a difference. he was the BEGGINING
I noticed that you left out the part that Ziegler was a doctor in the 1930s which is a lie , now you're just saying it was during the ' 40s ' because you know you're wrong. and anyone can look at Steve Reeves and tell he was on ? ::) the man was 6'1" and weighed just 215lbs thats NOT very big for a man his height , lets say Paul Dillett was 215lbs how many people would be claiming he was ' on ' ? not many . and your again claim he could be considered natural because he wasn't on long enough or his dosages wern't high enough to make an impact , yet you contradict yourself by saying ' anyone can tell he was on ' and how its ' extremely hard for a man 6'0' to weigh 215lbs naturally ' which is it? either the drugs are responsible for his size or they wern't?
steve reeves was the beggining,, reg,,bill,,larry,,were the continuation,,nubret and zane were when you couldnt hide it no more,,and labrada and ray were when drug use was like eating popcorn in a movie theatre.
always ask yourself how come no PROFFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER come here to back you up. not untill now as of yet! i dont back you up i make a joke of you everytime you open your mouth ;) and you make a joke of reeves the longer you go on,,but hey feel free ;)
You keep claiming Reeves was the begining , yet you've provided NO proof . and now you're further speculating on the drug use of Labrada & Ray unless you know firsthand this like your Reeves claims are nothing more than hearsay. and I don't need any PROFESIONAL BODYBUILDERS to back me up , no real ;) Professional bodybuilder would slap the face of a great bodybuilding legend like Steve Reeves . and again this is called deflection , you're quilty of exactly what you're accusing me of , making Reeves look bad. I'm not contradicting his natural status you are , I'm not saying he used multi-drugs to build his physique you are. nice try but you've failed yet again.
*what is lol i see this" lol" in many of the wirtten comments out of this kid mouth
** "he didn't even start medschool until the mid 1940s . so I read the sentences as you type them "
this is a good example how you take reality out of context. look at when steve reeves competed. mid 40s,,,now i got a mission for you,,,go and interact with med school guys/girls now days,,,half of them work for UG labs as "chemist" along usa and many of them experiemnting with diff researches,,ofcourse they continue when they officially become doctors or whatever other occupation they chose in the medical field.
Again you claim Ziegler was experimented with testosterone on Reeves and by backwards reasoning you're trying to tie the two together and you've failed . now seeing you know this for a fact , tie it all together , when did they meet ? how did they meet? when was the first time Reeves experimented? where did he experiment? seeing Reeves was west coast and Ziegler east coast. you make vauge claims with NO specifics. typical of those NOT in the know. stop trying to use examples of today as the what happened back then , if you have proof that he interned with Ciba before 1954 than provide it .
you are failing in seeing the RISE of steve reeves that is HIGHLY connected with the rise of DOCTOR ziegler. stever reeves competed at his best when ziegler was researching and experiementing at his best. steve reeves was NOTHING before he started experiemnting,,see pictures of him from age 14-16. he was nothing but a skinny boney boy with little muscle mass and lot of potential due to good frame and bone structure (very good ribcage) and ofcourse good face. thats sums up the reason for his choice as a center of a "revolution" later on during the 40s called MODERN BODYBUILDING.
No you claim the RISE of Steve Reeves was HIGHLY connected with the rise of DOCTOR ZIEGLER , and you've yet to connect the two. Reeves retired in 1950 , and Ziegler didn't start working for Ciba until 1954 and he only started working there in 54 on his days off !! not as a full-time employee. and in conjunction with Ciba he developed the worlds first anabolic steroid Dianabol in 1958 thats a full eight years after Reeves retired .
And Steve Reeves showed excellent development for a 16 year old , his was certainly ahead of his time and you claim he was a skinny boney boy , which judging by the pictrures is nonsense .
in closing stop with the bullshit ! provide proof of your claims that Reeves worked with Ziegler , experimented with testosterone/pre-testosterone tablets , insulin and DNP you're running a circular argument which is indicitive of people who don't have anything to work with.
*** one more thing,,are you um how do i say this here um,,,are you a homo sexual? (dont take it too hard im just playin with you ;))
Its ironic you should ask , because most IFBB professionals supplement their income by doing gay-for-pay , entertaining wealthy gay gentlemen to buy their drugs , and hey wait aren't you a ' pro ' bodybuilder? lol ;)
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According to John Fair of Auburn University, (Isometrics or Steroids? Exploring New Frontiers of Strength in the Early 1960s, published in the Journal of Sports History, Vol 20 #1, Spring 1993), there does not appear to be any record of Ziegler experimenting with testosterone until 1954, when he moved Olney, and specialized in the treatment of seriously injured patients.
Ziegler's initial contact with York was in 1954, and he worked his off days for CIBA, which was supplying him with experimental amounts of testosterone. CIBA also provided him with books and records from Germany where similiar experiments were carried out by the Nazis.
Fair reports that according to Grimek, Ziegler's first application of testosterone was in treating an appendectomy patient, then a burn victim, and even administered doses to himself.
Bill Starr states that Ziegler traveled with the York team to Vienna in 1954 for the World Championships. Ziegler was very gregarious and joined in with the Russians to drink vodka during the evenings. During these drinking bouts, Ziegler learned that the Russians were using isometrics and experimenting with a new strength-enhancing drug.
Starr states (IM, 7/2005) that "what he learned there [Vienna] set in motion events that ultimately changed strength training, bodybuilding and competitive sports forever."
Great post ! exactly where I've been getting my information.
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are you over 16? you have a lot of time on your hands. you already killed steve reputation and what left of it is long boring chasing and proving to yourself what ever you want to believe in. you are delussional my friend,,i do admire your fight for reeves but your knowledge of the every day life of a bodybuilder during the 40s or now is close to zero.
i stand by any word that came out of my mouth in regards to steve reeves,,and i am not willing to argue with you anymore because you are creating a very long posts for me to write. if you were any one i could consider as relevent to me or my reputation i would maybe call you on the phone and give you the fuckin number of an individual THAT I KNOW DIRECTLY AS A FUCKIN FRIEND from the ziegler's family.
you doubting my knowledge just show how ignorent you are. this thread is not erased and every one reads it and learn and that is what you cant stand,,that is why you keep on coming back here to try to change the mind of people who read it. you cant because the thread is very strong and logical.
you are the same person who buy waxy maize too....oh wait it does work,,, i forgot it doesnt = dextrose and malto,,, it is a magic super carb super fast complex carb,,,super high molecular absorbtion peptide called maltodextrin ;)
you know,,,you sit there and living a lie. the reason im one of the pros that never come on mahem is because of kids like you,,you learn bodybuilding out of books insted of learning it out of your own body and THAT is why you never achieve anything in the sport. that is why you always look the same!
i know what labrada took and i know what ray took (not to the exact doses) they wont come on here to argue and they are alive. try to make any one with credebility coming to point me wrong. call lee he will gladly correct your complete distortion of reailty and he will do it to yoru face too probably not in the public eye (due to labrada company :))
you are a shame for bodybuilding. there is one thing to live a lie but there is another competely diff pathetic thing to argue it!
a bodybuilder is one willing to take his phsyqe to a uniqe level of development. this uniqe level of develoment can only be achieved to its full potential by taking the hormones and stimulants available for the athlete in his/her era. and test and dnp and insulin were available in the 40s (wether rough forms or not dont matter) they were available,,infact they were available in some form or another since 1935 all over the world for experiemting with.
look for a new post about how to stay natural via hormones in the main motherboard. i will reveal secrets and i will demonstrate a source list that will shock you. it will be interesting even more interesting than this thread so you will have something to do with your free time.
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http://www.slate.com/id/2113752/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2113752/)
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http://www.slate.com/id/2113752/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2113752/)
the article below is the only one needed to look at to know that the fish stinks, the saying there is no smoke with out fire is true in this case. take a look at bodybuilders past 1940 and bodybuilders from pre 1925 to find the difference look wize,, size wize and muscle wize. if every one would go natural for real then you would see a lot more eugenes in a good case,,and joe shome bodybuilder in bad case around you.
the genetics of eugene was as good as reeves which tell you that it has nothing to do with genetics,,,it has to do with your response to hormones. marketabily,,,now thats a diff aspect of the sport,,for that you gotta have the over all look and genetics will count there because you will not see palumbo making good money from fitness/bodybuilding for the general public kind of endorsments while oharen will. learn the difference then aborb my style of writing,,and only then comply ;)
article
Testosterone Dreams
Sex, doctors, and the male hormone
Testosterone dreams are the fantasies of hormonal rejuvenation, sexual excitement, and supernormal athletic performances that have been inspired by testosterone drugs since the “male hormone” testosterone was first synthesized in 1935. Shortly after testosterone was produced in a European laboratory, following a competition among three pharmaceutical companies, Time magazine reported that: “German and Swiss chemical laboratories are already prepared … to manufacture from sheep’s wool all the testosterone the world needs to cure homosexuals (and) revitalize old men.” Imaginative interpretations of the power of hormones—a word that was invented in 1905—proliferated for decades even before the eventual synthesis of testosterone. “Attempts have been made to explain even psychic processes such as emotions and states of mind through the increase or diminution or alterations of this or that gland,” as one scientist noted in Endocrinology in 1919. In short, hormonal substances were granted a power to shape personality and produce euphoric states that they have retained to this day.
Over the past seven decades, the growing use of testosterone and its derivatives, the anabolic-androgenic steroids, have demonstrated that many people around the world are interested in using testosterone products for a variety of purposes. These practices run the gamut from legal procedures such as “anti-aging” therapies, which employ these androgenic drugs with synthetic human growth hormone, to the illegal use of anabolic steroids by many bodybuilders, athletes, and some policemen, who view physical strength and aggression as requirements for performing on stage, in the stadium, or on the street. The use of synthetic testosterone as a sexual stimulant is also becoming increasingly common among older people who belong to a generation that increasingly regards sexual fulfillment as a lifelong entitlement.
Sexuality in conservative times
Testosterone became a charismatic drug during the 1940s because it promised sexual stimulation and renewed energy. Physicians described the optimal effect of testosterone drugs as a feeling of “well-being,” a term that has been used many times since the 1940s to characterize their positive effect on mood. In the early 1940s testosterone was hailed in pharmaceutical advertising as a mood-altering drug whose primary purpose was the sexual restoration and reenergizing of aging males. It appeared at that time that an inexpensive supply, widespread demand, and favorable medical opinion would soon produce a major market for testosterone products.
The first public advocate of testosterone therapy for aging men was the popular science journalist Paul de Kruif, whose manifesto The Male Hormone was published with some fanfare in 1945. Excerpted in Reader’s Digest and promoted by a full-page review in Newsweek (“Hormones for He-Men”), The Male Hormone was in some respects a prophetic book. The potential market for a rejuvenating male hormone seemed to be enormous: “How many millions of American males, not the men they used to be, would flock to the physicians and the druggist, a bit shame-faced and surreptitious, maybe, but hopeful, murmuring: ‘Doc, how about some of this new male hormone?’”
Testosterone did not become a mass market drug in the 1940s due to the sexual conservatism of most American physicians and the society they served. The belief that testosterone was a stimulating drug made it a potential threat to sexual morality as well as a promising therapy. Sensational coverage had given the male hormone a quasi-pornographic image that its female counterpart estrogen had never acquired. Commenting on testosterone’s unsavory reputation in 1946, Science Digest reported that “the uninformed continue to believe that the sole use of this innocent chemical is to turn sexual weaklings into wolves, and octogenarians into sexual athletes.”
The 1940s also saw the use of testosterone therapy as an experimental “cure” for homosexuality. The medical view of homosexuality as a type of endocrine deficiency made the use of testosterone propionate to reverse homosexual orientation virtually predictable. As one physician in 1940 put it: “If homosexuality is merely the result of an endocrine disturbance, the prospect for its cure must be excellent today.”
The idea that the bodies of homosexuals contained less male hormone and more female hormone than those of heterosexuals first appeared in 1935. By 1940 a number of investigators were confident enough in their ability to assay hormone levels to claim that homosexuality was rooted in abnormal sex hormone ratios rather than the psychological complexes hypothesized by Freud and others. “It seems,” one research team wrote, “that the constitutional homosexual has a different sex hormone chemistry than the normal male.” The fallacy of this therapeutic rationale became evident soon enough. Testosterone propionate combined with chorionic gonadotropin was not curing homosexuals, even in studies that encouraged belief in the drug and did not compare its effects with those of a placebo. In fact, it was becoming increasingly clear that androgens did not reverse but actually intensified homosexual libido, so that “sometimes instead of helping one gets a worsening of the condition.”
Prescription for women?
Testosterone drugs were also the favored pharmacological technique of the 1940s for treating sexual “frigidity” in women. Testosterone propionate ointment could be applied to the vulva or clitoris to increase genital sensitivity. Testosterone could be injected or pellets implanted under the skin to intensify libido. By 1943 testosterone propionate was reported to be in widespread use to treat women with sexual and other endocrine disorders. In 1947 a team of authors noted that over the previous decade “the effect of androgens in increasing libido in women has been an almost universal observation.” It appeared that androgens influenced libido in three ways, “causing a) a heightened susceptibility to psychic stimulations; b) increased sensitivity of the external genitalia, particularly of the clitoris and c) greater intensity of sexual gratification.” Perhaps the most interesting point about these scientifically primitive observations is that they have been repeatedly confirmed by later investigators."......
....The idea that women are the principal cause of sexual problems in marriage has been a staple of medical folklore for more than a century. Men were assumed to have a stronger sexual impulse than women. Over the many years the term was in circulation, the medical literature always assigned sexual “frigidity” exclusively to women. The disorder once known as male “impotence,” and that was eventually rechristened “erectile dysfunction,” never carried the same stigma of emotional deficiency and personal inadequacy. Impotence was an unfortunate physiological problem, while “frigidity” signaled a defective personality and a failure to live up to a wife’s marital obligations. Some (male) doctors knew perfectly well that a great deal of the “frigidity” displayed by wives was the direct result of sexually ignorant or indifferent husbands. A 1931 JAMA editorial, for example, argues that most female “frigidity” is caused by the emotional disinterest of husbands who had “obtained their premarital knowledge of the sexual act from intercourse with prostitutes” whose sexual gratification was of no interest to the paying customer.
The medical literature offered various cures for female “frigidity.” During the 1930s and 1940s these included the use of electricity to sensitize the vaginal mucous membrane: “The treatment consists in inserting a large vaginal electrode into the vagina, connecting it with the negative pole, while the positive pole is connected with a wet abdominal electrode, the galvanic current is allowed to pass for about ten minutes. Without disturbing the electrodes, we now give the sinusoidal-galvanic current for another ten minutes. No pain must be caused by the treatment.” Other commentators, as noted, recommended sexual education for the many husbands who appeared to know nothing about female sexual anatomy or psychology. It was during the 1930s that proposals to use hormonal substances to boost female sex drive began to appear with increasing frequency in the medical literature.
By the end of that decade synthetic testosterone propionate and methyltestosterone had become, in effect, experimental drugs that were being used for various (and, in retrospect, usually mistaken) clinical purposes. Megadoses sometimes amounting to thousands of milligrams that were intended to neutralize estrogen-driven breast cancers were one application. One of the unofficial dogmas of this early period was that the male hormone would sexually stimulate men and that estrogens would have a similar effect on women. Androgens were sometimes applied to the penis, while estrogens were applied to the clitoris. The discovery that testosterone sexually stimulated females thus came as a shock to the physicians who observed this effect. A 1941 paper reports the author’s reaction to this phenomenon in both young and old women: “My attention was first drawn to it by several elderly women who found the resurgence of libido distressing. The phenomenon is equally as striking among young women. A number of married women, who had considered themselves frigid, stated that after receiving the testosterone propionate injections they experienced a marked increase in coital gratification, culminating in an orgasm.”
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are you over 16? you have a lot of time on your hands. you already killed steve reputation and what left of it is long boring chasing and proving to yourself what ever you want to believe in. you are delussional my friend,,i do admire your fight for reeves but your knowledge of the every day life of a bodybuilder during the 40s or now is close to zero.
i stand by any word that came out of my mouth in regards to steve reeves,,and i am not willing to argue with you anymore because you are creating a very long posts for me to write. if you were any one i could consider as relevent to me or my reputation i would maybe call you on the phone and give you the fuckin number of an individual THAT I KNOW DIRECTLY AS A FUCKIN FRIEND from the ziegler's family.
you doubting my knowledge just show how ignorent you are. this thread is not erased and every one reads it and learn and that is what you cant stand,,that is why you keep on coming back here to try to change the mind of people who read it. you cant because the thread is very strong and logical.
you are the same person who buy waxy maize too....oh wait it does work,,, i forgot it doesnt = dextrose and malto,,, it is a magic super carb super fast complex carb,,,super high molecular absorbtion peptide called maltodextrin ;)
you know,,,you sit there and living a lie. the reason im one of the pros that never come on mahem is because of kids like you,,you learn bodybuilding out of books insted of learning it out of your own body and THAT is why you never achieve anything in the sport. that is why you always look the same!
i know what labrada took and i know what ray took (not to the exact doses) they wont come on here to argue and they are alive. try to make any one with credebility coming to point me wrong. call lee he will gladly correct your complete distortion of reailty and he will do it to yoru face too probably not in the public eye (due to labrada company :))
you are a shame for bodybuilding. there is one thing to live a lie but there is another competely diff pathetic thing to argue it!
a bodybuilder is one willing to take his phsyqe to a uniqe level of development. this uniqe level of develoment can only be achieved to its full potential by taking the hormones and stimulants available for the athlete in his/her era. and test and dnp and insulin were available in the 40s (wether rough forms or not dont matter) they were available,,infact they were available in some form or another since 1935 all over the world for experiemting with.
look for a new post about how to stay natural via hormones in the main motherboard. i will reveal secrets and i will demonstrate a source list that will shock you. it will be interesting even more interesting than this thread so you will have something to do with your free time.
are you over 16? you have a lot of time on your hands. you already killed steve reputation and what left of it is long boring chasing and proving to yourself what ever you want to believe in. you are delussional my friend,,i do admire your fight for reeves but your knowledge of the every day life of a bodybuilder during the 40s or now is close to zero.
I'm well over 16 my friend ;) and how stupid can you be? I killed Reeves' reputation? lol you're the one claiming he's a liar and a multi-drug user and I killed his reputation? I knew you're fond of fantasy but this takes the cake. you keep telling outright lies and I'm delusional? I may not know the every day life of a bodybuilder from the 40s but from your stories you sure as hell don't. and when did we dicuss bodybuilding of now? and for you to guess about my knowlege of todays bodybuilding when I haven't commented on it is premature .
i stand by any word that came out of my mouth in regards to steve reeves,,and i am not willing to argue with you anymore because you are creating a very long posts for me to write. if you were any one i could consider as relevent to me or my reputation i would maybe call you on the phone and give you the fuckin number of an individual THAT I KNOW DIRECTLY AS A FUCKIN FRIEND from the ziegler's family.
Okay you want to stand by your outright lies & contradictions be my guest lol it shows how pathetic you are that you can't even admit when you're wrong. and you're NOT willing to ' argue ' with me anymore because you're having a trouble keeping your story straight and I keep pointing this out and will continue to do so .
Now this is what I've been waiting for lol your claim of how you know all this supposed inside information ! A FUCKIN FRIEND from the ziegler faimly ! what a lame and pathetic response , a friend of the faimly told you all this seceret information ::) you couldn't be a little more creative? you're a pathetic joke . your information entertaining your stupidty for a momment isn't firsthand , secondhand its thirdhand and you stated it so matter-of-factly ::)
you doubting my knowledge just show how ignorent you are. this thread is not erased and every one reads it and learn and that is what you cant stand,,that is why you keep on coming back here to try to change the mind of people who read it. you cant because the thread is very strong and logical.
I'm not just doubting your knowlege I proved it wrong , period. the only strenght and logic in this thread isn't from YOU its from everyone laughing at your claims .
[you are the same person who buy waxy maize too....oh wait it does work,,, i forgot it doesnt = dextrose and malto,,, it is a magic super carb super fast complex carb,,,super high molecular absorbtion peptide called maltodextrin ;)
you know,,,you sit there and living a lie. the reason im one of the pros that never come on mahem is because of kids like you,,you learn bodybuilding out of books insted of learning it out of your own body and THAT is why you never achieve anything in the sport. that is why you always look the same!
i know what labrada took and i know what ray took (not to the exact doses) they wont come on here to argue and they are alive. try to make any one with credebility coming to point me wrong. call lee he will gladly correct your complete distortion of reailty and he will do it to yoru face too probably not in the public eye (due to labrada company :))
you are a shame for bodybuilding. there is one thing to live a lie but there is another competely diff pathetic thing to argue it!/b]
I've never been stupid enough to purchase any supplements with the sole exception of creatine and that worked , so I don't know what you're claiming here ???
You claimed to be a pro I say based on your already proved outright lies I would say this is one as well , who cares about Mayhem ? I certainly don't and don't post there . and again you're assuming to know about me and my motivations and my accomplishments or lack there of in reguards to bodybuilding , and you know what they say about assumption. I'm in no way living in a fantasy world where all pros are 296lbs without the use of a cocktail of anabolics , HGH , IGF-1 , Insulin , plasma expanders and snythol , I'm NOT knew to bodybuilding and have followed it since 1985 when Lee Haney won his 2nd Mr Olympia , so stop assuming .
You don't know what Labrada or Ray took , thats more hearsay , you may have more of an educated guess about what they could have been taking but don't state again matter-of-factly you know for sure because your word isn't worth much after your contradictions & outright lies . and I don't need Ray or Labrada or anyone to confirm you're a liar I've done that all by myself.
a bodybuilder is one willing to take his phsyqe to a uniqe level of development. this uniqe level of develoment can only be achieved to its full potential by taking the hormones and stimulants available for the athlete in his/her era. and test and dnp and insulin were available in the 40s (wether rough forms or not dont matter) they were available,,infact they were available in some form or another since 1935 all over the world for experiemting with.
look for a new post about how to stay natural via hormones in the main motherboard. i will reveal secrets and i will demonstrate a source list that will shock you. it will be interesting even more interesting than this thread so you will have something to do with your free time.
See this is where you're contradicting yourself , you claim that one can ONLY reach his ' full ' potential by taking the hormones and stimulants , in your original claim you say Reeves could be considered natural because his use was nothing to write home about , it was so small that it didn't make much of a difference so he could still be labled as natural , now how can he reach his ' full ' potential if what he was using was so small it made no difference ? see this is where you can't keep your story straight lol and this is exactly why you're full of shit ( among other reasons )
And to be honest with you I personally feel Steve Reeves never reached his full potential , he retired at the age of just 24 because he won every major bodybuilding contest there was to win and he lacked challenges , can you imagine retiring at 24? he never reached the best he could ever be
And again you're working backwards on this one because the Germans synthesized testosterone than that means everyone did? nonsense and this is where your story falls apart , Dr John Ziegler didn't even learn about the use of testosterone in athletes until 1954 and the Russians were the ones who let him in on that little secrect , after learning this he returned to the United States he started using testosterone on himself and a few others and it had NO EFFECT and he abandoned the testing of testosterone , and then he created Dianabol in 1958 and even at that point he was having a hard time finding test subjects , there is a story where he went to York Gym and left a bowl full of Dianabol and when asked what they were supposed to do by the weighlifters , he said it was supposed to make you stronger and no one took any
This is documented his first real case study with a weightlifter/bodybuilder was Bill March and for months they wern't even sure it was the Dianabol responsile for his gains , they mistakingly thought it was hypnosis and isometrics , slowy after many months by process of elimination did they understand what was responsible for Marchs new found strenght and injuries
Your claims that Steve Reeves was one of the first bodybuilders handpicked by Dr Ziegler for testosterone experimentation is wrong , your claim that he was a Doctor in the 1930s is wrong , your claim Dianabol was in use in 1956 is wrong , your claim he used insulin simply because it was in use for legitmate use in the medical community in the 1930s is baseless , your claims he could be considered natural because he used sporatically and not much are contradictory to your claims the only way he could reach his full potential hsi by testosterone/pre-testosterone tablets, insulin and DNP , and all your information is based on what a ' faimly friend ' supposedly told you lol I'm laughing at your audacity & stupidty
before you try and impress some people with your knowlege at least research it beforehand this why you wont look so stupid when you make such outrageous claims , but you're used to looking stupid aren't you ? so you don't mind.
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is there any one who still read this long thoughts you have? i cant read it it is too long,,,when i read between the lines i see the words creatine and such and i know you have no clue so its waste of my time.
1. you and bodybuilding have no connection
2. you write too long and shows too much of a fan style of writing rather than someone who knows his bodybuilding.
3. i will start paying attention the moment you bring a blue title individual to argue me. then i will try to pay attention because for real,, it is just too long of garbage to read,,,its like buying flex magazine
im sorry my friend you are just all over the place a.d.d like with out the back bone knowledge of bodybuilding-hormones relashionship.
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is there any one who still read this long thoughts you have? i cant read it it is too long,,,when i read between the lines i see the words creatine and such and i know you have no clue so its waste of my time.
1. you and bodybuilding have no connection
2. you write too long and shows too much of a fan style of writing rather than someone who knows his bodybuilding.
3. i will start paying attention the moment you bring a blue title individual to argue me. then i will try to pay attention because for real,, it is just too long of garbage to read,,,its like buying flex magazine
im sorry my friend you are just all over the place a.d.d like with out the back bone knowledge of bodybuilding-hormones relashionship.
Lol, you're such a tool, gh15, it's not even funny anymore.
Next thing you tell us Marilyn Monroe had silicone tits.
What a burrito you are.
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if i put my name out my career will be over my friend,,so you see how good it is to stay annonymousousous ;)
What career? Why would this effect your job at Burgur King?
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What career? Why would this effect your job at Burgur King?
hahaha, owned!
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is there any one who still read this long thoughts you have? i cant read it it is too long,,,when i read between the lines i see the words creatine and such and i know you have no clue so its waste of my time.
1. you and bodybuilding have no connection
2. you write too long and shows too much of a fan style of writing rather than someone who knows his bodybuilding.
3. i will start paying attention the moment you bring a blue title individual to argue me. then i will try to pay attention because for real,, it is just too long of garbage to read,,,its like buying flex magazine
im sorry my friend you are just all over the place a.d.d like with out the back bone knowledge of bodybuilding-hormones relashionship.
1) more hearsay on your behalf stupid individuals claim to posess knowlege they don't , you don't know my status on or in bodybuilding . again you're fond of making accusations without proof
2) I know you're full of shit and I may not know everything there is about bodybuilding but I know you're dead wrong
3) You're not a ' blue star ' individual you claim to be a ' pro ' based on your other dubious claims the intelligent guess is again you're full of shit
I know full well bodybuilding and chemicals go hand and hand thats old news , you're not privey to any secrect information although you like to act like you are , my may be knowlegable about the drug scene in this day and age but you're full of shit when comes to your cliams about Reeves and Ziegler
I'm still laughing at a ' faimly friend ' gave you all this detailed information lol
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5'11 205 ~ 5'10 198 (~7lb/inch for male) = NOT possible 100% completely natural with no supp while remaining at 8% no clothes on. (in the morning after 8 hour sleep no food in system with one single glass of water drank before weighin,, no clothes/shoes/pump which =3-8lb)
thus you were 5'11 ~198~7% which is parallel and will look very much alike as 5'10~190~8% = POSSIBLE COMPLETELY NATURALLY as i said before if ones have extra ordinary response to training which i assume you have if you were at those numbers at this body fat. 5'11 198lb 7% bf is SUPERB physiqe and only minority of trainees will be able to achieve it naturally.
I don't agree, I currently have a client who at a body weight of 223lbs, 6.2" and single digit bodyfat, he uses no supplements or drugs. There are people, who are rare yes, but there are people that exceed the numbers you have given without drus or supps.
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5'11 205 ~ 5'10 198 (~7lb/inch for male) = NOT possible 100% completely natural with no supp while remaining at 8% no clothes on. (in the morning after 8 hour sleep no food in system with one single glass of water drank before weighin,, no clothes/shoes/pump which =3-8lb)
thus you were 5'11 ~198~7% which is parallel and will look very much alike as 5'10~190~8% = POSSIBLE COMPLETELY NATURALLY as i said before if ones have extra ordinary response to training which i assume you have if you were at those numbers at this body fat. 5'11 198lb 7% bf is SUPERB physiqe and only minority of trainees will be able to achieve it naturally.
I don't agree, I currently have a client who at a body weight of 223lbs, 6.2" and single digit bodyfat, he uses no supplements or drugs. There are people, who are rare yes, but there are people that exceed the numbers you have given without drus or supps.
again you do not comprehand. EVERY INCH = ~7 POUNDS = MALE ---> 6'2 223 which we all know is 220 in the am is ~ to 5'10 190. very rare yet possible with 9% or less.
you forgot to factor the height in my friend ;)
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1) more hearsay on your behalf stupid individuals claim to posess knowlege they don't , you don't know my status on or in bodybuilding . again you're fond of making accusations without proof
2) I know you're full of shit and I may not know everything there is about bodybuilding but I know you're dead wrong
3) You're not a ' blue star ' individual you claim to be a ' pro ' based on your other dubious claims the intelligent guess is again you're full of shit
I know full well bodybuilding and chemicals go hand and hand thats old news , you're not privey to any secrect information although you like to act like you are , my may be knowlegable about the drug scene in this day and age but you're full of shit when comes to your cliams about Reeves and Ziegler
I'm still laughing at a ' faimly friend ' gave you all this detailed information lol
yada yada,,,still everything you say doesnt have pictures attached to it and doesnt have back up from any one who knows his bodybuilding on this board.
if you knew who i am you would also be emberessed kid.
p.s give ron you phone number and details and you will get a call about ziegler from a member of his family. i PROMISE you will get the call just because i want to emberess you more ;) its not enough for me to prove it by pictures i want you to hear it hands and ears on ;)
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yada yada,,,still everything you say doesnt have pictures attached to it and doesnt have back up from any one who knows his bodybuilding on this board.
if you knew who i am you would also be emberessed kid.
p.s give ron you phone number and details and you will get a call about ziegler from a member of his family. i PROMISE you will get the call just because i want to emberess you more ;) its not enough for me to prove it by pictures i want you to hear it hands and ears on ;)
The only one you ' emberessed ' is yourself , you tried to act like you have inside information than no one else did and the place you choose to reveal this information was on GetBig lol wow we're all certainly impressed with your wealth of bodybuilding knowlege ::)
You can't even keep your own story straight , you've contradicted yourself a boat load of times and you outright lied , you've exposed yourself as a complete idiot and anyone who agrees with you is an idiot as well
Keep typing though I enjoy your stupidity. ;)
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Yo man! Don't waste all that good stuff on GETBIG! You should write a book! Are you Nasser?
Regarding "STEVE REEVES- behind the scenes (only for getbiggers,,only on getbig!)"
If you want, I'd be happy to team up and create a "members only" and/or for-pay (split 50/50) website where you can post these. Might be chump change to you, but it'd be a cool supplimental income to me.
I know my internet shit...my portfolio: garraeth.com
Hey bro
I know you dont answer PM's but just wanted to check if your still going to help 2 people out? Just wanted to throw my name in the ring again just in case.
Its great having you on board, and gives this clowns something to talk about other than who's having a meltdown...LOL.
Keep posting away bro. Also Ive been cutting and pasting all your info on diet/training/supps. Its a great read putting it all together.
Thanks again
gh, to blow up like Levrone did, did he simply use massive amounts of Test and Tren? I have heard that Tren is the creme de la creme drug for BBers getting ready for shows. Can you shed some light on a person like him that increased weight for shows?
identity of individual saved with me.
I did some research and early in Skip Lacours carrer he failedc he polygraph test twice, in the ABA all natural organization.Once in 1994, then again in 1995 .On the test it showed he was deceptive about anabolic use, and being natural.If you dont beleive me you can call the promoter Denny Kakos his number is 909 734-3900 .The organization uses the best polygrapher in the country, and he works with the FBI.Dennny Kakos flies him in to do all the poly graphs Test .Thats why Skip only does Muscle Mania, aND Team Universe because there test are just urine, or random testing.The ABA tests every competitor
[/quote]
now after you see who believes who and learned your lesson i hope you can relax and get back to yoru everyday life. the above are only few out of over 200 different private messegess i got from getbiggers.
you and being bodybuillder as i said before got no connection. you might be a fan of bodybuilding,,might even be a gymrat/fan who tried/try/will try to juice but you are NOT a bodybuilder ;)
from now on you can go on and write to yourself because you lost me,,your knowledge and ideas and unwillingness to listen and learn have lost me.
good luck to you arguing with yourself the pms i get are enough for me to be satisfied about bringing home reality and i shall contniue to do so on the many other threads of mine that for some reason ;) never get deleated.
enjoy reading them by the way
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is there any one who still read this long thoughts you have? i cant read it it is too long,,,when i read between the lines i see the words creatine and such and i know you have no clue so its waste of my time.
Agreed..keep in mind you're dealing with amateurs here, don't take them seriously. They love the attention they get from trying to sound like they know more than they do. ;D
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again you do not comprehand. EVERY INCH = ~7 POUNDS = MALE ---> 6'2 223 which we all know is 220 in the am is ~ to 5'10 190. very rare yet possible with 9% or less.
you forgot to factor the height in my friend ;)
actually I did take the height into account thats why I listed it. This individual is still climbing in strength and muscular development from month to month, and from what I can tell has the capacity to build at least 10 more pounds to his frame with assistance.
Concerning my own development I have been able to achieve the 205lbs without supplements, it took a lot of effort but I know what I have accomplished. At a height of just under 5.11 I exceed your guidelines by a bit.
I would also include that besides creatine, protein powders, MRP's, most supplements fall way short of producing meaningful results. It's not NOs that make Jay and Ronnie's muscles so round.
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identity of individual saved with me.
I did some research and early in Skip Lacours carrer he failedc he polygraph test twice, in the ABA all natural organization.Once in 1994, then again in 1995 .On the test it showed he was deceptive about anabolic use, and being natural.If you dont beleive me you can call the promoter Denny Kakos his number is 909 734-3900 .The organization uses the best polygrapher in the country, and he works with the FBI.Dennny Kakos flies him in to do all the poly graphs Test .Thats why Skip only does Muscle Mania, aND Team Universe because there test are just urine, or random testing.The ABA tests every competitor
I'd like to see this verified. Could someone call Denny Kakos?
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identity of individual saved with me.
I did some research and early in Skip Lacours carrer he failedc he polygraph test twice, in the ABA all natural organization.Once in 1994, then again in 1995 .On the test it showed he was deceptive about anabolic use, and being natural.If you dont beleive me you can call the promoter Denny Kakos his number is 909 734-3900 .The organization uses the best polygrapher in the country, and he works with the FBI.Dennny Kakos flies him in to do all the poly graphs Test .Thats why Skip only does Muscle Mania, aND Team Universe because there test are just urine, or random testing.The ABA tests every competitor
now after you see who believes who and learned your lesson i hope you can relax and get back to yoru everyday life. the above are only few out of over 200 different private messegess i got from getbiggers.
you and being bodybuillder as i said before got no connection. you might be a fan of bodybuilding,,might even be a gymrat/fan who tried/try/will try to juice but you are NOT a bodybuilder ;)
from now on you can go on and write to yourself because you lost me,,your knowledge and ideas and unwillingness to listen and learn have lost me.
good luck to you arguing with yourself the pms i get are enough for me to be satisfied about bringing home reality and i shall contniue to do so on the many other threads of mine that for some reason ;) never get deleated.
enjoy reading them by the way
Again you keep trying to post some internet-resume like that validates your knowlege , it doesn't , that means zero when concerning your claims about Reeves.
And you're damn right I lost you , because I pointed out all your lies and contradictory statements and you can't even follow your own bullshit story .
You want out of this debate in the worse way because more and more people can see right through yout story , so you run along now and play with your PM friends and try and impress them with your ' knowlege ' because you sure as hell didn't impress me .
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It should be all natural.
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It should be all natural.
Agreed; an all-natural, hard work approach is the way to go for all BBers serious about their health, lopngevity & physique.
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GH15, how can you expect people to buy the garbage that you are so obviously selling here? Go peddle you attention whore bullshit wares somewhere else. Everyone and their dog Rover can see through your bullshit and expose you for the liar you are.
Come on man....before you even start to tell your "story" you say there will be no qoutes or evidence to back it up. For whatever lameass reason (hey! lameass story told by a lameass douchebag!) you still provide ZERO, thats ZERO, evidence or even a way to simply corroborate the story. You think your word on this matter is solid? You my dumbass friend are completely wrong. Leave the boards, you offer nothing but falacies and lies. Ship It.
Sincerely
Gigantor.
P.s. next time you spill this bile, bring some evidence to back it up. Until, hit the bricks.
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jesus christ...people like u gigantor...u simply astound me....are u for real??...this is a domain that u are not even familiar with yet u cast an oppinion...wtf...gh15... u must have a lot of love for bb to be around these boards after encounters such as this one...wtf happened to normal people?
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Yes I'm for real. And my last post was a bit over the line.
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GH15, how can you expect people to buy the garbage that you are so obviously selling here? Go peddle you attention whore bullshit wares somewhere else. Everyone and their dog Rover can see through your bullshit and expose you for the liar you are.
Come on man....before you even start to tell your "story" you say there will be no qoutes or evidence to back it up. For whatever lameass reason (hey! lameass story told by a lameass douchebag!) you still provide ZERO, thats ZERO, evidence or even a way to simply corroborate the story. You think your word on this matter is solid? You my dumbass friend are completely wrong. Leave the boards, you offer nothing but falacies and lies. Ship It.
Sincerely
Gigantor.
P.s. next time you spill this bile, bring some evidence to back it up. Until, hit the bricks.
my friend,,,go to chris and take a good look at him,,one of the better "genetics" bodybuilders around,, a black bro with "genetics" reeves could only dream of. see what he looks like clean,,that dont mean natural!,,it means clean on hrt doses here and there.
genetics determines the shape of your muscles. performance enhancing drugs are what bring your "genetics" to a noticable level.
215-220 at 6% with full-cut-ripped,,pushing through the skin muscles,, even at 6'1,, is achieved partially by the intake of hormones in some form or another. it doesnt mean you dont have to train hard and eat,,it just means the drugs has a lot more than you think,,to do with the end result.
when you come to me and show me my bread and butter atleast know what youre talking about,,do me a favour kido.
the sooner you learn it,,the better you will be ;)
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ALL things are possible to him who believes.
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Ive been following this post for a while now and it makes me wonder how bad some of our get biggers really look!?!?! Anyone that thinks that a BBer with above average genetics couldnt achieve Reeves build without the use of pharma gear is crazy.
True- Steve was increadibly well built, the pictures of him as a teenager gives us hints of what he could become, but I think his build is very achievable drug free. Granted we might not have his perfect proportions or his height or general structure, but those things have nothing to do with drugs.
It seems like the vast majority of people I've met online and in gyms ive lifted at are so eager to point a finger and say " wow he must be hitting the sauce" that it has become an unwritten rule. If someone you see is bigger or stronger they must be jacked.
I really doubt that Reeves was on any kind of Test or other anabolic in his day. Grimick wasnt and he had a much thicker build a few years earlier than Reeves. Enough said
For the record Sergio was someone that was VERY open and honest about his use of drugs. Sergio said he never used roids until he went after the olympia crown. This picture of him was from 1965ish. If what he says is true he might have been "on" for maybe a year. Either way his physique was amazing for someone that was basically natural.
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u are smoking crack....i'll tell u why...this is a tribute to the weider marketing campaign from the early days and continued through muscle builder and power and m&f later flex and so on that this generation and previous ones were so indoctrinated by the media they had access to that all along u guy's were looking at hormone built phisiques and thought protein powders and such. the whole bb industry and the magazines have ONE purpose: TO SELL !!!....hence the whole sharade. Now someone like gh15 comes along and risks his well being, freedom and such...and tell u guy's what is really going on. ..which i thank u for (gh15) by the way. HOW IN THE WORLD can u be so indoctrinated and in denial to believe that gh15 is talking out of his ass? i'll tell u how...u don't know anything in depth about bb'ing, or any sport for that matter.
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by the way: GH15...IF I AM FAR OFF OR JUST ALITTLE PLEASE CORRECT ME. THANX.
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u are smoking crack....i'll tell u why...this is a tribute to the weider marketing campaign from the early days and continued through muscle builder and power and m&f later flex and so on that this generation and previous ones were so indoctrinated by the media they had access to that all along u guy's were looking at hormone built phisiques and thought protein powders and such. the whole bb industry and the magazines have ONE purpose: TO SELL !!!....hence the whole sharade. Now someone like gh15 comes along and risks his well being, freedom and such...and tell u guy's what is really going on. ..which i thank u for (gh15) by the way. HOW IN THE WORLD can u be so indoctrinated and in denial to believe that gh15 is talking out of his ass? i'll tell u how...u don't know anything in depth about bb'ing, or any sport for that matter.
Im not really sure if this was directed to me or not but I will answer anyway.
Every other day some joker shows up and claims to know someone or be someone. Who Gh15 is I dont know, maybe hes in the know and maybe he isnt. I hate to say it but with out a name he has no credit. I guess if I was really curious I could PM ron and ask if he is someone of substance but I really dont care that much.
Everyone here knows that juice is as much a part of pro bbing as lifting is. But Ive have seen and personally know more than one person that is natural and look as good as Reeves or is really close. What im trying to say is- Reeves said he was drug free as did Grimick and both of them had achieveable physiques. So, until you come up with some hard facts its hard to believe someone on an internet web board.
Sorry, please pass my pipe back now
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Truly entertaining and enlightening.
I really believe there is some serious fiction writing talent out there,
perhaps not very well articulated, but maybe Get Big is the hidden
spawning bed for would-be Hemingways and Steinbecks.
In particular, I love the way gh15 weaves running commentary with (alleged)
names and facts. And his broken language puts a muddled but clearly
evident politically correct accent on his assertions that Steve Reeves--among
other famous bodybuilding dignitaries from the glorious past--were druggers;
maybe not anything like modern times, but certainly he/they set the bar and
therefore they should be recognized for their contributions.
The other fiction slants I liked were when gh15 would cry foul and claim others
were taking statements out of context; and then cleverly turn around himself
and after some trivial prose, take things out of context himself. It was like
some ingenious bait and switch psycho-drama.
L. Ron Hubbard was a talented science-fiction writer of years past. Maybe
gh15 could follow suit. I mean Hubbard started Scientology and look how
thats grown; celebrities even follow it. But, they don't believe in drugs. Or
defend them.
But, that's neither here nor there. I enjoyed the class in creative writing,
fiction, pre-school 1A.
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I ain't no kid by any means. I've been involved with bodybuilding in one capacity or another since 1949 and have met almost every athlete (that includes Bob Hoffman, the Weiders, and Dan Lurie) mentioned in these posts and have discussed this topic many times with a good number of them in open forums and in private conversatons over a brew or two. Or too, too many.
And those conversatons include the likes of Steve Reeves and Bill Starr, both of whom were/are beyond question in my opinion.
I first met Steve and a couple of his friends when I was a little kid and saw him many times at his peak during the summer weekends on the Russian River in Northern California. I also had the opportunity to spend a few days with him and his girlfriend when he appeared as a Special Guest at a function I was promoting.
We spent many an hour sightseeing in a limo, so many topics were discussed ..... his days as a kid in California, his mom, his love of horses, Ralph Edwards, his show business career, and his training.
At one point he got remorseful and simply stated that the chemicals had ruined the sport and that he'd like to see it return to how it was when he was a youngster.
His mom was interviewed once for a local newspaper (Oakland) and she claimed that Steve never had a cold nor a cavity and the writer of that article inferred that he was genetically perfect.
I never did ask him if he knew Joe and Ben Weider but I seriously doubt that that is a reality. The Weiders were busy publishing magazines on the east coast and were nothing compared to where they stand today. I could be wrong but I highly doubt it.
Anyone ever see those initial Weider publications?
It is my understanding that "roids" were relatively non-existant until sometime prior to the end of WWII and were used to speed up the recovery process for those US soldiers who suffered from burns while fighting in the Pacific. In fact, most of those little pills were dispensed at the Burn Clinic at the Tripler Army Hospital in Hawaii and never used by athletes until about six (6) years after the war.
Bill Starr might be able offer more reliable and interesting information about this time in history regarding the initial use of chemicals by US athletes, but my knowledge of that subject ends here unless I refer to countless rumors.
Bill should write a book about this industry and his involvement. It would make one hell of a great read from one heck of a great person. We discussed it often.
I firmly believe that Reeves never took steroids of any kind. One reason is that "he didn't have too".
And to the best of my knowledge, they were relatively unknown by US athletes until the early 60's and back then we called them "little blue footballs" which were easy to get at any drugstore. (Based on my memory.)_
Got more to say, but gotta move on out and walk the dog.
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Great to read your post, stuntmovie. And semper fi, guy. You and
I had many great exchanges in other threads about the good 'ol days,
the Corps, Nam, Caption Walker...I loved it all. And of course, your
great iron game flashbacks.
Hope all is well with you--and your dog--and life is treating you well.
S.F.
Jay
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I ain't no kid by any means. I've been involved with bodybuilding in one capacity or another since 1949 and have met almost every athlete (that includes Bob Hoffman, the Weiders, and Dan Lurie) mentioned in these posts and have discussed this topic many times with a good number of them in open forums and in private conversatons over a brew or two. Or too, too many.
And those conversatons include the likes of Steve Reeves and Bill Starr, both of whom were/are beyond question in my opinion.
I first met Steve and a couple of his friends when I was a little kid and saw him many times at his peak during the summer weekends on the Russian River in Northern California. I also had the opportunity to spend a few days with him and his girlfriend when he appeared as a Special Guest at a function I was promoting.
We spent many an hour sightseeing in a limo, so many topics were discussed ..... his days as a kid in California, his mom, his love of horses, Ralph Edwards, his show business career, and his training.
At one point he got remorseful and simply stated that the chemicals had ruined the sport and that he'd like to see it return to how it was when he was a youngster.
His mom was interviewed once for a local newspaper (Oakland) and she claimed that Steve never had a cold nor a cavity and the writer of that article inferred that he was genetically perfect.
I never did ask him if he knew Joe and Ben Weider but I seriously doubt that that is a reality. The Weiders were busy publishing magazines on the east coast and were nothing compared to where they stand today. I could be wrong but I highly doubt it.
Anyone ever see those initial Weider publications?
It is my understanding that "roids" were relatively non-existant until sometime prior to the end of WWII and were used to speed up the recovery process for those US soldiers who suffered from burns while fighting in the Pacific. In fact, most of those little pills were dispensed at the Burn Clinic at the Tripler Army Hospital in Hawaii and never used by athletes until about six (6) years after the war.
Bill Starr might be able offer more reliable and interesting information about this time in history regarding the initial use of chemicals by US athletes, but my knowledge of that subject ends here unless I refer to countless rumors.
Bill should write a book about this industry and his involvement. It would make one hell of a great read from one heck of a great person. We discussed it often.
I firmly believe that Reeves never took steroids of any kind. One reason is that "he didn't have too".
And to the best of my knowledge, they were relatively unknown by US athletes until the early 60's and back then we called them "little blue footballs" which were easy to get at any drugstore. (Based on my memory.)_
Got more to say, but gotta move on out and walk the dog.
again ...ignorance is bliss...shows how credulous u were /are when it comes to bb. Gh15...served it for you right on the plate and u are still in denial. Anyone who knows anything about the industry and athletes in general will get what gh15 is talking about. It's like this : we all got bits and pieces and gh15 kinda puts the puzzle togetrher in front of you. enjoy.
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The worst thing about boards such as this is that we are not accountable for our input.
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you are a newcomer of sorts...hell...there are even veterans in denial...
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you are a newcomer of sorts...hell...there are even veterans in denial...
The problem with most of you on here is that you have no actual idea what you are talking about when it comes to what happened in the 50's, 60's, 70's and even the 80's. You read or you hear it from someone who themselves weren't even there. GH15 is not an expert at all. To date not one person on GetBig knows who he is. He talks allot and says allot but in reality he was not there. I for one was there. And I know Stuntmovie and have since 1989. I know exactly his history in regards to bodybuilding. He keep stelling me not to say some things as much as I want to. But, I guarantee that there are NOT many people on Getbig that knows or has lived in the BB industry as long as he has. His memory may be faded in somethings but in most it is perfect. His stories blow mine away. The pictures he has and the memories he has are unmatched by few. GH15 does say allot of stuff on here expecting everyone to just take his word for it. Yet in most cases he has no proof or even met the people he is talking about. How old is he. NO ONE knows who he is. He would be allot more crediable if just one person knew who he was and we knew who that person was.
WHats funny on here is that if someone has any muscle at all, most people think they are on steroids. It funny as hell. I was 247 fairly ripped and very strong before I took anything. Steve Reeves was not big at all. He looked great. But he does not have a steroid users body. Not everyone is stupid.
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onlyme...you have been arund the block a couple of hundred times ..and i'm sure u are familiar with the stuff bbers took so when gh15 comes with very specific stuff you still don't buy it?...i talked about what gh15 is writing about with one of the top pro's from late 80's early 90's and confirmed everysingle one of the things he talked about...i think he is so on point it's childish to argue it.
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Onlyme's identity was revealed on these forums, no secret.
Stuntmovie's identity has not been revealed on the forums, though through personal communication with Stuntmovie and Onlyme's endorsement of Stuntmovie, and by knowing a bit about the history of this iron endeavor, I am usually able to catch the scratches in the falsetto speech of most people. So far I have been unable to snare Stuntmovie's statements, and I am convinced he has played a major role in the evolution of the events he addresses.
Because a substance existed during someone's lifetime does not prove who may have used that substance -whether it was steroids or soda pop.
I have no idea whether Reeves used steroids- I suspect he did not. My position requires me to prove nothing. The affirmative has the burden of proof, and innuendo and suspicion and rumor do not compose truth, no matter who offers them as such.
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joe roark..what do you think about the rumours that steve reeves was bisexual?
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I think rumours are rumors however it is bi-spelled.
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onlyme...the fact that u question what gh15 is writing about shows how little you know about nutrition and hormones. period.
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I think rumours are rumors however it is bi-spelled.
thanks, life is about learning.
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Back in 1999....I met a gentleman that had finished behind Steve Reeves in a contest. I didn't recognize his name & actually we started talking about bodybuilding in passing as we were both waiting. I did look up his name later & he was infact who he said he was. He was friends of Steve's & recently visited him at his ranch. He went on & on how no one was built like steve especially his broad shoulders & narrow waist that gave him that V-Taper look. He knew a lot of the other old timers pretty well & only entered one contest out of encouragement by Steve & other friends. He felt he just wasn't good enough so after the one contest, ended his competitive desires.
I made a comment on how things back then were natural & how those guys could build a physique w/o any chemical influence like guys today.
He looked at me, shook his head & said that he knew first hand that this wasn't so. I was shocked...actually I had that "what?" look on my face & he just said "Oh...don't get me wrong....it's not like what you're thinking....it was purely experimentation back then".
Needless to say...it changed my whole outlook on bodybuilding from that day forward. His wife walked up & said "what are you talking about"....he replied..."the old days of bodybuilding". She confirmed that her husband was one of the old guys from the muscle beach era.
I always believe Steve was natural up to this point. This guy also claimed to be a close friends, talked close details about Steve & his Ranch, so I doubt he would lie....but you never can tell about people you meet in casual conversations. His wife sealed the fact that they were friends of Steve....but wasn't standing right there when the talk of steroids was being talked about.
My mind was changed right then & there....but you know something....it doesn't really matter to me.
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onlyme...the fact that u question what gh15 is writing about shows how little you know about nutrition and hormones. period.
#1 no where ever have I said I was an expert on anything especially nutrition or hormones. I did what I did and got what I got. All I did was lift. If Ric Zumwalt never told me to take steroids cause everyone else was I would have never even thought about it. And even when I did all I took was Test 200mg Cyp. Nothing else. Diet or nutrition, never had to worry about it. I weighed 300 lbs at my top shape and was athletic enough and limber enough to bench close to 600, do the splits, waterski, compete in A & B racquetball contests and still put my leg behind my head. I just did what I did. I didn't need to pay attention to stuff. All I needed to do was be strong and quick. And I think I was. GH15, you and I bet most others know more than me about nutrition, roids, hormones or just about anything else. But, knowing all that doesn't mean much unless it is applied or used. Like most things in life for me everythign came natural. I don't need to think to do allot of things I just do them.
All the talk people do on here about how much and what kind of roid should I take or train this way or train that way,do this or do that means nothign to me. I just do it. And in the majority of instances I will or at least would have beaten anyone who did all this thinking crap.
GH15 I can tell knows his shit about some stuff. The problem I am having this time is how he is talking about a true legend like Steve like he 100% knows cause he was there shooting Steve up himslef. I would be surprsied if he even eve met Steve. Then I listen to Stuntmovie who I know knew Steve and I know that he is 100% truthful cause he has no reason to lie and generally has proof say Steve did not, I have to go with Stunt. Maybe just maybe Steve experimented with them but in no way did they do anything to make him look the way he looked. He was not a massive guy at all.
Anyway, from last reports I thought Steve was dead and I find it pretty low for GH15 to come on here and talk about a guy who from most if not all angles looked like a great guy with a great build.
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Amen!, Brother Keith! Well stated!
Only, did you know Ralph Countryman? Just got a phone call that he is not doing too well healthwise. Anyone got an accurate update?
Knny, there are only a handful of guys still living who actually trained and hung with Reeves back in the 40's and if the individual you spoke to lives in Las Vegas, he is truthful about his association with Steve but I would be surprised if he had personal knowledge about the subject matter and Steve's use of same.
As most of you know, George Eiffferman (Las Vegas) was close to Reeves but we were asked to keep the info on Reeves passing from him because it would have hit him hard and he was already in bad enough shape in the hospital, so I know it wasn't GE.
Thanks for your input, Knny.
For one and all... Is Jack Dillenger still among the living? Roy Hilligen? Clancy Ross?
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kudos for your acomplishments keith...i played A racquetball too...it's a great sport. I trully believe both reeves and grimek experimented with hormones and i think gh15 even offered to have someone call the zieglers to confirm it.
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I believe the stuff(aas) has been around for a while, and if Reeves and Grimek experimented, whats the big deal? People are making it sound like the Pope was caught performing satanic rituals or something...
Reeves was a great bber with a great physique, and he represented bbing very, very well. What he did or didnt do in his life, is his, and his family's and friends biz.
Man passed on, respect the memory.
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I believe the stuff(aas) has been around for a while, and if Reeves and Grimek experimented, whats the big deal? People are making it sound like the Pope was caught performing satanic rituals or something...
Reeves was a great bber with a great physique, and he represented bbing very, very well. What he did or didnt do in his life, is his, and his family's and friends biz.
Man passed on, respect the memory.
excellent point...however...GH15's point was shedding light on what bodybuilding really IS !...Not what we think it is.
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excellent point...however...GH15's point was shedding light on what bodybuilding really IS !...Not what we think it is.
No beef with what gh15 is stating.
What I'm trying to say is, if indeed Reeves took aas, or God-forbid(for all the purists)Grimek did too, I'm not shocked nor surprised, and understand its a part of bbing.
Reeves with or without hormones had great genes, if he took aas I find it informative too, but some people are starting to belittle an individual that did no wrong to the sport, quite the opposite, and as far as I know, his public persona was one very well carried, that gave bbing a lot of good cred.
As I said before, what he did to achieve what he did, is irrelevant, and the other dude asking if he was bi, what kind of q is that? If he was, do you really wanna know, and who cares?
As I said, take it as a given he took/administered hormones, no big deal , and respect a good embassador of bbing's memory.
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I was under the impression that the History section here at GetBig was for facts and not a place for innuendo and suspicion and rumor?
If Reeves took drugs, then offer proof, not second or third hand 'reportings' of this man told that man that he heard... If you cannot offer proof, then your case will fall on its own lack of merit.
There are several sections on GetBig where blathering is tolerated, and sometimes seems to cancer on itself and multiply. This section hopefully can be different from those areas.
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I was under the impression that the History section here at GetBig was for facts and not a place for innuendo and suspicion and rumor?
If Reeves took drugs, then offer proof, not second or third hand 'reportings' of this man told that man that he heard... If you cannot offer proof, then your case will fall on its own lack of merit.
There are several sections on GetBig where blathering is tolerated, and sometimes seems to cancer on itself and multiply. This section hopefully can be different from those areas.
You are right Joe and I try to keep all the bullshit out of here but this thread is something to talk about. And there are always two sides to a story. And from that a conclusion can be made by all. SO far we have a few saying Reeves took roids and a few saying no. The people who are saying no are people who actually were invovled with BB back in those days and lived them while the people pointing towards Reeves using are young basically using what they heard or believe. Nowadays it seems people think that if you have any muscle at all you must be on roids. I find that very funny. But, hey these opinions usually come from people who aren't really involved or know much more than what they read or hear ina locker room.
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You are right Joe and I try to keep all the bullshit out of here but this thread is something to talk about. And there are always two sides to a story. And from that a conclusion can be made by all. SO far we have a few saying Reeves took roids and a few saying no. The people who are saying no are people who actually were invovled with BB back in those days and lived them while the people pointing towards Reeves using are young basically using what they heard or believe. Nowadays it seems people think that if you have any muscle at all you must be on roids. I find that very funny. But, hey these opinions usually come from people who aren't really involved or know much more than what they read or hear ina locker room.
True.
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Amen!, Brother Keith! Well stated!
Only, did you know Ralph Countryman? Just got a phone call that he is not doing too well healthwise. Anyone got an accurate update?
Knny, there are only a handful of guys still living who actually trained and hung with Reeves back in the 40's and if the individual you spoke to lives in Las Vegas, he is truthful about his association with Steve but I would be surprised if he had personal knowledge about the subject matter and Steve's use of same.
As most of you know, George Eiffferman (Las Vegas) was close to Reeves but we were asked to keep the info on Reeves passing from him because it would have hit him hard and he was already in bad enough shape in the hospital, so I know it wasn't GE.
Thanks for your input, Knny.
For one and all... Is Jack Dillenger still among the living? Roy Hilligen? Clancy Ross?
Hey Stunt,
This was back in 99 & the guy was in his 70's. He may be dead now....but back then he was very much a live. He lived (back then) in the Grossmont/La Mesa/Alpine area. Not exactly sure of the exact area because it's been so long. He told me about Steve's ranch in Escondido or I believe it was more located in the Valley Center area.
The thing is....I had a hard time not believing him because most old guys just don't exaggerate or make stuff up. I asked him if he knew Bill Golumbick because he competed around that time frame & owned Parkway Fitness (which is a cool old gym in La Mesa). He confirmed he knew who he was but said he competed & came on the scene 'after' him in time frame.
Who knows Stunt....it really doesn't matter. Alot of these older guys are passing away now & a bit of iron history is slipping away. What I will say....is the older we get....I know for a fact our views of history & exactly how it happened can be distorted. Not saying this guy was losing his mind....but maybe he was mistaken. He seemed to have such great admiration for Steve...so I doubt he was saying such things just in spite of him.
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Thanks, Knny. Your post made my mind start thinking and this could turn out to be a worthwhile idea providing we could ID the bullshit, the rumors, and the facts about the "sport" as such before we make a submission.
We could start with the 40's and work up through the years from there and ID each statement we make as a definite fact (DF), a rumor (R), a somebody told me this (STMT), or an "as I think I remember it this way (ITIRITW).
A totally bullshit statement would be ID'd as "total bullshit" (TB).
There are still enough people on here that could submit enough information to document the true history of bodybuilding from the 40's onward.
We'd have to rely on Bill Starr and Jeff Everson to complete the story if we wanted to go back through history any further. Many years ago I gave Jeff volumns of physical culture publications that went way back to the early 1900's. Some of it was pretty wierd stuff that would be humorous and interesting reading today. I'll stop by and see if I can do the research.
I'll set up a new topic tonite and hope that enough of us can submit enough factual details over time that will offer a REAL documentaion about this sport of Bodybuilding.
I think I can start with 1921 .........
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I met George Eiferman in his gym in Las Vegas in the early 90s.
I introduced myself, told him of my background in the field, etc.,
and we ended up discussing many things, much of which centered
around how the iron game WAS and how it had...ummm...
progressed. The one distinct thing I recall George saying (after
bringing up the impact of drugs on the sport, as in competition),
was he said something to the effect that he knew everyone
couldn't be a Steve Reeves but drugs weren't the answer (in
a comparative analogy to older, simpler, less complicated and
competitive times).
The objective journalist in me immediately shot back: "Steve Reeves
of course never took drugs?"
George shot back just as quick with a good natured smirk on his face.
"Are you kidding; with his genetics? Besides, Steve was really into
natural health and foods and the physical culture aspect of body-
building. He would have never taken drugs, especially to impact his
own hormone (test) levels." He said a few other things in basic support
of that; things like he and Steve were close friends; that they had
fun, especially with women, but that even liquor was a distant stranger
to his lips, as well as some so-called cutting edge nutritional products.
He finished it off with something like Reeves treated his body like a
temple. That he would have been the LAST person to even try
something like drugs.
Now, of course, my above quote was not word for word, but it's pretty
close and captures the jest of what he said. George was a very nice,
soft spoken guy and had a reputation that was not tarnished in the
least. And he and Steve were close buddies. Yet, George wasn't the
type of guy to lie; he probably couldn't have if a gun was put to his
head. His integrity was without question.
And George and Steve were buds throughout Steve's competitive
career. Keep in mind too that back in those times and up to the time
I met George, steroids were legal. In otherwords, taking drugs would
have had no lawful or legal impact, therefore, no consequences. If
Reeves would have taken, used, tried, experimented in any way, George
would have known; and if he (Reeves) did, George would have simply
said so.
Also, if Reeves tried the stuff, don't you think others, especially in the
competitive arena would have said so. Listen, in that small community
(bodybuilding) someone would have known and it would have gotten out,
and about. Those other bodybuilders had enough to worry about Reeves'
genetics, let alone outside, artifical enhancements.
I don't share this lightly...but I visited the Reeves Ranch after his death,
taking pictures and doing an extensive expose. I also talked to some
people close to Reeves, including caretakers and even his horse vet.
Steve was actually quite a health fanatic and it was obvious all over the
place, including those who knew him best, including his life partner. He was
so incredibly fussy he had to make his own protein drinks from scratch; he
didn't trust others that much when it came to his own body. He was, shall
we say, extremely conservative and cautious. And he was very proud, strong.
Back in the 80s when he contracted with MD magazine (when they were
calling themselves "Natural") to provide articles and his own limited product
line (extremely modest), he left after they (MD) once again changed their
focus away from the natural to more mainstream. He was strict, legit and
the real deal. Look back at some of those issues and read, my friends. He
hated what drugs had done to the sport and made his opinions very clear.
I'll share something else, when I was editor of Muscle Digest (early 80s),
I had heard through the grapevine that Steve wouldn't even lend his name
to nutritional products because he may not have believed in them or taken
them. The guy couldn't be bought. He was seemingly an extremely straight
shooter. Drugs did not fit into his philosophy. Naturally, truly fit did, but with
hard work and absolute dedication. Drugs to Reeves were totally counter-
dictory to why he started bodybuilding in the first place.
Steve also does NOT fit the profile of a user, in any amounts, in any way.
He also never showed any, as the law refers to, as...patterns of behavior.
Patterns of behavior is used in courts all the time and helps to establish
a timeline of possibles and probables. The mental and medical communities
also use patterns of behavior to help establish facts and ascertain truths
from untruths.
Reeves never has in his personal profile any patterns of behavior that would
indicate or even suggest that he may have been a drug (steroid) user or
even experimentor. It doesn't even romotely fit his M.O.
However, his entire life does illustrate patterns of behavior that suggest
just the opposite. We could go on and on.
In my opinion and I believe in a profound way, this topic does not even
dignify a discourse or argument. It simply is without any logic or merit.
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Well put, Jay. Thanks.
I, too, knew George. In fact I spent some time with him and his new wife in Hawaii and got to know them well.
Once evening we were at an event on the Island of Oahu and Mrs Eiffeman was sitting by my side and grabbed my hand and said, "George and I really appreciate your friendship, ______ , and I hope you don't get too embarassed in these next few moments."
Then George went on stage and took the microphone from Steve and asked me to step on stage and receive a token of his friendship. After a few kind words with me scuffing my feet in front of him, he gave me a silver medallion with his likeness on the front and some commemorative remarks on the back.
Then Mrs Eifferman gave me a big hug and whispered "Thank you for everything from both of us! You're only one of a very few that he's given that medallion to".
Later on I heard that Steve Reeves had one also.
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this has become a very interesting discussion.
i know zero facts and i haven't talked to an actual witness like knny so i won't comment.
i agree with figo. i don't care.
reeves was a pioneer of bbing adn fitness along with grimek. whether they took test, speed, smack, alcohol, coffee, cocaine (well, if they ever took cough syrup or drank cocacola back then we can confirm they took cocaine) or chocolate; it doesn't change my perspective.
they were legends, period!
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I met George Eiferman in his gym in Las Vegas in the early 90s.
I introduced myself, told him of my background in the field, etc.,
and we ended up discussing many things, much of which centered
around how the iron game WAS and how it had...ummm...
progressed. The one distinct thing I recall George saying (after
bringing up the impact of drugs on the sport, as in competition),
was he said something to the effect that he knew everyone
couldn't be a Steve Reeves but drugs weren't the answer (in
a comparative analogy to older, simpler, less complicated and
competitive times).
The objective journalist in me immediately shot back: "Steve Reeves
of course never took drugs?"
George shot back just as quick with a good natured smirk on his face.
"Are you kidding; with his genetics? Besides, Steve was really into
natural health and foods and the physical culture aspect of body-
building. He would have never taken drugs, especially to impact his
own hormone (test) levels." He said a few other things in basic support
of that; things like he and Steve were close friends; that they had
fun, especially with women, but that even liquor was a distant stranger
to his lips, as well as some so-called cutting edge nutritional products.
He finished it off with something like Reeves treated his body like a
temple. That he would have been the LAST person to even try
something like drugs.
Now, of course, my above quote was not word for word, but it's pretty
close and captures the jest of what he said. George was a very nice,
soft spoken guy and had a reputation that was not tarnished in the
least. And he and Steve were close buddies. Yet, George wasn't the
type of guy to lie; he probably couldn't have if a gun was put to his
head. His integrity was without question.
And George and Steve were buds throughout Steve's competitive
career. Keep in mind too that back in those times and up to the time
I met George, steroids were legal. In otherwords, taking drugs would
have had no lawful or legal impact, therefore, no consequences. If
Reeves would have taken, used, tried, experimented in any way, George
would have known; and if he (Reeves) did, George would have simply
said so.
Also, if Reeves tried the stuff, don't you think others, especially in the
competitive arena would have said so. Listen, in that small community
(bodybuilding) someone would have known and it would have gotten out,
and about. Those other bodybuilders had enough to worry about Reeves'
genetics, let alone outside, artifical enhancements.
I don't share this lightly...but I visited the Reeves Ranch after his death,
taking pictures and doing an extensive expose. I also talked to some
people close to Reeves, including caretakers and even his horse vet.
Steve was actually quite a health fanatic and it was obvious all over the
place, including those who knew him best, including his life partner. He was
so incredibly fussy he had to make his own protein drinks from scratch; he
didn't trust others that much when it came to his own body. He was, shall
we say, extremely conservative and cautious. And he was very proud, strong.
Back in the 80s when he contracted with MD magazine (when they were
calling themselves "Natural") to provide articles and his own limited product
line (extremely modest), he left after they (MD) once again changed their
focus away from the natural to more mainstream. He was strict, legit and
the real deal. Look back at some of those issues and read, my friends. He
hated what drugs had done to the sport and made his opinions very clear.
I'll share something else, when I was editor of Muscle Digest (early 80s),
I had heard through the grapevine that Steve wouldn't even lend his name
to nutritional products because he may not have believed in them or taken
them. The guy couldn't be bought. He was seemingly an extremely straight
shooter. Drugs did not fit into his philosophy. Naturally, truly fit did, but with
hard work and absolute dedication. Drugs to Reeves were totally counter-
dictory to why he started bodybuilding in the first place.
Steve also does NOT fit the profile of a user, in any amounts, in any way.
He also never showed any, as the law refers to, as...patterns of behavior.
Patterns of behavior is used in courts all the time and helps to establish
a timeline of possibles and probables. The mental and medical communities
also use patterns of behavior to help establish facts and ascertain truths
from untruths.
Reeves never has in his personal profile any patterns of behavior that would
indicate or even suggest that he may have been a drug (steroid) user or
even experimentor. It doesn't even romotely fit his M.O.
However, his entire life does illustrate patterns of behavior that suggest
just the opposite. We could go on and on.
In my opinion and I believe in a profound way, this topic does not even
dignify a discourse or argument. It simply is without any logic or merit.
good post
I agree with you....except I am still baffled by two things....one....the line I highlighted & two, the conversation that I had with the other gentleman.
I think to believe Steve was natural but not 100% & still believe he would try things atleast once out of natural curiosity & not knowing that it couldn't be anything different (at the time) than another training herb or supplement.
I will say your post was very well written & you seemed to search for some actual facts w/o actually talking to Steve himself. Your findings just may be 100% spot on.
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knny17, I hate these web tags but I don't know your name so excuse me.
Yes, Steve's life partner would be the woman he shared his life with for, I
believe, apx. 12 years prior to his death. Her name was Deborah and without
going into depth, because I want to respect her in her absence, I think she
would actually laugh at the assertion that Steve ever took, or probably even
tried, drugs/steroids. He pretty much followed his life like an expert archer,
and seldom deferred from his target and bullseyes, which were health, fitness,
muscular body strength.
And, if he did ever TRY, TRY something like steroids, it would have been a quick
hit and miss, or forget attempt. But no, even that makes NO sense with him.
He was quite bright, especially concerning matters of the body, and knowing
the active ingredient of steroids and their impact on added strength and
muscular bulk...he just didn't need it, not even want it. Check his "Classic
Physique" book and he thought size for size sakes was wrong.
But, and personally that word does not belong in this conversation and equation, and IF, another word that doesn't, Steve did TRY steroids it wouldn't
have made a centimeter comparison to the buttload fulls taken by others,
especally those who just can't accept that someone like Reeves never did.
It also would have gone against traditional and conventional wisdom of his times. And he was very much BOTH. He would have known that it was
artifical enhancement/replacement of hormone/test and he would have dropped
the idea or the "experiment" quicker than bodybuilding at 24 when he left the sport for Hollywood. And at 24 and plenty of his own hormones and genetics working for him, not to mention hardcore training, he'd figure WHY? And he'd be right.
One more thing. In apx. 1975 when talking to John Grimek on the phone upon
turning in my story on World Wrestwrestling out of Petaluma, we were joking
about this one competitor I wrote about who was...slightly crazy, for lack of
a better term, and John said something like, "well, maybe the guy is on drugs
or something and can't rely on his own abilties? It seems a lot of guys are
doing that these days." We talked and joked some more (Grimek had a great,
great sense of humor), and he hit upon training hard and that usually seperated
the men from the boys. Reeves came up and his visit to York. John was really
impressed with Steve and how hard he trained and absolutely dedicated him-
self to the task at hand. Then he said something like, if he had (that wristwrestler) the work ethic and diet strictness of Reeves, he wouldn't ever
have to take drugs. John Carl Grimek would have given an absolute NO to the premise that Steve Reeves would have ever taken or even tried steroids. I'd
bet my 60-year-old butt on it! I think it would have been the same case with
pretty much everyone from that era, but especially those bodybuilders into the
physical culture aspect of the sport, like Reeves. He was hardcore natural, as
in, per given by genes and effort.
If, again, IF, is a dirty two-letter word here for this alleged debate, Reeves
ever tried drugs/steroids, it would'nt have been enough to make a piss-ant
grow.
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sorry to be blunt...but you are not familiar with hormones/hystory of hormones and such...if your argument is what reeves wrote in his book. Another example at how brilliant the weiders created this wonderfull illussion we call bodybuilding.
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knny17, I hate these web tags but I don't know your name so excuse me.
Yes, Steve's life partner would be the woman he shared his life with for, I
believe, apx. 12 years prior to his death. Her name was Deborah and without
going into depth, because I want to respect her in her absence, I think she
would actually laugh at the assertion that Steve ever took, or probably even
tried, drugs/steroids. He pretty much followed his life like an expert archer,
and seldom deferred from his target and bullseyes, which were health, fitness,
muscular body strength.
And, if he did ever TRY, TRY something like steroids, it would have been a quick
hit and miss, or forget attempt. But no, even that makes NO sense with him.
He was quite bright, especially concerning matters of the body, and knowing
the active ingredient of steroids and their impact on added strength and
muscular bulk...he just didn't need it, not even want it. Check his "Classic
Physique" book and he thought size for size sakes was wrong.
But, and personally that word does not belong in this conversation and equation, and IF, another word that doesn't, Steve did TRY steroids it wouldn't
have made a centimeter comparison to the buttload fulls taken by others,
especally those who just can't accept that someone like Reeves never did.
It also would have gone against traditional and conventional wisdom of his times. And he was very much BOTH. He would have known that it was
artifical enhancement/replacement of hormone/test and he would have dropped
the idea or the "experiment" quicker than bodybuilding at 24 when he left the sport for Hollywood. And at 24 and plenty of his own hormones and genetics working for him, not to mention hardcore training, he'd figure WHY? And he'd be right.
One more thing. In apx. 1975 when talking to John Grimek on the phone upon
turning in my story on World Wrestwrestling out of Petaluma, we were joking
about this one competitor I wrote about who was...slightly crazy, for lack of
a better term, and John said something like, "well, maybe the guy is on drugs
or something and can't rely on his own abilties? It seems a lot of guys are
doing that these days." We talked and joked some more (Grimek had a great,
great sense of humor), and he hit upon training hard and that usually seperated
the men from the boys. Reeves came up and his visit to York. John was really
impressed with Steve and how hard he trained and absolutely dedicated him-
self to the task at hand. Then he said something like, if he had (that wristwrestler) the work ethic and diet strictness of Reeves, he wouldn't ever
have to take drugs. John Carl Grimek would have given an absolute NO to the premise that Steve Reeves would have ever taken or even tried steroids. I'd
bet my 60-year-old butt on it! I think it would have been the same case with
pretty much everyone from that era, but especially those bodybuilders into the
physical culture aspect of the sport, like Reeves. He was hardcore natural, as
in, per given by genes and effort.
If, again, IF, is a dirty two-letter word here for this alleged debate, Reeves
ever tried drugs/steroids, it would'nt have been enough to make a piss-ant
grow.
this is the last time i respond to this topic after some of you beg me to in private messeges.
i chose to quote this specific dude for no particular reason so dont get all offended on me.
if,,when,,why,,where,, all this words dont matter. the only place i would put the IF word is in this sentence,,,:if you cant see for yourself what it takes to be the leader of the pack when it comes to bodybuilding,,,then you dont know your sport/industry. infact then it was the leader of the pack and few other lucky ones,,,now days it is any one in the pack,,,even the local thomas county georgia ymca night champ is on.
you put lots of nonesense,,i knew,,i trained,,,myfriend was eating dinner with,,my granma cooked,,it dont matter.
steve reeves never had kids
steve reeves was absorbed with himself
steve reeves was a womanizer ,,which i support in a way,,
steve reeves was experiementing with hormones
steve reeves was a loner,,no one knew his personality well because he was a loner that liked animals more than people
steve reeves walked day and night thinking how he can make himself bigger (yes 220 6% in 1940 was very big and still is to this day even at 6'1)
lastly,,ingeneral for all of you lifters of the late 70s-2000s,,,,when you enter a gym tellin your buddies and hoes around that you are not jacked and you dont touch juice,,you gotta remember that growth, igf1lr3 and insulin are A HELL OF A LOT better than juice for building muscle/size and also are legal for use for "research" in many states and countries around the world.
so simply get off the olympus my friends,,ive seen it all,,heard it all,,,every day we got 10 steve reeves come to us buying their goodies and then email us 2 hours later asking how come its not there yet,,,this is body-building,,,every one for himself.
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Maybe longtime ironager, Australian gym owner and equipment designer and
competitive bodybuilder himself, Vince Basile, said it best:
Everybody's an expert in the iron game.
gh15, you just recited a few points about Reeves well known and acknowledged by others. And his personal history bears this out, no secret
there.
But it has nothing to do with Reeves taking drugs; and of course, based on your own theories and points, proves zero.
Also, using philosophy of... if A then B, then B then C = D; yours just comes
around again to A. In otherwords, we come back around 360 degrees and
we haven't progressed any further towards our, or a, distination.
Nothing personal, but it seems your last comment about all those "Reeves"
types coming in, etc., etc., indicates you are in the drug or supplement
industry, and seem to have some issues with bodybuilding or bodybuilders
(and understandable...). But with the 10 Reeves' reference, maybe your
issues don't stop there and are much deeper? Some of your comments were
very revealing and I think I may have some more glues as to where you are
coming from. However, I personally don't believe you have headed in the right
direction. I would guess though that you are definately older than me (60+),
are not American (or at least American-born; not a value-judgement, just an
observation), and have had extensive exposure (for lack of a better term) to
the bodybuilding experience, in perhaps various capacities. You may even be
an industry player, old, new or both, that has disguised his true identity by
writing in a way that would askew the casual observer or even the veteran
investigator. Your stumbling around doesn't blur my thinking or opinions, tho.
I'd bet a whey shake that I'm 100% right, or at least 75%.
And sevastase, I'm not familiar with hormones, huh? My reference to hormones
was, as in...testosterone, the male hormone. My reference to the Reeves book
was in relation to that and all the other points I made. That's it. If you want to argue at least keep facts in context. And what did that have to do with the
price of tea in China? I wasn't trying to split the atom or further quantify the
main ingredient that defines a man, I just provided a little analogy.
'Nuff said.
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;)
-
;)
Best physique awesome find!
-
I met George Eiferman in his gym in Las Vegas in the early 90s.
I introduced myself, told him of my background in the field, etc.,
and we ended up discussing many things, much of which centered
around how the iron game WAS and how it had...ummm...
progressed. The one distinct thing I recall George saying (after
bringing up the impact of drugs on the sport, as in competition),
was he said something to the effect that he knew everyone
couldn't be a Steve Reeves but drugs weren't the answer (in
a comparative analogy to older, simpler, less complicated and
competitive times).
The objective journalist in me immediately shot back: "Steve Reeves
of course never took drugs?"
George shot back just as quick with a good natured smirk on his face.
"Are you kidding; with his genetics? Besides, Steve was really into
natural health and foods and the physical culture aspect of body-
building. He would have never taken drugs, especially to impact his
own hormone (test) levels." He said a few other things in basic support
of that; things like he and Steve were close friends; that they had
fun, especially with women, but that even liquor was a distant stranger
to his lips, as well as some so-called cutting edge nutritional products.
He finished it off with something like Reeves treated his body like a
temple. That he would have been the LAST person to even try
something like drugs.
Now, of course, my above quote was not word for word, but it's pretty
close and captures the jest of what he said. George was a very nice,
soft spoken guy and had a reputation that was not tarnished in the
least. And he and Steve were close buddies. Yet, George wasn't the
type of guy to lie; he probably couldn't have if a gun was put to his
head. His integrity was without question.
And George and Steve were buds throughout Steve's competitive
career. Keep in mind too that back in those times and up to the time
I met George, steroids were legal. In otherwords, taking drugs would
have had no lawful or legal impact, therefore, no consequences. If
Reeves would have taken, used, tried, experimented in any way, George
would have known; and if he (Reeves) did, George would have simply
said so.
Also, if Reeves tried the stuff, don't you think others, especially in the
competitive arena would have said so. Listen, in that small community
(bodybuilding) someone would have known and it would have gotten out,
and about. Those other bodybuilders had enough to worry about Reeves'
genetics, let alone outside, artifical enhancements.
I don't share this lightly...but I visited the Reeves Ranch after his death,
taking pictures and doing an extensive expose. I also talked to some
people close to Reeves, including caretakers and even his horse vet.
Steve was actually quite a health fanatic and it was obvious all over the
place, including those who knew him best, including his life partner. He was
so incredibly fussy he had to make his own protein drinks from scratch; he
didn't trust others that much when it came to his own body. He was, shall
we say, extremely conservative and cautious. And he was very proud, strong.
Back in the 80s when he contracted with MD magazine (when they were
calling themselves "Natural") to provide articles and his own limited product
line (extremely modest), he left after they (MD) once again changed their
focus away from the natural to more mainstream. He was strict, legit and
the real deal. Look back at some of those issues and read, my friends. He
hated what drugs had done to the sport and made his opinions very clear.
I'll share something else, when I was editor of Muscle Digest (early 80s),
I had heard through the grapevine that Steve wouldn't even lend his name
to nutritional products because he may not have believed in them or taken
them. The guy couldn't be bought. He was seemingly an extremely straight
shooter. Drugs did not fit into his philosophy. Naturally, truly fit did, but with
hard work and absolute dedication. Drugs to Reeves were totally counter-
dictory to why he started bodybuilding in the first place.
Steve also does NOT fit the profile of a user, in any amounts, in any way.
He also never showed any, as the law refers to, as...patterns of behavior.
Patterns of behavior is used in courts all the time and helps to establish
a timeline of possibles and probables. The mental and medical communities
also use patterns of behavior to help establish facts and ascertain truths
from untruths.
Reeves never has in his personal profile any patterns of behavior that would
indicate or even suggest that he may have been a drug (steroid) user or
even experimentor. It doesn't even romotely fit his M.O.
However, his entire life does illustrate patterns of behavior that suggest
just the opposite. We could go on and on.
In my opinion and I believe in a profound way, this topic does not even
dignify a discourse or argument. It simply is without any logic or merit.
Very nice post, actually one of the most enjoyable to read in this whole thread. No accusions, no 'absolute truth', just a good story.
Thank you.
-
Great pic Knny187!
Actually autographed by both legends.
And here I thought my pic with Reg Park and autograph was the bomb...
-
this is the last time i respond to this topic after some of you beg me to in private messeges. Thank you. ;D
steve reeves never had kids
steve reeves was absorbed with himself
steve reeves was a womanizer ,,which i support in a way,,
steve reeves was experiementing with hormones
steve reeves was a loner,,no one knew his personality well because he was a loner that liked animals more than people
steve reeves walked day and night thinking how he can make himself bigger (yes 220 6% in 1940 was very big and still is to this day even at 6'1)
Where are your arguments? All you do ist just state some opinion and then say the reason that you stated it makes it a fact!
Where is the connection between having no kids and being egocentric and doing roids?
I know many people who have no kids, you want to tell me they are all on drugs?
Are you telling me all loners are on steroids? Everyone who wants to get bigger is??
You don't have on argument, and that's why you stopped posting in this thread.
I'm glad some other people turned this around again.
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Where are your arguments? All you do ist just state some opinion and then say the reason that you stated it makes it a fact!
Where is the connection between having no kids and being egocentric and doing roids?
I know many people who have no kids, you want to tell me they are all on drugs?Are you telling me all loners are on steroids? Everyone who wants to get bigger is??
You don't have on argument, and that's why you stopped posting in this thread.
I'm glad some other people turned this around again.
I know many people who have kids that might start taking drugs! ;D
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I know many people who have kids that might start taking drugs! ;D
haha, good catch.
-
Thanks much, DonkeyKong. I really appreciate your words.
You know its one thing to try and write something that attempts to make
sense, and make every effort to carefully articulate an argument/debate, using whatever is at your disposal and put into the proper context, and properly
referenced, i.e., according to...in my opinion, so and so said..., etc.
But its quite another to have someone reading it, pick it up as delivered, and
totally understand the message and points, etc. It make the effort expanded
worthwhile. And DK, it takes some insight and intelligence on your part (no
reflection on me, no pat on the back, just appreciation).
Also, it was implied earlier on that certain aspects of argument were not valid
because they were hearsay or second-hand, etc. Well, if that point is to be
brought out then it should apply all-around, shouldn't it??
And if we are debating a story with a premise of accusation and NO FACTS then we are reduced to only using these in our arguments, aren't
we? Again, if reason, logic, common sense, hearsay, opinions based con-
versations and everything else that you can throw into the mix helps to
form/create patterns of behavior, then at least you can formulate answers
and come to conclusions. And if you have enough you can reasonably conclude
that you hve reached decisions beyond any reasonable doubt.
Considering the limited resources we had and used for this debate, and
reflecting upon the fact that there are many many more people and stories
out there that would support Reeves never taking drugs as opposed to those
that wouldn't, I would surmise that we've reached that...reasonable doubt.
-
Where are your arguments? All you do ist just state some opinion and then say the reason that you stated it makes it a fact!
Where is the connection between having no kids and being egocentric and doing roids?
I know many people who have no kids, you want to tell me they are all on drugs?
Are you telling me all loners are on steroids? Everyone who wants to get bigger is??
You don't have on argument, and that's why you stopped posting in this thread.
I'm glad some other people turned this around again.
the reason i stopped writing on this post is that i only come on this boards and check the gossip section,,as you can see anytime i have something to say i write it with out trying to be too polite,,,
my point has been made long ago the day i was writing this thread,,,it never changed since and the thread remained here because people are not stupid.
the facts i mentioned about reeves (no kids,,self centered,,womanizer,,,loner) were mentioned because those are the only things known about him as an absolute and the "pattern of behavior" you love to mention here is nothing more than big words on small screen.
if you wanna talk about real pattern of behaviors of people who do bodybuilding,,,you gotta look in the mirror at every single competetive bodybuilder on earth,,,and even the none competetve,,, the patterns of behavior are very very similar to all and steve reeves WAS one of us. was always one of us,,will always be one of us.
he used a lot less,,,a lot rougher compounds,,,alot more experiemnting,,,alot less knowledge,,but oh he had his share of hormones.
im kinda surprized redbaron (if its him) wouldl throw himself into this discussion trying to articulate something for the defense of reeves with the amazing genetics that didnt even see 90,,or 80,,,let him rest my friend,,let himrest
*jerald ford = amazing genetics ;)
**donky i hope you love my answer i worked on it 2 min and few seconds and again forgot to check for spellings :D
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Gerald Ford is 93 years old & counting...gonna surpass Reagan as oldest living US President ever. :o
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sorry to be blunt...but you are not familiar with hormones/hystory of hormones and such...if your argument is what reeves wrote in his book. Another example at how brilliant the weiders created this wonderfull illussion we call bodybuilding.
Unfortunately you werent around back in the day so your opinion on what Reeves did or didnt do is no more valid than mine. But for some reason you love to ride G15s coat tails. Actually you dont seem to know anymore about bbing than anyone else on this board.
G15 by the way you speak I can tell you werent around then either( I dont think you ever claimed to be) So once again your opinion is just that. I know, I know you have been there and done everything regarding bbing and juice. But unless you have something like cold hard facts your argument doesnt hold much water!
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Maybe someone on here knows someone who was there, that could clarify matter. Although, as I've said before, either way I'm not losing sleep.
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So what is the truth? Is gh15 to be believed or are the allegations/insinuations all just some hot air on his part?
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Re-read all the previous posts, Golden.
What do you think? Make a decision. You have enough info there to make
a small book.
But it's your call. Will it be a fiction or non-fiction account.
-
I for one am a non-believer and see nothing to prove that Steve was on the juice at any time. Just a bunch of comments that he'd get upset enough about to call "Foul" and possibly seek legal action if he was still alive.
I knew Steve personally and spent some time with him on a couple of occasions before he passed away and I even asked him for his views on the present roid situation without asking him if he ever took them himself.
As I said before, he was pretty sad about the use of roids in bodybuilding.
These are the facts from my personal contact with Steve, so do with them as you may. I would be darn surprised if he ever took them and have not heard that he ever did from anyone who ever knew him personally.
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I for one am a non-believer and see nothing to prove that Steve was on the juice at any time. Just a bunch of comments that he'd get upset enough about to call "Foul" and possibly seek legal action if he was still alive.
I knew Steve personally and spent some time with him on a couple of occasions before he passed away and I even asked him for his views on the present roid situation without asking him if he ever took them himself.
As I said before, he was pretty sad about the use of roids in bodybuilding.
These are the facts from my personal contact with Steve, so do with them as you may. I would be darn surprised if he ever took them and have not heard that he ever did from anyone who ever knew him personally.
you're in a better position than most to make a judgement call, but it appears the jury's still out on this one.
in any case, one can certainly see why steve was becoming somewhat distressed at what he was seeing.
he was alive to see bodybuilding become an industry more obsessed with drugs and size for size's sake than physical culture. something that he was passionate about it became a freakshow before his very eyes and that's gotta hurt.
the cold hard reality is that every athletic endeavour has to progress. it's the nature of the beast. jumpers MUST jump higher, sprinters MUST sprint faster, throwers MUST throw further...you get the point.
if he did use testosterone or anything else, there IS one thing we can all be certain of, that it wasn't in the same stratosphere as what was to become.
is that a defence to his (possible) use of testosterone? no, but imo he doesn't need one. he probably drank alcohol and coke (which contained cocaine back then) 2 FAR more harmful drugs than testosterone and no one would have thought anything of it.
face it, this is about cheating. people want to believe that their heroes never did ANYTHING so human as using an aid to make things EASIER. heroes don't do that, they do things HARD man. fight wars, famine, move mountains and shit,then they get drunk off their tits and fuck 3 beautiful women for 16 hours straight WITHOUT FUCKING VIAGRA OK. you know, something like what he did in the hercules movies.
damn, one month to go 'til christmas! i wonder what santa claus is going to put in my stocking? ;D
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Are we talking during his competitive years or after?
I think he had good genetics, which would help anyone gain faster. Add a good structure, and he looks that much more impressive. In one pic there are spots on his stomach, like many other pro BBers from any era. Whether they were from an injection is what we're debating here. Either way, he looked great and it was his choice to use it.
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Intelligently put, Beast, but I have a few differences.
First, I seriously doubt that Steve ever drank alcohol of any kind - beer, wine, or booz. I can't base that belief on anything other than knowing for a fact that he led a very clean (estetic?) lifestyle which was even noted in an east bay newspaper article written about him in the 50's. And a good number of "us kids" back then believed that that was the only way to excell physically.
Most of that newspaper article came from an interview with his mom and she claimed that Steve never had a cold nor a cavity and never ate or drank anything that was harmful to his body. I assume that would include coke and alcohol.
From my very limited association with Steve back then, I can only recall with certainty that he was a very quiet individual who was somewhat of a loner. I can only recall meeting one of his real friends who appeared to be a bulked up powerlifter (Odd lifts back then.) That was the nite in Rio Nido (a kid's summer resort area) when Steve got in a fight and left soon after. I was in the vicinity and heard the scuffle but only got to the scene of the incident after it was all over, but all of us who knew Steve and looked up to him talked about it for the next couple of weeks.
One thing we are all kind of overlooking here is "the time periods involved". Back in the 50's the world was slowly coming out of a victorian age where "gentlemen" wore hats and the ladies never showed their "clevage". The only folks into drugs back then were musicians and hose occupations that required long periods of travel on the road. (At least that is how I recall it.) Bodybuilding was not acceptable by most people and others were ignorant of what it even was.
Those individuals who joined the Y "to get bigger" would end up in or on one of those mechanical things that would "shake your fat off", or play around with "bowling pins" and expect results. Every Y had some kind of cotton mat offering some comfort while doing situps and wooden racks against the wall to climb on or do leg raises.
Dumbells were solid metal objects and the barbells had to be reajusted everytime you wanted to increase or decrease the weight.
I don't recall ever seeing a mirror until later in the 50's when American Health Studios came in (and shortly went out of) business.
I was seriously involved in the "sport" and cannot recall any mention of the roids until the very late or very early 60's when they were initially mentioned in the Weider publication or by Mabel and Perry in IronMan. If they did exist among the bodybuilding community back then, believe me!, I would have gone a-looken!
Back when we/I started using them, they were legal and easily obtainable. No black market then, but every doctor I knew back then claimed that "steroids do not work" and the AMA was making similar statements.
No one hid the fact that he was on the juice because it was somewhat acceptable by one and all until the IOC and the politicians got involved. Once that happened the demand skyrocketed and the black market was born. And you probably know the rest.
One thing I'll never forget ....... I walked into Golds on 2nd in Santa Monica and there was a girl training right along side of the guys. I think Bill Grant was one of the guys, but the girl was definitely Lisa Lyon (spelling?). That was a major shock as up until then as every gym I ever worked out in was exclusively for the guys.
Sorry for rambling on here but times were so much different then and that must be taken into consideration when arguing who did what and when back then.
I seriously doubt that Reeves ever took roids of any type, nor Coca-Cola, nor alcohol. And I do know for a fact that he chewed his food a minimum of 20 times before swallowing anything as a way of helping his digestive functions. (Where the hell did I ever read that one?!)
If you are interested in seeing how this "sport" was way back then, go to Youtube.com and search "Steve Reeves". Someone posted a French movie there in two parts called "The Most Beautiful Man in the World" (reads better in French). Second part shows some good shots of Steve in that bodybuilding contest and will give you some idea of how this stuff actually started.
OK, thanks for reading ....
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'OK, thanks for reading ....'
man, thanks for typing. i love this stuff. i hang on every single sentence. ramble on all you want and then some as far as i'm concerned.
i am a bit of a cynic. not in a negative way, i just don't believe in humans being inhuman. i've heard too many people convincingly attest to doing one thing and then it turns out they did quite the opposite.
a friend of mine is deeply religious, often quoting the bible, been on missions, yeah really full on. anyway, he comes around my house to train one day and he's having a go at me for drinking coffee (ritual before training) and says he NEVER drinks coffee because it's a drug and it's stated in verse 9 chapter blah blah. anyway, after he'd finished his sermon i took the opportunity to point out that he was drinking a red bull (his own pre workout ritual). well, he had every excuse in the book and i just lmao since the active drug in both beverages is caffeine. he didn't/wouldn't hear of it.
what was deemed healthy back in the late 40s and 50s was somewhat different to now, but hey, maybe i just never met anyone like steve reeves.
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"And I do know for a fact that he chewed his food a minimum of 20 times before swallowing anything as a way of helping his digestive functions."
up until this sentence,,,your story was beautiful,,,
and beast,,you "met" many like reeves,,larry scott,,frank zane,,gaspari,,you met them all.
last week i was training in some gym and i saw there this 185lb lifter,,,he came in the lockers and talked to me asked questions,,it started with him tellin me he was doing nationals 3 years ago and doesnt/didnt use hormones at all,,,i was like...ok... since i know exactly what each and every person use almost to the t.
it ended after an hour or so at the middle of the gym,,while other guys were taking about gear use,,,he suddenly remembered he has done gh prescribed by a doc,,,and done testosterone/dianabol/halo and some coke and meth when he was training with marcus back in florida,,,and that he ordered igf and the source only sent him 3 kits and forgot the extra bonus forth (for every 3 you buy you get one free)
he had the courage at the end to ask me if i prefer clen tabs or liquid,,,for his girl... :D
the reason i LOVE bodybuilding is the ability to impress society with my size and muscle mass
the reason i HATE bodybuilding is the LIES
i rarely find honest bodybuilders,,i consider myself honest but! to your face among people,,i will lie like a dog
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"And I do know for a fact that he chewed his food a minimum of 20 times before swallowing anything as a way of helping his digestive functions."
up until this sentence,,,your story was beautiful,,,
and beast,,you "met" many like reeves,,larry scott,,frank zane,,gaspari,,you met them all.
last week i was training in some gym and i saw there this 185lb lifter,,,he came in the lockers and talked to me asked questions,,it started with him tellin me he was doing nationals 3 years ago and doesnt/didnt use hormones at all,,,i was like...ok... since i know exactly what each and every person use almost to the t.
it ended after an hour or so at the middle of the gym,,while other guys were taking about gear use,,,he suddenly remembered he has done gh prescribed by a doc,,,and done testosterone/dianabol/halo and some coke and meth when he was training with marcus back in florida,,,and that he ordered igf and the source only sent him 3 kits and forgot the extra bonus forth (for every 3 you buy you get one free)
he had the courage at the end to ask me if i prefer clen tabs or liquid,,,for his girl... :D
the reason i LOVE bodybuilding is the ability to impress society with my size and muscle mass
the reason i HATE bodybuilding is the LIES
i rarely find honest bodybuilders,,i consider myself honest but! to your face among people,,i will lie like a dog
Honesty is not a great virtue amongst the bbing crowd, and I'm referring to integrity in general, not just lies about usage.
A lot of 2 faced, unreliable, dishonest individuals.
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you're in a better position than most to make a judgement call, but it appears the jury's still out on this one.
in any case, one can certainly see why steve was becoming somewhat distressed at what he was seeing.
he was alive to see bodybuilding become an industry more obsessed with drugs and size for size's sake than physical culture. something that he was passionate about it became a freakshow before his very eyes and that's gotta hurt.
the cold hard reality is that every athletic endeavour has to progress. it's the nature of the beast. jumpers MUST jump higher, sprinters MUST sprint faster, throwers MUST throw further...you get the point.
if he did use testosterone or anything else, there IS one thing we can all be certain of, that it wasn't in the same stratosphere as what was to become.
is that a defence to his (possible) use of testosterone? no, but imo he doesn't need one. he probably drank alcohol and coke (which contained cocaine back then) 2 FAR more harmful drugs than testosterone and no one would have thought anything of it.
face it, this is about cheating. people want to believe that their heroes never did ANYTHING so human as using an aid to make things EASIER. heroes don't do that, they do things HARD man. fight wars, famine, move mountains and shit,then they get drunk off their tits and f**k 3 beautiful women for 16 hours straight WITHOUT FUCKING VIAGRA OK. you know, something like what he did in the hercules movies.
damn, one month to go 'til christmas! i wonder what santa claus is going to put in my stocking? ;D
I think "Beast" should start with a Steve Reeves blow-up doll. Frightening but very predictable homosexual reverence.
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"And I do know for a fact that he chewed his food a minimum of 20 times before swallowing anything as a way of helping his digestive functions."
up until this sentence,,,your story was beautiful,,,
and beast,,you "met" many like reeves,,larry scott,,frank zane,,gaspari,,you met them all.
last week i was training in some gym and i saw there this 185lb lifter,,,he came in the lockers and talked to me asked questions,,it started with him tellin me he was doing nationals 3 years ago and doesnt/didnt use hormones at all,,,i was like...ok... since i know exactly what each and every person use almost to the t.
it ended after an hour or so at the middle of the gym,,while other guys were taking about gear use,,,he suddenly remembered he has done gh prescribed by a doc,,,and done testosterone/dianabol/halo and some coke and meth when he was training with marcus back in florida,,,and that he ordered igf and the source only sent him 3 kits and forgot the extra bonus forth (for every 3 you buy you get one free)
he had the courage at the end to ask me if i prefer clen tabs or liquid,,,for his girl... :D
the reason i LOVE bodybuilding is the ability to impress society with my size and muscle mass
the reason i HATE bodybuilding is the LIES
i rarely find honest bodybuilders,,i consider myself honest but! to your face among people,,i will lie like a dog
very true.
i think most male bodybuilders hold on tightly on to the notion that the only reason they aren't built like the pros is because they haven't crossed the steroid frontier. it provides an excuse for their failure and i guess it satisfys their fragile ego.
when said bodybuilder finally crosses that final frontier and realize they still aren't built anything like the pros they simply deny they have used at all.
steroids also have that stigma of cheating and to admit taking them undermines all the hard work they have put into their physiques, taking into account the very reason most bodybuild in the first place is to impress, not to be called a drug cheat.
even when steroids were legal and relatively tame practically NONE of the successful athletes (or those wishing to remain so) admitted to using steroids.
guys like scott would expound on the virtues of blairs milk and cream product proclaiming 'milk' the missing ingredient that enabled him to finally turn those 13" pipe cleaners into the 20" guns that catapulted him to fame.
no doubt larry chewed his food at least 30 times. i mean, he wasn't just a health freak he was also a devout mormon who wouldn't dream of telling a lie.
anyway, when he finally did admit the truth he would only admit to about 10mg of dball a day (or something). ok larry, all your competitors were popping them like candy but you only took about a third of a tablet a day ::)
this was a long time after he retired btw so, imo, he has about as much credibility as this 'pump' moron that trolls the boards.
if steve reeves was alive today would he have finally admitted to using testosterone? this guy was 220lb apparently. i'm thinking he would have been pretty self obsessed to get that big. i assume he was using extra vitamins and supplements. is it really beyond the imagination to conceive that he MAY have used some 'harmless' (back then) testosterone?
i guess we'll never know for sure, but nothing alters the fact that reeves was a great champion.
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On the subject of Reeves, someone on another post mentioned that he had done some nude posing for photographs but he could not find them on the net.
Steve did some nude shots back in his day when he was near his peak but they were artistic enough to hang on gym walls without offending anyone. They were "side nudity" shots = twisted lat shot and a seated tri/bi shot if I recall correctly.
They were certainly not pornographic shots by today's standards.
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That's an eyeopener for sure.
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I thought I'd add some personalized information on Reeves from whom, I
consider, a pretty reliable source; certainly an iron icon in his own right,
Dan Lurie. If you don't know, Dan is attempting to re-enter the bodybuilding scene because of his own disappointment on how the iron game and bodybuilding stage has "progressed," into more emphasis on drugs than genetics; (monster) size over shape & symmetry, etc. He's entering on the published word level as well as the competitive dias level (no, not him!). The emphasis on both of these major fronts is drug-free; returning the sport to its once golden, former glory, or at least as close as possible.
I recently asked Dan about Steve and DRUGS. Here's his direct response, given
within the past several weeks.
Dan: "...We were very close and good friends...sharing broadway shows (with
the wives)...and snowball fights in Times Square (Dan's home turf in New York)."
More: "...Steve and I discussed steroids many times...Steve Reeves never took
steroids in his life...".
He went on to remember visiting the Reeves ranch in San Diego and observing
how he (Reeves) grew all his own vegetables, etc. A health "nut" for sure.
I just thought I'd add this testimony from the whatever-it-is-worth department,
perhaps adding some (personal) credibility to this debate. Although legally this
is considered hearsay, since Steve and Dan enjoyed a close friendship, regular
buds of sorts, Reeves was generally thought of by everyone who knew him to
be a straight shooter; one who didn't lie and fabricate things and stories for
the pure sake of it. His word was pretty much his bond (influenzed no doubt
by his Montana ranch upbringing and strong uncle role model). And Dan Lurie
certainly has no axe to grind at his age (83) by saying something that weren't true. But, in his own way, he would like to advance some truths concerning
Reeves as HE KNOWS THEM.
As would I...
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I thought I'd add some personalized information on Reeves from whom, I
consider, a pretty reliable source; certainly an iron icon in his own right,
Dan Lurie. If you don't know, Dan is attempting to re-enter the bodybuilding scene because of his own disappointment on how the iron game and bodybuilding stage has "progressed," into more emphasis on drugs than genetics; (monster) size over shape & symmetry, etc. He's entering on the published word level as well as the competitive dias level (no, not him!). The emphasis on both of these major fronts is drug-free; returning the sport to its once golden, former glory, or at least as close as possible.
I recently asked Dan about Steve and DRUGS. Here's his direct response, given
within the past several weeks.
Dan: "...We were very close and good friends...sharing broadway shows (with
the wives)...and snowball fights in Times Square (Dan's home turf in New York)."
More: "...Steve and I discussed steroids many times...Steve Reeves never took
steroids in his life...".
He went on to remember visiting the Reeves ranch in San Diego and observing
how he (Reeves) grew all his own vegetables, etc. A health "nut" for sure.
I just thought I'd add this testimony from the whatever-it-is-worth department,
perhaps adding some (personal) credibility to this debate. Although legally this
is considered hearsay, since Steve and Dan enjoyed a close friendship, regular
buds of sorts, Reeves was generally thought of by everyone who knew him to
be a straight shooter; one who didn't lie and fabricate things and stories for
the pure sake of it. His word was pretty much his bond (influenzed no doubt
by his Montana ranch upbringing and strong uncle role model). And Dan Lurie
certainly has no axe to grind at his age (83) by saying something that weren't true. But, in his own way, he would like to advance some truths concerning
Reeves as HE KNOWS THEM.
As would I...
nice article but, coming from lurie, i'll take it with a grain of salt.
lurie used to say EVERYONE was natural. especially if they were with him.
it is certainly in lurie's interest to say that reeves was completely natural because he is trying to present a 'golden age' of when bbing was wonderful and healthy.
all the old competitors will do their best to maintain that image. most have convinced themselves to such an extent that they actually sincerely believe it.
for example. i was talking with an old ex powerlifter a while back that claimed to know reg park and swore black and blue that reg was completely clean, would never dream of 'cheating' or 'puting that shit into his body', etc (the usual retorts). well, i almost believed this guy until i found out years later that reg took his fair share of dianabol.
think about it. why wouldn't these guys take 'supplements' that they actually knew worked and were prescribed to them by doctors (ziegler et all) who presented them as being relatively harmless. the negative stigma about steroids didn't really hit until the 1980's and boy did it hit hard (all the 'commy' countries creating monsters and all that western media hyped propaganda). so hard that everyone wanted to disassociate themselves from it.
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youre a smart man beast,,
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nice article but, coming from lurie, i'll take it with a grain of salt.
lurie used to say EVERYONE was natural. especially if they were with him.
it is certainly in lurie's interest to say that reeves was completely natural because he is trying to present a 'golden age' of when bbing was wonderful and healthy.
all the old competitors will do their best to maintain that image. most have convinced themselves to such an extent that they actually sincerely believe it.
for example. i was talking with an old ex powerlifter a while back that claimed to know reg park and swore black and blue that reg was completely clean, would never dream of 'cheating' or 'puting that shit into his body', etc (the usual retorts). well, i almost believed this guy until i found out years later that reg took his fair share of dianabol.
think about it. why wouldn't these guys take 'supplements' that they actually knew worked and were prescribed to them by doctors (ziegler et all) who presented them as being relatively harmless. the negative stigma about steroids didn't really hit until the 1980's and boy did it hit hard (all the 'commy' countries creating monsters and all that western media hyped propaganda). so hard that everyone wanted to disassociate themselves from it.
How did you find out that Park took the drug? And by 'found out' do you mean it was proven, or that someone told you and you accepted it as proven? Thanks.
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How did you find out that Park took the drug? And by 'found out' do you mean it was proven, or that someone told you and you accepted it as proven? Thanks.
sorry, no conclusive proof, only hearsay. Put it this way, i personally believe the source 100% and it's not like it's a great secret amongst those that knew him. i didn't know him and have never met him. reg park has never publically admitted to taking steroids (as far as i know) which would probably be the ONLY way that it COULD be concusively PROVEN at this point in time. i doubt reg will ever do this either because he is another that wants to preserve both his own legacy and that of the 'golden age'. if anyone is naive enough to believe this bull shit then good for them. i mean steve reeves, possibly, but reg park? seriously, that's a stretch.
Joe, do you honestly believe that reg was completely natural? competitors of the time that were a lot less massive/strong than reg have admitted to using steroids but we are going to say that reg didn't?
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sorry, no conclusive proof, only hearsay. Put it this way, i personally believe the source 100% and it's not like it's a great secret amongst those that knew him. i didn't know him and have never met him. reg park has never publically admitted to taking steroids (as far as i know) which would probably be the ONLY way that it COULD be concusively PROVEN at this point in time. i doubt reg will ever do this either because he is another that wants to preserve both his own legacy and that of the 'golden age'. if anyone is naive enough to believe this bull shit then good for them. i mean steve reeves, possibly, but reg park? seriously, that's a stretch.
Joe, do you honestly believe that reg was completely natural? competitors of the time that were a lot less massive/strong than reg have admitted to using steroids but we are going to say that reg didn't?
What I believe and what I can prove are two different matters. I would tend to believe that both Reeves and Park were clean- I have a letter Reg wrote to me in which he denies having taken drugs, and by all accounts Steve had an uncanny and unusual ability to get into shape very quickly in an era long before the British magazines began talking about 'tissue drugs' or Hoffman revealed the magic behind the curtain as isometrics.
My position is that I will not paint with a broad brush whether positively or negatively (although currently this is much easier to do). The affirmative (that Steve & Reg used) has the burden of proof, and although I also have contacts I trust (as you mentioned you have) none has so informed me. Grimek did not use during his competitive days and he and Reeves overlapped in the late 1940s- I know that proves nothing, but it hints at perspective.
The obvious period in which drug use became evident in the magazines is approximately 1960-1965; that is, grab the magazines from that era, spread them out and study the photos- amazing, quick development.
I have no problem pointing out the negative of the sport, if it can be proved (such as some of Anderson's attributed unofficial lifts), but to offer as proof jibes or sarcastic comments falls short of what I consider proof.
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Well stated, Joe. Thanks.
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What I believe and what I can prove are two different matters. I would tend to believe that both Reeves and Park were clean- I have a letter Reg wrote to me in which he denies having taken drugs, and by all accounts Steve had an uncanny and unusual ability to get into shape very quickly in an era long before the British magazines began talking about 'tissue drugs' or Hoffman revealed the magic behind the curtain as isometrics.
My position is that I will not paint with a broad brush whether positively or negatively (although currently this is much easier to do). The affirmative (that Steve & Reg used) has the burden of proof, and although I also have contacts I trust (as you mentioned you have) none has so informed me. Grimek did not use during his competitive days and he and Reeves overlapped in the late 1940s- I know that proves nothing, but it hints at perspective.
The obvious period in which drug use became evident in the magazines is approximately 1960-1965; that is, grab the magazines from that era, spread them out and study the photos- amazing, quick development.
I have no problem pointing out the negative of the sport, if it can be proved (such as some of Anderson's attributed unofficial lifts), but to offer as proof jibes or sarcastic comments falls short of what I consider proof.
'what i believe and what i can prove' is very true in the real world of course and from that position i can not debate the point. bearing in mind, of course, that if a user does not admit his use then there is not going to be proof eg. if ronnie coleman or jay cutler refused to ever admit to any anabolic drugs then how could we refute that? failure of a drug test perhaps but even that's not always conclusive.
one of the things that i respect about contemporary bodybuilders is that they are some of the only athletes in the world who are willing to talk publically about their use of these drugs. of course they often get unceremoniously flamed because of it, but it gives the arm chair athletes another reason why they couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't suceed at sports.
champion athletes have far too much to lose by disclosure ie multi million dollar contracts, livelihood, status (personal, law and athletic), legacy, etc.
Joe, for these reasons and others aforementioned i will have to agree to disagree on the issue of reg park. imo, there is enough circumstantial evidence to go with the hearsay to sustain my belief.
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Some well taken points, Beast, but your hearsay is even weaker than mine.
At least mine came from the horses mouth. And given your points, geez it
pretty much suggests that everyone was a liar and (nearly) everyone took
drugs. And you know, just by common sense, that neither of those points
could possible be true. Mankind never goes with the flow 100%. Personally,
I first learned about steroids, D-bol & Anavar (that's was it!) in 1964-5. One
of my best gym buddies got on it when I was in Marine boot camp (back in
Minnesota). In just six months the guy transformed his body, literally. Did I
want to get out of the Corps and rush to the nearest druggest? Afterall, I had
been a regular weighthead and now my buddy was a muscle monster! No, it
actually had the opposite effect on me. Hey, that's just cheating, I thought.
To take something so artifical and foreign into one's body to grow couldn't be
right...and healthy. And I knew it was synthetic. And that's ALL anyone knew
back then on those limited substances--which were not illegal!
To take this broad sweeping brush and swipe it across humanity and suggest
all or most or even a majority took steroids is simply not intelligent. It gives
practically no credit to trainees and competitors regarding choice and personal
integrity. And, in a way, those which did TRY steroids, especially at those
small dosages, should be understood and excused somewhat because the
times were so radically different. They knew so little. They knew virtually
nothing of possible side effects or negative ramifications. And that included
most doctors and medical practitioners. And this of course also includes
competitive bodybuilders, on all levels. Some of these guys also took or tried
them classifying their use in the nutritional vein. They just saw "muscle" and
forged ahead. Some of course back then didn't care about any possible side
effects or anything else. They just wanted more muscle or more strength,
at any price. But that basically went against the times as physical culture was
still a fairly big part of the iron game. In otherwords, that was a minority. In a
way, those that did take advantage (for lack of a better term) of steroids, did
so in a manner similair to a trainee/competitor nowadays looking for the next
great nutritional muscle enhancer, whether it be creatine or an NO-protein
product. At the most, they viewed steroids as "extra" test; certainly that
couldn't hurt...a little additional body boost, could it! In virtually no way, can
you compare present day steroid use and abuse (& knowledge) with the "old"
days. It's like comparing apples to...raisens.
Personally, I think it to be unfortunate for anyone, Reg Park included, to "lie"
about past steroid use (or experimentation), but that's a personal choice and
one that a person has to internalize his own way. But to use speculation and
(negative) hearsay against his goodwill and personal integrity is plain ass
wrong. This would apply to Steve Reeves, John Grimek or John Doe down at
24-hour fitness. If someone insists they didn't use, and lifestyle, friends and
associates support their contentions, then certainly their integrity should be
given the benefit of the doubt and their word honored.
Again, A, B, & C doesn't necessarily equal D. Basic philosophy will prove most
allegations wrong, or at least, inaccurate all day long, from Plato to Pitt. It is
also what modern day law is based upon; the reasonable man theory. For the
overwhelming most part, it is effective.
And to me, and many, many others (practically all who know...), nothing has
ever been proven that Steve Reeves ever took--or even tried--steroids or
drugs. To the contrary. The facts overwhelmingly point to innocence. And even if some past (oldtimer) bodybuilding icon/star did try or use some steroids, whatever, it probably wouldn't have been enough to make a horse snoot twice. It would have been like a knat on an elephant's behind. Or,
trying to look up and find a bird on top of the Empire State Building.
And just out of curiosity, what in the WORLD does trying to prove that Reeves
or anyone else from the bygone eras took drugs have to do with present day steroid/drug abuse?? What??
It seems it's like an excuse to use, abuse or otherwise cop-out to the fact
that certain people can't get 18-inch arms or bench 400-pounds without their
own outside assistance, so they must say--to excuse themselves--that
everybody must have this or that to succeed. Gee, I busted my hump as hard as Donald Trump and I ain't got a pot to piss in. Therefore, Trump must be a crook, dishonest and a liar cause he's got it...and I ain't.
Again, back to basic philosophy.
Throw that Trump card out of your deck, cause it don't work in this blame game.
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1. nothing that was said on here is against reeves as a bodybuilder. he was a phenominal bodybuilder.
2. no one is trying to prove reeves experiemnted with hormones,,it's a known fact to any serious bodybuilder.
3. there is no connection to todays drug abuse. no connection what so ever beside the fact that reeves was the begining of what he came to hate.
4. you better have 18 inch arms before you reach 315lb incline bench press,,because if not you got zero chance in competetive bodybuilding as of 2006. yes hormones will help you get to 18 inch but when you bench press 400+ poundage you better have 20 inch arms,,,otherwize bodybuiding is not your cup of tea.
5. donald is a theif,,crook,, and rich why??because he knows how to manipulate people and get away with it like any good ceo
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1. nothing that was said on here is against reeves as a bodybuilder. he was a phenominal bodybuilder.
2. no one is trying to prove reeves experiemnted with hormones,,it's a known fact to any serious bodybuilder.
3. there is no connection to todays drug abuse. no connection what so ever beside the fact that reeves was the begining of what he came to hate.
4. you better have 18 inch arms before you reach 315lb incline bench press,,because if not you got zero chance in competetive bodybuilding as of 2006. yes hormones will help you get to 18 inch but when you bench press 400+ poundage you better have 20 inch arms,,,otherwize bodybuiding is not your cup of tea.
5. donald is a theif,,crook,, and rich why??because he knows how to manipulate people and get away with it like any good ceo
Regarding point 2: his use is a known fact to any serious bodybuilder?
There are many serious bodybuilders who are unsure of much about Steve Reeves because they are young and unstudied in ironhistory. I assume you mean serious student of bodybuilding history? If so, I take exception to the statement, because I fancy myself to be in that category, and rather than see the claim as known fact I see it as known rumor.
I could just as easily, and just as weakly, say that it is a known fact among serious students of bodybuilding history that Reeves never used. My statement would be an inert as yours, except you have the burden of proof, which is not met with simple assertions.
At any rate, we disagree, and unless you can supply something beyond what has been offered so far as 'proof', then I will drop out of this pointless discussion.
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'what i believe and what i can prove' is very true in the real world of course and from that position i can not debate the point. bearing in mind, of course, that if a user does not admit his use then there is not going to be proof eg. if ronnie coleman or jay cutler refused to ever admit to any anabolic drugs then how could we refute that? failure of a drug test perhaps but even that's not always conclusive.
one of the things that i respect about contemporary bodybuilders is that they are some of the only athletes in the world who are willing to talk publically about their use of these drugs. of course they often get unceremoniously flamed because of it, but it gives the arm chair athletes another reason why they couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't suceed at sports.
champion athletes have far too much to lose by disclosure ie multi million dollar contracts, livelihood, status (personal, law and athletic), legacy, etc.
Joe, for these reasons and others aforementioned i will have to agree to disagree on the issue of reg park. imo, there is enough circumstantial evidence to go with the hearsay to sustain my belief.
;D
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who's that opening the fridge? cutler?
you can't tell by the chin?
Yes...of course it is.....MR OLYMPIA himself!
;)
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I don't see any reason to conclude that Reeves used test or its derivatives. For one, test itself wasn't approved by the FDA for perscription until 1950. If bodybuilders were using it before that then they were experimenting with a "drug" that wasn't widely available or that the FDA itself was confident in.
Reeves weighed between 210 and 215 at 6'1" in lean, but not "ripped" condition. Steroid use was not necessary to develop his level of muscle, so why suspect that he experimented with an unpractical, unavailable and unapproved "drug"? If he did, he certainly didn't achieve anything that couldn't be achieved without it.
Same with Park. He won the 1951 Universe weighing 214 pounds at 6'1". He appeared to be leaner than Reeves but he also had a heavier bone structure. In '58, when he won the professional Mr. Universe, he weighed 213. Obviously, he had a phenomenal physique, but the bodyweight just doesn't necessitate steroid use. If he eventually did use steroids, it would have to have been later.
Both of these men carried about 25 pounds more muscle than the average male U.S. Army recruit of the same height. It isn't at all unrealistic to think that 25 pounds of muscle could be gained by these men without steroid use.
Also, several statistical analyses of weightlifting performances seem to indicate that the Soviet team began experimenting with steroids in 1952. It's not practical to conclude that a few bodybuilders were ahead of them in regards to this. And if they were, why did they respond so poorly to it?
So, I see no reason to believe that Reeves, Park, Grimek, etc were using steroids in the early 1950s and before.
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Reeves was natural. End of story.
ahahaha poop poop is pounting... he was not...
did I just heard your dream shatter?
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Reeves was just not built like he took anything. And as Jayem said, he was really into health and eating clean. I just don't see it. If he did I would bet it was a very short time cause he either didn't see results or he didn't like the results he saw. He was great looking (in face and body), had a successful career in Hollywood and did very well for himself and ate clean as heck. I just don't see why he would take a chance with roids. Reg was thick and denser and he looks more like he took stuf than Steve. Did Steve have any outrageous lifts that possibly could result from usage. And no matter what, if he used it is miniscule to what they do nowadays.
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'Both of these men carried about 25 pounds more muscle than the average male U.S. Army recruit of the same height. It isn't at all unrealistic to think that 25 pounds of muscle could be gained by these men without steroid use.'
this is my only issue with your post Casey. The average u.s. army 'recruit' of 190lbs (apparently) physical status, i can guarantee, was far from reg park contest condition.
knny, i thought that was roger ramjet ;D. is that cutler's fridge? does he actually use those vials? are they his? is he diabetic?, etc, etc, etc. i'd get him off, verdict: not enough evidence.
Jay Em, by 'horses mouth' i assume you're talking about reeves? i'm not arguing the point on reeves (i have absolutely zero on him).
I don't know about the 'broad brush' bit. i am only pointing the finger at reg here, as unfair as that is i can guarantee i won't be taking him to task on it.
as onlyme said, reg has that 'look' and he trained with some phenomenal poundages (caveat: i know onlyme was not directly accusing reg in any way).
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why is it so heaRTBREAKING TO FIND OUT THAT your heros were built with the help of drugs....drugs built bodyes and worldwars were fought on drugs...accept the truth...and get on with your life....jesus , Weider was THE master advertiser...gay , drugs, egocentrism, have been around sports since the beginnings.
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Master Advertiser, very good. ;D
Abuser of Champions since 1936.
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well to realize just how shrewd of a bussiness man he was/is....just look at all the people in denial who grew up with flex, m&f, etc....now they grow up and all ofasudden...bam!...their idols are all juiced which is ok...cause it's been part of the game for more then 60 years...but they can't believe that reality is different then what the powers to be present it to be.
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I cried myself to sleep for a while, but the therapy got me through the tough times.
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I agree, Park did have "that look" (specifically, a large amount of muscle on the delts, traps and upper back, which have the highest density of androgen receptors and, therefore, typically grow the most in response to steroid use) and he was ridiculously strong. It makes me suspicious of him also. But his lean body mass was only about 195 (on a fairly large structure - 8" wrist and 9.5" ankle), and the impracticality of obtaining test at that time makes me doubt that he was using it. So, historically, and based on his lean body mass, I'd have to say "No, he was not using." But, visually, based on his appearance, I have my doubts. On the other hand, many drug-tested bodybuilders today equal his level of development and conditioning (albeit, none that I know of have as impressive a physical build due to height and bone structure).
Reeves, I'd have to say undoubtably "no" -- the timing was wrong and his development and strength doesn't indicate it in any way.
After about 1960, practically all high-level bodybuilders had been "exposed" to steroids -- either by using them themselves or knew bodybuilders who were. After 1958 I would suspect any bodybuilder of steroid use, because it was a possibility. From 1952 to '58 I would say that steroid use was possible, but somewhat unlikely. Before 1952, I would seriously doubt that they were using anything. And before 1950 I'd say it was practically impossible that bodybuilders had access to any extraneous hormones.
Some years ago, I did some rather in-depth research into this (actually, it was in tandem with a series of articles I was writing for the now-defunct "Hardgainer" magazine). I've personally corresponded with some "big names" from the iron game (including from that era), as well as some prominent modern researchers at the University level (and above actually). From that, there appears to be a somewhat clear limit as to how much muscle mass a person can develop without the use of exogeneous "drugs". That would appear to be about 25% of untrained, but healthy, lean body mass. Reeves was within that region and Park appears to have been pushing it a little ...but still within the realm of possibility. Jack Delinger, in proportion, was also at about the same developmental level as Park, but he achieved that in 1947 -- when test use was a practical impossibility. Actually, scaled for height, John Berry (from bodybuilding.com's "Brit Show") carries a similar level of development as Park did in 1951 (when he won the Mr. Universe) ...and Berry competes in drug-tested events (which aren't infallible).
In fact, before 1958 or so, there's no physiological reason to conclude that any of the prominent bodybuilders were using steroids. Their lean body masses were clearly attainable without drug use.
For me, this isn't at all about defending or attacking "heroes" because of some religious-like worshipping. I don't attach any moral issues to taking steroids -- other than the deception of people who are setting goals for themselves based on what they believe is attainable without drugs (and that type of deception really angers me). But there's also a tendency for drug-users and people with inferior physiques to accuse Reeves, Park, Grimek, Delinger, Eiferman, Ross, etc of using drugs simply because it provides an excuse for their own lack of development. Many people claim that the "old-timers" were using steroids because they are simply looking for a reason to "justify" their own steroid-use, to put the old-timers on the same "moral level" as current "heroes", or to provide an excuse as to why they haven't achieved the same amout of muscle (i.e. "I'd be that big too, if I was using drugs.").
What's important is that we stick to the facts and look at it unbiasedly.
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Great post, Casey!!
Based on my personal experience through the 50's and the 60's, it all rings true!
And I agree with your statement - "After about 1960, practically all high-level bodybuilders had been "exposed" to steroids -- either by using them themselves or knew bodybuilders who were" except that I would be a bit more specific and change 1960 to "1962/1963".
Casey, is your research article posted anywhere on the internet? I'd like to read it.
Can I ask you who participated in that research? If you failed to include Bill Starr, you missed one individual who has a vast amount of knowledge in the field.
In a somewhat related statement - Have any of you GetBiggers ever seen Pat Casey around the time he set the world bench press record at 600 pounds? I was present for that feat of strength back then. Or George Frenn and Bill "Peanuts" West when they were in their prime?
They were the "Pioneers" as far as I am concerned.
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why is it so heaRTBREAKING TO FIND OUT THAT your heros were built with the help of drugs....drugs built bodyes and worldwars were fought on drugs...accept the truth...and get on with your life....jesus , Weider was THE master advertiser...gay , drugs, egocentrism, have been around sports since the beginnings.
Speaking for myself, it would not be heartbreaking at all. But I tend to make such decisions based on evidence rather than innuendo.
Just so I am clear on how some of you stand on this issue: What do you consider the last champion builder or lifter to not have used drugs- how far back do you see this going?
I know I am asking for an opinion, but that should not be a problem since that's all you have offered so far.
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"What's important is that we stick to the facts and look at it unbiasedly."
the facts are very sad my friend,,
fact a: bodybuilding was never and will never be olympic sport. if steve reeves was clean which he never was during his prime,,,bodybuilding would have become AN OLYMPIC SPORT. again it didnt and NEVER will,,why? because bodybuilder need constant use of hormones in order to maintain muscle mass and improve it from year to year to an impressive enough level.
fact b: the npc/ifbb purposly keep itself seperated enough from the bodybuilders (with a joke called "drug tests" in some shows that a 10 year old can pass) inorder to simply not be shut down. the npc and ifbb dont go for any out of cult publicity,, as a sport,, world wide because it is A CULT and an industry. i consider myself athlete but society does not!
fact c: steve reeves was so consumed with himself that he couldnt bring even 1 single child into the world,,majority of people are not like that! you gotta be immature,,,busy with yourself,,,narcsistic,,,and loving yourself more than you can love others inorder to grow up old and lonely with out off sprinngs. with that good of genetics dont you think any one would try to contiue his family tree? ill let you think about it ;)
dont believe crap that is sold to you by money hungry publishers,,,there is no reason that a 6'1 beast from russia be 6'1 220 12% as of 2006,, and reeves be 6'1 220 6% in 1946,,,no reason but the use of sport drugs.
you dont lose 6% bf by only shedding 5lb and doing it naturally..,,,try 30lb. some people as i said in many of my posts on getbig,,need a simple taste of m1t,,dianabol,,rough test versions suspended in oil,,or other rough compounds to get full benefits,,,you dont need to be on aas for long time inorder to explode.
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Reeves was just not built like he took anything. And as Jayem said, he was really into health and eating clean. I just don't see it. If he did I would bet it was a very short time cause he either didn't see results or he didn't like the results he saw. He was great looking (in face and body), had a successful career in Hollywood and did very well for himself and ate clean as heck. I just don't see why he would take a chance with roids. Reg was thick and denser and he looks more like he took stuf than Steve. Did Steve have any outrageous lifts that possibly could result from usage. And no matter what, if he used it is miniscule to what they do nowadays.
Theymay have weighed more than the average guy cause they lifted weights. ANd 25 or even 30pounds of muscle is not that much considering the people back then didn't lift like today and if you lifted regualry you cuold easily get that kind of muscle.
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Joe asked .... "" do you consider the last champion builder or lifter to not have used drugs- how far back do you see this going?
My attempt at an answer ..... Joe, I would hesitate to answer "who", but I'll make a good attempt at answering "when".
Based on my experience in those days, I would say that the "last" was in the very late 1950's or very early 1960's.
And to continue a bit ...... Back in them old days, most of the population never heard of "bodybuilding" and even more never had any idea about "Bodybuilding competitions", and fewer still (and even those involved) considered it to be a sport of any type.
I could be wrong here but the "sport" concept did not even arise until someone (possibly the Weiders) gave any thought to Bodybuilding in the Olympics.
And I can recall heated discussions of the IOC's admission of other and various governing bodies whose "sporting" activities were somewhat questionable.
Someone even stated that a trained dog show would be given IOC priority over bodybuilding.
And this was all long before drug usage was common knowledge.
The question of the IOC's acceptance of bodybuilding as a "Sport" was the original and prime factor of the IOC's approval consideration and not the question of drug usage. (At least initially.)
That drug usage question did not arise until a few years later and was probably the major (but not initial) reason it never became an official part of the Olympics.
Has anyone ever read the official IOC documentation that fully describes Weiders' attempt to get bodybuilding into the Olympics? I am sure theat the IOC keeps those records.
At one time the Weiders were successful enough to get IOC approval for bodybuilding as an "invited sport" (wrong terminology) but not as an official sport within the Olympic venue.
Anyone able to offer the facts on that subject?
And - if I recall correctly, many years back there was an organization that promoted something similar to the Olympics but on a much smaller scale that invited sporting organizations that were not recognized by the IOC. Bodybuilding was a part of that event, but I forget those details and who won it, etc. (I think it was held in San Jose, California.)
Any help???
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Stuntmovie, I've never corresponded personally with Bill Starr, but I certainly would like to. On several occasions I was tempted to contact him (I was given his home address) but, for some reason, I never did it. I figure this stuff must be "old hat" to him and not that interesting.
Several years ago I drafted up a set of equations based loosely on Dr. Harrison Pope's research with the fat-free mass index as well as a regression of drug-tested and 1950's era (and before) bodybuilders. The result was a somewhat clear limit as to the maximum amount of lean body mass that could be developed be a drug-free athlete of a certain height and bone structure. Park, Delinger and Grimek, as well as several modern drug-tested bodybuilders are on that limit ...but none have managed to surpass it. I've never published that in any one source, but there are several websites with articles I wrote. Perhaps the info was referenced in some of those. As for the "Hardgainer" and "Milo" articles, they're the legal property of Stuart McRobert and Randall Strossen. ;)
I corresponded with Tommy Kono for awhile (who's a real class act, by the way) and I asked him about the issue of steroid use in the 1950s (who better to know!) ...he said he wasn't even aware of such things until the late '50's and never took them personally. Also, I once asked Ray Beck about Reg Park (Mr. Beck owned a gym in Vancouver in the 1950s and hosted Reg Park's trip to Vancouver in 1956. He also wrote an article for a 1956 Iron Man about Reg). Mr. Beck said that Park had no knowledge of steroids at that time. I can't remember exactly who told me this, but I think it was Tommy Kono who said that Zeigler wouldn't test anabolics on the top lifters, such as himself, because he was unsure of the side-effects and Hoffman didn't want to risk the top athletes. That's why March was one of the early guinea pigs (in 1959) - he wasn't an Olympic threat at that time. Kono was already a gold medalist and didn't need to take such a risk.
Over the years I've spoken to quite a few notable people about this. I'd take what Joe Roark has to say very seriously. I don't think these questions will ever be answered definitively. But it is definitive that steroid-use in bodybuilding was very unlikely before the late 1950s ...and the level of muscle mass on someone like Steve Reeves (again, who had a lean body mass of about 190-195 at 6'1") is clearly attainable without the use of drugs.
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Joe, I would say that your hypothetical question of when the last builder or
lifter not used drugs would be...impossible to intelligently answer.
And again, using that sweeping brush theory, it's not fair to anyone, in any way, to even suggest everyone did this; everyone did that; they were X-amount more strong and built than a normally athletic guy, so therefore that person had to have taken drugs. And they took this amount. They just had to have.
I realize some of these comments come from younger, inexperienced minds--tho intelligent--but for pete's sake, let's try and keep it a little more OBJECTIVE. And keep arguments and points in proper context.
Some example. In 1980 when editor of Muscle Digest, I interviewed one of THE
most intelligent, accomplished Medical Doctor's I had ever met. He was
a highly respected man in his field of specialized medicine and internal organ
research; having won grants from private enterprise and the government. He
was also a firm believer in basic nutrition, unlike many of his counterparts of
the day.
He was also a champion bodybuilder named Don Peterson.
We discussed the drug scene and steroids in particular at length, especially as
it related to bodybuilding as competitive sport (I used to call it an arty-sport
or sporty-art). He laughed at the way most bodybuilders thought of and used
drugs for personal enhancement. He also said everyone is so different in their
genetics and application of diet and training--and their inter-relationship--that
no two bodybuilders could ever expect to respond the same; therefore, no two
could ever respond the same to steroids. Some he said simply could not respond to any appreciative degree. He said the gamet of genetics in relation
to building muscle, burning fat, training, diet, strength, drugs, ranged from
A To Z. He said we could always broadly classify particular groups but that
bodybuilding was an endeavor of centimeters more than inches. But those
centimeters could equate to vast differences as they were applied differently.
He admitted, by the way, openly with no reservation, that he took drugs,
mainly test, but also said he knew exactly what he was doing, used smaller
amounts and monitered his usage expertly. He also cycled them perfectly,
knowing exactly when to quit. Basically, he said steroids were usually more
effective after a layoff and a restart. He also said he had friends and knew
of others that were very muscular and strong and never touched a thing.
He admitted he took steroids when his genetics took him as far as they could
and it wasn't far enough to reach the goals he desired. But later, he said, when his newly enhanced body still couldn't compete with the monsters, he
saw the insanity of his actions and thinking...and quit; drugs and competitive
bodybuilding. He rationalized it this way: With drugs, once personally
committed, it's never enough. A person will always find an excuse to take
more or continue. If this did that, than this will do such and such...and on and
on.
Basic philosophy does work here if one applies it. As does objectivity. As does
common sense and life's experience. My bottom line is painting that canvas
with a broad colored brush--with all its variations--is simply not fair to most
its applied to. There's so many exceptions. And there's exceptions to the
exceptions. Speaking of which...
Sorry, GH15, but why do you continue to harp on Reeves not fathering a child?
What does that have to do with this argument or anything else? And to even
remotely suggest he is this or that because of not bringing an offspring to this
earth is kinda crazy. Geez, if we all were to judge people and one another based on this premise, or anything like it, we'd never get along...on any level.
No wonder we have wars (overstated point). Maybe Steve's wife couldn't bare? Maybe Steve had a problem. Maybe they just put it off, then it became
too late? Maybe, maybe, maybe. Is it even our business? I have four kids and
hopefully that doesn't make me less or more than anyone else here.
Besides...Maybes are for babies!!
Oh, Figo, I'm glad you...got through your therapy and those tough times...
cause your post made me laugh. It was a nice break in the action.
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i think steve reeves tried em sometime during the 50s but that he didnt use em for long
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"Maybe Steve's wife couldn't bare? Maybe Steve had a problem. Maybe they just put it off, then it became..."
adoption would cost him less than test tablets in those days ;) (yes there was such a thing,,still is)
oh mr reeves had a problem,,that problem is called shooting blanks in your american slang ;),,,then again he most likely was too selfish and into his loved self inorder to devote time to a child. waste of "genetics" huh? ;)
you dont die at 70 something and claim for healthy life style,,,stop lieing to youself my friend.
healthy people see the number 80,,,90,,,, (gerald ford,,,george bush,,,both had a lot more stress in their life than reeves yet lived to see him dead,,,why? i think you know part of the answer)
pay attention how i never say a thing about jack,,,he is old and healthy! oh,,,and NATURAL.
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"Maybe Steve's wife couldn't bare? Maybe Steve had a problem. Maybe they just put it off, then it became..."
adoption would cost him less than test tablets in those days ;) (yes there was such a thing,,still is)
oh mr reeves had a problem,,that problem is called shooting blanks in your american slang ;),,,then again he most likely was too selfish and into his loved self inorder to devote time to a child. waste of "genetics" huh? ;)
you dont die at 70 something and claim for healthy life style,,,stop lieing to youself my friend.
healthy people see the number 80,,,90,,,, (gerald ford,,,george bush,,,both had a lot more stress in their life than reeves yet lived to see him dead,,,why? i think you know part of the answer)
pay attention how i never say a thing about jack,,,he is old and healthy! oh,,,and NATURAL.
I like this post. ::) SO becasue Steve had no children he was using steroids. ::) At least that's what I got from it. Could only read it once. ???
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Casey, Your study is way over my head but I gotta back you up regarding your regards for Tommy Kono. I've known Tommy for many years and have to admit that I have never met a finer athlete and gentleman. My association with Tommy and the Olympic lifters under his coaching has been a memorial experience on my part.
While on the subject of Mr Kono, let me also mention Dr Peter George and Harold Sakada (Odd Job) who were also close friends of Tommy's and great lifters in their own rights.
But I have to admit that I never discussed drugs with any of them.
And Bill Starr! He can tell you stories that would win the Pulitzer Prize and keep you laughing along the way. A phenominal guy with unbelievable experiences in the Iron Game. I also knew Bill for a good number of years and have the honor of being mentioned in his book, "Only the Strong Shall Survive!"
I pray that he writes his story one day!
As for your studies, I would be of little help. I only lifted to see and experience the results, but never had a clue on what made it happen other than lifting heavy things.
I seldom brag but the occasion appears right here ..... I really did like lifting heavy things back when lifting heavy things was possible.
I have been told by San Francisco Firemen that something I did while I was in high school is still talked about in Basic Training (?) with new recruits in the Fire Dept.
According to my source, there has only been one fire hydrant stolden and still missing from the city of San Francisco. They are never missing because they are too damn heavy. Cept for one that's still AWOL.
That fire hydrant is still in the basement of my old house in the Sunset District. I picked it up and carried it home two miles away after a drunk hit it on Lincoln Highway ajacent to the Golden Gate Park.
I think I was the guy in the passenger seat!
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I was amazed that Tommy Kono would even take the time to correspond with me. I was just learning the Olympic Lifts at the time and his genuine interest in my progress surprised me. I slipped the steroid topic in as respectfully as possible, but he wasn't at all "touchy". Even a year or so later he would check up on my progress. That was several years ago now. He seemed modest about his accomplishments. He mentioned Pete George to me. I think he didn't want to steal all the limelight for himself. :) If he remembers me it's probably because I'm in Newfoundland, Canada ...quite a contrast to Hawaii.
You reminded me of an old Reg Park story ...when Reg Park first arrived in Vancouver in 1956, Ray Beck took him out on the town. He said that they staggered home fairly drunk early in the morning. At that time, Mr. Beck lived in the apartment above the gym. A few hours after they "passed out" he was awoken by a clanging in the gym downstairs. He went downstairs to see what was happening and Park was down there Front Squatting with 405 ...he said he couldn't miss his workout.
I tried the same thing one time in a little town south of Odessa, Ukraine. I drank half the vodka in Ukraine the night before, but I remembered what Mr. Beck had told me ...and I was all fired up because the gym was a real weightlifting dungeon and I was lifting those old red plates from the Soviet era. I'd glance over at the cyrillic letters on the plates and pound out another rep with visions of Alexeyev in my head (plus I had to show the Ukrainians how strong us westerners are ;)). Anyway, I ended up blacking out and woke up with an old Ukrainian lady taking my blood pressure. Certainly the strangest workout I can remember.
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Good story, Casey! I first met Reg when he was still a young pup in Oakland, California. (Mid 50's.) He covered for Steve Reeves at a contest in which Steve was supposed to make an appearence but could not show up for some unknown reason.
Reg came out of the audiance to help the promoter and did some strength feats with some special 90 pound dumbells. I don't recall how many times he pressed those dumbells overhead but I do recall that it impressed the hell out of me and I was no slacker when it came to doing that sort of lifting myself. (Nowhere 90's though!)
After Reg's strength demonstration, they held a raffel for an olympic set and I was just one number away from winning it. Strange that I recall that so vividly. An elderly lady won it and I often wondered how she ever got it home and if anyone ever lifted it once it got there.
BTW, is anyone in contact with Jon Jon? Or know what he is doing these days? Last I heard he was in the gym business somewhere down in the L.A. area.
I never did meet Mr Beck. At least I don't recall ever meeting him.
Does anyone here remember the old timer who had an amazing muscle control act during the days when Gene Mozee was MC'en the contests?
Casey, I guess you know that Dr Peter George was/is a dentist. The last time I spoke with him years ago, he was working on a snoring cure. Are you aware that them Hawaiin guys beat the York Olympic Team once? I think Tommy lived in Sacramento at that time but could be mistaken. And are you aware that Tommy won a prestigious bodybuilding contest while he was olympic lifting? That title escapes me at present.
Thanks for the memories, Casey. Great times in them old days.
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Good story, Casey! I first met Reg when he was still a young pup in Oakland, California. (Mid 50's.) He covered for Steve Reeves at a contest in which Steve was supposed to make an appearence but could not show up for some unknown reason.
Reg came out of the audiance to help the promoter and did some strength feats with some special 90 pound dumbells. I don't recall how many times he pressed those dumbells overhead but I do recall that it impressed the hell out of me and I was no slacker when it came to doing that sort of lifting myself. (Nowhere 90's though!)
After Reg's strength demonstration, they held a raffel for an olympic set and I was just one number away from winning it. Strange that I recall that so vividly. An elderly lady won it and I often wondered how she ever got it home and if anyone ever lifted it once it got there.
BTW, is anyone in contact with Jon Jon? Or know what he is doing these days? Last I heard he was in the gym business somewhere down in the L.A. area.
I never did meet Mr Beck. At least I don't recall ever meeting him.
Does anyone here remember the old timer who had an amazing muscle control act during the days when Gene Mozee was MC'en the contests?
Casey, I guess you know that Dr Peter George was/is a dentist. The last time I spoke with him years ago, he was working on a snoring cure. Are you aware that them Hawaiin guys beat the York Olympic Team once? I think Tommy lived in Sacramento at that time but could be mistaken. And are you aware that Tommy won a prestigious bodybuilding contest while he was olympic lifting? That title escapes me at present.
Thanks for the memories, Casey. Great times in them old days.
Park was very good at dumbells pressing: by 1956 could manage 125 in each hand.
Was the muscle control artist you mentioned Ed Jubinville?
Kono won the Mr. Universe which was connected sometimes to the World Weightlifting Championships.
If you know any more details about the Olympic set being raffled, please share. I was aware of a set being given away as a door prize at Terlazzo's fourth show in NYC, and always thought it would still be an excellent draw these days as a door prize - especially for someone who had driven to the show and could haul it away.
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joe, as sad as it sounds, based on my memory and info i bumped into while tracing drugs in sports and even narcotics or opiates in life in general, i'll have to agree with gh15 and say that we need to look at mr sandow for a food aided growth natural athlete.
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I think a large part of the problem when discussing the drug-free status of certain bodybuilders is simple jealousy. Drug-users don't want to admit that some people have built superior physiques than them, simply through hard work, time and dedication. And many natural athletes who have failed to achieve their physique goals prefer to believe that they have failed only because they're not taking steroids (i.e. "I'd be just as good as him if I was using steroids). All the strong and very well-built, drug-free lifters I have known have no problem accepting that Reeves, etc were drug-free. It's the drug-users and people who never seem to leave the "beginner" and "intermediate" categories that always point the finger.
Statistically, for my height and bone structure, I'm carrying roughly the same amount of muscle as Reeves. I'm completely drug-free, always was, and always will be ...and I have no problem whatsoever accepting that Reeves didn't take test.
The burden of proof lies on the accusers in this case. There's no physiological reason to believe that the pre-1960s lifters were hormone-users -- their levels of muscular development simply didn't necessitate it (that and the fact that they would not have had access to what was then an experimental drug that wasn't even FDA-approved for prescription). Statistical analyses of the American Weightlifting team performances (which have been published several times over the years in peer reviewed academic journals) indicates that it was the 1960s before western teams began using anabolics/androgenics.
So rather than cling desperately to the comforting illusion that all successful lifters have used drugs, it would be of much greater benefit to people if they used drug-free lifters as positive role models and examples of what can be achieved. Making unsubstantiated claims about people, based simply on unqualified personal bias, doesn't help the accuser or the accused in this case.
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u and reeves are alike ?...riiiight u are either a beginer and/or delussional....sorry..bu t it's true
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I think a large part of the problem when discussing the drug-free status of certain bodybuilders is simple jealousy. Drug-users don't want to admit that some people have built superior physiques than them, simply through hard work, time and dedication. And many natural athletes who have failed to achieve their physique goals prefer to believe that they have failed only because they're not taking steroids (i.e. "I'd be just as good as him if I was using steroids). All the strong and very well-built, drug-free lifters I have known have no problem accepting that Reeves, etc were drug-free. It's the drug-users and people who never seem to leave the "beginner" and "intermediate" categories that always point the finger.
Statistically, for my height and bone structure, I'm carrying roughly the same amount of muscle as Reeves. I'm completely drug-free, always was, and always will be ...and I have no problem whatsoever accepting that Reeves didn't take test.
The burden of proof lies on the accusers in this case. There's no physiological reason to believe that the pre-1960s lifters were hormone-users -- their levels of muscular development simply didn't necessitate it (that and the fact that they would not have had access to what was then an experimental drug that wasn't even FDA-approved for prescription). Statistical analyses of the American Weightlifting team performances (which have been published several times over the years in peer reviewed academic journals) indicates that it was the 1960s before western teams began using anabolics/androgenics.
So rather than cling desperately to the comforting illusion that all successful lifters have used drugs, it would be of much greater benefit to people if they used drug-free lifters as positive role models and examples of what can be achieved. Making unsubstantiated claims about people, based simply on unqualified personal bias, doesn't help the accuser or the accused in this case.
i noticed you have pointed out your achievements as compared to reeves. god knows how you've done this (comparison). are you the same body fat, structure, height, etc, etc or have you used some sort of scaling. if so you could probably refer to a dwarf or even a dog comparing with reeves. needless to say it's fraught with danger ie stating that park and reeves were the same muscle mass wise gave me a good belly laugh.
look, let's not get all defensive or turn this into a pissing contest worthy of the gossip section. jesus, maybe we could go 700 pages or something.
people on this thread no a shit load more than me on bbing history i can tell you that much and, as for reeves, i will reserve judgement.
but please, don't tell me i'm jealous because i can tell the difference between urine and lemonade and know when i've been pissed on, which is exactly what bbing 'authorities' have being doing to us for decades, telling us a WHOLE bunch of BULL SHIT.
i happen to be interested in just how far this fraud goes and how far back. i am not judging any of the competitors because they did what they had to do, whether that be eating bananas or dianabol, but i'm curious.
why wouldn't i be curious? scientists and doctors were telling us that anabolics didn't even build muscle whilst weider was selling milk powder marked up by about a million %. well, i guess he got rich as hell in the end, but i feel cheated out of the 20 odd dollars i spent on the mail order tub of 'massive weight gainer' when i was 16 years old. i didn't get anything but a severe case of diarrhoea from that stuff (thank god. i might have bought some more).
i want to know just how much anabolics actually made a difference. i am not remotely interested in individuals (sorry, i couldn't give a shit about reeves, park or arnold for that matter), but excuse me for being a little confused when i see a guy at one end of the spectrum recommending all day sessions 6 days a week along with 600 odd grams of protein (arnold, nubret, callender) and then the other side there's the complete opposite ie least amount of time possible (training) and nil emphasis on protein (mentzer, viator), then there's some in between, some that emphasize diet, some training, etc. i've got arthur jones disciples telling me they know exactly what truly develops muscle and then the most recent article i've read on jones has the man himself stating that neither he nor anyone else KNOW exactly what develops muscle and strength.
i know there has to be one consistant amongst all these individuals apart from genetics (which no one can do anything about so why even mention it?).
i assure you i am not jealous. i am not even a bber (although i have a vested interest in speed, power and strength in relation to my chosen sport) and i weigh 230lbs in very good shape (although i have taken steroids so that should make the heroes feel better. i've just eliminated myself from any potential pissing contest). i have no doubt i can get a great deal bigger if i wanted to (with anabolics as an essential inclusion of course;D) but it would impede my goals ie speed, agility, stamina, skill. having a shit load of muscle on my frame is sometimes tempting (i'd personally take being as big and strong as a gorilla over agility and endurance any day), but i know it absolutely kills my performance every time i get seduced.
enough about you and i. on with the pursuit of knowledge.
the wonderful thing about message boards is that we can totally disregard established societal criterion re burden of proof/political correctness/religious belief/prejudice/bias. let the discussion flow and the anal retentive go f**k themselves i say.
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Some of you guys kill me.
Who cares if Steve did or did not use gear?
You all make it sound that if any guy (even with poor genetic disposition) took gear.....they would be huge, large & strong.
Steve very well may have been natural. Then again...he may have experimented once or twice...who cares. Honestly, Steve has a great physique....but it's nothing I would aspire wanting to look like. In the Golden Age of bodybuilding....I look at Arnold, Franco, Dave, & Bill as aspirations.
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Some of you guys kill me.
Who cares if Steve did or did not use gear?
You all make it sound that if any guy (even with poor genetic disposition) took gear.....they would be huge, large & strong.
Steve very well may have been natural. Then again...he may have experimented once or twice...who cares. Honestly, Steve has a great physique....but it's nothing I would aspire wanting to look like. In the Golden Age of bodybuilding....I look at Arnold, Franco, Dave, & Bill as aspirations.
i absolutely agree
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Gh15, I just have to say that it certainly seems like when it comes to Steve
Reeves, your thoughts and words are driven more by (some sort of) jealousy than by logic (as in philosophy).
'47 America competitor, Eric Pedersen was said to feel and act quite jealous towards Reeves. Might you be GH15 a competitor from those days? You obviously do not live in America (not that that's important, but just as point).
What axe are you grinding, and why? I guess it was a great idea to start your
thread on Reeves, etc., but geez, how many daggers must you throw. Your
comments on Reeves and an absence of children just makes nooooo sense. How many children do you have? Has that made you a better person than the next guy (other than the importance all good fathers place on being just that...). Also, does being a father mean a person is excempt from any wrongdoing, or indecretion in life. Further, a fatherless man is one more selfish and deceitful than not?
It's great in this alleged debate that we can have people like Joe Roark, Only,
and Stuntmovie (I'm biased with stunt cause he's a former Marine officer
and Vietnam Vet, for personal reasons only) provide their input because of
their vast experience and in some cases, first-hand.
And Casey you have brought forth some great research elements, not to mention what looks like, a very muscular physique. And I understood your
analogy was for example. I didn't take it as self-adulation at all. That's the
biggest problem I have with the net and these forums: People have a
tendency to take things out of context and formulate their own slant or
agenda, whatever that may be (and get away with it).
Really, though, most contributors have added to the discource of this subject.
But, in a way, we just end up going around towards 360 degrees and ending
up in the same place. Some contributors I feel have not really taken the time
to read every sentence and paragraph to ascertain proper context. Sometimes,
all of us should re-read things others say or write before jumping off a bridge
with baited breath. Some of these points that seem to know no bounds, just
keep a life of their own...when they don't deserve the time of day! (Stunt,
can you imagine going around in circles with broken compass in the jungle?)
What more can a person say about the same thing(s)? Repetition works much
better in the weight room than it does on a message board (and I tend to be
a lower rep man, so...).
More dittos!
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look, let's not get all defensive or turn this into a pissing contest worthy of the gossip section. jesus, maybe we could go 700 pages or something.
Funny because this Beastiality does everything he just listed on other boards, due to the fact that he has no life.
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Gh15, I just have to say that it certainly seems like when it comes to Steve
Reeves, your thoughts and words are driven more by (some sort of) jealousy than by logic (as in philosophy).
'47 America competitor, Eric Pedersen was said to feel and act quite jealous towards Reeves. Might you be GH15 a competitor from those days? You obviously do not live in America (not that that's important, but just as point).
What axe are you grinding, and why? I guess it was a great idea to start your
thread on Reeves, etc., but geez, how many daggers must you throw. Your
comments on Reeves and an absence of children just makes nooooo sense. How many children do you have? Has that made you a better person than the next guy (other than the importance all good fathers place on being just that...). Also, does being a father mean a person is excempt from any wrongdoing, or indecretion in life. Further, a fatherless man is one more selfish and deceitful than not?
It's great in this alleged debate that we can have people like Joe Roark, Only,
and Stuntmovie (I'm biased with stunt cause he's a former Marine officer
and Vietnam Vet, for personal reasons only) provide their input because of
their vast experience and in some cases, first-hand.
And Casey you have brought forth some great research elements, not to mention what looks like, a very muscular physique. And I understood your
analogy was for example. I didn't take it as self-adulation at all. That's the
biggest problem I have with the net and these forums: People have a
tendency to take things out of context and formulate their own slant or
agenda, whatever that may be (and get away with it).
Really, though, most contributors have added to the discource of this subject.
But, in a way, we just end up going around towards 360 degrees and ending
up in the same place. Some contributors I feel have not really taken the time
to read every sentence and paragraph to ascertain proper context. Sometimes,
all of us should re-read things others say or write before jumping off a bridge
with baited breath. Some of these points that seem to know no bounds, just
keep a life of their own...when they don't deserve the time of day! (Stunt,
can you imagine going around in circles with broken compass in the jungle?)
What more can a person say about the same thing(s)? Repetition works much
better in the weight room than it does on a message board (and I tend to be
a lower rep man, so...).
More dittos!
no my friend,,as i said over 100 times before,,im a CURRENT IFBB pro bodybuilder. i LIKE steeve reeves the bodybuilder
but i know what it takes since i been there and still are (Thank you lord)
yes steve reeves didnt have my muscle mass,,but so are many other wonderful physiqes around the usa and the rest of the world,,,that visit gyms day in day out and are hormonized to some degree.
the reason i mentioned children here is to show you how selfish one can be,,,you know you can adopt kids at your late 40s,,,you dont have to actually make them,,,he didnt bother with kids because he was self centered,,,no time for kids in his world,, period.
the reason i mentioned age 73,,,,is to demonstrate how an "amazing genetics" went kapoot at quite young age for this times. its not like he was born in 1824,,,you are talking here about a "HEALTH" freak that passed away before he touched the number 75. you got ronald reagan with ALZHEIMER living to see age 94!! you gotta get back to reailty my friend,,,this sport is very concited full of blown egos and fragile self esteems,,,when you build your career as a "natural",,,you wont let any one destroy you,,,even as of 2000s,,just ask skip,,,or maybe not ;)
you dont need to be a rocket scientist to connect the dots. listen to someone who is in the game and big big time in the game,,sandow was natural,,,jack L was natural (not london ;)) ......reeves,, ummm he was what we call today clean.
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Reeves carried just under 25% more lean body mass than the average "fit" man of his height and structure ...as do I. That assessment is based on about 10 years of research into, and analysis of, anthropometric data. I have degrees in mathematics and statistics, physics and engineering that allow such analysis. I don't mean to throw credentials around, I mention it merely to assure you that I'm no stranger to the scientific process or the analysis of data ...in fact, it's my "job".
Many natural trainees around the world, carry a similar (and greater) level of development than me. I didn't claim that I have a better physique than Reeves, that my "achievement" is in any way equal to his, or that we are "alike". I simply stated that, proportionally, we have added roughly the same amount of muscle mass to our frames. I will also state that with the proper training, dedication and patience almost anybody can do the same thing. If that offends some people then I think they probably aren't mature enough to warrant a response anyway. But I would also add that it is easy to call me delusional, but I am one of the few people here who is posting under his real name with his real photo in the corner. I may be under a "delusion", but I am not attempting to hide behind an "illusion" of any sort.
How I compared Reeves and Park: There is nothing funny about it. Reeves weighed 213 when he won the Mr. Universe in 1950. Park weighed 214 when he won it the following year. They are both the same height, however Park had an 8" wrist versus Reeves' 7.5" wrist. They both had the same ankle measurement. Also, Park was slightly leaner in 1951 than Reeves was in 1950. Therefore, Park carried, at most, only a few pounds more muscle mass than Reeves, and his heavier upper body bone structure would predict that.
It really doesn't matter to me if Reeves used drugs or not. However, for some people it does because strong positive role-models are necessary for drug-free beginners and intermediates. People need to know what is capable without drugs so they know where to set ambitious, but realistic, goals for themselves ...without the use of drugs.
I joined this board compulsively when I saw some obvious misinformation being spread by people who, quite honestly, aren't qualified to speak authoritatively on this subject. I don't consider myself an "authority" but I do know a lot more than most people about this - I've been at this for a long time and I've seen this stuff hashed around for years. At the same time, there are some people on here who do speak with some authority on these matters. I cannot state emphatically that any of these men did or did not use drugs. However, given the history of anabolic steroids, and the level of development they carried, I can say that it was highly unlikely that they were drug-users.
Ahhh Jay -- a perfect example of a man with a well-developed physique who feels no need to doubt or slander the "old-timers". Thanks for the "support", by the way, but I'm afraid this thread definitely has that "gettin' ugly" smell to it. ;)
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Yea, GH15, and while connecting the DOTS as you said doesn't take a
rocket scientist, it apparently takes more than some people on this thread are
capable of surmising??
Regarding your comments about health and longevity, where Steve has taken
additional knocks from you. I can relate to anyone's frustration over Steve's
death, at his age. Afterall, he exemplifies the strong, heathly, robust male, to
say the least. The screen Hercules who looked the part in real life.
Remember health crusader Paul Bragg? He died at 94. And even then people
wondered WHY? Larry Lewis (S.F. jogger) was 104 and worked full-time and
was a picture of health...and died one day in his sleep (just as I was to get
set to interview him). People couldn't believe it, even though he was 104.
On the flip side of that coin, entertainer Bob Hope, anything but a fitness
follower died at 100. Nobody was surprised except those who wondered how
he lasted that long? Comedian George Burns, a heavy cigar smoker his whole
life, who once admited his only exercise was trying to get uP to exercise, also
died at 100!
But there are elements--as I'm sure you must realize--that play a major role
in someone's life, far, far above all the material factors we all consider so vital
in predicting someone's existence, including fate.
Think of it this way, other than the obvious that when its your time, its your
time (out of your control, perhaps circumventing your own determined destiny)
had Steve Reeves NOT been so proactive in his fitness, bodybuilding life, and
had Larry Lewis not been the same, Steve may have passed at...58, 60...and
Larry Lewis at 85-90. In otherwords, as much as it will probably assist people
to live longer and healthier, exercising and diet and lifestyle is not an absolute
guarantee to live to a riper, older age. Nothing is absolute but death itself.
And often, there's no rhyme or reason to it. People who live like Geoege Burns
and are lucky to do everything and still live to a 100, would probably have
lived to 110-115 had he been a fitness bug like Lewis was. It goes both
ways. But it always boils down to personal genetics, life's destiny, fate and the spiritual aspects, however one defines that (or if they even do).
Speaking of which, you said, "thank you lord".
I'm certainly no expert in this area but shouldn't a person so "aligned" with the
lord be more accepting and unconditional in accepting other people, and less
critical and judgemental?
Or, I'm I being too judgemental myself?
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no my friend,,as i said over 100 times before,,im a CURRENT IFBB pro bodybuilder. i LIKE steeve reeves the bodybuilder
but i know what it takes since i been there and still are (Thank you lord)
yes steve reeves didnt have my muscle mass,,but so are many other wonderful physiqes around the usa and the rest of the world,,,that visit gyms day in day out and are hormonized to some degree.
the reason i mentioned children here is to show you how selfish one can be,,,you know you can adopt kids at your late 40s,,,you dont have to actually make them,,,he didnt bother with kids because he was self centered,,,no time for kids in his world,, period.
the reason i mentioned age 73,,,,is to demonstrate how an "amazing genetics" went kapoot at quite young age for this times. its not like he was born in 1824,,,you are talking here about a "HEALTH" freak that passed away before he touched the number 75. you got ronald reagan with ALZHEIMER living to see age 94!! you gotta get back to reailty my friend,,,this sport is very concited full of blown egos and fragile self esteems,,,when you build your career as a "natural",,,you wont let any one destroy you,,,even as of 2000s,,just ask skip,,,or maybe not ;)
you dont need to be a rocket scientist to connect the dots. listen to someone who is in the game and big big time in the game,,sandow was natural,,,jack L was natural (not london ;)) ......reeves,, ummm he was what we call today clean.
Not having kids indicates nothing. One of the main reasons why Jeff and Cory broke up is because she wanted kids and he noway wanted any kids. Some poeple just don't want kids. It doesn't mean they are self-centered. I have two awesome kids but they too weren't planned. And if I didn't have them I probably wouldn't have had any either. I love kids but my lifestyle back then just wasn't targeted towards kids. I believe Steve took roids maybe once in his life. Just to see what would happen. His lifestyle and the way he embraced healthy eating and living just doesn't coincide with someone who takes roids regularly. Huge mass was not something he wanted. Outrageous strength is nothing he needed. And to me the only reason to take roids is to either get stronger or get bigger. Why else take them.
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Casey:
'this thread is getting an ugly smell'? ok, i thought it was pretty confrontational from the outset, but there you go.
i don't buy your body weight theory and i certainly don't think your studies, physique or 'real name/pic' make you anything but someone that wants to talk about themselves.
no offence, but i'm sure the intention of this thread was not to discuss you and your 'credentials' Casey Butt.
it's quite simple, reg park much more heavily muscled at his peak than steve reeves. any way you want to spin it that's what it comes down to and, as for you and reeves? well, refer above.
some people always want to complain about message board opinions and the anonymity of it all ???
hello, this is a message board people. it's what happens around here. we don't just sit down and read a seminar from Jay Em, Casey Butt or gh 15, we argue about shit ;D or should i say, debate topics in a very mature and sensible way?
anyway, i disagree with gh re age and genetics. it is very conceivable that steve had the genetics for a superb physique minus those required for longevity. in any case, imo, 73 aint bad.
i agree with gh's assertion that reeves was self absorbed. that much is obvious to me. i will also agree that, IMO, steve would have taken something to aid his performance given the chance, so the dependant factor, to me (can i stop with the caveats now? i think so), would be the availability of these substances which is currently fruit for some debate.
you see, reeves was a competitor. in fact he was a top competitor, the best in the world to be exact and he was very aware that this was his entire selling point since he didn't seem to advance from the product being entirely based on his physique, unlike schwarzenegger for example.
it is entirely within reason that this man was ready to take something (that wasn't considered dangerous at the time btw) to help him stay slightly ahead of the competition so to speak. again, this man's physique was his livelihood and legacy and yes, he was self absorbed. perhaps, maybe even extremely narcissistic.
yes, depending on the availability of hormones at the time, i believe there would be nothing stopping him taking them and, maybe at the same time still chew his food 20 times.
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"BEAST 8692", I'm forced to conclude that you either have insecurity issues or a learning disability.
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Casey, I've noticed that a lot on here, but it could be possible that a lot of this input is coming from kids who are either bodybuilding fans with a desire to sound important or from bodybuilding anti-fans who have no business here in the first place.
I, myself, am not concerned whether Reeves took roids or not, but my concern lies in the fact that people can come on here and make accusations against anyone and everyone and not be held accountable for their actions.
In the old days before we had free speech on the computer, you were most likely free to confront the individual after school if you had something adverse to state and he would be free to retaliate with a punch in the nose. And no one would ever speak adversely in public about an individual who had passed away no matter what the circumstances were.
Back when Steve was a kid, we were all held accountable for actions and suffered the consequences when we f----k'd up.
In Steve's day, parents took measures to insure that their kids followed the straight and narrow.
And if we got pulled before a judge, or confronted by a police officer; our parents were right there beside us getting lectured by the same authoritiy because they were responsible for the way we carried on.
Back then, no one except major drug users, even thought of sticking a needle in their ass or in their arm.
Even in the early 60's the athletes I knew were extremely adverse to the use of needles and it took a while to make that transition way after Reeves was out of the picture.
K, good talken to ya all. Heading out to sea for a couple of weeks.
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ha ha, now i've ruffled some feathers.
i have no idea how anyone can take offence to my comments. please point out exactly where i have accused mr reeves of anything???
what i've done is, perhaps, offend a couple of egos on a message board. to have an ego on a message board is truly pathetic.
take a breath and think about that for a moment and then remove your head from your ass.
stunt, i assure you, i would have no problem at all stating what i have stated in person. in fact i am very much prepared to meet up and state it in person. if, then, you or anyone else are offended by what i say and want to punch me in the nose, please go ahead and do your best. invitation is actually a defence to assault so you have a green light to go ahead and make me accountable for my actions tough guy.
i did not want to turn this into a pissing contest and if anyone bothers to take the time to read what i have said with an open mind they will see that.
i have stated that i don't know anywhere near the knowledge of bbing history and steve reeves that some on this thread have, nevertheless i have no problem giving my opinion on specific matters pertaining to and will continue to do so.
i hope i have made myself clear enough that we can get off the subject of me and get back to the topic.
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ha ha, now i've ruffled some feathers.
i have no idea how anyone can take offence to my comments. please point out exactly where i have accused mr reeves of anything???
what i've done is, perhaps, offend a couple of egos on a message board. to have an ego on a message board is truly pathetic.
take a breath and think about that for a moment and then remove your head from your ass.
stunt, i assure you, i would have no problem at all stating what i have stated in person. in fact i am very much prepared to meet up and state it in person. if, then, you or anyone else are offended by what i say and want to punch me in the nose, please go ahead and do your best. invitation is actually a defence to assault so you have a green light to go ahead and make me accountable for my actions tough guy.
i did not want to turn this into a pissing contest and if anyone bothers to take the time to read what i have said with an open mind they will see that.
i have stated that i don't know anywhere near the knowledge of bbing history and steve reeves that some on this thread have, nevertheless i have no problem giving my opinion on specific matters pertaining to and will continue to do so.
i hope i have made myself clear enough that we can get off the subject of me and get back to the topic.
Beast don't threaten people on this board. Cause I would have NO problem to telling you when I am on the mainland and we can talk. Till then no more threats or I will ban you from this board. This board is different from the others. So play right or don't come back.
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Beast don't threaten people on this board. Cause I would have NO problem to telling you when I am on the mainland and we can talk. Till then no more threats or I will ban you from this board. This board is different from the others. So play right or don't come back.
i know you are good friends with stunt, but i don't think you've read all the comments onlyme.
i have not/am not threatening anyone here and won't ever.
i was responding to comments that i would not say this in person and that, at one time, if you did you would get 'punched in the nose'.
all i'm saying is that i WOULD say what i have said in person (to stunt, you or anyone else). it is someone else's perogative if they want to try punching me. i don't know you or stunt and you guys don't know me so it is would be completely ridiculous to play key board tough guy.
onlyme, i have said i don't want to turn the thread into a pissing contest and i do have respect for this board and appreciate the vast knowledge displayed here by the likes of stunt and yourself. i call a spade a spade and sometimes people get offended by that, both in reality and on here. maybe, in some people's opinion, my communication skills suck but my intention is anything but provocation. i come here to learn things not get sidetracked with keyboard egos. i assure you i have the best intentions on this board and you can just take a quick look back at the thread and you will see that i have ignored a gossip section troll taking repeated shots at me because i DIDN'T want the thread to get buried in bull shit.
maybe you could point out what i have done to inflame and i will avoid it in future?
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i know you are good friends with stunt, but i don't think you've read all the comments onlyme.
i have not/am not threatening anyone here and won't ever.
i was responding to comments that i would not say this in person and that, at one time, if you did you would get 'punched in the nose'.
all i'm saying is that i WOULD say what i have said in person (to stunt, you or anyone else). it is someone else's perogative if they want to try punching me. i don't know you or stunt and you guys don't know me so it is would be completely ridiculous to play key board tough guy.
onlyme, i have said i don't want to turn the thread into a pissing contest and i do have respect for this board and appreciate the vast knowledge displayed here by the likes of stunt and yourself. i call a spade a spade and sometimes people get offended by that, both in reality and on here. maybe, in some people's opinion, my communication skills suck but my intention is anything but provocation. i come here to learn things not get sidetracked with keyboard egos. i assure you i have the best intentions on this board and you can just take a quick look back at the thread and you will see that i have ignored a gossip section troll taking repeated shots at me because i DIDN'T want the thread to get buried in bull shit.
maybe you could point out what i have done to inflame and i will avoid it in future?
I take the following you put as a threat.
stunt, i assure you, i would have no problem at all stating what i have stated in person. in fact i am very much prepared to meet up and state it in person. if, then, you or anyone else are offended by what i say and want to punch me in the nose, please go ahead and do your best. invitation is actually a defence to assault so you have a green light to go ahead and make me accountable for my actions tough guy.
This case is close and back about Steve. Stunt is my friend and have known him since 1989 or so. He is one of the most honest people I know and if you knew who he really was and what he has done in the BB industry and his direct connection with BB then I am pretty sure you would read his posts with a more open opinion. His memory sometime goofs up but most of the time it is remarkable. Lets stay on with Steve. I think even Stev would laugh at how long this thread is about this issue.
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I take the following you put as a threat.
This case is close and back about Steve. Stunt is my friend and have known him since 1989 or so. He is one of the most honest people I know and if you knew who he really was and what he has done in the BB industry and his direct connection with BB then I am pretty sure you would read his posts with a more open opinion. His memory sometime goofs up but most of the time it is remarkable. Lets stay on with Steve. I think even Stev would laugh at how long this thread is about this issue.
you're right, i have fell into the bullshit trap and taken things the wrong way.
apologies to you and stunt.
reeves, well i didn't know him at all and it is clear some here did (which is amazing). i can see how, knowing the man, they can take offence to what i have assumed about his personality. maybe i deserve a punch in the nose just for that.
i do like open debate though, where people just throw it all in there uninhibited by religion, politics, etc, but i guess you do NEED to get that balance with respect, especially when it comes to a deceased legend like Steve Reeves.
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Reeves carried just under 15% more lean body mass than the average "fit" man of his height and structure ...as do I. That assessment is based on about 10 years of research into, and analysis of, anthropometric data. I have degrees in mathematics and statistics, physics and engineering that allow such analysis. I don't mean to throw credentials around, I mention it merely to assure you that I'm no stranger to the scientific process or the analysis of data ...in fact, it's my "job".
0
Hmmm so your using engineering to understand a question of biology. So could you please enlighten some of us on what your data is. Or did you do a bunch of drawing's in AUTOCAD.
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you're right, i have fell into the bullshit trap and taken things the wrong way.
apologies to you and stunt.
reeves, well i didn't know him at all and it is clear some here did (which is amazing). i can see how, knowing the man, they can take offence to what i have assumed about his personality. maybe i deserve a punch in the nose just for that.
i do like open debate though, where people just throw it all in there uninhibited by religion, politics, etc, but i guess you do NEED to get that balance with respect, especially when it comes to a deceased legend like Steve Reeves.
I knew you were a good man under that screen name. I screw off more than anyone on these boards. But this board is different to me. I was brought up to respect my elders. But when they are not only older but are true legends and have done things I can only dream about then I try to give as much respect as humanly possible. To be able to know or talk to any legend is a honor. And unless I see with my own eyes something that one of my legends do wrong then I will always put them on a pedestal. Arnold was an idol of mine as a kid. I got a chance to meet and work with him on several occassions. Now my respect has lessen but not gone away.
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No need to apologize to me, Beast. I take no offense to what you stated to me whatsoever. (Thanks for your courtesy though.)
I got to admit that I do feel strongly against any unproven accusations directed against good people who are unable to offer a rebuttal in defense. And that statement is directed to life in general and not merely about this topic.
Steve definitely falls into that non-defensible jurisdiction.
A couple of Steve's real good friends are still among the living and I am doing my best to contact one that I know well and get his "viewpoint" but may not have access to a computer to locate him for the next few weeks.
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However, for some people it does because strong positive role-models are necessary for drug-free beginners and intermediates. People need to know what is capable without drugs so they know where to set ambitious, but realistic, goals for themselves ...without the use of drugs.
Very true, and I can surely relate to that need to be able to relate to an attainnable goal, via a positive role-model that sets the standard.
Unfortunately, eventually in life you learn not all is as it seems. Try finding a sport that hasnt been in the headlines in the past 3 decades for doping. Never mind other extra curricular activities our heroes indulge in...
One thing is for sure, although I wasnt around then, Steve Reeves is known as a real gentleman that conducted himself as the dignified role model, and athlete/actor he was, so was Reg Park, and I'm led to believe many others of their day. I'm pretty sure they werent perfect, but they kept the dirty laundry indoors. And thats how we like to remember our heroes, as dignified, distinguished individuals we can attempt to emulate.
I agree with onlyme, S. Reeves probably did take/experiment, but it wasnt what made him, it just doesnt appear that way.
One thing that did cross my mind (pure conjecture), when Reeves filmed in Italy, and other locations, what with hectic schedules, lack of good nutritional foods, shortage of training equipment, then, it would make sense to take substances to hold on to muscle and conditioning. To clarify, I'm not trying to make up stories, as I have no idea as to what I'm talking about(I wasnt there, and I didnt know them), but it would make sense towards the end of his filming career, for maintenance purposes, to indulge in hrt.
Either way, his physique was/is the standard, and I havent seen it duplicated, and its got a great deal to do with his perfect structure and genetics.
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Yes, I have that book and it was personally sent to me by the Man himself
(in Valley Center), in 1999. I kept the hand printed envelope, too. I paid
around twenty bucks for it. It was also signed (autographed) personally by
Steve.
Stunt, have a nice, relaxing time out at sea. And don't let some steroid-
enduced monster fish pull you overboard (you better not Marine...).
Beast, your bites didn't have rabies but your apologies were dignified. Just
realize some of us oldtimers like to protect others good name, especially when
it was/is deserved, like in Steve's case.
I'll stick with everything I said and wrote 100%.
Only, do you still turn wrists once in awhile??
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You should be able to get it STILL from the Steve Reeves International
Society, run by George Goates.
But I'm not sure. There was suppose to be a Reeves Room somewhere up
in LA, dedicated to his memory...with alot of keepsakes. But I've never heard
mention of it anywhere since his death in 2000.
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Jay, ship still in dock so I gotta ask ya this.......
Who was the young guy I met at the Arnold a couple of years back that was in the Steve Reeves Society Booth and bore a similar look to Steve and was quite proud of it? Do you know whom I am speaking of?
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While on the subject of Reeves ....... in 1954 he appeared in a major Hollywood movie called ATHENA with Jane Powell and Debbie Reynolds that was about a family of health nuts living in a nice house above Hollywood.
The storyline has Steve training for some movie bodybuilding contest and winning it at the very end
Steve was probably in top shape in that film if I recall correctly. I think it's still available in VHS format and will give you a good idea of Steve's prime condition back in those days (or damn close to it).
Nothing like the muscle on today's contenders.
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Boy, that's a puzzle Stunt on that society booth question of yours.
I don't have an earthly clue.
Obviously, it wasn't George Goates...
________________________ ________
And thanks for that info on ATHENA. I'm definately going to have to check it
out.
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Jay, Steve personally corrected me about the name of his first feature film and it is now available on DVD for some unknown reason.
It's called "Jail Bait" and really not too good and was one of Ed Wood's original films. (1954)
It would be interesting to find out how Steve got that part and then went directly to Athena.
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Hmmm so your using engineering to understand a question of biology. So could you please enlighten some of us on what your data is. Or did you do a bunch of drawing's in AUTOCAD.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions there, and your sarcasm tells me that you probably don't have the education or ability to understand this subject fully. But you probably deserve some credit for being familiar with a software program that most first-year engineering students are at least familiar with. However, if you were familiar with engineering you'd probably also know that after first-year, most engineers (outside of some mechanical, civil and naval courses) actually use AUTOCAD very little.
But, for the benefit of the people reading this board who actually are interested in this subject and have the statistics background to understand it: I did a regression analysis on population data. Such statistics are readily available and statistical analyses have been performed by others as well. I took anthropometric data from many sources and used the averages to estimate lean body mass based on height and structure. Then I used data from several studies of drug-free and drug-using lifters and adapted the regression to fit them as well. The results show clearly that most people can add, at most, 25% lean body mass before the use of anabolic steroids is necessary. Some individuals can exceed this, but they would be relative outliers on the Guassian distribution. Above that amount and anabolic steroid use becomes more and more likely. With regards to Dr. Harrison Pope's work with the fat-free mass index (FFMI), this would indicate that drug-free genetically elite bodybuilders can achieve a FFMI of about 25 before steroid use becomes almost a guarantee. In very rare cases, a FFMI of 26 has been achieved by drug-free lifters of heavier bone structure.
Interestingly, Reg Park had a FFMI of about 26 in 1951 (when he first won the Mr. Universe), but he had a relatively heavy bone structure. Reeves FFMI was closer to 25, on a lighter bone structure. Grimek, Delinger and Eiferman also hovered around 25-26. In the early 1960s bodybuilders commonly exceeded this.
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Casey, in relation to Reg Park, are you performing your analysis of him at his peak or at the early stages of his career?
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Casey, in relation to Reg Park, are you performing your analysis of him at his peak or at the early stages of his career?
Before 1958. I haven't really looked into his stats after that -- 1958 is my "cutoff". Park's physique didn't change much in terms of overall mass from 1951 to 1958 -- he was actually 1 pound lighter in 1958 when he won the pro Mr. Universe than he was when he won in 1951. He was 213 in '58 and 214 in '51. From 1949 to 1951 he went from 205 to 214 as his competition weight.
Park and Reeves onstage at the 1950 Mr. Universe (which Reeves won)...
(http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/hercules/regpark/regpark29.jpg)
Park a year later in 1951...
(http://www.classicbodybuilders.co.uk/50s/park1.jpg)
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he looks pretty dense and cut there, but wtf is he doing with his arms. that pose is not doing his arms any favours. i believe he got thicker towards the end of his career, but he's pretty thick there, especially through the legs, traps and delts.
excellent upper body definition, great back
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Beast, I saw Park at an event in Oakland, California in which he filled in for Reeves as a special guest. I think the year was 55 or 56 and he was a lot thicker by then. In fact he did not even guest pose. Instead he did a number of heavy lifts as mentioned earlier and drew the number out of a hat for the Olympic Set. I recall now that that number was one less than the number on my ticket.
Strength and muscle control acts were relatively common back then, but Steve was not known for doing any.
Tommy Kono will be long remembered for driving a nail held in his fist through a board and blowing up a hot water bottle till it burst.
And Gypsy Boots would throw a football an amazing distance for an old guy in one event that was held on a baseball field in Palm Springs. That was the year Don Peterson won the BB contest and one of the original Mission Impossible cast members placed second or third.
Someone mentioned Ed Jubinville as the muscle control showman at that time but I think he only performed back east, so it is strongly possible that he was not the one I recall seeing in SoCal a number of times. (Sorry but I lost that Jubinville post and did not respond.) Mozee will be able to refresh my mind on that one, I think.
I told a bodybuilder/hot water bottle story on this site once in the History Section and I know for a fact that Only has done it a number of times for kids of all ages to enjoy.
BTW. I have never seen a Reg Park shot when he was lean and "narrow" such as the one above. Thanks, Casey.
PS... Do any of you old timers recall Judy Miller of So Cal?? ANd who was the "old feller" who used to MC those original events at the Embassy Auditorium? Gene Mozee did the MC'ing numerous times but there was an old gentleman who filled in on occasion. Anyone recall?
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Stunt, I thought you were out to sea? Are you in dry dock now?
The name Judy Miller rings a little familiar but can't say for sure; I just think I
recall the name.
Regarding the MC question. That wouldn't have been Bud Parker, would it?
Personally, even though I don't go back further than the late fifties (I'm 60 now), I've always thought the strength and muscle control acts were great, and saw a few back in Minnesota in early 60s. I'm of the old school thinking that physique contests should have always included some display of athletic ability to showcase the muscles and their application and usefullness; not JUST for show exclusively. I think by keeping those acts--and what was required of the participants--would have contributed to bodybuilding not going to such monsterous extremes in development (as it would have been pretty hard to do many of those things with such muscle size and limited movement...). And Bob Hoffman has always taken a hit for incorperating lifting with physique. I still say it wasn't a bad idea as it included more of the athletic into the mix. But, they could have greatly expanded the concept to include more virations of strength, flexibility, and athletic prowess. Bodybuilding would have been more generally accepted, and embraced more by the mainstream sports community.
And while Reeves may not have been known for doing those things on stage,
he was capable of numerous strength stunts and was quite powerful; but,
it wasn't his number #1 forte.
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Perhaps the Oakland show was the annual Ed Yarick show? After missing a show in 1955, Ed resumed on April 21, 1956 and Park was there. The event is covered in Ironman, Sep 1956, though no mention of muscle control, and the emcee is not named.
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Jay, my day at sea got cancelled and that's good.
The name 'Bud Parker' doesn't sound familiar, Jay, unless he was that bulky blond haired older guy who was often mentioned in the old Iron Man pubs by Mabel and Perry Raider whom I met on a frequent basis back then. (Very nice country folk.)
One major problem with Hoffman's association with bodybuilding is that he simply used the bodybuilders to draw the fans to fill the seats during the Olympic lifting which was just about as exciting as watching wet paint dry to most people.
This went on for a long time with the start of powerlifting too and many a bodybuilding contest started way past midnight. This was one of the major reasons why the AAU was deserted in favor of the NPC. Long story there but that is it in a nutshell.
I participated in that meeting when Hoffman's people and Dan Lauri (spelling?) and Ben and Joe Weider and the original NPC "founders" fought it out at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium and decided to side with the IFBB. That decision was mainly based on the excellentand well spoken presentation presented by Ben Weider. He was mild mannered and articulate and definitely presented himself and his objectives well; while the others opposed to him were simply verbose and hostile. (At least that is the way I recall it.)
At that meeting, the NPC agreed to recognize the IFBB as the world governing body for the "sport" and the IFBB agreed to not promote amateur events in the US and thereby recognize the NPC as the only governing body for amateur contests in the US .... not exactly the way it was stated but similar.
This passed over the objections of many in the audiance but it did get the NPC on its feet.
Manion was voted in as President in Atlanta, Georgia after a successful run against Kenneth "Doc" Neeley. I personally give Pete Grymkowski all the credit for getting all the voters together in favor of Manion, but no one back then figured it would be a lifetime position. I believe that was the same year that Ray Mentzer won the Nationals. Almost sure of that.
A guy by the name of Jerome Wiese deserves that credit for doing all the paperwork that was required to set up the NPC legally and he also was the main man behind the publishing of the original NPC Rules and Regulations. (Anyone got a copy?)
OK, Jay, thanks for helping to refresh my memory.
Joe, that date seems about right and I think that Yarick was the only one in Oakland with a real gym at that time. And I sort of recall that Steve was mentioned on the poster with no mention of Reg Park (who appeared on his behalf at the last minute).
That muscle control act I referred to was in Los Angeles in the early 60's at the Embassy and I think I recall a similar routine at the Golden Gate YMCA in San Francisco when Bill Stathis organized bodybuilding events there. (Who was that old time stevadore who did some phenominal bench pressing at a very late age under Bill's tutaledge back then?)
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The bench presser was perhaps Karl Norberg? Used to bench sometimes with his legs straight on the bench- zero arch, bullishly strong.
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The bench presser was perhaps Karl Norberg? Used to bench sometimes with his legs straight on the bench- zero arch, bullishly strong.
Didn't he bench like 400 lbs when he was 70? No shirt, no arch, just strength. He was one of those guys that defy nature. :)
Stunt, Park was surprisingly narrow-shouldered when he was 19. If I can find the old photos I'll post them. He's a perfect example of a man who built width through hard work and knowing how to pose (and incredible delts). I'm not saying that his shoulders were narrow when he was fully grown, but they weren't as wide as one would assume. Even in some shots in his Hercules films you can see that he doesn't have a very wide shoulder structure. His width was due to muscle.
(http://www.regpark.net/images/photoalbum/1/rp36.jpg)
(http://www.regpark.net/images/photoalbum/1/rp89.jpg)
(http://www.regpark.net/images/photoalbum/1/rp105.jpg)
But look at the width here...
(http://www.regpark.net/images/photoalbum/1/rp196.jpg)
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Joe, Casey, You guys got me hoppen here. Yep! You are right! It was Karl Norberg! THANKS!!
How the hell do you know these minor details?
Bill Stathis a San Francisco police officer encouraged Karl to do some heavy benching when Karl was 60+ and still might hold some records for a man of his age. You got to remember that this was back in the mid to late 50's when lifting was frowned upon by the general public and football coaches were claiming that lifting made one "musclebound" and less than "athletic".
I believe that Karl trained with Bill at the Golden Gate Y but I am not aware of his best lifts. If I recall right, he only did benches.
Later on Bill owned a very small gym in the Sunset area of San Francisco called Sunset Gym. I bet that the entire place was 600 square feet or less.
Here's a real stumper for you guys ...... Who was Curt Freeman?
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Darn, Stunt, I can't connect the dots on Freeman but his name sounds familiar.
John Grimek had that impromptu liftoff with Norberg, too, and finally beat him
after a genuine challenge. I'm sure Joe Roark has all those exact details.
Norberg of course was Norweigen, I believe. I'm part Norweigen and come from
Scandia stock that had some real brutes among its ranks, including my uncle
Oscar, whom I used to attend wrestling matches with in Minneapolis. When he
was a young man in North Dakota, he attended one of those carnival wrestling
shows, where the hotdog of the mat takes on all comers. My unc, a huge, raw
bone farmer, was pushed up to the mat by his "buddies" and made mincemeat
of the thug within a minute. The promoters signed up Oscar and he toured with
the carnies for awhile, but got sick of the grind and quit. Reputation has it that
he was unfeated. He later became the sheriff of Mayville, N.D., where he retired.
In one of those matches I attended with him (to see the Crusher, who I
worked out next to a few times), some thief stole my uncle's wallet (we were
ringside). He was so cool he just smiled and shook his massive head and said,
"I just had a few bucks in there and an old bill; maybe the guy will pay it."
Oh-oh, off topic, bad. Sorry.
My uncle was certainly not build like a Steve Reeves or Reg Park--more along
the lines of Karl Norberg--but darn was he one powerful, tough (but nice) guy.
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Here's another unrelated one , Jay.
You might recall that Paul Anderson did some professional wrestling way back then. I don't know how many matches he had back then but I was fortunate enough to be at one of them taht was held in San Francisco at the SF Auditorium down there by the City Hall.
He did some sort of strength act that evening along the lines of breaking a large piece of wood over his head or with his bare hands.
I kind of felt let down because it was sort of like someone catching a huge wild bear in the forest and putting him on display doing cheap triciks.
Needless to say, he did win that evening but the promotional gimmick was not so much a wrestling match but a display just to show how strong he really was by throwing and lifting his opponent all over that square circle.
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I show a Kurt Freeman competing twice in 1958:
6th at Mr. Fiesta and 2nd at Mr. Pacific Beach
Same guy?
Anderson had very few wrestling matches (eleven comes to mind but I am not sure). He lacked endurance for lenghty matches. His career in boxing was even worse, as I understand.
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Speaking of wrestlers... I found some Whipper Watson plates the other day at a pawn shop. (They had Dan Lurie weights also.) I deliberately didn't buy them because I was afraid of starting a memorabilia collection. ;)
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Casey, for reals, Whipper Watson plates? You shoulda snatched 'em up, cause I woulda bought them from you, even if they have no collector's value.
Whipper Watson by the way, had an Errol Flynn Mustache, and was the mat's
matinee idol, so to speak.
But, he sure wasn't a Steve Reeves, nor did he even come close to challenging Reg Park (there was also a wrestler named Reg Parks).
It's always a shame in my opinion that certain athletes stray from their chosen sport to lend their hands at another sport, like Anderson. I even heard once that he had a hard time passing the wrestling physical back then before a match. Boxing? That really musta been a joke (like Joe Frazier swimming at
that celebrity athletic competition on tv back in late 70s).
But Paul Anderson was an incredible lifter for his times, had unreal overall
power in many unusual strength feats and was truly deserving of his iconship
in the iron game. Also, of course, a fine, giving, decent human being.
Steve Reeves never strayed from bodybuilding.
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Jay, yeah, there were two 1.5 lb Whipper Watson plates. (I'm always on the lookout for small/odd plates so I can increase the weight on the bar by just a little.) I think I'll drop by Monday and get them. It'd only cost $2 ...but I know where buying old stuff just for the sake of having old stuff can lead. ;) I got the Weider 1.5's instead.
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Joe, that could be the same Curt Freeman because the time is right. It is definitely the same Curt if he was from the Bay Area (Oakland vicinity I believe) and went into "professional" wrestling shortly thereafter.
Curt was one of the original teen age bodybuilders in No Cal during the 50's. A rareity back then.
It was a rare occasion when Norhtern Cal kids went down to Southern Cal for any reason, and I never heard of Curt entering a contest down that way; so it would be interesting to confirm that and see if he actually did and if any photos exist.
How come I never heard of Whipper Watson? That is a totally new name to me for some reason. But I do recall Peppi Gomez from back then, if that carries any weight.
Speaking of Errol Flynn, I met his son once and can pass on an interesting, but bodybuilding-unrelated, story if there is any interest.
Any of you GetBiggers know Jon Jon Park (Reg's son residing in So Cal I believe)?
Thanks for the refresher - I had completely forgotten about Anderson's boxing "career".
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Any of you GetBiggers know Jon Jon Park (Reg's son residing in So Cal I believe)?
I know a guy that's friends with his son.....I was told he resides in LA.
That was a year ago...unless he moved
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Stunt....
any stories on Leo Stern?
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Yes, Knny, regarding Stern, but confusion reigns on this one.
Back in the early 60's I was driving along the PCH through Camp Pendleton and a truck passed me with the name Bill Pearl printed on the side door. I took a close look and noticed that Bill was driving it but he was exceeding the speed limit and I wasn't so I never managed to make an attempt to get him to pull over to the side of the road and say hello. (I'm the type of guy who would do that.)
I mentioned this to someone in the base gym and was informed that Bill was training at Leo Stern's Gym in San Diego so within a week a couple of us drove down to SD and looked for Stern's place in the hopes of meeting Bill.
I told this story before and someone says I was mistaken, but I do recall that Stern's Gym was in downtown San Diego on the second floor of an old building in a less than attractive part of town. I kind of recall a lot of military type bars and pool halls in the area.
Up a flight of narrow stairs and once inside the gym it was dank and dark with old equipment scattered around. Back in those days gyms were not meant to be attractive nor appealing. They weren't "social clubs". They were just places to work out and build up a decent sweat and ladies were never allowed.
Leo happened to be there so I intoruced myself and asked a bout Bill and was informed that he would be in sometime during the evening hours, so I never did meet Bill on that accasion; but later on I had the opportunity to do so and claim friendship
to this very day.
Sorry, not much of a Stern story here and I don't recall ever seeing him at those old time contests down So Cal way. In fact, even Bill seldom made an appearence unless one of his members was competing. - And that is how I originally met Bill. The best man of all times in the world of bodybuilding as far as I am concerned.
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Does anyone have any factual knowledge of Muscle House in Santa Monica during the 40's/50's. My knowledge is limited in that regards although I looked for the actual location on a number of occasions without success during a long tenure in Souther Cal.
I believe it was "managed" by Pudgy Stockton and her husband who offered a lot of fine meals and lodging to the prime bodybuilders of that time.
I do know that Reeves spent some time there. Ditto with Eifferman.
But that's about the extent of my knowledge on Muscle House.
Has anyone ever seen a book written on this subject or have the details?
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Muscle Power mag October 1950 page 47 mentions that Fleuertte 'Joy' Crettaz was the hostess of 'Muscle House by the Sea'.
Pudgy & Les were not connected to it.
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619 trains at Sterns Gym in San Diego. Here is a link to it http://www.sternsgym.com/pages/resources.htm# (http://www.sternsgym.com/pages/resources.htm#)
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Your information is a joke , you've been caught in a handfull of lies already , this is your direct quote ' during the 30s and 40s ziegler who was a doctor ' you're outright wrong he was NOT a doctor in the 1930s as you claim , he didn't even start medschool until the mid 1940s . so I read the sentences as you type them , and I point out your numerous lies .
Dianabol wasn't even created until 1958 I don't care what you say , and when it was no one outside of York knew what it was or what it even did , and Zeigler himself at the time didn't even know how well they worked until much trial and error when working with Bill March slowly on a month to month basis did they finally learn how much they really worked .
The only reason you keep responding is because you're trying to save face , because you know damn well you're wrong and I've proved you wrong . your story is nonsense and contradictory , your claims about Steve Reeves are fanciful lies and a slap in the face of a bodybuilding icon who accomplished more naturally than you could ever hope to on all your cocktails .
gh15 you speak from the heart and i like that. but you ahve to understand you're dealing here with a moron ( ND) . this guy believes every lie they put in the muscle magazines. thats his proofe. he reads it somewhere and directly assumes its correct. so you better dont respond to this kid ND. he is aas dumb and naive as they come, and just look at the other thread of ND, 1000 pages long. ND is a total dumbass.
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Thanks, Joe. Just managed to fall across this topic once again and reread it and I sincerely believe that this is the sort of stuff that is needed to keep Bodybuilding History up to date (so to speak).
It's best to read posts about this crazy way of living from people who were actually there and witnessed history in the making.
And so many of those witnesses are passing away and taking bodybuilding history with them.
Joe Valdez, for example. He should have written a book.
In fact, Joe was writing a book. The working title was "Why Is Everybody in Hollywood Famous Except Me?"
One day he told me part of the storyline and it was phenominal and would have been a best seller.
But Joe did leave many great pictures behind, but in Joe's case I think his words would have been better than a thousand pictures.
Anyway, I hope that we can continue with this topic and get you guys who were actually a part of the bodybuilding in the 40's, 50's, and 60's to spill the beans and let these youngsters know how it really was back then.
OK, thanks!~
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Excellent, Stunt, couldn't have said it better myself.
I worked with Joe Valdez fairly often on photo projects when at Muscle
Digest and he was such the gentleman; very unassuming.
The one thing that I have to say we didn't see eye to eye on, and actually
had a friendly little debate over it, was his constant pushing and public
relations push for Rory L.
But yes, that working book title sounds dynamite. And I'm sure Joe would
have had a success on his plate with that, for sure.
For years now, I've been trying to get famous natural trainer Jack O'Blenness,
to pen his memoirs. Or, even a training, industry book. He's now pushing 80!
And can hardly walk. Boy, does he have some stories about the politics of
bodybuilding.
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steve had an incredible physique..amazing structure and genetics and he looked probably better than 99% of the human population when he was at his natural best.
but that doesnt meen he didnt juice at some point. wich he did.
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Just how well did you know Steve, Slaveboy?
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Yea, c'mon, SB, don't be a slave to your (possible)
drug-induced imagination.
Can't you just leave it be? I guess there's always a
possibility of anything, isn't there? But with Reeves,
I'd give the odds at 99 to 1 that he never touched
them. The guy was such a health fanatic he wouldn't
even take cold medicine.
He showed no signs, ever! He didn't need it for (his)
times. So, what would have been his incentive?
The "Shape" as he was known,certainly didn't need them.
If A then B equals C rings true in basic philosophy, then
reason and logic and deduction proves your statement
to be absurd. And that's being nice SB, showing you some
respect.
Now, please show some respect for the deceased Mr.
Reeves, a deserved (natural) bodybuilding and movie epic
hero and icon, well deserved.
Also, a real-life hero in World War II. The guy was a man
to be admired, in many ways.
________________________ _______________________
Stunt, nice to see your name and posts. If possible, can you
drop by my Dave Draper thread and lend a memory or two,
or some thoughts? Appreciate it. Semper Fi, Marine
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I no jack o a he good buddy
his story are good
www.unbainc.com
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Pardon me?
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I said no jack and his stories are good
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Good writeup.
gh15, at what age do you think Arnold started taking hormones? Rick Wayne said in Wendy Leigh's book that at 17 Arnold had already been using Dianabol for a few years.
True. Those "few years" was only 2 years when Kurt Marnul introduced them to him.
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Who has the complete life story of Perry and Mabel Raider (IronMan Magazine)?
I don't think I've ever seen one written before. I met them a few times at some of the contests over 30+ years ago and they were always a delight to talk with.
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Semper Fi, Stunt. Did you read those previous posts and mine
about dropping by the Dave Draper post and lend your prose,
if you have any.
Regarding the Raders'. If you go to Joe Roark's site...IRONHISTORY
you can read a personalized account of the couple, as seen through
my eyes and my attempt to try and purchase IronMan in 1984, via
a trip down to their headquarters in Alliance, NE...It's under the
bodybuilding section, titled: "My Bid (quest) for IronMan."
There's also many other interesting tidbits on Joe's great site about
the Raders' and IronMan.
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Howdy, Jay!
No, I did not read those earlier posts as I have been on the road a lot lately and just returned from a snowbound lengthened stay in Lake Tahoe, so this is the first time I got to my computer in the past week or so.
I'll do my best to get to it today or later on this week.
Thanks, Jay.
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'woman's waste' ??? ok, a little dissturbing but bygones.
i don't recall reeves being a 'ww2 hero', but i'm now curious as to why he was a hero???
who certified him one? when? where?
anyone?
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I have the biography written by chris leclaire and he mentions that steve's company was involved in the taking of balete pass. I'm not a wwII history buff so i have no idea if that was a significant battle.
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Thanks Montana for those insights, thoughts and Reeves reflections.
He was in fact a WW II hero not because he served in that war, but because
he was decorated by his superiors and the United States Government for
heroism beyond the call of duty. And was thusly awarded a medal (s) for his
actions. He also returned from combat with Malaria (which I contracted, too,
believe me, it's not fun...).
Reeves will undoubtedly be remembered as the best built man, bodybuilder
ever...not by the monster equation and drug culture...but by the rank and file
of iron gamers around the world...and Mr. & Mrs. John Q. Public.
He'll be remembered for many other reasons as well, but suffice to say, for
the purpose of Get Big and the bodybuilding community, being the best built
and perhaps most-gifted genetic, natural man/bodybuilder, will have to do.
All these other arguments and points--for lack of a better term--don't even
rise to the level of a low tide on a cloudy day.
No one here--or anywhere--needs really to defend Mr. Reeves. His life and
persona stands high on its own. But we just try to shed a little light on his
behalf...out of respect and human dignity.
They say jealousy is often the greatest form of flattery. For a lack of getting
respect any other way from some people, I guess we'll just have to
settle for that.
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Here is some info on the Balete Pass battle ...
BATTLE OF BALETE PASS
A careful analysis of the US Armed Forces revealed the weakness of the Japanese defense wherein they can be overcome - in the Balete Pass-Santa Fe-Imugan area. Late in February, a three-pronged attack was launched against Gen. Yamashita's mountain stronghold - on the Villa Verde trail leading to the Municipality of Sta. Fe, Nueva Vizcaya. It was in this area that the fiercest battle occurred.
Balete Pass in the Caraballo Mountain was very strategic for the Japanese as it has honeycombed ridges and caves from which the Japanese could fire without being seen. On April 15, 1945, three US medium tanks managed to climb the mountainous terrain and penetrated the Japanese line of defense. The defenders were quickly subdued, some fled, leaving their weapons. On April 26, Gen. Yamashita arrived on the Balete front after evacuating Baguio, and decided to withdraw his remaining troops from Balete Pass retreating into Central Cordillera on May 5, 1945. On May 9, an American patrol found no Japanese soldiers at the pass. On May 13, the Balete Pass was declared Japanese-free by Gen. Kruger.
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Thanks Montana for those insights, thoughts and Reeves reflections.
He was in fact a WW II hero not because he served in that war, but because
he was decorated by his superiors and the United States Government for
heroism beyond the call of duty. And was thusly awarded a medal (s) for his
actions. He also returned from combat with Malaria (which I contracted, too,
believe me, it's not fun...).
Reeves will undoubtedly be remembered as the best built man, bodybuilder
ever...not by the monster equation and drug culture...but by the rank and file
of iron gamers around the world...and Mr. & Mrs. John Q. Public.
He'll be remembered for many other reasons as well, but suffice to say, for
the purpose of Get Big and the bodybuilding community, being the best built
and perhaps most-gifted genetic, natural man/bodybuilder, will have to do.
All these other arguments and points--for lack of a better term--don't even
rise to the level of a low tide on a cloudy day.
No one here--or anywhere--needs really to defend Mr. Reeves. His life and
persona stands high on its own. But we just try to shed a little light on his
behalf...out of respect and human dignity.
They say jealousy is often the greatest form of flattery. For a lack of getting
respect any other way from some people, I guess we'll just have to
settle for that.
Jay, please don't take what i asked as critical or skeptical of reeves.
i am sincerely interested in this aspect of the man, in the sense that he wasn't just a body, he was a genuine war hero.
thanks for the info you gave (and Montana).
do you know why he was awarded this great honour?
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steve had an incredible physique..amazing structure and genetics and he looked probably better than 99% of the human population when he was at his natural best.
but that doesnt meen he didnt juice at some point. wich he did.
Just how well did you know Steve, Slaveboy?
Didn't you know that "slaveboy" grew up with Reeves? LOL It's been apparent for years that no one seems to know for sure yet mr. pompous here's been able to clear this up in a heartbeat. :-\
Hope this helps. Expect another weak comeback.
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Thanks BEAST and PUMPSTER, great handles, both.
What the heck, slaveboy is probably a slave in his own mind, but he's
entertaining, like some reality show. They make it look real, but it's anything
but.
But...it's real to the slaver and HIS reality...and those who wanna believe.
Actually, the medal honors are beyond me at the moment; I believe he rec'd
two though, above and beyond the normal ones any war participant receives.
I'm one of these old-fashioned hardasses that believes medals should be given
for honors earned; I've known servicemen who would deny their purple heart
because they felt it wasn't earned, compared to the guy who got wounded,
hardcore. And I've known those who would take a purple heart (like John
Kerry Heinz) who received a wittle bump on the shin.
Dan Would-Rather-Not, the long-standing news anchor, claimed he was a
Marine for years. Then, he was exposed in Valor book, saying he was ousted
before he graduated boot camp. He never actually earned the right to even be
called a Marine, let alone be one!!
I bet Stuntmovie (Semper Fi!) would have some thoughts...
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Yea, Jay! I can add a few interesting comments about military awards as I was on the Review Board at FMFPac after my Viet Nam tour and it was our job to review each and every situation in which a Marine enlisted man or officer was recommended for such honors. We would "scrutinize" each and every recommendation carefully (often to the point of argument) and make our recommendation to the CG for approval, denial, upgrade or downgrade.
I am not sure about Steve Reeves' military awards as they were never published to the best of my knowledge but he undoubtably did receive a few "unit awards" for participating in various campaigns in the Pacific. I have never heard anything or read anything about an "individual" award, but that doesn't mean he never received one or more.
It could prove interesting to do some research/letter-writing to determine the exact awards that he did receive during his tour of duty overseas. I don't think that part of Steve's life has ever been researched or described in accurate detail.
To be perfectly honest with ya, I've received my share of awards but once received and placed on my uniform; I'd forget all about them and at present I have no idea at all what each one was all about and the circumstances under which they were received. I do know that I do have a few stars on a few of them ..... meaning that I've earned that metal more than once.
I did present the Purple Heart to a few of my troops on a couple of occasions. The PH was one of those metals that we were able to award immediately and in both cases I attached it to the pillow of the recipients who were completely sedated in a field hospital. Under some circumstances we would make that presentation with full honors providing that the honoree was fully ambulatory, but in my experience most PH's were immedfiately awarded while the individual was under medical care.
I'll do my best to see if I can get some official information on Steve's tour of duty during WWII. Do you happen to have a contact point? I'm completely lost in that respect.
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Stunt, I'm going to check with Joe Roark on that; his arsenal of info is mind-
boggling. I doubt that he would know what WE are seeking, but he would know of a close, informed contact that may be able to shed some light on the issue.
Your reflections on medals is precise and spot perfect. I did know a few Marines in the Marine Barracks where I was stationed following Nam, that wore a few medals that weren't earned...and frankly it turned my guts. Since I was in a leadership billet I reported them--in a tactful way, really--to our CO, a crusty
tank commander who looked remarkably like John Wayne, but more muscular,
standing 6'4" and weighing probably 225, solid Marine Steel. He had long scars
going down his face and on his forehead. He too was appalled. This one joker
wore all the Nam ribbons and had never even gone yet. Made me sick.
The awards thing is another matter. I do believe--as a former newspaper
journalist myself--that reporters make stupid errors, especially regarding the
military or war, and then it goes to the editor who rapes it some more. The
only place I've seen reports about Reeves' medals were in magazines. And
we know how inaccurate they can be. But Reeves was extremely humble about
his record and seldom if ever mentioned it. When I met George Eiferman, Steve's
close friend for many, many years, he told me about Steve's war record, but I
can't recall the exact facts, except he won--was awarded--citations, unit
for sure, and perhaps a few individual ones. I do have some older publications about Reeves and will attempt to look up some facts, if they can be counted
on.
But you are absolutely right my friend about unit and individual citations. And
it's a point few understand, even fewer outside the military. Personally, I have too much profound respect for my brothers-in-arms who were seriously wounded or died, to ever even flirt with wearing anything I didn't totally deserve, because I have my life and limbs and they don't.
Nothing against the other services mind you, but it's the generally accepted fact that medals given to Marines are far more scrutinized and earned than
elsewhere...at least in the "old" Corps. But then, I'm slightly biased; sorry.
Semper Fi.
And regards and respects to all--ALL--Servicemembers. SALUTE!
Steve Reeves may or may not have been a (genuine) war hero, per se, a term misused today in a very devaluing way by the press and uninformed people, but by virtue of his service during war, his participation in it, his contraction of Malaria, his involvement in known campaigns, his hospitalization, etc., etc., he deserves recognition and our adulation. Reeves did not skirt his country and responsibility. He faced it head-on and was among a relative elite few who accomplished great things in Bodybuilding and Hollywood but humbly also served his country, but never complained. So, in the sense of integrity, honor and character, he was indeed a "hero" of a man.
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In an attempt to continue this conversation, I'll add a couple of comments ......
We mentioned Rory earlier and I had the honor of first meeting him many years back when he was still a teen or in his early 20's. A good friend of mine was training at Bill Pearl's in Pasadena and usually drove a bit further east (back then "further east" was mainly a major desert completely deserted) to get a haircut from some kid who trained and worked at a gym way out there.
So we drive along the desert (as I recall it) and arrive at this gym and I get introduced to Rory who was preparing to cut Rob's hair. Rory was a big kid even back then and was planning to be a major name in the bodybuilding world. (I posted a photo of Rory adn Rob during that haircut session many months back if anyone is interested.)
Not much of a story there but that's how I met Rory.
And Joe Valdez .... I first met Joe many years later and one of the first things he asked me was, "What's your birthdate?" He asked everyone that and once he asked he never forgot. I still received birthday greeting up to the year of his death. In fact the last time he wished me a happy birthday, I asked him if I could pick him up at the home he lived in and take him to a Mexican lunch because he always bragged about this one place he really enjoyed. But he was feeling low that day and we never made it and he passed away shortly thereafter.
Joe always like to tell me old time Hollywood star stories because he knew my association to the business. His favorite star/friend was a lady name Joan Crawford. I forget what it was that Joe actually did in the movie studios but he had many close friends who were major stars back then.
Am still doing my best to get Reeves' war records but too much traveling has placed a damper on that assignment, and still trying ot find any photos of Curt Freeman.
OK, maybe this will get this section rolling once again.
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ok. take pen and paper and sit down for history of hormones in bodybuilding 101,,an elective credit course out of gh15 mouth free of charge. it's going to be long,,but it is the ONLY truth when it comes to bodybuilding history and bodybuilding as a whole. there will be no exam at the end ;) i will not take questions at the end. of the course it is a lecture,, so leave the questions for another day and time.
first,,i would like to start with a review of myself:
1) i am a VERY femiliar face very high regarded IFBB professional athlete,,there is not even one person in the bodybuilding industry that havent seen me or heard about my name. i WON not only competed BUT won proffessional shows before.
2) this lecure will include the such and such of bodybuilding early era (eugene, grimek, steve, bill and many more that due to limited space i wont be able to mention here) it will include key factor in that early bodybuilding era.
3) you MUST understand that i TOO like steve,, inorder for you to be able to read this all without getting crazy mad and smoke coming out of your ears. i DO respect reeves for his contribution to the bodybuilding industry and see him as one of all time best.
i write this as an education for you and your peers and anything i say here that tarnish steve reputation is not meant to do so. this is only for you to learn and penetrate deeper into the hormone/stimulant arena of the late 30s and 40s.
4) im aware of the fact that some of you younger guys (im not talking about guys in their 40s) have steve as a big role model and he deserves this spot. he passed away now for years and it is like open a pandora box for nothing you will think. i think it is good education and i think it will help you decide the way you want to persue your bodybuilding life,,(wether naturally with specific low doses of products or chemically enhanced with taking your physiqe into the higher extreme levels of the npc competition)
5) quotes will NOT be provided since i am writing out of my vast knowledge and experience on myself and on "natural athletes" and chemical enhanced athletes,,i dont have time to go look for quotes for you on the internet or bring in old dead gurus out of the grave. if 240 wants or any other computer specialist,,they will be able to provide you with quotes and references.
6) the lecute will be mostly about steve as the base and everything around it (like an octopus and its many arms) due to late debate about this subject. again steve reeves WAS natural in todays terms. 100% NATURAL IN TODAY'S TERMINOLOGY. he only experiemented with hormones/drugs in their rough stages of development.
so lets start.
"and then there came steve reeves...."
the 19th century was full of books and lliterature about hormones and stimulants for their ability to help human kind. many writers wrote about it and fantesize about it exactly like many sci fi writers fantesized about the red planet and the journy to get there.
bodybuilding was nothing those days and rarely you would find someone who was involved in any type of body-building beside eugene and few select others. they did it with passion to live healthier and "extend" their life spans. they were NATURALS in the real essense of the word,,meaning they built their end physiqe on resistance training and food only (ofcourse there were caffine later on but it was natural) they had no sophisticated supplements either. nothing but good ole food. this era ended with eugene sadly. no one ever came to this level and no one will because the world has evolved and science became reality.
the 20th century brought a lot of promises with it. people were more interested in improving their body and life styles for other than health reasons. it became fashionable along the century in addition to a way of living due the progess achieved by medical research of those early 20s century years.
in all along the beggingin of the 20th century researches experiemnted through trial and error with specific compounds such as insulin etc inorder to eventually someday make it marketable. in 1924 or 25 ely lilly a famous company in usa has produced insulin after long time of research. it helped A LOT of people and in my opinion one of the best hormones of the century with aspects to medical use.
ofcourse it changed the powerlifting and bodybuilding (bodybuilding was a tiny little fun those days) tremendesly!
untill the year of 1925 EVERYTHING in powerlifting and body-building (resistance training) was N A T U R A L,,past 1925 it was going a different direction.
i could talk about grimek specifically but the main substance of this lecture is steve reeves because then,,THE HUMAN BODY and bodybuilding was not marketable. pre steve reeves image there was only the will but there was no substance (as in frame and features) to work with commericaly to a satifying level. grimek was a very good bodybuilder that did experiement with the era rough compounds but his physiqe simply didnt cut it. he was indeed natural 100% in comparrison to todays "naturals" and chemical enhanced athletes.
THE STEVE REEVES BODYBUILDING ERA.
steve is the arnold of usa. he is the all american boy,, the ALL AMERICAN FRAT BOY IMAGE HAS BEEN DEVELOPED WITH STEVE REEVES IN MIND in the eyes of the american girls later on in the 60s and 70s. american pretty boy he was!. "and then came steve reeves.." is not a sentence that was said for nothing,,he was an all american pretty boy. he was tall, had wonderful frame, was nice and charming, he had what ever it takes. he was the HEART of the OCTOPUS body building wanted to become in usa. i repea,,t IN USA. no one cared about the rest of the world in those time. usa was ONLY usa when it comes to marketability of a bodybuilder.
inorder to understand steve reeves influence on the sport of bodybuilding better you need to know the support group and major people of the era that were the BRAIN of the octopus. i will introduce them here to a degree. these individuals contributed more than the athlete itself to the success of bodybuilding and power lifting in the usa and ofcourse around the world later on. they are all good people with good intentions and i respect them all. and here they are: mr. berry, mr johnson, mr blair, mr eugene SCHIFF, mr atlas, mr weider joe, mr hoffman, and ofcourse mr ziegler.
there you have it more or less,,the brain of the octopus. all of these individuals were and wanted make money out of bodybuilding and had to find a star in order to make the baby octopus a big and long armed one. the chosen one was steeve reeves. not to forget!! joe weider came to the scene in 1939-40 and soon later mr reeves popped up..he also only competed between 47 and 50 or 46-50 if my memory serves me correctly and thats because he was by then and only then ready (pay attention to the years).
joe weider is and was BODYBUILDING. he is the SOLE reason modern bodybuilding started and the sole reason bodybuilding will continue. he was the CONNECTION in a big chain of chimical reactions that could never happen unless he was there due to his enormous human skills and his ability to talk you into anything he believed in,,inaddition to his vast knowledge of individuals in diff fields who contributed to the industry some of whom are mentioned in this lecture.
the rest of the above mentioned individual were very important to bodybuilding in their own way and time but! the connection to the HORMONE WORLD was established late in the 30s and early in the 40s by mr weider and the most important person in this lecture beside steve,, and it is MR ZIEGLER.
mr ziegler was the brain and knowledge behind steve reeves enourmous advancment as a bodybuilder. joe weider was the cheerleader and the human skill factor that connected the "willing" people with the "right" people thus i name him "THE GLUE". those 2 brought steve reeves from a pretty boy young man to FAME as a pure usa bodybuilder. from there the way to movies was piece of cake since steve was both pretty boy and gained the muscle needed through training and experiemnting to be uniqe for that time in history.
now,,,after clarifying the brain behind reeves and "THE GLUE" (joe weider) we can take a look at how mr ziengler helped steve reeves.
mr ziegler was a doctor. DOCTOR FOR THE ATHLETES that worked with usa teams. not to forget! in those days a doctor was a king or a god depending on how you see it. he was invloved in rehabilitation therapy and had UNLIMITED acess to anything in the research industry. and oh he acsessed it he surely did with the full support from "THE GLUE".
john was very "connected" to the pharmacutical firm CIBA,,in other words he experiemnted with raw products all through the 40s. very high regarded products that were REAL PHARMA MADE. he had open approach to science and was very good with his research. he experiemnted with version of teststerone on himself ofcourse and then he continued with the general rich patient of his and THE ATHLETES he chose to.
the MAIN CHOSEN ATHLETE for john to work with a young guy by the name of STEVE. the chosen one according to "THE GLUE" had to be a novice,,someone that poses potential and not a joe shmoe,,someone BEAUTIFUL that can push the "health industry" into the eyes of the typical american family of the post WW2.
as i mentioned before CIBA and "THE GLUE" were very much in the chase for introducing american athletes especially body-builders to the testosterone hormone and since 1946 they were pushing it exteremly hard so from 1946 the researches on STEVE were a lot more consistant.
to make a story short,,,10 years later that same mr john ziegler introduced the popular dianabol tablet (derivative of testosterone) into the market produced by CIBA and it was a common house hold product of each and every bodybuilder from grimek in his later years through bill that extended it to the use of nilevar (another very good drug) through a consistant and very organized use of bodybuilders like larry. larry was already using it like candies spread along the day. those were the days animals and humans became alike in many ways atleast drug wise.
getting back to the experiements ziegler conducted with young steve there were other products they tried to see the wat the testosterone will react with them. ziegler tried a fat burner called DNP on steve along with testosterone propionate in its rough older version. insulin another favorite hormone i talked about earlier in this lesson was also experiemented with inorder to see the reaction of the 3 compounds with eachother for muscle building and muscle retaining purposes ONLY. DOCTOR ziegler had an open acess to ANY compound he decided he wanted to research and had a complete back up of CIBA pharmacuticals.
so there we have it: THE BRAIN,,THE GLUE,,AND THE GOLDEN BOY. the creation of modern bodybuilding in its better days when every one was innocent. the researches were very interesting and they also helped the golden boy achieving his dreams. it helped every one in many ways . one became a tycoon of money and the leader i OUTMOST respect,,,yes i respect joe a lot,,,one became the inventor of the best most sold hormone in the sports world and he did regret it at the end of his live BUT he will forever be thankful by us bodybuilders,,and ofcourse it helped us the next generations to realize dreams we never thought were possible,,it helped us achieve wonderful careers and see places we would never see otherwize all through the 60s and 70s.
then came the late 70s early 80s and the ABUSE started. and abuse brought us down to a level that to me is very shocking. a level that got to its lower with the murderer as of recently.
to back up this lecture with literature i am attaching here underneath an article about the researches done with testosterone all along the 20th century. the article is not exactly accurate but i approve it more or less.
i hope you enjoyed it and again this isnot inorder to bring someone down BUT inorder to build someone up!
we,,the industry,, are in trouble,,bodybuilding as you know it will end with ron coleman this is the max a human can develop himself. i do not think bodybuilding will ever stop its existance,,,but the physiqe you see now it at its max development.
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*copy and save this lesson,, it is a tresure for any new and upcoming bodybuilder wether you are natural or enhanced. i would charge close to $1500 for a one hour lecture such as this.
article
Testosterone Dreams
Sex, doctors, and the male hormone
Testosterone dreams are the fantasies of hormonal rejuvenation, sexual excitement, and supernormal athletic performances that have been inspired by testosterone drugs since the “male hormone” testosterone was first synthesized in 1935. Shortly after testosterone was produced in a European laboratory, following a competition among three pharmaceutical companies, Time magazine reported that: “German and Swiss chemical laboratories are already prepared … to manufacture from sheep’s wool all the testosterone the world needs to cure homosexuals (and) revitalize old men.” Imaginative interpretations of the power of hormones—a word that was invented in 1905—proliferated for decades even before the eventual synthesis of testosterone. “Attempts have been made to explain even psychic processes such as emotions and states of mind through the increase or diminution or alterations of this or that gland,” as one scientist noted in Endocrinology in 1919. In short, hormonal substances were granted a power to shape personality and produce euphoric states that they have retained to this day.
Over the past seven decades, the growing use of testosterone and its derivatives, the anabolic-androgenic steroids, have demonstrated that many people around the world are interested in using testosterone products for a variety of purposes. These practices run the gamut from legal procedures such as “anti-aging” therapies, which employ these androgenic drugs with synthetic human growth hormone, to the illegal use of anabolic steroids by many bodybuilders, athletes, and some policemen, who view physical strength and aggression as requirements for performing on stage, in the stadium, or on the street. The use of synthetic testosterone as a sexual stimulant is also becoming increasingly common among older people who belong to a generation that increasingly regards sexual fulfillment as a lifelong entitlement.
Sexuality in conservative times
Testosterone became a charismatic drug during the 1940s because it promised sexual stimulation and renewed energy. Physicians described the optimal effect of testosterone drugs as a feeling of “well-being,” a term that has been used many times since the 1940s to characterize their positive effect on mood. In the early 1940s testosterone was hailed in pharmaceutical advertising as a mood-altering drug whose primary purpose was the sexual restoration and reenergizing of aging males. It appeared at that time that an inexpensive supply, widespread demand, and favorable medical opinion would soon produce a major market for testosterone products.
The first public advocate of testosterone therapy for aging men was the popular science journalist Paul de Kruif, whose manifesto The Male Hormone was published with some fanfare in 1945. Excerpted in Reader’s Digest and promoted by a full-page review in Newsweek (“Hormones for He-Men”), The Male Hormone was in some respects a prophetic book. The potential market for a rejuvenating male hormone seemed to be enormous: “How many millions of American males, not the men they used to be, would flock to the physicians and the druggist, a bit shame-faced and surreptitious, maybe, but hopeful, murmuring: ‘Doc, how about some of this new male hormone?’”
Testosterone did not become a mass market drug in the 1940s due to the sexual conservatism of most American physicians and the society they served. The belief that testosterone was a stimulating drug made it a potential threat to sexual morality as well as a promising therapy. Sensational coverage had given the male hormone a quasi-pornographic image that its female counterpart estrogen had never acquired. Commenting on testosterone’s unsavory reputation in 1946, Science Digest reported that “the uninformed continue to believe that the sole use of this innocent chemical is to turn sexual weaklings into wolves, and octogenarians into sexual athletes.”
The 1940s also saw the use of testosterone therapy as an experimental “cure” for homosexuality. The medical view of homosexuality as a type of endocrine deficiency made the use of testosterone propionate to reverse homosexual orientation virtually predictable. As one physician in 1940 put it: “If homosexuality is merely the result of an endocrine disturbance, the prospect for its cure must be excellent today.”
The idea that the bodies of homosexuals contained less male hormone and more female hormone than those of heterosexuals first appeared in 1935. By 1940 a number of investigators were confident enough in their ability to assay hormone levels to claim that homosexuality was rooted in abnormal sex hormone ratios rather than the psychological complexes hypothesized by Freud and others. “It seems,” one research team wrote, “that the constitutional homosexual has a different sex hormone chemistry than the normal male.” The fallacy of this therapeutic rationale became evident soon enough. Testosterone propionate combined with chorionic gonadotropin was not curing homosexuals, even in studies that encouraged belief in the drug and did not compare its effects with those of a placebo. In fact, it was becoming increasingly clear that androgens did not reverse but actually intensified homosexual libido, so that “sometimes instead of helping one gets a worsening of the condition.”
Prescription for women?
Testosterone drugs were also the favored pharmacological technique of the 1940s for treating sexual “frigidity” in women. Testosterone propionate ointment could be applied to the vulva or clitoris to increase genital sensitivity. Testosterone could be injected or pellets implanted under the skin to intensify libido. By 1943 testosterone propionate was reported to be in widespread use to treat women with sexual and other endocrine disorders. In 1947 a team of authors noted that over the previous decade “the effect of androgens in increasing libido in women has been an almost universal observation.” It appeared that androgens influenced libido in three ways, “causing a) a heightened susceptibility to psychic stimulations; b) increased sensitivity of the external genitalia, particularly of the clitoris and c) greater intensity of sexual gratification.” Perhaps the most interesting point about these scientifically primitive observations is that they have been repeatedly confirmed by later investigators."......
....The idea that women are the principal cause of sexual problems in marriage has been a staple of medical folklore for more than a century. Men were assumed to have a stronger sexual impulse than women. Over the many years the term was in circulation, the medical literature always assigned sexual “frigidity” exclusively to women. The disorder once known as male “impotence,” and that was eventually rechristened “erectile dysfunction,” never carried the same stigma of emotional deficiency and personal inadequacy. Impotence was an unfortunate physiological problem, while “frigidity” signaled a defective personality and a failure to live up to a wife’s marital obligations. Some (male) doctors knew perfectly well that a great deal of the “frigidity” displayed by wives was the direct result of sexually ignorant or indifferent husbands. A 1931 JAMA editorial, for example, argues that most female “frigidity” is caused by the emotional disinterest of husbands who had “obtained their premarital knowledge of the sexual act from intercourse with prostitutes” whose sexual gratification was of no interest to the paying customer.
The medical literature offered various cures for female “frigidity.” During the 1930s and 1940s these included the use of electricity to sensitize the vaginal mucous membrane: “The treatment consists in inserting a large vaginal electrode into the vagina, connecting it with the negative pole, while the positive pole is connected with a wet abdominal electrode, the galvanic current is allowed to pass for about ten minutes. Without disturbing the electrodes, we now give the sinusoidal-galvanic current for another ten minutes. No pain must be caused by the treatment.” Other commentators, as noted, recommended sexual education for the many husbands who appeared to know nothing about female sexual anatomy or psychology. It was during the 1930s that proposals to use hormonal substances to boost female sex drive began to appear with increasing frequency in the medical literature.
By the end of that decade synthetic testosterone propionate and methyltestosterone had become, in effect, experimental drugs that were being used for various (and, in retrospect, usually mistaken) clinical purposes. Megadoses sometimes amounting to thousands of milligrams that were intended to neutralize estrogen-driven breast cancers were one application. One of the unofficial dogmas of this early period was that the male hormone would sexually stimulate men and that estrogens would have a similar effect on women. Androgens were sometimes applied to the penis, while estrogens were applied to the clitoris. The discovery that testosterone sexually stimulated females thus came as a shock to the physicians who observed this effect. A 1941 paper reports the author’s reaction to this phenomenon in both young and old women: “My attention was first drawn to it by several elderly women who found the resurgence of libido distressing. The phenomenon is equally as striking among young women. A number of married women, who had considered themselves frigid, stated that after receiving the testosterone propionate injections they experienced a marked increase in coital gratification, culminating in an orgasm.”
B.S..........prove reeves was on Steroids with ACTUAL WRITTEN EVIDENCE, VERBAL, RECORDINGS, TAPE etc etc, in your opinion EVERYONE is on "Steroids".... absolutely bizarre anyone with a good Physique with Lowish BF is on this....and "That".... this mite shock you there are MANY people with Great Physiques on Nothing as in Hormones, that you can bank on.
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By the late 1940s testosterone was being touted as an anti-aging wonder drug (e.g., see Paul de Kruif's The Male Hormone).[77] Decline of testosterone production with age has led to interest in androgen replacement therapy.[78]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone#Medical_uses
he group of Ernst Laqueur at the University of Amsterdam purified testosterone from bovine testicles in a similar manner in 1934, but isolation of the hormone from animal tissues in amounts permitting serious study in humans was not feasible until three European pharmaceutical giants—Schering (Berlin, Germany), Organon (Oss, Netherlands) and Ciba (Basel, Switzerland)—began full-scale steroid research and development programs in the 1930s.
The Organon group in the Netherlands were the first to isolate the hormone, identified in a May 1935 paper "On Crystalline Male Hormone from Testicles (Testosterone)".[130] They named the hormone testosterone, from the stems of testicle and sterol, and the suffix of ketone. The structure was worked out by Schering’s Adolf Butenandt.[131][132]
The chemical synthesis of testosterone from cholesterol was achieved in August that year by Butenandt and Hanisch.[133] Only a week later, the Ciba group in Zurich, Leopold Ruzicka (1887–1976) and A. Wettstein, published their synthesis of testosterone.[134] These independent partial syntheses of testosterone from a cholesterol base earned both Butenandt and Ruzicka the joint 1939 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.[132][135] Testosterone was identified as 17β-hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one (C19H28O2), a solid polycyclic alcohol with a hydroxyl group at the 17th carbon atom. This also made it obvious that additional modifications on the synthesized testosterone could be made, i.e., esterification and alkylation.
The partial synthesis in the 1930s of abundant, potent testosterone esters permitted the characterization of the hormone’s effects, so that Kochakian and Murlin (1936) were able to show that testosterone raised nitrogen retention (a mechanism central to anabolism) in the dog, after which Allan Kenyon’s group[136] was able to demonstrate both anabolic and androgenic effects of testosterone propionate in eunuchoidal men, boys, and women. The period of the early 1930s to the 1950s has been called "The Golden Age of Steroid Chemistry",[137] and work during this period progressed quickly. Research in this golden age proved that this newly synthesized compound—testosterone—or rather family of compounds (for many derivatives were developed from 1940 to 1960), was a potent multiplier of muscle, strength, and well-being.[77]
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Good read...
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A simple mention of Steve brings me in. Steve was my first mentor. I joined Bert Goodrich Gym on Hollywood Blvd. in 1954. I lied about my age to join. Said I was 16. Steve was training there in-between gigs. Bert asked him to write me a program and keep his eye on me. I was upclose and hands on with the man. He guided me for a few months. In those days when it was hot (no AC) so you trained shirt off and with a towel. IMO Steve was natural based on my years later use of AAS myself and training others to National championships. I never saw Dbol in the gym until the mid-late 50s.
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many here would have enjoyed steve's company .. no doubt! ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Proof Steve was the man: http://dai.ly/xz16k5
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Another rare one:
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I always wondered if Steves voice wasn't very good which is why they dubbed over his voice in the movies. From this clip, he seems to have a very deep voice that would have been good for the movies. Maybe his acting was just that bad.
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thanks for bringing back this thread it's been a while. the steve reeves appearance on the burns and allen show is also on youtube and steve's real voice can be heard.
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Reeves would have made a great Tarzan.
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Hi guys, I am new to Getbig and the forums and this one in particular. I have read this thread all through and the many interesting facts, theories and assumptions that have been posted.The posts that hold the most credibility for me are those based on the fact's that the person posting either knew the people concerned, in this case Steve Reeves and Reg Park personally or trained with them over a period of time. Thus giving them far greater insight to what went on.
Though I never had the honour and pleasure of meeting with or training with Steve Reeves, I believe he was clean and one of the best representatives of what bodybuilding should be, not what it has become. But I have known, worked for and trained with Reg Park. From my first meeting with him in 1965 through to the last time I saw him in the 1990's he was, in my opinion clean. He was always incredibly strong and training with him at my best friend Len Sells gym in London was hard work. Though Len, who won the NABBA amateur and professional Universe was actually stronger pound for pound in some lifts, as Len, who only weighed about 182 lbs max, was dumbbell bench pressing 220lb dumbells and he never took a steroid in his life. Later in the 60's I trained with Reg in his gym in Johannesburg when I worked for him. Never was there any mention or hint of steroid use by him, nor did any one else who trained there even hint that Reg was anything but clean. He, as did Len Sell always said, we are limited by our genetic make up, but not by our mental strength.
In life some people just get all the breaks genetic wise and we, normal humans, just have to live with it. Or go along another path altogether, thats their choice. All I know is what I have seen and experienced over the years of knowing Reg Park and I am grateful for the time spent with him.
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Hi guys, I am new to Getbig and the forums and this one in particular. I have read this thread all through and the many interesting facts, theories and assumptions that have been posted.The posts that hold the most credibility for me are those based on the fact's that the person posting either knew the people concerned, in this case Steve Reeves and Reg Park personally or trained with them over a period of time. Thus giving them far greater insight to what went on.
Though I never had the honour and pleasure of meeting with or training with Steve Reeves, I believe he was clean and one of the best representatives of what bodybuilding should be, not what it has become. But I have known, worked for and trained with Reg Park. From my first meeting with him in 1965 through to the last time I saw him in the 1990's he was, in my opinion clean. He was always incredibly strong and training with him at my best friend Len Sells gym in London was hard work. Though Len, who won the NABBA amateur and professional Universe was actually stronger pound for pound in some lifts, as Len, who only weighed about 182 lbs max, was dumbbell bench pressing 220lb dumbells and he never took a steroid in his life. Later in the 60's I trained with Reg in his gym in Johannesburg when I worked for him. Never was there any mention or hint of steroid use by him, nor did any one else who trained there even hint that Reg was anything but clean. He, as did Len Sell always said, we are limited by our genetic make up, but not by our mental strength.
In life some people just get all the breaks genetic wise and we, normal humans, just have to live with it. Or go along another path altogether, thats their choice. All I know is what I have seen and experienced over the years of knowing Reg Park and I am grateful for the time spent with him.
Welcome..and, interesting recollection-thanks for sharing!
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Hi guys, I am new to Getbig and the forums and this one in particular. I have read this thread all through and the many interesting facts, theories and assumptions that have been posted.The posts that hold the most credibility for me are those based on the fact's that the person posting either knew the people concerned, in this case Steve Reeves and Reg Park personally or trained with them over a period of time. Thus giving them far greater insight to what went on.
Though I never had the honour and pleasure of meeting with or training with Steve Reeves, I believe he was clean and one of the best representatives of what bodybuilding should be, not what it has become. But I have known, worked for and trained with Reg Park. From my first meeting with him in 1965 through to the last time I saw him in the 1990's he was, in my opinion clean. He was always incredibly strong and training with him at my best friend Len Sells gym in London was hard work. Though Len, who won the NABBA amateur and professional Universe was actually stronger pound for pound in some lifts, as Len, who only weighed about 182 lbs max, was dumbbell bench pressing 220lb dumbells and he never took a steroid in his life. Later in the 60's I trained with Reg in his gym in Johannesburg when I worked for him. Never was there any mention or hint of steroid use by him, nor did any one else who trained there even hint that Reg was anything but clean. He, as did Len Sell always said, we are limited by our genetic make up, but not by our mental strength.
In life some people just get all the breaks genetic wise and we, normal humans, just have to live with it. Or go along another path altogether, thats their choice. All I know is what I have seen and experienced over the years of knowing Reg Park and I am grateful for the time spent with him.
Thanks for sharing that! Did you meet anyone else and train with them? Also, did Reg ever mention Arnold?
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I trained with Arnold a few times over the years, first when Reg Park brought out Arnold to guest tour in South Africa in 1967. I would work in with them sometimes in our earl morning training sessions, though my regular training partner was Mr South Africa, Eddie Silva. Eddie also won his height class in the NABBA Universe. Eddie was a great guy, very humble about his achievements, honest and straightforward. He was short like me and very strong and in some exercises we could beat the giants in the gym, Reg included.
I remember doing set upon set of calf raises on the seated and standing machines Reg had specially made, they were just by the fire escape door that led up to the back stairs to the other floors of Reg's gym. Sometimes Reg would get guys to sit on top of the seated calf machine when you could get no more 45lb plates on the weight holder.
What I was curious about was the two small identical scars at the back of Arnold's calves, they were in exactly the same place on each calf. A year prior to this I had seen Arnold very close up at the judging of the NABBA Universe the first time he had visited the UK. In fact I was about to go down the stairs to the changing rooms after being judged in the Junior Mr Britain final, as Arnold was coming up the stairs to begin the judging process of his Amateur Mr Universe contest.Those days the Junior Mr Britain and the Universe were judged on the same day, this really encouraged us young lads, seeing all the stars close up.
We could not believe the size of Arnold, nearly all the lads said he would win the amateurs, but I had seen Chester Yorton and he was finished, complete, tanned, cut and he had everything, including the most amazing calves, which at that time Arnold did not have. I just knew Yorton would win and he did.
But now just a year later Arnold had calves, not, in my estimation, normal looking calves. To me his calves always looked knotty and to high up on his lower leg. I guess we all have our own ideas about how people look and our own personal preferences colour our judgement.
My family, Mum, Dad, brother and sister had flown out to South Africa that year for a holiday and as I was waiting with them at the airport for their flight home, Arnold flew in, but their was no one to meet him, so I sat him down with my family to chat while I fixed up for him to be taken to Reg's home. My mum thought he was "such a nice boy," and for years afterwards she would ask me how "that nice boy, Arnold, was doing?"
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I trained with Arnold a few times over the years, first when Reg Park brought out Arnold to guest tour in South Africa in 1967. I would work in with them sometimes in our earl morning training sessions, though my regular training partner was Mr South Africa, Eddie Silva. Eddie also won his height class in the NABBA Universe. Eddie was a great guy, very humble about his achievements, honest and straightforward. He was short like me and very strong and in some exercises we could beat the giants in the gym, Reg included.
I remember doing set upon set of calf raises on the seated and standing machines Reg had specially made, they were just by the fire escape door that led up to the back stairs to the other floors of Reg's gym. Sometimes Reg would get guys to sit on top of the seated calf machine when you could get no more 45lb plates on the weight holder.
What I was curious about was the two small identical scars at the back of Arnold's calves, they were in exactly the same place on each calf. A year prior to this I had seen Arnold very close up at the judging of the NABBA Universe the first time he had visited the UK. In fact I was about to go down the stairs to the changing rooms after being judged in the Junior Mr Britain final, as Arnold was coming up the stairs to begin the judging process of his Amateur Mr Universe contest.Those days the Junior Mr Britain and the Universe were judged on the same day, this really encouraged us young lads, seeing all the stars close up.
We could not believe the size of Arnold, nearly all the lads said he would win the amateurs, but I had seen Chester Yorton and he was finished, complete, tanned, cut and he had everything, including the most amazing calves, which at that time Arnold did not have. I just knew Yorton would win and he did.
But now just a year later Arnold had calves, not, in my estimation, normal looking calves. To me his calves always looked knotty and to high up on his lower leg. I guess we all have our own ideas about how people look and our own personal preferences colour our judgement.
My family, Mum, Dad, brother and sister had flown out to South Africa that year for a holiday and as I was waiting with them at the airport for their flight home, Arnold flew in, but their was no one to meet him, so I sat him down with my family to chat while I fixed up for him to be taken to Reg's home. My mum thought he was "such a nice boy," and for years afterwards she would ask me how "that nice boy, Arnold, was doing?"
There are really awesome stories!!! So were you thinking Calf Implants perhaps? Also, do you think Chester Yorton was Natural. He claimed it his entire career. He still lifts and looks great. Keep the stories coming!
(http://tnation.t-nation.com/forum_images/2/f/2f4ec-return_of_chet_yorton_pic3.jpg)
(http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/chet-yorton-04.jpg)
(http://extrastrong.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/chet-yorton-biceps.jpg)
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;D
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I have always believed that Chet Yorton was natural. When you talk to him and see his passion about the Iron Game, you believe. I was sat just in front of his wife during the judging of the NABBA 1975 Universe where Chet won the Professional tall class. She was an extremely glamorous lady and friendly, she asked me how I thought Chet would do, I had to be honest and say that I thought Boyer Coe would beat him for the overall pro title. But, I said Chet looks fantastic for a guy who is natural. She said then how much he was against steroids and how he had never used them.
Later Chet came and sat with his wife and we talked a bit, I found him a very dignified man, totally believing in a drug free sport, after all he did not have to start the modern "Natural body movement", as he had already won many top competitions including the Amateur NABBA Universe, so he had nothing to gain or prove, except his love of a drug free sport.