VET and or ~flower~ URGENT

[knny187]

Thats a very, very important question to ask.  A tendon problem, even if its tendon synovia, is different from a joint problem.  Causes and effects are different, although they are generally grouped together, they aren't the same. 

Thats my point.

Even has humans....we tend to call those two things the same thing

[Hedgehog]

Question for Vet: Would you say that using Drontal in this case would be veterinary standard protocol?

And what chances of recovery would you give the dog if given Diatomaceous earth, if the dog had a serious worm problem?

[~flower~]

Ok, I didn't know the full story with him.....   I'll agree that was over vaccination.  The thing is that distemper vaccinations have NOT been associated with tendon specific injuries, they are associated with a modified live viral induced POLYarthropothy.  This means that after getting a modified live vaccination the dogs will develop symptoms in multiple joints as a result of autoimmune disease---essentially the body attacking the cartilage/synovia of the joint.   Its not a tendon specific injury--thats where my confusion comes from with your dog.   I've never heard of a case of VIPA affecting just one joint.  As a matter of fact part of the diagnostic criteria is that MULTIPLE joints have to be showing clinical signs---and its specific to the joints, not the tendons.  Tendons are a different anatomical structure. 

The other thing which absolutely has to be considered is the breed of the dog.  This is a great dane correct?  that alone will significantly increase risk of tendon/joint disease if he got vaccinations or not. 

I guess what I'm trying to say/ask you is if it is just one joint that is affected, blaming it totally on vaccinations is a long shot.  Its much more likely that you are dealing with a breed related conformational issue than something brought on by vaccinations.   Now I will agree with you that he was over vaccinated and if he had signs of a polyarthropothy prior to developing his current problem (I don't know the full story yet, so I may not know that fact) then it supports your idea more. 

It was the long digital extensor I believe.  I have paperwork around here somewhere, but offhand I don't know where and I am not digging for it now.  I also have a link or something somewhere on how distemper vaccine was isolated from joints in dogs.  But you know that, you mentioned PA, so isn't that contradicting yourself?    There has also been some talk of the distemper vaccine affecting collagen. 

I think he could have had a predisposition (his breed, his lineage contributing) to joint/tendon/ligament problems, sure.  But I do believe 100% that being overvaccinated facilitated it.   He had pano too in the opposite side front leg also, which did not cause him any problems and was found because we xrayed all his legs prior to surgery and it showed on an x-ray.   Considering his age, that he was vaccinated so many times in a short period, that the distemper vaccine may affect collagen, I don't think it is a stretch to think that his vaccination history played a BIG role in his tendon tearing. 

 How bout you prove that vaccines are harmless.  You can't do that. So how come you dispute anything possibly being attributed to vaccines, yet know they CAN do harm?
 
  Doesn't make any sense to me. 

[~flower~]

The thing is there is a dog with a confirmed positive fecal exam who is at risk for spreading the parasites.  Deworming with the correct dose of the drug is not inappropriate at all....... and its very, very different from giving a dog a dewormer because it "ain't got one in a few years".   

 If you read you would notice I said go ahead and do it, use the Drontal. 

 I said if he comes up positive again that I would treat the yard with DE and consider putting him on DE. 

[Vet]

Question for Vet: Would you say that using Drontal in this case would be veterinary standard protocol?

And what chances of recovery would you give the dog if given Diatomaceous earth, if the dog had a serious worm problem?

Treatment with an appropriate anthelmetic is standard protocol....  This could be Drontal Plus or it could be Fenbendazole.  There are other drugs too, but those are probably the most commonly used. 


I would give a dog less than 5% chance for recovery if given diatomaceous earth as the sole dewormer if it had a serious toxocara and ancyclostoma infestation.  Now, that is an arbitrary made up number, but I'm basing it on other cases i've seen and probable outcome based on my understanding of how Diatomaceous earth works.  I'd also give the dog a 15% or more of a chance of developing serious GI side effects including vomiting, diarrhea, or worse if given orally and a 20% chance of showing signs of interdigital and ventral (between the toes and belly)skin irritation if diatmoaceous earth was used to treat the yard and the dogs were allowed outside prior to an intense rain.   

[~flower~]

Bottom line, inject or orally dose them with any poison or chemical as the standard treatment and preventative for anything and everything.   

 Vaccinate for anything and everything too. Ignore duration of immunity studies and Principles of Immunity.

 Bodies are not made to deal with anything, we must protect them.  So we make more and more stuff to do that. 
 

  Everything is harmless and if it ain't, prove it!!



 

[Vet]

It was the long digital extensor I believe.  I have paperwork around here somewhere, but offhand I don't know where and I am not digging for it now.  I also have a link or something somewhere on how distemper vaccine was isolated from joints in dogs.  But you know that, you mentioned PA, so isn't that contradicting yourself?    There has also been some talk of the distemper vaccine affecting collagen. 

I think he could have had a predisposition (his breed, his lineage contributing) to joint/tendon/ligament problems, sure.  But I do believe 100% that being overvaccinated facilitated it.   He had pano too in the opposite side front leg also, which did not cause him any problems and was found because we xrayed all his legs prior to surgery and it showed on an x-ray.   Considering his age, that he was vaccinated so many times in a short period, that the distemper vaccine may affect collagen, I don't think it is a stretch to think that his vaccination history played a BIG role in his tendon tearing. 

No, I'm not contradicting myself.  There is a tremendous difference between a "joint" and a "tendon" problem.  distemper vaccinations have been linked to polyarthropathy---a joint specific problem.  

You do know that there is a possible correlation between panosteitis and digital extensor problems don't you?   The digital extensor tendons, specifically the long digital extensor is intimately involved with the periosteum (the connective tissue lining of the bone itself).  With panosteitis, it occurs in large breeds (Great Danes, laboradors, German Shepards, basset hounds--basically all large breeds over 60 lbs in adult weight) with males having a much higher prevelance --from 70 to 80%.  

In this disease the effected area shows increases osteoblastic and fibroblastic activity affecting the endosteum, periosteum, and marrow. There is fibrosis and connective tissue replacement of normal medullary cavity.  There can also be the development of a line of new bone growth along the periosteum, thus affecting associated soft tissue structures--including the digitial extensor tendons.  Radiographically a fine smooth layer of periosteal new bone may develop, but it blends in and makes the cortex appear thicker.  The kicker with this disease is that there is no relationship between the severity of radiographic changes and the clinical lameness and that it is a multi-leg problem.  It never occurs on just one leg.  Comparison radiographs of the contralateral limbs can be helpful but the bottom line is the disease is a multi-leg problem.  



 

How bout you prove that vaccines are harmless.  You can't do that. So how come you dispute anything possibly being attributed to vaccines, yet know they CAN do harm?
 
  Doesn't make any sense to me.  [/color]

Flower, quit being stupid.  I'm asking you about your dog because I don't know what his full story is.  I'm not trying to prove or disprove anysort of an agenda.  I'm also giving you my thoughts on his medical condition.   You can take it or leave it, I really don't care.  Dont' turn this into some stupid pissing contest because I'm daring to challenge your stubborn little mind about vaccinations.   You have very, very little real proof that vaccinations have done anything to your dog.   You are blaming distemper vaccinations based on conjecture and opinion (tendon vs joint and they MIGHT affect collagen) and ignoring the very real possibility that something else could have caused your dogs problems.  

Was he overvaccinated---yes I agree with you that he was.  There is no disputing this.  

Did it do any harm?  I don't think you have enough proof of that as a fact, especially considering breed and what you've presented of his history.   From what I've gotten from you you have none of the associated problems with distemper vaccinations and dogs.  Blaming the vaccination may not be the correct thing to blame.  

[Vet]

Bottom line, inject or orally dose them with any poison or chemical as the standard treatment and preventative for anything and everything.   

 Vaccinate for anything and everything too. Ignore duration of immunity studies and Principles of Immunity.

 Bodies are not made to deal with anything, we must protect them.  So we make more and more stuff to do that. 
 

  Everything is harmless and if it ain't, prove it!!



 

Good grief, are you hormonal today or what? 

[~flower~]

He never had pano in the leg that the tendon tore. Only the one leg. We xrayed all of his legs. It was in one leg and not that severe from the xray.  I was surprised it was only in one leg, and never any of the others.  I guess his case of pano was not informed of the rules.   

  You did prove my point that the veterinary (and medical) community is usually NEVER willing to attribute any problems to vaccinations and preventatives too for that matter.

  It's pretty easy to say "not the associated problems" when no problems are ever associated!!   Unless a problem happens shortly (like right then and there) after the vaccination or chemical or poison is given, it is NEVER related.   

 Just like the series of vaccinations given to young animals is for boostering and not so that the majority of animals will have the vaccination be affective because the waning of maternal antibodies is different in every one. 

 Or just like distemper and parvo vaccination don't shed.  Meaning an animal could not be vaccinated by a shed virus. 

 And Heartguard is not affective every 45 days, only if given every 30.

 I made all that up.  


  Vet has the floor from now on.  






 

[Vet]

He never had pano in the leg that the tendon tore. Only the one leg. We xrayed all of his legs. It was in one leg and not that severe from the xray.  I was surprised it was only in one leg, and never any of the others.  I guess his case of pano was not informed of the rules.   

Wrong, it read all of the rules and followed them pretty closely.  Reread what I posted.

[~flower~]

His ortho vet said there was Pano only in the one leg, which we thought was odd.  Since he saw the xrays, and he operated on his knee, and he is an ortho specialist, I will choose to believe him because he had all the facts. 

[Princess L]

*sigh*

Looks like I may have to go the Heartgard route.  I thought I would be able to get away with not doing it.  Shame on me, he hasn't been on it since....about April.  I put him back on yesterday (before the fecal result)  and intend to run it at least til November ~ December and then seasonally.... then again  maybe that's not a good idea.  I've got those damn welfare cats running around (and Scout finds their poop sometimes), not to mention other wild critters.  There's no getting around it I guess since we live on several acres.  Scout also attends doggy daycare once a week.

Thanks everyone for the get well wishes.
   

Oops, my mistake ~ Interceptor

[Vet]

His ortho vet said there was Pano only in the one leg, which we thought was odd.  Since he saw the xrays, and he operated on his knee, and he is an ortho specialist, I will choose to believe him because he had all the facts. 

So was it his knee or his digital extensor tendon or both?   And did the "ortho specialist" say it all occured because he was over vaccinated? 

[~flower~]

WoW!!  Pano has a suspected cause being the distemper vaccine or virus!!!  Who would of thought there could be any connection?          I wonder if Emmett getting 3 combo vacs which included distemper in a 3 week period could of had anything to do with his Pano and tendon tear?   NAW!  That is SOOOO far fetched.   Oh well, had to look into the pano thing anyways since it was mentioned as a possible cause of his tear.  But then that could link it back to the vaccines, and they are harmless.   


  Panosteits is a disease in which there is inflammatory and degenerative changes of the medullary (the medulla= the middle compartment of long (e.g. leg) bones.
  The medulla of bones is a soft tissue space surrounded by hard (cortical) bone; it contains marrow (fat and blood cell precurosrs).
   Causes
           Viral: causes are presently unclear but there is considerable evidence that there is an underlying viral etiology. Some speculate that Canine Distemper infection or vaccination may each play an important role.



Another interesting twist to the viral theory is that panosteitis was first identified as a problem at the same time that modified live distemper vaccines became widely available on the market. Since wild distemper virus can be isolated from bone tissue, some researchers feel that there might be a link between distemper virus vaccine and panosteitis, however, more research in this area will need to be done before any serious speculations can be made.