If God ordered you to kill a child..........

[MCWAY]

It was an ill considered point.

With regards to the other comment, I have been busy.

I answered questions over and over but magic books are hurled again and again and when I post things like former fundy, Bart Ehrman and his scholarship showing how the bible is riddled with copyist errors, mistakes and interpolations, that stuff IS ignored. If a person wants to believe in magic books without evidence, then there is no evidence you can present to convince him otherwise. Same goes for the creationist folk and evolution.

Try that again. The stuff isn't ignored; it is refuted, a BIG difference. In fact, when I first addressed your rather laborious cut-and-paste jobs, I went through, point by point, and addressed why such statements were inaccurate. Furthermore, I don't see how referring to Ehrman as a "former fundie" helps your case. I can just as easily cite Biblical scholars and believers, who were once atheists. Would that mean that you ignored what they had to say on certain matters?

To top it all off, your claim about wanting to "believe in magic books without evidence" is even more off the mark. I've mentioned it before now, and so has Loco. We cited numerous times where skeptics have that Biblical accounts were false, only to have their statements shattered, when historical and archaeological evidence points to the Bible's accuracy.

Among such was what he and I posted, refuting your first claim that there was no extra-Biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. When that claim of your got sunk, you then reverted to asserting that Josephus was the only one and that it was fradulent. That was picked apart as well. That leads to some of the questions that Loco and I asked you.

1) Loco's question to you was to produce a reference to a copy of the Josephus' Testimonium (in either Greek or Arabic, the two known languages in which it was written) that DOES NOT HAVE any reference to Jesus Christ.

2) My question to you was to produce a reference, showing that the Talmud was originally written in 200 A.D. (as you cited that it was written too late to be of any value, for being an extra-Biblical reference to Jesus, which you said didn't exist in the first place) and that the statement in it, regarding Jesus' death were inaccurate, as you also claimed.

[Deicide]

Try that again. The stuff isn't ignored; it is refuted, a BIG difference. In fact, when I first addressed your rather laborious cut-and-paste jobs, I went through, point by point, and addressed why such statements were inaccurate. Furthermore, I don't see how referring to Ehrman as a "former fundie" helps your case. I can just as easily cite Biblical scholars and believers, who were once atheists. Would that mean that you ignored what they had to say on certain matters?

To top it all off, your claim about wanting to "believe in magic books without evidence" is even more off the mark. I've mentioned it before now, and so has Loco. We cited numerous times where skeptics have that Biblical accounts were false, only to have their statements shattered, when historical and archaeological evidence points to the Bible's accuracy.

Among such was what he and I posted, refuting your first claim that there was no extra-Biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. When that claim of your got sunk, you then reverted to asserting that Josephus was the only one and that it was fradulent. That was picked apart as well. That leads to some of the questions that Loco and I asked you.

1) Loco's question to you was to produce a reference to a copy of the Josephus' Testimonium (in either Greek or Arabic, the two known languages in which it was written) that DOES NOT HAVE any reference to Jesus Christ.

2) My question to you was to produce a reference, showing that the Talmud was originally written in 200 A.D. (as you cited that it was written too late to be of any value, for being an extra-Biblical reference to Jesus, which you said didn't exist in the first place) and that the statement in it, regarding Jesus' death were inaccurate, as you also claimed.

You refuted nothing. You merely wailed up and down that Josephus is not an interpolation and left it at that and your Talmud crap is nonsense. I never proposed a specific date of composition for it, but hey I have a better offer for you. As get big's staunchest and best apologist for Christianity and its myths I invite to present your views to a different audience. At Koko Cheers all are welcome!

Especially at the sceptic tank!

http://captporridge.com/bb/index.php?board=14.0

[MCWAY]

You refuted nothing. You merely wailed up and down that Josephus is not an interpolation and left it at that and your Talmud crap is nonsense. I never proposed a specific date of composition for it, but hey I have a better offer for you. As get big's staunchest and best apologist for Christianity and its myths I invite to present your views to a different audience. At Koko Cheers all are welcome!

That is DEAD WRONG, Trapezkerl. What I said was that the Greek version did have interpolations, but those involved the DIVINITY of Jesus, not His existence. I further mentioned that there's an Arabic version that does not have those interpolations (which, when referencing the Greek version, were put in brackets) but states much the same thing, regarding the existence of Jesus, His followers, his being put to death by Pilate, and the disciples reporting His resurrection.

You did, in fact, state that the Talmud was written "too late" to be a valid extra-biblical reference to Jesus. And YOU mentioned that it was written in 200 A.D. After which, I asked to show that the 200 A.D. manuscript was the original, as opposed to the earliest-known copy. To this day, you have produced nothing to support your statement.

These are your words:

The Talmud, written centuries after the 'fact' is worthless; moreover it claims hanging and stoning. Worthless document

Not in the habit of fact checking back then; 200 CE is too late to be considered of any value for relevance to events that purportedly happened in 30 CE. That is a fact.

A document written in 200 CE is far to late to contain accurate information about a human Jesus/Yeshua. By then everyone knew what Christians believed and thought their founder was.


Plus, you stated that it was inaccurate anyway, because it mentioned "stoning and hanging". I then explained the reasons for that. To refresh your memory, Jesus was accused of practicing sorcery (as the Talmud states), the normal maximum punishment for that was death by stoning. Had the Jews actually carried out the sentence, that would happened. But, the Romans did so; as such, Jesus was "hanged", or crucified. The Hebrew word for hanging can mean being strung up by the neck, crucifixion, or impalement.

[Tre]

At the end of the day, He (not you or I) is the Creator. As He is the giver of life, it would follow that He has the right to take life away, when He sees fit, whether we agree with it or not, whether we understand why or not.

Then let him do it himself. 

He shouldn't ask people to do his dirty work.

[Tre]

I would just tell him to fuck off.

[OzmO]

You made no specifications about whether Loco (or I) were a Jewish soldier vs. King Saul (to whom God gave the order), earlier. You got your answers and now, you're switching the questions.

You're not portraying the Jews as murderers? Excuse me! That's been the subject of your outrage every time this subject gets mentioned. Loco's answer was (regardless of whether he was a soldier or King Saul himself) that he would carry out God's instructions, protecting his people and put down an enemy that has been assualting his people for over three centuries.

My answer is similar. But, as I stated earlier, there's no one who's been assaulting my people or have been doing so for 300 years.

By the way, you have a question I don't think you've addressed. That would be why, if you claim that the Jews lied about the reason for Saul's orders to deal with the Amalekites, Saul lost his throne?

Who ordered the Jews to kill the children?   Saul or God?  I need some clarification.   

BTW, feel free the answer the question:

If you were a jewish soldier would you have killed 2-3-4-year olds and infants on God's orders?

[MCWAY]

Who ordered the Jews to kill the children?   Saul or God?  I need some clarification.   

BTW, feel free the answer the question:

If you were a jewish soldier would you have killed 2-3-4-year olds and infants on God's orders?

I already did. But, just in case you missed it, I would carry out the order: Destroy Amalek, everything and everyone. It's either Amalek or Israel. If I were an ancient Israelite, I know what side I'm picking.

Now, it's your turn. If this account, as you claimed, was all a big lie (with regards to God giving the order to destroy all the Amalekites), why did Saul lose his throne, for keeping the choice livestock, silver and gold, as well as sparing the Amalekite king? By all earthly standards, that's a big, BIG victory for the Israelites.

[OzmO]

I already did. But, just in case you missed it, I would carry out the order: Destroy Amalek, everything and everyone. It's either Amalek or Israel. If I were an ancient Israelite, I know what side I'm picking.

Now, it's your turn. If this account, as you claimed, was all a big lie (with regards to God giving the order to destroy all the Amalekites), why did Saul lose his throne, for keeping the choice livestock, silver and gold, as well as sparing the Amalekite king? By all earthly standards, that's a big, BIG victory for the Israelites.

Ok, so you would have killed children, killed babies, infants etc.   

Thanks for answering.


So Saul, ordered the deaths of the children but kept the livestock and then lost his throne because of it?

[The Freakshow]

Anyone see just how stupid that is?  God ordering someone to kill a child?

He ordered the Jews to murder the amalikite children.

Would you do it?

I wouldn't.  He can stick that order in his ass.  And if he sends me to hell he's a hypocrite and cannot possibly be god.  And if he really is GOD, then to hell i go, becuase i'd rather burn in hell than kill a child, becuase if that's what i'm supposed to do to go to heaven then forget it.  I will not kill a child so that i can go to heaven.

 i will not lose my soul becuase GOD couldn't in all "his wisdom and power" find a better answer.

Because of course you are much wiser than him.

Do not be decieved my friend, God will not be mocked.

It would be my guess that you have much deeper lying issues than what God has asked people to do. Throwing up smokescreens isn't going to get you anywhere with God. He sees right through it. He knows your every thought.

God doesnt want you to go to hell, it's His desire that "none should perish but for all to come to repentance."

[Deicide]

Because of course you are much wiser than him.

Do not be decieved my friend, God will not be mocked.

It would be my guess that you have much deeper lying issues than what God has asked people to do. Throwing up smokescreens isn't going to get you anywhere with God. He sees right through it. He knows your every thought.

God doesnt want you to go to hell, it's His desire that "none should perish but for all to come to repentance."

Oh boy, another bible thumping fundy nutcase...

[loco]

Doesn't matter if the law changes.

Abortion will still happen.

but what will change is the fall out from abortion being illegal.

-  Health issues from Illegal abortions
-  Criminal and Court cost from illegal abortions will cost tax payers more
-  Foster care and welfare costs will rise

And this is coming from the same guy who posted this:

Anyone see just how stupid that is?  God ordering someone to kill a child?

He ordered the Jews to murder the amalikite children.

Would you do it?

I wouldn't.  He can stick that order in his ass.  And if he sends me to hell he's a hypocrite and cannot possibly be god.  And if he really is GOD, then to hell i go, becuase i'd rather burn in hell than kill a child, becuase if that's what i'm supposed to do to go to heaven then forget it.  I will not kill a child so that i can go to heaven.

 i will not lose my soul becuase GOD couldn't in all "his wisdom and power" find a better answer.

 

OzmO,
It's so easy to whine and complain about Israel completely destroying the Amalekites who for centuries had killed Israeli women and children, something that happened thousands of years ago, something that you and the rest of the skeptics here don't even believe even happened.

But when it comes to the here and now, when it comes to abortion, you believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.  You are a man of many words, but no action.  While Christians rally and protest legal abortion, to defend those who can't defend themselves and speaking for those you can't speak for themselves, you do nothing but sit in front of your computer and post on getbig. 

Christians will eventually abolish legal abortions, just like it was primarily Christians who abolished slavery in England and in the US.  And many years from now, people will look back in disbelief at how abortion was once legal, and people will forget that it was primarily Christians who opposed and abolished it, just as was the case with slavery.  But you go ahead and, for the sake of your personal interests, oppose those who attempt to abolish legal abortions, all the while posting on getbig about how bad Israel was for destroying the wicked Amalekites.

[loco]

I would just tell him to fuck off.

Honestly, you would?  Even if you were an Israeli man who had witnessed the Amalekites rape and murder your grand parents, only to come back a few years later and murder your parents and baby sister, only to come back a few years later and murder your wife, sons and daughters...even if you had witnessed your brothers and their families starve to death because the Amalekites kept coming back and destroying your crops and stealing your possessions, generation after generation for three centuries? 

[Tre]

That's different.  If I'd seen such, then I'd go after the perps, their families, and their friends a la Keyser Söze.

But a random kill order from this 'God' fella?  I'd tell him to fuck off, because I'm not a murderer.

[gtbro1]

  It depends on the child.If they were a fu**ing brat....sure.

[Necrosis]

That is DEAD WRONG, Trapezkerl. What I said was that the Greek version did have interpolations, but those involved the DIVINITY of Jesus, not His existence. I further mentioned that there's an Arabic version that does not have those interpolations (which, when referencing the Greek version, were put in brackets) but states much the same thing, regarding the existence of Jesus, His followers, his being put to death by Pilate, and the disciples reporting His resurrection.

You did, in fact, state that the Talmud was written "too late" to be a valid extra-biblical reference to Jesus. And YOU mentioned that it was written in 200 A.D. After which, I asked to show that the 200 A.D. manuscript was the original, as opposed to the earliest-known copy. To this day, you have produced nothing to support your statement.

These are your words:

The Talmud, written centuries after the 'fact' is worthless; moreover it claims hanging and stoning. Worthless document

Not in the habit of fact checking back then; 200 CE is too late to be considered of any value for relevance to events that purportedly happened in 30 CE. That is a fact.

A document written in 200 CE is far to late to contain accurate information about a human Jesus/Yeshua. By then everyone knew what Christians believed and thought their founder was.


Plus, you stated that it was inaccurate anyway, because it mentioned "stoning and hanging". I then explained the reasons for that. To refresh your memory, Jesus was accused of practicing sorcery (as the Talmud states), the normal maximum punishment for that was death by stoning. Had the Jews actually carried out the sentence, that would happened. But, the Romans did so; as such, Jesus was "hanged", or crucified. The Hebrew word for hanging can mean being strung up by the neck, crucifixion, or impalement.

does god know the future?

[OzmO]

And this is coming from the same guy who posted this:

 

OzmO,
It's so easy to whine and complain about Israel completely destroying the Amalekites who for centuries had killed Israeli women and children, something that happened thousands of years ago, something that you and the rest of the skeptics here don't even believe even happened.

Again you get it wrong!   Why are you so thick sometimes?  Is it a language barrier?

I don't believe God ordered innocent children to be killed.   Because that would make God an evil murderer.   But Conservative Christians are OK with that.  They'll kill children on God's orders.   They'll believe God has a wiser purpose to do so and that they shouldn't question it even though KILLING CHILDREN DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS GOD'S TEACHINGS.

This is the root of suffering under religious persecution.  This is were it is born.  From people who blindly follow and disregard their compassion and common sense.

But when it comes to the here and now, when it comes to abortion, you believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.  You are a man of many words, but no action.

You call me a man with no action?  What the frick do you know loco?   Look at one of the older abortion threads in the Politics board were i tell Cap about my brother who recently found out that his girl friend was pregnant and had called me and our father to lend him money for an abortion.   You'll read that i talked him out of it and urged him to keep the baby (which he is now) telling him that aborting is murder.  He's keeping his baby because of what my father and i did. 

That's action on a personal level.   That's where i can make a difference.   I can make a difference influencing the people in my life.   But fact is whether abortion is legal or illegal my brother's girl friend could get a abortion if she chose to.   AND the fall out from making abortion illegal out weighs making it legal.

But what the frick do i know about you loco?  I know you'd ram a spear through an innocent child because you've blinded your common sense with a book of stories which in my book brings to question your moral compass and makes you a potentially dangerous person.

So don't tell me about actions.  You don't know a dam thing about that.

[loco]

But Conservative Christians are OK with that.  They'll kill children on God's orders. 

Please name one conservative Christian who kills children on orders from God. 

Please do tell us how God would order a conservative Christian to kill a child, with a little voice in his/her head, by sending an angel of light with the message?  Conservative Christians don't listen to little voices in their head or to angels, they listen only to the Bible.

Look at one of the older abortion threads in the Politics board were i tell Cap about my brother who recently found out that his girl friend was pregnant and had called me and our father to lend him money for an abortion.   You'll read that i talked him out of it and urged him to keep the baby (which he is now) telling him that aborting is murder.  He's keeping his baby because of what my father and i did. 

That's action on a personal level.   That's where i can make a difference.   I can make a difference influencing the people in my life.   But fact is whether abortion is legal or illegal my brother's girl friend could get a abortion if she chose to.   AND the fall out from making abortion illegal out weighs making it legal.

That's awesome, OzmO.  It really is and I'm impressed.  But that does not justify your reasons for not defending or speaking for the many unborn babies that get murdered every year and the many murderers who go unpunished.  How is this different from saying

"I owned a slave, but I let him go free.  I did my part.  I made a difference at a personal level, but I still think slavery should be legal for the health of the nation's economy."?

[OzmO]

Please name one conservative Christian who kills children on orders from God. 

There is no one currently killing innocent children on orders from God.  But if i were to name 2 that would kill children on orders from God they would be:

1.  loco
2.  McWay

Please do tell us how God would order a conservative Christian to kill a child, with a little voice in his/her head, by sending an angel of light with the message?  Conservative Christians don't listen to little voices in their head or to angels, they listen only to the Bible.

kind of sounds like you worship a book.    Anyways......

A another good question wold be:  If  God contacted you and you knew it was God beyond a shadow of a doubt and he ordered you to kill 10 innocent babies who's fathers were Al Queda, would you do it?

That's awesome, OzmO.  It really is and I'm impressed.  But that does not justify your reasons for not defending or speaking for the many unborn babies that get murdered every year and the many murderers who go unpunished.  How is this different from saying

"I owned a slave, but I let him go free.  I did my part.  I made a difference at a personal level, but I still think slavery should be legal for the health of the nation's economy."?

It's different because i would never own a slave to begin with. 

BTW,   The economy is one concern but the health of the mothers who will get abortions in places and from doctors that are regulated and whose practices are held to the current standard is another.  Because then you potentially kill nmothers and babies.

I realize i walk a fine line in my views.   I'm being practical and think the answer to the problem isn't to make it illegal, it's to raise the level of morality in our society.  In a perfect world no one would chose to have an abortion and it wouldn't even be needed to make it illegal.  But we are far from it and even if it's illegal it will still happen.

I can only make a difference in the people i influence.  Something i will always do.   Had my Daughter got pregnant at any age, i'd make sure she had the baby.   Anyone who i know who ever thinks of having an abortion i strongly encourage them to keep it telling them they will regret it for the rest of their lives if they abort.

[loco]

There is no one currently killing innocent children on orders from God.  But if i were to name 2 that would kill children on orders from God they would be:

1.  loco
2.  McWay

kind of sounds like you worship a book.    Anyways......

A another good question wold be:  If  God contacted you and you knew it was God beyond a shadow of a doubt and he ordered you to kill 10 innocent babies who's fathers were Al Queda, would you do it?

It's different because i would never own a slave to begin with. 

BTW,   The economy is one concern but the health of the mothers who will get abortions in places and from doctors that are regulated and whose practices are held to the current standard is another.  Because then you potentially kill nmothers and babies.

I realize i walk a fine line in my views.   I'm being practical and think the answer to the problem isn't to make it illegal, it's to raise the level of morality in our society.  In a perfect world no one would chose to have an abortion and it wouldn't even be needed to make it illegal.  But we are far from it and even if it's illegal it will still happen.

I can only make a difference in the people i influence.  Something i will always do.   Had my Daughter got pregnant at any age, i'd make sure she had the baby.   Anyone who i know who ever thinks of having an abortion i strongly encourage them to keep it telling them they will regret it for the rest of their lives if they abort.

Thanks OzmO!  You call me a child murderer for no reason, but God bless you anyway!

I call you a man of many words and no action, because that is what you are, and you meltdown.  Touchy touchy.

Sure, let's not defend those who can't defend themselves.  Let's not speak for those who can't speak for themselves.  Why?  For the sake of the murderer's health and for the sake of the state's economy.  But yeah, let's post on getbig and try to portray all Jews and Christians as child murderers.  That's the whole point of this thread.  Great job!     

Have a Happy Thanksgiving Day, OzmO!   

[OzmO]

Thanks OzmO!  You call me a child murderer for no reason, but God bless you anyway!

First off i didn't call you a child murderer.

You are not one until you actually kill a child.  But potentially you are, by YOUR words.  NOT mine.

I call you a man of many words and no action, because that is what you are, and you meltdown.  Touchy touchy.

Not a meltdown.  (you must be really grasping now for claiming i melted down)  Simply stating you don't know what you are talking about when you claim i don't take action.

Sure, let's not defend those who can't defend themselves.  Let's not speak for those who can't speak for themselves.  Why?  For the sake of the murderer's health and for the sake of the state's economy.  But yeah, let's post on getbig and try to portray all Jews and Christians as child murderers.  That's the whole point of this thread.  Great job!     Roll Eyes

You are the one who claim that's i claim all Jew and Christian are child murders.....  I never have done that.   Am i touching a nerve loco, because you can't seem to see that. 

You have a great Thanksgiving too loco and God bless you.

[Tre]

  It depends on the child.

L O L

[Deicide]

There is no one currently killing innocent children on orders from God.  But if i were to name 2 that would kill children on orders from God they would be:

1.  loco
2.  McWay

kind of sounds like you worship a book.    Anyways......

A another good question wold be:  If  God contacted you and you knew it was God beyond a shadow of a doubt and he ordered you to kill 10 innocent babies who's fathers were Al Queda, would you do it?

It's different because i would never own a slave to begin with. 

BTW,   The economy is one concern but the health of the mothers who will get abortions in places and from doctors that are regulated and whose practices are held to the current standard is another.  Because then you potentially kill nmothers and babies.

I realize i walk a fine line in my views.   I'm being practical and think the answer to the problem isn't to make it illegal, it's to raise the level of morality in our society.  In a perfect world no one would chose to have an abortion and it wouldn't even be needed to make it illegal.  But we are far from it and even if it's illegal it will still happen.

I can only make a difference in the people i influence.  Something i will always do.   Had my Daughter got pregnant at any age, i'd make sure she had the baby.   Anyone who i know who ever thinks of having an abortion i strongly encourage them to keep it telling them they will regret it for the rest of their lives if they .
abort

Very subjective. When I was living in Germany a friend of mine got pregnant after being raped and whilst the rape had left deep scars on her, the abortion was an ugly necessity. As I said before abortion in the real world is an ugly reality and only in the hee-haw USA is this an issue, usually turned into one by religious nutcases who want to murder homosexuals and enforce a Christian theocracy on the country.

It is a great irony that the USA, often lauded for its scientific and technological advancements, is still crawling on its hands and knees in worship of ancient fables and mythology. Strange indeed...

[Necrosis]

Thanks OzmO!  You call me a child murderer for no reason, but God bless you anyway!

I call you a man of many words and no action, because that is what you are, and you meltdown.  Touchy touchy.

Sure, let's not defend those who can't defend themselves.  Let's not speak for those who can't speak for themselves.  Why?  For the sake of the murderer's health and for the sake of the state's economy.  But yeah, let's post on getbig and try to portray all Jews and Christians as child murderers.  That's the whole point of this thread.  Great job!     

Have a Happy Thanksgiving Day, OzmO!   

does god know the future?

[OzmO]

does god know the future?

He's having issues becuase he admitted he'd murder children.   

[nzhardgain]

add me.I would be too scared to go against God.

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe