Is there any practical way to measure atherosclerosis?

[cephissus]

I've long considered trying a ketogenic diet, and even gave it a shot once, for two whole days . But there are a lot of nagging questions, the main one being: who knows who's right in the heart-health debate? On one hand, you have the American Hearth Association saying "saturated fat and cholesterol kills," and on the other, you have every third vlogger and ex-paleo shill claiming nothing could be further from the truth.

I think the only only be satisfied if I could test the diet myself and measure the effects. But a blood test only tells you so much -- side note: apart from cholesterol levels, what else is important? -- and from what I remember, it seems like measuring artery blockage isn't done unless you seem to be at serious risk. Does anyone know, practically, how someone could measure the effect of a high-fat diet on their artery and heart health?

[chess315]

I would say there's really no way to no if any of this shit works if you feel better like it it works. I mean all the crazy things we try you have just got to be practical. Im just trying to take enough gear to be big and strong at this point and feel better.

[mphgrove]

Manipulating your diet over a short period and then trying to observe changes in plaque build-up would be hard to do. Plaque builds up over time and, while reversal can occur, it wouldn’t show immediate change from a diet change. Cholesterol (and tryglicerides) are the best blood test pointers. Echocardiograms give some indication. But you are correct in one regard. It takes having a serious problem already for the doctor to give you the tests (and insurance to pay) for the more advanced analysis that would really tell you anything for sure.

[calfzilla]

My suggestion would be to watch some Dr (chiropractor) Eric Berg videos on YouTube.

He advocates for Keto but rather than the Atkins style, stresses the importance of large amounts of vegetables for the health benefits from the fiber, magnesium, potassium etc.  He also suggests to eat more organic meat and grass fed beef.

I enjoy his videos because they are short and informative.

[Disgusted]

EBT Scan (calcium score) $99.00 I get one done every 5 years.

[Pray_4_War]

My Cardiologist says the AHA is wrong.  I'm simplifying but he says that LDL-P and particle size is key to whether a person will be likely to have "an event".

https://www.docsopinion.com/2012/11/21/the-difference-between-ldl-c-and-ldl-p/

https://www.docsopinion.com/health-and-nutrition/lipids/ldl-p/

[cephissus]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll check out the videos later.

Disgusted, what do you look for in the calcium test?

Mphgrove, do you think a year or two would be long enough? Is there some test you could take before and after which would show, "yeah, placque is built up faster last year than in the previous X years of your life?" Or is this unrealistic?

[Taffin]

'PLAC' test maybe?  As long as the 'appears' below is accurate of course....

"Lipoprotein-associated phospholipase A2 (Lp-PLA2) is an enzyme that seems to have a role in the progression of early, relatively stable atherosclerotic plaques to unstable rupture-prone plaques.

High levels of Lp-PLA2 are present in unstable rupture-prone plaques and it appears that Lp-PLA2 is released from these plaques into the circulation where it`s levels can then be measured by a simple blood test.

Individuals with elevated levels of Lp-PLA2 are at heighted risk for heart attacks and strokes irrespective of their other risk factors.

The Lp-PLA2 blood test has been approved by the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for assessing the risk of stroke and coronary artery disease."

http://www.bluecrestscreening.com/bluecrest-health-checks/advanced-plac-test

[Tapeworm]

My Cardiologist says the AHA is wrong.  I'm simplifying but he says that LDL-P and particle size is key to whether a person will be likely to have "an event".

https://www.docsopinion.com/2012/11/21/the-difference-between-ldl-c-and-ldl-p/

https://www.docsopinion.com/health-and-nutrition/lipids/ldl-p/

I recall Dr. Rhonda on Rogan mentioned the importance of LDL particle types.  The moral seemed to be that genetics, lifestyle, and co-dietary factors (evil sugar, etc) factored in to how well people process dietary fat.

You can tell she was never hot but she's aging very well.  You'd probably fuck her.

[falco]

If your dick is unresponsive, your artheries are pretty much ALL clogged up. The is no hope from this point on.

[mphgrove]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll check out the videos later.

Disgusted, what do you look for in the calcium test?

Mphgrove, do you think a year or two would be long enough? Is there some test you could take before and after which would show, "yeah, placque is built up faster last year than in the previous X years of your life?" Or is this unrealistic?

No, still seems to me that using the pointers to figure out what is best for you is a better approach than trying to do a controlled experiment. I lean toward a low carb diet for most of us (prediabetes and high LDL-P aggravation as stated above via high carbs, etc.) but maybe different approaches for how much saturated fats. I don’t worry too much about saturated fat for me (keto). For example, the association of high LDL-P and high triglycerides is a particular negative, so maybe go lower saturated fat (more focus on chicken and fish) if the triglycerides are high. Agree with the comment above about always LOTS of vegetables.

[ProudVirgin69]

AFAIK the main diagnostic tests are coronary angiography (where they inject contrast dye into an IV and run a CT scan of your heart.  It'll visualize bloodflow/occlusion of your coronary arteries) and ultrasonagraphy (used to assess occlusion of your carotid arteries.  Noninvasive). 

You'd be hardpressed to find a Doc that would order either one of these without clear clinical indication, and honestly I dont think they are sensitive enough to measure the small changes that would occur in just a few years.  Both have an acceptable margin of error of a few % points.  So short answer to your question: No. 

[mphgrove]

This may be a bit spiritual or intuitive, but which dietary approach FEELS best to you? My body screams at me to avoid sugary carbohydrates, but seems to welcome eggs, beef, lamb, fatty fish, even mayonnaise.  That’s an experiment you can do easily. Do paleo approach for 2 months. Then do AHA approach for 2 months (but be careful about too many grains where I don’t agree with them on their historical pyramid). See how you feel.

[Zillotch]

r u scared of dying?

[Disgusted]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll check out the videos later.

Disgusted, what do you look for in the calcium test?

Mphgrove, do you think a year or two would be long enough? Is there some test you could take before and after which would show, "yeah, placque is built up faster last year than in the previous X years of your life?" Or is this unrealistic?

Plaque (blockages)

[lilhawk1]

AFAIK the main diagnostic tests are coronary angiography (where they inject contrast dye into an IV and run a CT scan of your heart.  It'll visualize bloodflow/occlusion of your coronary arteries) and ultrasonagraphy (used to assess occlusion of your carotid arteries.  Noninvasive). 

You'd be hardpressed to find a Doc that would order either one of these without clear clinical indication, and honestly I dont think they are sensitive enough to measure the small changes that would occur in just a few years.  Both have an acceptable margin of error of a few % points.  So short answer to your question: No. 

They most certainly will measure changes that occur in just a few years.  The catheters are inserted through a sheath in the femoral artery, and run up into the heart.  Contrast is injected and fluoroscopy is used to visualize the left and right coronary arteries.  The same is done with the carotid arteries, and is often done at the same time if the doctor sees fit.  Coronary angiography is the gold standard for determining if heart disease exists, and the extent of it. Typically doctors won't perform angioplasty/stenting unless the artery is 70% occluded, and/or the patient is symptomatic.  Typically a stress test is done first, and if the stress test is abnormal, then the patient is recommended for an angiogram.

[Disgusted]

They most certainly will measure changes that occur in just a few years.  The catheters are inserted through a sheath in the femoral artery, and run up into the heart.  Contrast is injected and fluoroscopy is used to visualize the left and right coronary arteries.  The same is done with the carotid arteries, and is often done at the same time if the doctor sees fit.  Coronary angiography is the gold standard for determining if heart disease exists, and the extent of it. Typically doctors won't perform angioplasty/stenting unless the artery is 70% occluded, and/or the patient is symptomatic.  Typically a stress test is done first, and if the stress test is abnormal, then the patient is recommended for an angiogram.

Stress tests suck for testing blockage and an angio while rare can cause trash foot. A friend of mine lost some toes do to an exploratory angio. Like I said a calcium score is best way to go. It's totally non invasion, no dye just lay there for a minute and you are done.

[mphgrove]

Stress tests suck for testing blockage and an angio while rare can cause trash foot. A friend of mine lost some toes do to an exploratory angio. Like I said a calcium score is best way to go. It's totally non invasion, no dye just lay there for a minute and you are done.

Disgusted, thanks for tip on calcium scoring. Do you think echocardiograms say much about blockage or heart trouble in general (e.g., ejection fraction, size and pliability of aortas, movement between heart and lung, diastolic, etc)? I am at an age where friends and acquaintances are being surprised out of the clear blue by serious heart trouble their doctors weren’t the least bit on to. One friend is a doctor himself.

[Disgusted]

Disgusted, thanks for tip on calcium scoring. Do you think echocardiograms say much about blockage or heart trouble in general (e.g., ejection fraction, size and pliability of aortas, movement between heart and lung, diastolic, etc)? I am at an age where friends and acquaintances are being surprised out of the clear blue by serious heart trouble their doctors weren’t the least bit on to. One friend is a doctor himself.

Echo is mainly for EF EKG for rhythm. Get all three done and you should feel pretty comfortable that things are OK. The calcium score can usually be set up with a call to your local hospital. You don't need a Dr slip and it will cost you about $99. Do a web search for places nearest you.

You can also get an app for your Iphone called Kardia. It's had a hand held device that hooks up to your blue tooth. It will do an EKG and you can even have it read by a Dr. for $9.  The device is $100.

[cephissus]

So we've got cholesterol, triglycerides, and calcium. What do you guys think are good scores? I know there are varying opinions, e.g. vegan gains loves to talk about getting your total cholesterol under 150 mg/dl (I think), whereas most doctors think higher is okay.

[mphgrove]

So we've got cholesterol, triglycerides, and calcium. What do you guys think are good scores? I know there are varying opinions, e.g. vegan gains loves to talk about getting your total cholesterol under 150 mg/do (I think), whereas most doctors think higher is okay.

I know nothing about calcium but want to learn. How about these:
Total C - under about 180
LDL - under about 85 or 90
HDL - over 45 (I think if total C is low, then it’s OK for HDL to be on the low side)
Triglycerides - under 100

Just some guesstimates. By the way, cholesterol levels ARE very responsive to short-term dietary changes in my experience, e.g., pre-contest diet. Even if you’re not actually going on stage, pretend like you’re getting ready for a contest and you’ll see your levels drop (barring out-of-norm supplementation factors).

[Marty Champions]

working out daily overides a shit diet

[usmcdevildoc]

Angiography only sure way

[Disgusted]

working out daily overides a shit diet

 Said only you ever. 

[che]

working out daily overides a shit diet

What?