Author Topic: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions  (Read 2173 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2010, 07:14:24 AM »
You know it was a good interview when all of the Liberal Propaganda Outlets like MSNBC and to a lesser extent, CNN, were all over it. Adding to that, those "news" outlets didn't really even TOUCH the substance of the interview, Obama's answers or the questions, no, instead they obfuscated and misdirected on the interviewer being "rude"



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turrilli

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2010, 01:33:01 AM »
I guess that's my bottom line.  FOX has spent 6 months doing nothing but interviewing old people (receiving govt healthcare) complaining young people don't deserve it.  They've interviewed young people who say the bill is marxist, communist, evilist, yada yada.

But they sure as shit haven't come up with a plan for 30 mil uninsured people.

This simply isn't true. Most all Americans, even those at Fox want health care reform, however, most Americans, including those at Fox do not want this health care bill. Tons of solutions have been made, tort reform legislation and easing commerce restrictions would do wonders for our system. Both of these ideas were brought forth to the president and both houses numerous times and made known by Fox as well.

Saying those that are opposed don't want health care reform and haven't made any suggestions simply doesn't carry any weight.

They've interviewed young people who say the bill is marxist, communist, evilist, yada yada.

When you have white house staff members who are self-avoid socialist, when you have those in the white house and in both houses of congress who tout Mao as a ideal man of vision to mimic, when you use language that is directly from the Soviet Constitution to back your arguments, it's hard to argue that this bill isn't full of socialistic Marxist ideology.


IF IF IF the GOp had come up wtih a better plan than obamacare, FOX could have spent the last 6 months selling it to americans, and they would have been very effective.  Instead, they sold a "do nothing" bill to america.  They worked to sell inaction.  That's it.
Again, simply not true. Of those who work for Fox and several of their contributors, O'Reily, Beck, Krauthammer, Malkin, Ingram, etc have all pushed for tort reform and freeing comerce restrictions.


That's why I'm so disappointed.  We're all high-fiving because "oh yeah, that guy interrupted obama and yes, we kicked ass!" just as the bill is in the final stages of passing.  You're high-fiving over who has the nicest seat on the titanic at this point.  Celebrating.  Geez.  They had a nation tired of liberal ass obama, and a year to come up with something better.

it never materialized.  We're about to settle for some crap sandwich bill because, well, to many people it is better than INACTION.  That is exactly whey the GOP and FOX tried to sell for rising healthcare costs - INACTION.  Do nothing and hope somebody just lowers prices.

Well, when this shitty bill passes, we can all look back at high-fiving over the declared wins when Palin's death panels was 'the final nail in the bill' or Howard Dean just sunk the Dem HC plan!

We're gonna end up wtih socialized medicine, sitting in the waiting rooms with illegals for DMV service.  Why?  Cause the repubs had 12 years of congress, and a year of a captive nation in 2009/2010 begging for an alternative to obamacare... and their only action was INACTION.   

Now I will agree with you on some of these last statements. We are headed for socialized medicine, this there is no doubt. And you're right, the GOP had a lot of time to fix the things they are pushing now, but these things haven't needed to be fixed simply for the last 12 years, action has been needed for at least the last 25 years and that's figuring conservative IMO.

Health care does need some reform legislation, however, passing legislation that will make it worse is not the answer. Although I do not agree with inaction, it would still be better than action in the wrong direction. If you're house is on fire you have 2 options...throw gas on it and make it worse or call the fire dept and hope they get there. Calling the fire dept is taking the right action, yes your house may burn before they get there, depending on how bad the fire is but you don't create a bigger fire for them to put out.

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2010, 06:35:40 AM »
'GMAFB 240.  more garbage from you.  Seriously, are you drinking to much again?  "

So, please argue one thing I said there.

The LIbs are going to pass Obamacare because the repubs didn't deliver any kind of healthcare for the last 12 years.

If you disagree, please tell us why.  Don't just insult me - look at my post and tell me what is incorrect.  IMO, inaction on the part of the GOP led people to a desperate point where they are willing to accept (almost) any bill Obama lays out.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2010, 12:46:12 PM »
'GMAFB 240.  more garbage from you.  Seriously, are you drinking to much again?  "

So, please argue one thing I said there.

The LIbs are going to pass Obamacare because the repubs didn't deliver any kind of healthcare for the last 12 years.

If you disagree, please tell us why.  Don't just insult me - look at my post and tell me what is incorrect.  IMO, inaction on the part of the GOP led people to a desperate point where they are willing to accept (almost) any bill Obama lays out.

Did it ever dawn on you 240 that when 85% of the public like their insurance as it is, the GOP did not really think it was a huge priority to mess with peoples' insurance?

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2010, 05:24:00 PM »
in that case, the GOP ignored 30 million uninsured people for 12 years.

This was irresponsible to ignore this group, cause the first snake oil salesman (obama) with a smooth grin and anything resembling healthcare for them would get, say, 53% of the popular vote.

And that "85% of people love their insurance!" number kinda doesn't poll the 1 in 6 americans without any health insurance at all.


Face it, the republicans enjoyed their BBQ as the number of starving people outside the fence grew big enough to climb over the fence to take their food.  It's that simple.   They should have enacted a voluntary plan for those 1 in 6 americans so this obama mess would never have happened.

Skip8282

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2010, 06:25:34 PM »
'GMAFB 240.  more garbage from you.  Seriously, are you drinking to much again?  "

So, please argue one thing I said there.

The LIbs are going to pass Obamacare because the repubs didn't deliver any kind of healthcare for the last 12 years.

If you disagree, please tell us why.  Don't just insult me - look at my post and tell me what is incorrect.  IMO, inaction on the part of the GOP led people to a desperate point where they are willing to accept (almost) any bill Obama lays out.

I think you're dead-on with this.  If Republicans had addressed the issue, we would not be in the predicament we're in now.  People might like their insurance, but I doubt anybody likes the exorbitant rates they are paying.  I hate this bill and I would agree at this point that the status quo would be better than Obamacare, but the status quo can't continue indefinitely.  And as long as Republican lawmakers refuse to address the issue, it's just going to keep coming up again and again, regardless of whether or not Obamacare passes.

tonymctones

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2010, 09:57:34 PM »
in that case, the GOP ignored 30 million uninsured people for 12 years.

This was irresponsible to ignore this group, cause the first snake oil salesman (obama) with a smooth grin and anything resembling healthcare for them would get, say, 53% of the popular vote.

And that "85% of people love their insurance!" number kinda doesn't poll the 1 in 6 americans without any health insurance at all.


Face it, the republicans enjoyed their BBQ as the number of starving people outside the fence grew big enough to climb over the fence to take their food.  It's that simple.   They should have enacted a voluntary plan for those 1 in 6 americans so this obama mess would never have happened.
how many of those 30 million can afford it but choose not to buy in? how many are choosing not to work full time right now?
I think that if the reps really wanted to throw a monkey wrench in the dems plan they would release a bill of their own so I agree that they are to blame for this as well...

but again acting simply to act which seems to be the obama mantra is plain idiocy

turrilli

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2010, 10:10:38 PM »
how many of those 30 million can afford it but choose not to buy in? how many are choosing not to work full time right now?

Plenty of people fall into this category. There are thousands if not millions who are self-employed, fall into the age group of 20-40, can afford it but simply choose not to...it's a different mindset, they don't really think about needing it because at this point they haven't. And you're right again, there are tons of people who only work a little or not at all simply by choice. Obviously they are not insured but whose fault is that really?

I think that if the reps really wanted to throw a monkey wrench in the dems plan they would release a bill of their own so I agree that they are to blame for this as well...
They can't release any bill, that's the problem. They've made suggestion after suggestion, but to get a bill moving forward you have to have support behind the bill and when you're ridiculously outnumbered, that is nearly impossible.


but again acting simply to act which seems to be the obama mantra is plain idiocy

You're right, it's like being unemployed, maybe you can't find a job even though you're trying, so you decide you need to do something so you go out into the street and do a rain dance while you're butt ass naked...hey, at least you're doing something and this bill is the equivalent of that.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2010, 05:12:53 AM »
Plenty of people fall into this category. There are thousands if not millions who are self-employed, fall into the age group of 20-40, can afford it but simply choose not to...it's a different mindset, they don't really think about needing it because at this point they haven't. And you're right again, there are tons of people who only work a little or not at all simply by choice. Obviously they are not insured but whose fault is that really?
They can't release any bill, that's the problem. They've made suggestion after suggestion, but to get a bill moving forward you have to have support behind the bill and when you're ridiculously outnumbered, that is nearly impossible.


You're right, it's like being unemployed, maybe you can't find a job even though you're trying, so you decide you need to do something so you go out into the street and do a rain dance while you're butt ass naked...hey, at least you're doing something and this bill is the equivalent of that.

Exactly!  When I started my business i could not afford insurance and just didnt need or want it.  I saved the money and kept healthy etc.  The idea that the fed gov is going to force young people to purchase insurance they cant afford and or dont want is horrible. 

BodyProSite

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2010, 05:13:50 AM »
unconstitutional is the word.

Skip8282

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2010, 05:29:23 AM »

but again acting simply to act which seems to be the obama mantra is plain idiocy


I don't think it's fair to characterize the libs with that.  Their not acting for the sake of acting.  This has been a major issue for a long time and the Republicans spent years sitting on their asses not addressing a fucking thing.  And that apathetic attitude is why this piece of shit bill is being crammed down our throats.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2010, 05:34:02 AM »

I don't think it's fair to characterize the libs with that.  Their not acting for the sake of acting.  This has been a major issue for a long time and the Republicans spent years sitting on their asses not addressing a fucking thing.  And that apathetic attitude is why this piece of shit bill is being crammed down our throats.

Skip - 85% of the people like their insurance.  Why would the GOP mess with that? 

Also, health insurance is a state issue, not a federal one.  Rates for insurance vary greatly by state depending on the regulations in saids states.  For example, in NYS we pay a shit load because of state mandates and regulations.  We also dont allow catastropihc care, which we should. 

Finally, the number of uninsured does not take into account:

1.  Those who qualify for an existing program but dont sign up?

2.  People who just dont want to  buy it, like i did. 

3.  How many of those are illegals?

4.  How many of those are people who will get insurance from another job if the economy rebounds, which now it definately wont. 


This entire debate has been filled with lies and distortions to justify this mess called obamacare. 

Also, if the govt cant restrain spending in medicare and medicade now, why should be believe a new law will do the trick when the track record already sucks?

Skip8282

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2010, 06:00:41 AM »
Skip - 85% of the people like their insurance.  Why would the GOP mess with that? 


That's not an accurate depiction of the current state of affairs.  I like my health insurance too, but nobody, including myself, likes the skyrocketing premiums we've encountered in the last 5 years coupled with a substantial decrease in what services are covered.  And not only have premiums gone up, so have co-pays and deductibles.  2 years ago I had no deductible, a co-pays of $5/$10 (primary/specialist).  Now, I have a $1500 deductible and co-pays of $25/$50 in 2 years (and I have the high option family plan which means I pay substantially more in premiums!)

Republicans have had plenty of time to address this hyperinflation and chose to sit on their asses.  Now, we're all going to suffer for it.


Quote
Also, health insurance is a state issue, not a federal one.  Rates for insurance vary greatly by state depending on the regulations in saids states.  For example, in NYS we pay a shit load because of state mandates and regulations.  We also dont allow catastropihc care, which we should. 

I suppose I could go either way on this.  Their are federal regulations and taxes that drive up healthcare costs.  Again, despite this being on the agenda for years, the Republicans did nothing and now we're fucked.


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Finally, the number of uninsured does not take into account:

1.  Those who qualify for an existing program but dont sign up?

2.  People who just dont want to  buy it, like i did. 

3.  How many of those are illegals?

4.  How many of those are people who will get insurance from another job if the economy rebounds, which now it definitely wont. 

Par for the course.  Medical bankruptcies are one of the primary causes of bankruptcies and it just disgusts me that we give huge amounts of aid to Haiti while these people suffer.  There's a human aspect that I can't just turn a blind eye towards and again, the Republicans should have addressed these issues.  Would've, could've, should've...but they didn't and now we're all getting fucked.


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This entire debate has been filled with lies and distortions to justify this mess called obamacare. 

Also, if the govt cant restrain spending in medicare and medicade now, why should be believe a new law will do the trick when the track record already sucks?


I don't think this bill will be successful.  My own thoughts right now are that it will lead to insurance company executives getting rich beyond their wildest dreams (initially), drain the public of money, make big Pharma even richer if that's possible, and eventually lead to a completely socialized system where insurance companies and jobs will eventually be lost. 

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2010, 08:03:58 AM »
Tony wrote:
how many of those 30 million can afford it but choose not to buy in? how many are choosing not to work full time right now?

Tony, if any of these 'choosing to be uninsured' gets sick, it becomes the part of the taxpayer to cover their asses.  You have sait it yourself that you 'choose' not to carry health insurance, and that is your right.  But the system WOULD take care of you, if you walked into an ER bleeding one day.  Isn't that socialism?  You don't pay insurance, but you know the system will 'take care of you'.

I'm not hating on you for it - when i was in college I could'nt afford health insurance.  But looking back, if I had slipped in my bathtub and split my head open, the ambulance that came to my house to bet me, and the stitches that went into my head, would have been paid for by others.

tonymctones

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2010, 10:24:01 AM »

I don't think it's fair to characterize the libs with that.  Their not acting for the sake of acting.  This has been a major issue for a long time and the Republicans spent years sitting on their asses not addressing a fucking thing.  And that apathetic attitude is why this piece of shit bill is being crammed down our throats.
I agree, my point is more along the lines of hey the reps have said they want reform just not this reform so scale it down a tad and if the reps still dont support it guess what you have them by the balls in november...

to me it seems like this is a hodge podge of lets get this through and worry about it later cluster fuck...I think more honest debate and evaluation is needed before we act, not some blanket huge ass bill thats my point.

tonymctones

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2010, 10:28:30 AM »
They can't release any bill, that's the problem. They've made suggestion after suggestion, but to get a bill moving forward you have to have support behind the bill and when you're ridiculously outnumbered, that is nearly impossible.
The only need to get their bill out to the public it doesnt have to be put to a vote or even ben in the process. Simply lay one out online and let the public know the reps have a plan if they cant get a vote on it or cant get debate on it guess what? who stopped them from doing that?

turrilli

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2010, 02:00:29 PM »
The only need to get their bill out to the public it doesnt have to be put to a vote or even ben in the process. Simply lay one out online and let the public know the reps have a plan if they cant get a vote on it or cant get debate on it guess what? who stopped them from doing that?

There have been many republican reps that have brought tort reform to the house floor and a few to the senate floor. There have been a few, although not as many who brought tort reform to the floor, who brought ease on commerce to the floor taking restrictions off of buying insurance across state lines. But when both of these issues fall on mostly deaf ears it becomes pointless...you might as well try and get a bill started on creating federal funding for time travel.

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Re: Finally, some real, legitimate Questions
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2010, 03:53:12 PM »
I agree, my point is more along the lines of hey the reps have said they want reform just not this reform so scale it down a tad and if the reps still dont support it guess what you have them by the balls in november...

to me it seems like this is a hodge podge of lets get this through and worry about it later cluster fuck...I think more honest debate and evaluation is needed before we act, not some blanket huge ass bill thats my point.


Fair enough, I think we can both agree on that!