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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Wrestling Board => Topic started by: Montague on January 10, 2011, 06:26:13 AM
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Could the infamous events of 1997’s Survivor Series have been orchestrated as one big work between Vince McMahon Jr. and Bret Hart?
In other words, was it an angle they both came up with and have kayfabed all this time playing everyone for fools?
I first entertained this possibility during my extremely brief indy tenure, at which time I learned all too well just how simplistic, naïve, and downright fukking stupid many wrestling fans still are.
Actually - to be fair - many people in general are this way, so…
Anyway…
In my mind, kayfabe officially died in 1997 - specifically, it died in the weeks following that year’s Survivor Series, during which Bret very openly and publicly complained about how his boss/promoter CHANGED THE AGREED UPON FINISH OF HIS TITLE MATCH.
It’s hard to be any more direct!
As a second-generation wrestler, Bret is an old-school worker, and a descendant of the even older school.
Bret has told the story of how when he & Neidhart were in the same bar as Tom & Davey, the teams would sit on opposite sides of the room to uphold kayfabe; even when they weren't feuding, and this was at a time when wrestlers were becoming rather lax in such practices.
Bret does not strike me as someone who would do what he did the way he did following Montreal, unless…he was supposed to.
Cactus Foley confirmed in his book that the old man had wanted to take his product in a different direction since the early 90’s, but in the midst of several high-profile scandals, had decided to postpone adopting the more mature edge into his programming.
As much as I hate to admit, Jim Hellwig (I still refuse to call a grown man “Warrior”) raised an excellent point: the cameras seemed to be in the perfect place WAY too many times during what transpired.
And another thing about those cameras: the fact that Vince allowed third-party cameras access to literally showcase the backstage operations for Bret’s documentary suggests that the old man wasn’t too concerned with exposure (“Beyond the Mat” would soon follow).
A short time later, Vince delivered this monologue on WWF programming:
With a lot of the angles he would soon run involving sex, firearms, kidnapping, necrophilia, etc., it seemed almost necessary to issue a disclaimer proclaiming, in no uncertain terms, that wrestling is just a fictional show.
Sure, there would always be simpletons who bought into the storylines, but at least the critics could no longer complain that the industry was trying to con the public into believing it is “real.”
This admission would also remove a lot of the “sting” out of watching wrestling; now it could be cool to watch.
I believe the ‘97 SS was designed as a cool, creative, compelling way for Vince Jr. to come clean and effectively wash his hands of the old guard.
It sure beat the hell out of coming on and saying, “Oh, by the way…you know the last fourteen years? I lied.”
This is just my opinion.
Weigh in with yours.
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It was a shoot, pure and simple.
Vince McMahon simply made the best of a bad situation. The controvery from the Montreal/Survivor Series Screw Job gave him a bump in the ratings. But, he still needed to follow up with it.
The interview with JR, as to what went down, actually helped too. McMahon didn't deny what he did. He simply put it all in context and said that he was responsible for taking care of the wrestlers that work for him, first and foremost.
That, I believe, saved the company. Plus, with Austin's growing popularity and a lack of main-event heels against whom he could pit Austin (Michaels, with a injured back, and Undertaker, who was locked with putting over Kane), the "Mr. McMahon" character was born.
As Triple H said, the company basically dropped the whole angle of Vince, just being a dorky, hyper-active face commentator and simply acknowledged what most already knew: That McMahon owned and ran the WWF.
"Mr. McMahon" would do anything to keep his superstars in line, INCLUDING SCREWING them out of the WWF title (or keeping them from winning it, in the first place).
Now, you had the Austin-McMahon feud, which was GOLDEN and helped WWF overtake WCW, after being dominated by "Billionaire Ted's" company for over a year and a half.
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Absolutely.
But, do you believe that the whole "screwjob" was pre-arranged between Bret & Vince?
In other words, Bret knew that his character would get screwed in the storylines, and they would play it out as a shoot?
We know that Vince planned that night's events, but he probably also planned the type of doors it would open and THAT'S WHY HE DID IT.
As for Bret, it brought him plenty of attention, too, and was probably meant to help him out.
Unfortunately, WCW didn't/couldn't do jack with him.
If this was a work between Bret & Vince, I also suspect that the two men planned to do business with it again down the line at some point.
Had it not been for the fallout from Owen's accident, it probably would have happened, too.
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I used to think it was a shoot. After reviewing it thoroughly I believe it was a very well played and calculated work. If you watch the movie "Wrestling with Shadows", don't you find it funny how the camara was in the right spot at the right time? And if a 245lb Bret really cracked Vince don't you think his jaw would have shattered not to mention the entourage of lawsuits that would have followed? Think about it. Over the years, many wrestlers who were there pretty much came forward and admitted that it was a work. It was believed then that Bret would come back to the WWE and they would use that work and heat that it drew for a good hot storyline. It would have happened but Bret suffered a bad concussion due to a very poor timed kick by a very green Goldberg. Then he suffered a legitamage stroke and thus retired. IMO, the only people that would take this seriously are the folk who actually believe that wrestling and its storylines are real.
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I used to think it was a shoot. After reviewing it thoroughly I believe it was a very well played and calculated work. If you watch the movie "Wrestling with Shadows", don't you find it funny how the camara was in the right spot at the right time? And if a 245lb Bret really cracked Vince don't you think his jaw would have shattered not to mention the entourage of lawsuits that would have followed? Think about it. Over the years, many wrestlers who were there pretty much came forward and admitted that it was a work. It was believed then that Bret would come back to the WWE and they would use that work and heat that it drew for a good hot storyline. It would have happened but Bret suffered a bad concussion due to a very poor timed kick by a very green Goldberg. Then he suffered a legitamage stroke and thus retired. IMO, the only people that would take this seriously are the folk who actually believe that wrestling and its storylines are real.
Exactly!
And, Vince could have sued over so much of what happened that night: assault, willful destruction of property, recording a conversation without the other party's consent (Bret "wears a wire").
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Exactly!
And, Vince could have sued over so much of what happened that night: assault, willful destruction of property, recording a conversation without the other party's consent (Bret "wears a wire").
Yes! The thing that did it for me was the camara being in the right place at the right time and the slew of wrestlers that came forward afterwards (some retired or fed up and moved on) that basically admitted it.
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I used to think it was a shoot. After reviewing it thoroughly I believe it was a very well played and calculated work. If you watch the movie "Wrestling with Shadows", don't you find it funny how the camara was in the right spot at the right time? And if a 245lb Bret really cracked Vince don't you think his jaw would have shattered not to mention the entourage of lawsuits that would have followed? Think about it. Over the years, many wrestlers who were there pretty much came forward and admitted that it was a work. It was believed then that Bret would come back to the WWE and they would use that work and heat that it drew for a good hot storyline. It would have happened but Bret suffered a bad concussion due to a very poor timed kick by a very green Goldberg. Then he suffered a legitamage stroke and thus retired. IMO, the only people that would take this seriously are the folk who actually believe that wrestling and its storylines are real.
Vince isn't exactly a midget, you know. One would think he can take a punch. Plus, I thought Bret hit him in the eye, anyway.
This wasn't a work. The other WWF wrestlers clearly stated as much, including Shawn Michaels. Remember the wrestlers that walked out of RAW the next week or two, after the Survivor Series Screwjob went town.
The main reason people are claiming that it's a work is because the way the WWF responded and regained its popularity, eclipsing WCW. That has more to do with McMahon's resolve, coupled with the bungling over at WCW.
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Very well done work.
Like you guys have covered the cameras being there was just too convenient. And if you are VKM, why in the hell would you let the company producing the documentary show that particular part of the backstage stuff? I have no doubt Vince had 100% control at the end of the day as to what the documentary could and couldn't show. He is WAY too smart not to.
Another point is that Vince and the WWF have shown no problem taking things to court when needed. Bret was "jumping ship" to the competitor, so if he had hit McMahon, why not drag him into court and just bury him for a few months?
It has just never added up over the years.
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I think if it was a work, it all would have fell apart when Owen died.
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I think if it was a work, it all would have fell apart when Owen died.
I'm not so sure. there really wasn't anything to be gained if Bret spoke up, if anything he would probably have looked worse in that scenario than VKM, who would probably just said "of course it was a work, it's pro wrestling" But who knows.
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I'm not so sure. there really wasn't anything to be gained if Bret spoke up, if anything he would probably have looked worse in that scenario than VKM, who would probably just said "of course it was a work, it's pro wrestling" But who knows.
That's true. On the flip side, if it was a work, Bret was probably furious that Owen was made to do a stupid stunt like that in the first place, and then legit bad blood between then came about. Everyone make a lot of good points, but in an industry where almost everyone talks about everything and anybody, I think if it was all a storyline it someone would have let it slip by now.
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Owen practiced the stunt the day before the event with Bulldog present and all went well. It was just an unfortunate accident. Owen willingly did it on his own reconisense.
The screwjob was a very well planned out and mastered work that obviously did its job by fooling everyone including myself at first. Wrestling is one giant STORLYLINE and that is it. If you fall for it then the wrestling world did its job. Its all conjured up.
When Bruiser Brody got stabbed to death in Puerto Rico after a show by a fellow wrestler, it was REAL. Lawsuits were involved including the testimony of many around. If Bret at 245lbs cracked Vince in the jaw for real, he would have hospitalized him very, very easily. Vince was pushing 50+ at the time. Don't tell me that he would have taken a punch and walked away with no security escorting him or police arresting Bret for assult and as I said before, the camara was convieniently in the right place ALL the time. What's to say that Vince didn't give both Shawn & Hart 250,000 a peice and say, "hey, go out there and do this and will get 'em good on this story." It opened the door for Bret on a return to the WWE to continue a program with Vince and Michaels but plans changed. Bret suffered a stroke and retired and Michaels mangled his back. It was a complete work, folks. If it wasn't, the impending lawsuits would have been higher than Mount Everest. Common sense. Here's another tidbit....Wrestling With Shadows...did you notice Michaels playing around the ring with Bret's kids prior to the show? Meanwhile they are supposed to have this major heat with eachother (granted they did have some backstage issues but not enough to ruin a show and cost WWE business). I wouldn't be surprised if Vince, Michaels and Hart went fishing a week later.
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Why would A&E be a part of it if it was a work? They aired it as a true documentary. I doubt they would have risked being known that way.
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Why would A&E be a part of it if it was a work? They aired it as a true documentary. I doubt they would have risked being known that way.
Maybe they were "worked" too.....VKM is a smart guy and you figure the people doing the documentary probably knew very little about pro wrestling and certainly would probably be duped by that good of a work. It just makes no sense that VKM would allow the cameras to capture that, no lawsuit and let Bret walk away to WCW. not how vince seems to operate.
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Maybe Vince felt bad about how it ended with a guy who worked for him for 14 years? ;D
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Maybe in 2016, we'll find out Vince has just finished paying out on the $20 million lifetime contract we all heard about. I tend to think it's a shoot, only because I can't imagine running an angle for 14 years when most feuds today last 6 weeks or less.
On the other hand, it did turn VKM into the biggest heel in the industry, and you know he loves being on TV.
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Maybe in 2016, we'll find out Vince has just finished paying out on the $20 million lifetime contract we all heard about. I tend to think it's a shoot, only because I can't imagine running an angle for 14 years when most feuds today last 6 weeks or less.
On the other hand, it did turn VKM into the biggest heel in the industry, and you know he loves being on TV.
The other thing is, he loves money. If it was a work, I think him and Bret would have "made up" years ago and cashed in. They only started back together in 2005 when they released his dvd.
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...in an industry where almost everyone talks about everything and anybody, I think if it was all a storyline it someone would have let it slip by now.
Not if literally no one else was in on it.
This may be the biggest work in history with only three people smart.
Truly a feather in the cap - especially for a guy who's already worth billions.
Really, what's left for him except a huge ego boost?
If this is a work, nobody will ever be able to top it, and Vince has that satisfaction, as well.
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Maybe they were "worked" too.....VKM is a smart guy and you figure the people doing the documentary probably knew very little about pro wrestling and certainly would probably be duped by that good of a work. It just makes no sense that VKM would allow the cameras to capture that, no lawsuit and let Bret walk away to WCW. not how vince seems to operate.
Working A&E is the only way that is possible. They would have too much to lose to be involved.
As someone said earlier, I think if it were a work, word would have leaked by now.
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Not if literally no one else was in on it.
This may be the biggest work in history with only three people smart.
Truly a feather in the cap - especially for a guy who's already worth billions.
Really, what's left for him except a huge ego boost?
If this is a work, nobody will ever be able to top it, and Vince has that satisfaction, as well.
Also, in pro wrestling you plant the seed today for the fued tomorrow. For example....with Ultimate Warrior, they hired him in 1987 and already knew that by 1990 he would be the world champ supposedly to carry the torch from Hogan who was looking to take a small sabatical to make a movie. That is how it works. Extreme storylines are kept HUSH. That is the only way it will work.
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Here....maybe this will help understand the art of "Kayfabe" (staged):
In 1982, Lawler began a notorious feud with comedian Andy Kaufman.[2] At the time, Kaufman wrestled women as part of his skits and had declared himself the Intergender Heavyweight Champion.[2] On April 5, Lawler, who had taken exception to the skits, wrestled Kaufman in Memphis.[2] During the course of the match, Lawler delivered two piledrivers to his opponent, sending him to the hospital.[2] On July 29, Lawler slapped Kaufman in the face on an episode of Late Night with David Letterman.[2][4] Kaufman responded by throwing his coffee on Lawler.[2] Everyone including the high ups in the wrestling world believed that this was a real legitamate shoot when in face its was NOT.Years later, Lawler appeared as himself in the Kaufman biopic Man on the Moon; the movie revealed that Lawler's feud with Kaufman had been kayfabe (staged). Lawler later revealed that not only was his entire feud with Kaufman staged, but the two were actually very good friends.
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Here....maybe this will help understand the art of "Kayfabe" (staged):
In 1982, Lawler began a notorious feud with comedian Andy Kaufman.[2] At the time, Kaufman wrestled women as part of his skits and had declared himself the Intergender Heavyweight Champion.[2] On April 5, Lawler, who had taken exception to the skits, wrestled Kaufman in Memphis.[2] During the course of the match, Lawler delivered two piledrivers to his opponent, sending him to the hospital.[2] On July 29, Lawler slapped Kaufman in the face on an episode of Late Night with David Letterman.[2][4] Kaufman responded by throwing his coffee on Lawler.[2] Everyone including the high ups in the wrestling world believed that this was a real legitamate shoot when in face its was NOT.Years later, Lawler appeared as himself in the Kaufman biopic Man on the Moon; the movie revealed that Lawler's feud with Kaufman had been kayfabe (staged). Lawler later revealed that not only was his entire feud with Kaufman staged, but the two were actually very good friends.
That's a great example.
I suspect that many folks today - even the smart ones - don't realize that that whole thing was worked.
I didn't follow MCW, Lawler, or Kaufman at the time.
I have, however, seen plenty of clips in documentaries, etc. over the years.
While the promos & ring work looked staged, I'll admit that the Letterman appearance had an air of authenticism/legitimacy to it and popped nicely.
I can understand people buying it.
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That's a great example.
I suspect that many folks today - even the smart ones - don't realize that that whole thing was worked.
I didn't follow MCW, Lawler, or Kaufman at the time.
I have, however, seen plenty of clips in documentaries, etc. over the years.
While the promos & ring work looked staged, I'll admit that the Letterman appearance had an air of authenticism/legitimacy to it and popped nicely.
I can understand people buying it.
Problem is people believe everything they hear without realizing that the whole time, it was orchastrated between the wrestlers and the promotor the whole time.
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Absolutely.
But, do you believe that the whole "screwjob" was pre-arranged between Bret & Vince?
In other words, Bret knew that his character would get screwed in the storylines, and they would play it out as a shoot?
No!
Keep in mind why it was done in the first place: To make sure Bret Hart didn't leave Survivor Series with the title, so that Eric Bischoff couldn't go on Nitro and claim he bought the WWF Champion.
We know that Vince planned that night's events, but he probably also planned the type of doors it would open and THAT'S WHY HE DID IT.
As for Bret, it brought him plenty of attention, too, and was probably meant to help him out.
Unfortunately, WCW didn't/couldn't do jack with him.
This is all hindsight speculation. No one knew that the Mr. McMahon character would take on a life of its own, or that Austin would blow up the way he did. Again, the controversy offered a boost in the ratings. McMahon just went with it. Helmsley has stated, more than once, that McMahon has a tendency of squashing potentially good ideas. But, when they start taking a life of their own, he'll eventually just go with it. That's what he did with DX, which he didn't like initially.
If this was a work between Bret & Vince, I also suspect that the two men planned to do business with it again down the line at some point.
Had it not been for the fallout from Owen's accident, it probably would have happened, too.
Try 12 or 13 years, if you don't count the Hall of Fame ceremony in 2006 (and Hart didn't show up at WrestleMania 22, when they introduced all the HOF entries.
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No!
Keep in mind why it was done in the first place: To make sure Bret Hart didn't leave Survivor Series with the title, so that Eric Bischoff couldn't go on Nitro and claim he bought the WWF Champion.
This is all hindsight speculation. No one knew that the Mr. McMahon character would take on a life of its own, or that Austin would blow up the way he did. Again, the controversy offered a boost in the ratings. McMahon just went with it. Helmsley has stated, more than once, that McMahon has a tendency of squashing potentially good ideas. But, when they start taking a life of their own, he'll eventually just go with it. That's what he did with DX, which he didn't like initially.
Try 12 or 13 years, if you don't count the Hall of Fame ceremony in 2006 (and Hart didn't show up at WrestleMania 22, when they introduced all the HOF entries.
Re-read your post, champ. You are BELIEVING in the storyline. Its all KAYFABE. Make belief! NOT REAL.
As for your last line, like all other sports / business if the money is right you do it. If not, you don't.
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This is all hindsight speculation.
Of course.
The same can be said for both/any sides of the debate.
The only three people who know for absolute certain - either way - are Vince, Shawn, and Bret.
There may be others, but these people are the only ones of whom we know for sure.
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Of course.
The same can be said for both/any sides of the debate.
The only three people who know for absolute certain - either way - are Vince, Shawn, and Bret.
There may be others, but these people are the only ones of whom we know for sure.
And I guarantee you they all went on a fishing trip together after the fact and said, "We got them good!".
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Re-read your post, champ. You are BELIEVING in the storyline. Its all KAYFABE. Make belief! NOT REAL.
The Survivor Series screwjob wasn't part of a "storyline". Bret Hart and the entire Hart family would attest to that.
The only reason people like you are screaming that it was kayfabe was because McMahon somehow turned the lowest point of his company around and brought the WWF back to the top.
We know Bret didn't like losing in Canada. At the time, he loathed Shawn Michaels. Asking him to drop the title to Michaels in Canada was more than Bret Hart's ego could bear.
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And I guarantee you they all went on a fishing trip together after the fact and said, "We got them good!".
I don't know...
I think if it was a work, then they went 100% old-school and kayfabed 24/7.
That's the only way it would work, and it's how I would wholeheartedly expect them to do it.
It's not hard to imagine, either.
Hell, look how many guys for how many years kayfabed their own families.
We used to joke that David Sammartino would have faired better in WWF had Bruno smartened him up, first!
;D
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The Survivor Series screwjob wasn't part of a "storyline". Bret Hart and the entire Hart family would attest to that.
The only reason people like you are screaming that it was kayfabe was because McMahon somehow turned the lowest point of his company around and brought the WWF back to the top.
We know Bret didn't like losing in Canada. At the time, he loathed Shawn Michaels. Asking him to drop the title to Michaels in Canada was more than Bret Hart's ego could bear.
First off, wrestling is all staged. Secondly, it works two ways. Shawn didn't want to retrn the job to hart either at WM13. He faked a knee injury instead which he openly admitted years after the fact. Thirdly, Vince didn't turn his company around. It was The Undertaker, Austin and the Rock's popularity combined with Eric Bishoff giving away the RAW results which resulted in WWE's ratings going up once people found out Foley was winning the title. More importantly as I said before, the impending lawsuits would have be ludacris had this been "real". There would have been assult charges, breach of contract, negligance, etc not to mention chaos backstage. You would have had a CEO with hospitalized with the side of his face caved in and funny part is, no one saw Vince "being hit".
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First off, wrestling is all staged. Secondly, it works two ways. Shawn didn't want to retrn the job to hart either at WM13. He faked a knee injury instead which he openly admitted years after the fact. Thirdly, Vince didn't turn his company around. It was The Undertaker, Austin and the Rock's popularity combined with Eric Bishoff giving away the RAW results which resulted in WWE's ratings going up once people found out Foley was winning the title. More importantly as I said before, the impending lawsuits would have be ludacris had this been "real". There would have been assult charges, breach of contract, negligance, etc not to mention chaos backstage. You would have had a CEO with hospitalized with the side of his face caved in and funny part is, no one saw Vince "being hit".
Listen to what you just said. Undertaker has been with WWE for 8 years. And he was there, when WWE was getting KILLED by WCW. Yes, he did keep the company afloat, especially by putting over Kane. That rivalry drew interest in WWE.
Austin's popularity? Guess who Austin's main foil was in late '97 and '98? "Mr. McMahon", the hyper-active characterization of Vince McMahon, based on (you guessed it) the Survivor Series Screwjob.
And for his face being caved in, you act as if Vince McMahon is a midget. He's a large man, himself. And, why would Vince need to sue. The deal was done with WCW. Bret was leaving; and, at the end of the day, Vince made sure that Bret didn't leave with his belt and that Eric Bischoff didn't go on Nitro and announce that he just bought the then-WWF Champion.
On top of that, Bischoff was giving away the taped RAW results for two years. By the time, he had Tony Schiavone announce that Mankind was going to win the WWF title, WWF had already surpassed WCW in the ratings.
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Listen to what you just said. Undertaker has been with WWE for 8 years. And he was there, when WWE was getting KILLED by WCW. Yes, he did keep the company afloat, especially by putting over Kane. That rivalry drew interest in WWE.
Austin's popularity? Guess who Austin's main foil was in late '97 and '98? "Mr. McMahon", the hyper-active characterization of Vince McMahon, based on (you guessed it) the Survivor Series Screwjob.
And for his face being caved in, you act as if Vince McMahon is a midget. He's a large man, himself. And, why would Vince need to sue. The deal was done with WCW. Bret was leaving; and, at the end of the day, Vince made sure that Bret didn't leave with his belt and that Eric Bischoff didn't go on Nitro and announce that he just bought the then-WWF Champion.
On top of that, Bischoff was giving away the taped RAW results for two years. By the time, he had Tony Schiavone announce that Mankind was going to win the WWF title, WWF had already surpassed WCW in the ratings.
1. Undertaker has been with the WWE for 20 years. He started in Nov 1990 at SS and we are now in 2011. That equates to 20 yrs. Not 8.
2. Bishoff was giving Raw results away for only 4 weeks before it was the result that Mankind was winning the title unexpectedly off the Rock on Raw which drew peoples interest as they wanted to see Foley win his first title. That is what brought the ratings back the WWE along with the boom of the attitude era.
3. Undertaker NEVER put Kane over. To put someone over means you lose to them in a clean pinfall. This never happened. Undertaker defeated Kane at their WM match and again a month later at the next PPV in an inferno match. In their series of house matches Kane was disqualified.
Now here's a repost to help you understand the art of Kayfabe (staged product).
Ok...i'll repost for you "wrestling expert"
Here....maybe this will help understand the art of "Kayfabe" (staged):
In 1982, Lawler began a notorious feud with comedian Andy Kaufman.[2] At the time, Kaufman wrestled women as part of his skits and had declared himself the Intergender Heavyweight Champion.[2] On April 5, Lawler, who had taken exception to the skits, wrestled Kaufman in Memphis.[2] During the course of the match, Lawler delivered two piledrivers to his opponent, sending him to the hospital.[2] On July 29, Lawler slapped Kaufman in the face on an episode of Late Night with David Letterman.[2][4] Kaufman responded by throwing his coffee on Lawler.[2] Everyone including the high ups in the wrestling world believed that this was a real legitamate shoot when in face its was NOT.Years later, Lawler appeared as himself in the Kaufman biopic Man on the Moon; the movie revealed that Lawler's feud with Kaufman had been kayfabe (staged). Lawler later revealed that not only was his entire feud with Kaufman staged, but the two were actually very good friends
The same water holds for the screwjob, the same water holds for the Mr.McMahon charactor. Its an act! Not real! Vince capitalized on his "heat" reaction from the crowd from the "screwjob" and turned it into a money making saga. Just like the heat between Hart & Michaels backstage when they got into a fight(s) and disagreements Vince turned it into a money making fued. Same deal with Edge & Matt Hardy over Lita's affections. Vince turned it into a money making fued and it was one of the better fueds and one of Matt Hardy's better performances in their series of matches. It draws more viewers. Vince is a genius for that.
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1. Undertaker has been with the WWE for 20 years. He started in Nov 1990 at SS and we are now in 2011. That equates to 20 yrs. Not 8.
I was referring Undertaker's working with Kane in 1998. At that point, he'd been with WWE for about 8 years. I know when 'Taker debuted with WWE. I saw it live on PPV and taped it (the 1990 Survivor Series).
2. Bishoff was giving Raw results away for only 4 weeks before it was the result that Mankind was winning the title unexpectedly off the Rock on Raw which drew peoples interest as they wanted to see Foley win his first title. That is what brought the ratings back the WWE along with the boom of the attitude era.
Not quite. In '96, Bischoff started doing that (and he may have started earlier than that). In particular, I recall when he gave away the results of a match between Vader and Fatu.
3. Undertaker NEVER put Kane over. To put someone over means you lose to them in a clean pinfall. This never happened. Undertaker defeated Kane at their WM match and again a month later at the next PPV in an inferno match. In their series of house matches Kane was disqualified.
Putting someone over means you establish them as being legitimate, at (or near) the same level as yourself. Plus, Kane beat Undertaker on Raw to become the #1 Contender for the WWE title (hence, the "First Blood" match he has with Austin at the '98 King of the Ring. Kane won the title, only to lose it back to Austin the next night on RAW).
Further proof that putting someone over doesn't necessitate that someone beating you is AUSTIN, himself. How did Austin get established as a star? It was with his feud with Bret Hart. In case you forgot, Austin LOST most of his matches to Bret Hart, starting at the '96 Survivor Series. The match that really put Austin over was the "Submission Match" at WrestleMania 13, which we all know Austin also LOST.
Now here's a repost to help you understand the art of Kayfabe (staged product).
Ok...i'll repost for you "wrestling expert"
Here....maybe this will help understand the art of "Kayfabe" (staged):
In 1982, Lawler began a notorious feud with comedian Andy Kaufman.[2] At the time, Kaufman wrestled women as part of his skits and had declared himself the Intergender Heavyweight Champion.[2] On April 5, Lawler, who had taken exception to the skits, wrestled Kaufman in Memphis.[2] During the course of the match, Lawler delivered two piledrivers to his opponent, sending him to the hospital.[2] On July 29, Lawler slapped Kaufman in the face on an episode of Late Night with David Letterman.[2][4] Kaufman responded by throwing his coffee on Lawler.[2] Everyone including the high ups in the wrestling world believed that this was a real legitamate shoot when in face its was NOT.Years later, Lawler appeared as himself in the Kaufman biopic Man on the Moon; the movie revealed that Lawler's feud with Kaufman had been kayfabe (staged). Lawler later revealed that not only was his entire feud with Kaufman staged, but the two were actually very good friends
The same water holds for the screwjob, the same water holds for the Mr.McMahon charactor. Its an act! Not real! Vince capitalized on his "heat" reaction from the crowd from the "screwjob" and turned it into a money making saga. Just like the heat between Hart & Michaels backstage when they got into a fight(s) and disagreements Vince turned it into a money making fued. Same deal with Edge & Matt Hardy over Lita's affections. Vince turned it into a money making fued and it was one of the better fueds and one of Matt Hardy's better performances in their series of matches. It draws more viewers. Vince is a genius for that.
One, Lawler's feud with Kauffman has zilch to do with the Survivor Series Screwjob. This incident almost ripped the company apart. And this is coming from the wrestlers. Remember that many of them DID NOT SHOW UP on Raw the next night or the week after that, based on what happened. There was legitimate dissent among the ranks. What, in my estimation, saved the company was Vince's actually telling the truth of what he did and why.
His job was to take care of his wrestlers, first and foremost. Bret Hart didn't want to job to Michaels in Canada, simple as that. Vince wasn't going to risk having Eric Bischoff brag about buying the WWF champion on Nitro. As I said some time ago, come hell or high water, Bret Hart was NOT leaving Survivor Series as champion, period.
Even with the "heat" from SS '97, it was still six months, at least, before RAW finally surpassed Nitro. And much of that was built off the heat of the "Mr. McMahon" character (based on the SS Screwjob) who would stoop to screwing Austin out of the WWF title (as he actually did with Bret Hart).
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I'm still in no way buying that A&E was allowed to air the footage, access to everything, etc... without vkm having final say and letting them air it. To me, that is the biggest factor to weigh. If it was a legit "screwjob" why would he allow that? Not to mention no lawsuit to slow Bret down from going to WCW, etc...
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This incident almost ripped the company apart. And this is coming from the wrestlers. Remember that many of them DID NOT SHOW UP on Raw the next night or the week after that, based on what happened. There was legitimate dissent among the ranks.
You can't use that fact to gauge the legitimacy of the events if Vince, Bret, and HBK were the only ones in on the angle.
If the boycotting wrestlers were not in on it, then of course they would react as though it was real because they didn't know any better.
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You can't use that fact to gauge the legitimacy of the events if Vince, Bret, and HBK were the only ones in on the angle.
If the boycotting wrestlers were not in on it, then of course they would react as though it was real because they didn't know any better.
Bret Hart and Vince McMahon had been butting heads about the direction of the company and the storylines. Remember the Goldust-Marc Mero feud? It started with the lesbian angle of Marlena (Terri Runnels) looking Sable up and down and licking her lips, while Sable was ringside, cheering for Marc Mero.
The storyline was that Marlena wanted Sable as her "pet". So, she charms Goldust to take out Mero, in order to have Sable for herself. Apparently, The Hitman wasn't cool with that; so, it was changed to Goldust wanting Sable instead. That's just one example.
The last thing McMahon wanted was to lose a top superstar to WCW.....well...except for the Ultimate Warrior. And with Bret's family (Bulldog, Neidhart, Owen) there, the odds of this being a work decreases further. Plus, there was the issue of Owen wanting to leave as well.
The screwjob was about one thing: Making sure Bret didn't leave with the WWF title and Bischoff didn't get on the air and announce he'd bought the WWF Champion.
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I'm still in no way buying that A&E was allowed to air the footage, access to everything, etc... without vkm having final say and letting them air it. To me, that is the biggest factor to weigh. If it was a legit "screwjob" why would he allow that? Not to mention no lawsuit to slow Bret down from going to WCW, etc...
Bullseye and that is what people need to understand!! I see Mcway has been clearly FOOLED into believing the storyline.
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Bret Hart and Vince McMahon had been butting heads about the direction of the company and the storylines. Remember the Goldust-Marc Mero feud? It started with the lesbian angle of Marlena (Terri Runnels) looking Sable up and down and licking her lips, while Sable was ringside, cheering for Marc Mero.
The storyline was that Marlena wanted Sable as her "pet". So, she charms Goldust to take out Mero, in order to have Sable for herself. Apparently, The Hitman wasn't cool with that; so, it was changed to Goldust wanting Sable instead. That's just one example.
The last thing McMahon wanted was to lose a top superstar to WCW.....well...except for the Ultimate Warrior. And with Bret's family (Bulldog, Neidhart, Owen) there, the odds of this being a work decreases further. Plus, there was the issue of Owen wanting to leave as well.
The screwjob was about one thing: Making sure Bret didn't leave with the WWF title and Bischoff didn't get on the air and announce he'd bought the WWF Champion.
You keep believing that, champ. Later on, call me and i'll introduce you to Santa ;) ::)
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There are lots of indications that point to this going either way, and some of them are quite convincing.
For every fact that suggests it was a shoot, there’s another that convinces you that it "had" to be a work.
Many points on both sides are worthy of consideration; some you cannot deny.
None of us here are qualified to draw any type of ABSOLUTE conclusions.
There are people who know for sure what went down that day.
The rest of us rely on conjecture.
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There are lots of indications that point to this going either way, and some of them are quite convincing.
For every fact that suggests it was a shoot, there’s another that convinces you that it "had" to be a work.
Many points on both sides are worthy of consideration; some you cannot deny.
None of us here are qualified to draw any type of ABSOLUTE conclusions.
There are people who know for sure what went down that day.
The rest of us rely on conjecture.
My take is that the only (or primary) reason some folks here think it's a work is because the WWF somehow rebounded to overtake WCW.
As stated earlier, the controversy from the Survivor Series Screwjob is the genesis for the "Mr. McMahon" character. That's why the feud with Austin had such teeth to it. McMahon actually screwed someone (Hart) out of the WWF title.
You keep believing that, champ. Later on, call me and i'll introduce you to Santa ;) ::)
Yea. McMahon was just dying to get rid of Bret Hart. "Here, WCW, have another one of my superstars!!" ::)
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My take is that the only (or primary) reason some folks here think it's a work is because the WWF somehow rebounded to overtake WCW.
As stated earlier, the controversy from the Survivor Series Screwjob is the genesis for the "Mr. McMahon" character. That's why the feud with Austin had such teeth to it. McMahon actually screwed someone (Hart) out of the WWF title.
Yea. McMahon was just dying to get rid of Bret Hart. "Here, WCW, have another one of my superstars!!" ::)
Wrong yet again, champ. McMahon TOLD Bret that he had to back out of their 20yr deal that would see Bret retire in WWE. He told him to take the contract with WCW which opened the doors for a return at a later date.
Its just a discussion. No money out of mine or anyone else's wallet for that matter, champ. In the end its all opinion.
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Wrong yet again, champ. McMahon TOLD Bret that he had to back out of their 20yr deal that would see Bret retire in WWE. He told him to take the contract with WCW which opened the doors for a return at a later date.
Its just a discussion. No money out of mine or anyone else's wallet for that matter, champ. In the end its all opinion.
I get that. McMahon said that during his interview with JR, after Survivor Series.
Bret sold out....and it's not a big deal, because I helped him do it. As I said, the issue wasn't Bret's leaving, per se. It was Bret's leaving as WWF CHAMPION and Bischoff spilling the beans on Nitro, while Bret still had the belt. (McMahon already got embarrased once with the Alundra Blayze/Madusa Micelli routine, throwing the WWF Women's title in the trash on Nitro, two years earlier).
Remember McMahon's speech about the "time-honored tradition" in the wrestling business. That was basically wrestling-ese for "when you leave the company, you drop the belt". The problem, once again, is that Bret had to drop the belt in Canada to Shawn Michaels. He wanted to either just surrender the belt or, at worst, job to Michaels on RAW in the United States.
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I get that. McMahon said that during his interview with JR, after Survivor Series.
Bret sold out....and it's not a big deal, because I helped him do it. As I said, the issue wasn't Bret's leaving, per se. It was Bret's leaving as WWF CHAMPION and Bischoff spilling the beans on Nitro, while Bret still had the belt. (McMahon already got embarrased once with the Alundra Blayze/Madusa Micelli routine, throwing the WWF Women's title in the trash on Nitro, two years earlier).
Remember McMahon's speech about the "time-honored tradition" in the wrestling business. That was basically wrestling-ese for "when you leave the company, you drop the belt". The problem, once again, is that Bret had to drop the belt in Canada to Shawn Michaels. He wanted to either just surrender the belt or, at worst, job to Michaels on RAW in the United States.
And again, the reason Bret didn't want to lose the title was because Michaels REFUSED to return the job to Bret after their big 1 hour iron man match. The plan was for Michael's to return the favor to Hart at the next WM which he flat out refused. He faked a knee injury instead to get out of it which has been attested for by many in the business. Even WM14 when Michaels lost the title to Austin, at first he refused. It was only because the Undertaker went up to Michaels, sat him down and threatened to beat him to a living pulp that Michaels did what he was told.
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And again, the reason Bret didn't want to lose the title was because Michaels REFUSED to return the job to Bret after their big 1 hour iron man match. The plan was for Michael's to return the favor to Hart at the next WM which he flat out refused. He faked a knee injury instead to get out of it which has been attested for by many in the business. Even WM14 when Michaels lost the title to Austin, at first he refused. It was only because the Undertaker went up to Michaels, sat him down and threatened to beat him to a living pulp that Michaels did what he was told.
Michaels had a busted-up back. And, there wasn't a soul in that building in Boston who thought Michaels was going to retain the title. Austin beating Michaels for the strap was a mere formality, especially in the 90s. The formula was simple: Heel champ + face challenger = NEW CHAMPION CROWNED.
As for Bret Hart, I'm not disagreeing with the aspect of his not wanting to job to Michaels. I've pointed that out myself. But, as bad as that was, Bret would have done it anyway, had it been in the USA. But jobbing to Michaels in CANADA was just too much for his pride/ego to bear.
With Bischoff licking his chops to spill the beans on Nitro, there's no way Vince McMahon was going to let Bret Hart leave Montreal as champion. But, Survivor Series was SOLD OUT, in anticipation of this match. Hart ain't doing the match, if he has to lose the title to Michaels.
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Michaels had a busted-up back. And, there wasn't a soul in that building in Boston who thought Michaels was going to retain the title. Austin beating Michaels for the strap was a mere formality, especially in the 90s. The formula was simple: Heel champ + face challenger = NEW CHAMPION CROWNED.
As for Bret Hart, I'm not disagreeing with the aspect of his not wanting to job to Michaels. I've pointed that out myself. But, as bad as that was, Bret would have done it anyway, had it been in the USA. But jobbing to Michaels in CANADA was just too much for his pride/ego to bear.
With Bischoff licking his chops to spill the beans on Nitro, there's no way Vince McMahon was going to let Bret Hart leave Montreal as champion. But, Survivor Series was SOLD OUT, in anticipation of this match. Hart ain't doing the match, if he has to lose the title to Michaels.
The anti-american storyline was only a storyline. Have a beer Mcway. Your taking this a tad to seriously.
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The anti-american storyline was only a storyline. Have a beer Mcway. Your taking this a tad to seriously.
One, I don't drink.
Two, this is an interesting discussion.
Three, I'm not talking about the anti-American storyline. Bret simply did not want to lose the belt to Michaels in Canada. It's just that simple.
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One, I don't drink.
Two, this is an interesting discussion.
Three, I'm not talking about the anti-American storyline. Bret simply did not want to lose the belt to Michaels in Canada. It's just that simple.
Outed right there.
And Bret not wanting to lose was already explained. Corona;s are on sale for 35 bucks a case. You need a whole case.
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MCWAY, your arguments are lucid and I've read a lot of posts of yours and you seem like a good guy. But I just think you are getting worked here.
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MCWAY, your arguments are lucid and I've read a lot of posts of yours and you seem like a good guy. But I just think you are getting worked here.
Nope. Just engaging in a topic that's still being debated, over 13 years later.
Outed right there.
And Bret not wanting to lose was already explained. Corona;s are on sale for 35 bucks a case. You need a whole case.
Your explanation is rather flimsy. Hart's not wanting to lose to Michaels in Canada had nothing to do with the Anti-American angle.
It has everything to do with his loathing of Michaels, at the time.
Sorry to disappoint you! McWay loves the ladies, particularly the one I married and with whom I have a bouncing baby boy.
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This is a very good topic of debate/discussion.
I'll sticky it for a week or so to see if any casual or occasional browsers to this forum catch it & wish to chime in.
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Nope. Just engaging in a topic that's still being debated, over 13 years later.
Your explanation is rather flimsy. Hart's not wanting to lose to Michaels in Canada had nothing to do with the Anti-American angle.
It has everything to do with his loathing of Michaels, at the time.
Sorry to disappoint you! McWay loves the ladies, particularly the one I married and with whom I have a bouncing baby boy.
Not at all. been watching vividly for twenty plus years and I have sources that work for WWE. Thanks and congrats on your baby boy.
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I'm not sure either way, and I doubt we'll ever know. My opinion on a few points though:
- If it was a work, I can't see them leaving it for such a length of time before bringing it back into the storyline. Why not do it for Bret's HOF induction instead?
- Bret punching Vince and there being no lawsuit doesn't really hit me as being evidence either way. Who was there when it happened? And what was stopping Bret from claiming Vince laid hands on him first? Also, Vince could have initially decided to take legal action, then thought about it, and realised that this could be the perfect opportunity to take the company to the next level. A lawsuit would drag out, cost him time and money, and maybe he just couldn't be bothered?
- One thing that makes me think it's more likely to be a shoot, is that the repercussions could so easily have gone the other way. If WCW/Bret had played it better when he went over, they could have been the ones to make that step, instead of the birth of 'Mr McMahon'. Vince would have known that, and wouldn't have willfully handed over a golden opportunity like that.
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That's true. On the flip side, if it was a work, Bret was probably furious that Owen was made to do a stupid stunt like that in the first place, and then legit bad blood between then came about. Everyone make a lot of good points, but in an industry where almost everyone talks about everything and anybody, I think if it was all a storyline it someone would have let it slip by now.
Didn't Owen's widow claim that McMahon made Owen be the Blue Blazer again, because he wouldn't do a storyline with his having a love affair with Debra, to split up the Jeff Jarrett & Owen Hart tag team?
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Didn't Owen's widow claim that McMahon made Owen be the Blue Blazer again, because he wouldn't do a storyline with his having a love affair with Debra, to split up the Jeff Jarrett & Owen Hart tag team?
Interesting...I never heard that but often wondered why Owen was resorted to the "b Blue Blazer" gimmick.
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In general terms, Bret has stated that Owen despised the raunchy content of the show, and it was agreed that he would resurrect the Blazer gimmick as a hokey, yet effective way, to avoid engaging in the sleezy angles.
I've never heard Bret go into any specifics of those angles, but the above is certainly believable.
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In general terms, Bret has stated that Owen despised the raunchy content of the show, and it was agreed that he would resurrect the Blazer gimmick as a hokey, yet effective way, to avoid engaging in the sleezy angles.
I've never heard Bret go into any specifics of those angles, but the above is certainly believable.
One claim is that Owen was to wrestle in a match with Goldust, in which Goldust put his hands down Owen's trunks.
Owen (and Bret) took issues with a number of the storylines, even those that didn't involve them (an example of which was the aforementioned lesbian angle with Marlena and Sable, to promote a Goldust-Marc Mero feud).
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One claim is that Owen was to wrestle in a match with Goldust, in which Goldust put his hands down Owen's trunks.
Owen (and Bret) took issues with a number of the storylines, even those that didn't involve them (an example of which was the aforementioned lesbian angle with Marlena and Sable, to promote a Goldust-Marc Mero feud).
Scott Hall refused to do this angle as well. Hell, I would refuse it too. Can you imagine Dunstin with his hands on your cock???
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Scott Hall refused to do this angle as well. Hell, I would refuse it too. Can you imagine Dunstin with his hands on your cock???
I remember the match at the 1996 Royal Rumble. Goldust felt up Razor, during parts of the match.
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Not being an ass, but I wonder if Hall or Owen could have filed a "sexual harassment" type of lawsuit over that......or at the very least a hostile work environment one.
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Not being an ass, but I wonder if Hall or Owen could have filed a "sexual harassment" type of lawsuit over that......or at the very least a hostile work environment one.
They get whacked with chairs for a living. It doesn't get much more hostile than that.
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They get whacked with chairs for a living. It doesn't get much more hostile than that.
haha....I'm thinking more along the lines of being told "or else" involving being groped sexually by another employee. Would have been an interesting case/trial. Sure Vince would say it just like an actor in a movie.
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They get whacked with chairs for a living. It doesn't get much more hostile than that.
Not anymore. PG
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Not anymore. PG
They still get whacked with chairs, just not in the noggan anymore. Case in point, the Bret Hart-Mr. McMahon match at WrestleMania 26.
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I can remember the ECW fans booing (I'm being nice) Lance Storm for delivering a "soft" chairshot to RVD during a match.
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They still get whacked with chairs, just not in the noggan anymore. Case in point, the Bret Hart-Mr. McMahon match at WrestleMania 26.
Yes but the chair shots are not nearly as hard and with full force as they were back in 1998-2005 prior to the Benoit bullshit. I laugh at the way chair shots are done now. I 5 year old could take one and walk away.
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Yes but the chair shots are not nearly as hard and with full force as they were back in 1998-2005 prior to the Benoit bullshit. I laugh at the way chair shots are done now. I 5 year old could take one and walk away.
This always happens when some major injury or controversy happens. Notice that WWE eased off the piledrivers, after Austin's accident in 1997. Even the Undertaker had to scale back the Tombstone Piledriver and scrapped it for a while, during his biker gimmick years.
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Interesting...I never heard that but often wondered why Owen was resorted to the "b Blue Blazer" gimmick.
Owen didn't even want his kids to even THINK that Daddy was cheating on Mommy. He drew the line there. Bret said that Owen would do goofy gimmicks all day, if it meant not doing the sleazy stuff. Hence, he ended up being the Blue Blazer again (also as a jab at Hulk Hogan and Sting).
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Owen didn't even want his kids to even THINK that Daddy was cheating on Mommy. He drew the line there. Bret said that Owen would do goofy gimmicks all day, if it meant not doing the sleazy stuff. Hence, he ended up being the Blue Blazer again (also as a jab at Hulk Hogan and Sting).
He also wanted to join the fire dept and wanted to quit wrestling period. He was a family man 100% and didn't like too much time away from home. He got rejected by the fire dept and came back to wrestling full time and not long after, he died. Sad story.
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Owen didn't even want his kids to even THINK that Daddy was cheating on Mommy. He drew the line there. Bret said that Owen would do goofy gimmicks all day, if it meant not doing the sleazy stuff. Hence, he ended up being the Blue Blazer again (also as a jab at Hulk Hogan and Sting).
Speaking of Owen and Sting...
Did anyone else notice that immediately after Owen's accident, WCW stopped Sting's rafter-descent gimmick?
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Speaking of Owen and Sting...
Did anyone else notice that immediately after Owen's accident, WCW stopped Sting's rafter-descent gimmick?
I remember on outdoor Nitro when Sting came down into the ring from a helicopter on a cable similar to Owens. That was nuts.
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Speaking of Owen and Sting...
Did anyone else notice that immediately after Owen's accident, WCW stopped Sting's rafter-descent gimmick?
Sure do. That was of course a decision they made to stop doing it.
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Sure do. That was of course a decision they made to stop doing it.
Whats really sad it that the man died for a 25 cent piece that failed on the cable....wow....
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Whats really sad it that the man died for a 25 cent piece that failed on the cable....wow....
I know, crazy huh? And it had been checked that day, if I remember correctly. i've always believed that when your time is up, it's up....just the strange way people die sometimes makes me believe that. And also the times when by all accounts someone should have died, but they don't.
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I know, crazy huh? And it had been checked that day, if I remember correctly. i've always believed that when your time is up, it's up....just the strange way people die sometimes makes me believe that. And also the times when by all accounts someone should have died, but they don't.
From what i've heard, Davey tried to talk Owen out of it but Owen insisted on doing it. Very sad.
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From what i've heard, Davey tried to talk Owen out of it but Owen insisted on doing it. Very sad.
Very sad. I was watching the event live on PPV with some buddies. And at first, just like everybody else watching on TV, we thought it was a work......that was just a gut dropping thing to happen.
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Very sad. I was watching the event live on PPV with some buddies. And at first, just like everybody else watching on TV, we thought it was a work......that was just a gut dropping thing to happen.
I was too. I remember the Blue Blazer interview and as his music blared the camara was starting to focus on the rafters then all of a sudden it went blank for about 1 minute then when it returned, it showed a serious look on Jerry Lawler's face and JR was trying to slowly explain what happened to the millions of viewers.
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I was too. I remember the Blue Blazer interview and as his music blared the camara was starting to focus on the rafters then all of a sudden it went blank for about 1 minute then when it returned, it showed a serious look on Jerry Lawler's face and JR was trying to slowly explain what happened to the millions of viewers.
I actually have it on an old VHS tape. And you could just tell that the wrestlers were all kinda messed up after that.
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I actually have it on an old VHS tape. And you could just tell that the wrestlers were all kinda messed up after that.
Jeff Jarrett took it really bad. He actually left WWE at that point because he couldn't cope with it.
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Jeff Jarrett took it really bad. He actually left WWE at that point because he couldn't cope with it.
I think he was on right after the incident and he couldn't finish his promo. That had to be so tough on those guys to work the rest of the show. I do however understand to a degree why VKM went on with the show. That had to be the toughest call of his career.
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I think he was on right after the incident and he couldn't finish his promo. That had to be so tough on those guys to work the rest of the show. I do however understand to a degree why VKM went on with the show. That had to be the toughest call of his career.
Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Do you stop the show and piss people off who paid their money to see the show or do you keep going and offend those who believe you should have stopped the show.
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Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Do you stop the show and piss people off who paid their money to see the show or do you keep going and offend those who believe you should have stopped the show.
Exactly. Not to mention the PPV audience and the cable companies would probably have sued him. I think Vince just did the best he could in a situation that nobody had dealt with before.
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Exactly. Not to mention the PPV audience and the cable companies would probably have sued him. I think Vince just did the best he could in a situation that nobody had dealt with before.
I'll never forget the look on Lawler & JR's faces just after it happened. They looked as if they seen a ghost. Can you imagine? They were right there when he landed merely feet away.
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I know it's old, but great thread !!
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I know it's old, but great thread !!
I'm quite impressed with some of the discussions we've managed to conduct over the years regarding grown men in spandex pretending to fight.
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I'm still in no way buying that A&E was allowed to air the footage, access to everything, etc... without vkm having final say and letting them air it. To me, that is the biggest factor to weigh. If it was a legit "screwjob" why would he allow that? Not to mention no lawsuit to slow Bret down from going to WCW, etc...
Vince had signed creative control to the director and couldn't do nothing to stop it..
at the very end it was stated Vince hated the film and tried to buy it but the director
refused.. it also has been stated that Vince tried to go to court to stop it from being sold but lost and the
film was released..
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Vince had signed creative control to the director and couldn't do nothing to stop it..
at the very end it was stated Vince hated the film and tried to buy it but the director
refused.. it also has been stated that Vince tried to go to court to stop it from being sold but lost and the
film was released..
Was that the Bret documentary, or Beyond the Mat?
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I heard his had issues with both..
He hasn't allowed anybody else to do so type of productions ;D
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I heard his had issues with both..
He hasn't allowed anybody else to do so type of productions ;D
Being the control freak that he is, I'm frankly surprised Vince agreed to two, let alone one.