There's Only One Bible

[Cliff Clavin]

No.

no?..so you don't know of the crusades and the inquisitions and the means of how early Christianity was spread...and you don't care to acknowledge how you view religion as a popularity contest with your religion being the "winner" in regards to currently having the most members...And as we know its the "WINNERS" that write history as they see fit...

[pellius]

If you have a personal relationship with god, ask him why he allows 4 ad 5 yr olds to be molested on a regular basis by uncle Bob and step dad Bill. All I ever get is "god has a plan"

Ask God why he allows children to die of cancer before they see 10, or starve to death by 7. I'm curious. Because some people say God helped them get a promotion, or succeed in business, or win a boxing match or football game and I just wonder, if he can do those things, why can't he stop Mom from burning little Suzy with a cigarette?

Seriously? You want to go there? By your name I would have assumed you would have beaten this to death. Why bad things happen to good people? Why is there injustice in the world? Why is there suffering in the world? Why do Americana whores kill their babies so they can party and get laid and then set free to win a possible million dollar book deal and/or movie? Why didn't God create a world where we only did the right thing and live happily ever after?

This has nothing to do with whether or not God exists. I'm not going to discuss maters of faith on a bodybuilding board? It's pointless, tiresome at this point, and you've already heard all the arguments except perhaps this notion:

A better and more insightful question is not whether or not God exists, but is he good?

[Agnostic007]

Seriously? You want to go there? By your name I would have assumed you would have beaten this to death. Why bad things happen to good people? Why is there injustice in the world? Why is there suffering in the world? Why do Americana whores kill their babies so they can party and get laid and then set free to win a possible million dollar book deal and/or movie? Why didn't God create a world where we only did the right thing and live happily ever after?

This has nothing to do with whether or not God exists. I'm not going to discuss maters of faith on a bodybuilding board? It's pointless, tiresome at this point, and you've already heard all the arguments except perhaps this notion:

A better and more insightful question is not whether or not God exists, but is he good?

Alrighty then..

[pellius]

no?..so you don't know of the crusades and the inquisitions and the means of how early Christianity was spread...and you don't care to acknowledge how you view religion as a popularity contest with your religion being the "winner" in regards to currently having the most members...And as we know its the "WINNERS" that write history as they see fit...

The question, as far as I understood it, was the veracity of a belief system. I simply was acknowledging your implication that whether it's 2 thousand or 2 billion, that it is irrelevant how many people subscribe to that belief vis-a-vis it's truth. Objective truth is not achieved by popular vote.

[John O]

People ask me all the time once they find out "I'm born again" what if the Bible is not true. I say well, if the Bible is not true and I'm saved, I'll just sleep the big sleep like everybody else when I die.  

 Then it's my turn. But what if the Bible IS true and your not saved when you die ..... Well if it's true... your not going to have much fun lets just put it that way LOL

* shrugs shoulders* It's up to you.  

Seriously, the Bible was written for believers, if you not a believer the Bible was not written for you.. no big deal.

I enjoy reading the Bible, I enjoy believing in Jesus, I enjoy being a Christian.

Edit: Oh, I like  KJV the best but will go to a NKJV if I need a little more understanding of a verse. Really have no use for the NIV though.... just saying

[Man of Steel]

Seriously? You want to go there? By your name I would have assumed you would have beaten this to death. Why bad things happen to good people? Why is there injustice in the world? Why is there suffering in the world? Why do Americana whores kill their babies so they can party and get laid and then set free to win a possible million dollar book deal and/or movie? Why didn't God create a world where we only did the right thing and live happily ever after?

This has nothing to do with whether or not God exists. I'm not going to discuss maters of faith on a bodybuilding board? It's pointless, tiresome at this point, and you've already heard all the arguments except perhaps this notion:

A better and more insightful question is not whether or not God exists, but is he good?

Just take a breath pellius.  These discussions can be a bit frustrating at times, but if we believe and if we profess to represent Christ we must act accordingly.  If you don't have an answer to a nonbelievers question off the top of your head that's ok.  Take a breath.  Think about their question, read some others believers' perspectives and read your bible....then provide an answer.  Whether or not you have an immediate answer doesn't weaken your faith it just means you don't have an answer.  Agnostics and atheists are not bad people.  Most are brilliant, articulate, witty people that enjoy discussion and debate....that's cool.  Some are not so nice; unfortunately the same is true of Christians.  Many agnostics and atheists are far more versed in scripture and all apologetic perspectives and they delight in tripping up believers along the way.  Those folks aren't looking for a path to God, they're playing a game.  From a worldly perspective they're winning the game.  I don't play the game, I just try and be friendly and share what I believe....the love of Christ.  If I have more to offer I'll share.  Many will spit in your face....wipe it off, pray for them, lead by example and remember they aren't bad people and we're all broken sinners.  Just do you best not to loose your cool....many live for those moments when Christians loose their cool and publically misrepresent Christ....then they throw it in your face and collectively laugh.   I'm not suggesting that all nonbelievers on Getbig are the game players (sure some are), but a lot aren't.  Remember, we're in an era of Google warriors....information at everyone's fingertips in seconds.  For every 100 apologetic websites we reference they'll find a 1000 that say the opposite and that insult believers at the same time.  

[Agnostic007]

I enjoy discussing theology. I only push when pushed... thought my questions were legitimate given the claims. Ill accept I don't knows with admiration.. I dont know everything ..... dont claim to...

[pellius]

Just take a breath pellius.  These discussions can be a bit frustrating at times, but if we believe and if we profess to represent Christ we must act accordingly.  If you don't have an answer to a nonbelievers question off the top of your head that's ok.  Take a breath.  Think about their question, read some others believers' perspectives and read your bible....then provide an answer.  Whether or not you have an immediate answer doesn't weaken your faith it just means you don't have an answer.  Agnostics and atheists are not bad people.  Most are brilliant, articulate, witty people that enjoy discussion and debate....that's cool.  Some are not so nice; unfortunately the same is true of Christians.  Many agnostics and atheists are far more versed in scripture and all apologetic perspectives and they delight in tripping up believers along the way.  Those folks aren't looking for a path to God, they're playing a game.  From a worldly perspective they're winning the game.  I don't play the game, I just try and be friendly and share what I believe....the love of Christ.  If I have more to offer I'll share.  Many will spit in your face....wipe it off, pray for them, lead by example and remember they aren't bad people and we're all broken sinners.  Just do you best not to loose your cool....many live for those moments when Christians loose their cool and publically misrepresent Christ....then they throw it in your face and collectively laugh.   I'm not suggesting that all nonbelievers on Getbig are the game players (sure some are), but a lot aren't.  Remember, we're in an era of Google warriors....information at everyone's fingertips in seconds.  For every 100 apologetic websites we reference they'll find a 1000 that say the opposite and that insult believers at the same time.  

What on earth are you talking about? What is this "take a breath" talk? Does my responses seem like I'm exerting myself? That I am in the least bit agitated? Have I in the slightest impune the character of agnostics or atheist or in anyway implied they are as a group bad people? I answered, with thoughtful deliberation, all questions posed to me -- without coming close to losing my breath.

You seem to have staggeringly misread the thoughts, ideas, and tone of my posts.

[WillGrant]

[Andy Griffin]

C.S. Lewis wrote that Jesus was either, "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic." 

[Agnostic007]

C.S. Lewis wrote that Jesus was either, "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic." 

And it was clever..however they aren't the only options..

[Man of Steel]

What on earth are you talking about? What is this "take a breath" talk? Does my responses seem like I'm exerting myself? That I am in the least bit agitated? Have I in the slightest impune the character of agnostics or atheist or in anyway implied they are as a group bad people? I answered, with thoughtful deliberation, all questions posed to me -- without coming close to losing my breath.

You seem to have staggeringly misread the thoughts, ideas, and tone of my posts.

My apologies, was just offering a perspective....toss it in the trash if you prefer.

[Cliff Clavin]

What on earth are you talking about? What is this "take a breath" talk? Does my responses seem like I'm exerting myself? That I am in the least bit agitated? Have I in the slightest impune the character of agnostics or atheist or in anyway implied they are as a group bad people? I answered, with thoughtful deliberation, all questions posed to me -- without coming close to losing my breath.

You seem to have staggeringly misread the thoughts, ideas, and tone of my posts.

you didnt address your knowledge or lack there of in regards to the crusades or the Inquisitions or how early Christianity was spread or how you look at religion as a popularity contest with Christians being the winners...or how winners write/determine whats recorded in history even if the facts are wrong...or how Christian holidays all happen to fall on pa gen days along with other religions that pre date Christianity...

[pellius]

you didnt address your knowledge or lack there of in regards to the crusades or the Inquisitions or how early Christianity was spread or how you look at religion as a popularity contest with Christians being the winners...or how winners write/determine whats recorded in history even if the facts are wrong...or how Christian holidays all happen to fall on pa gen days along with other religions that pre date Christianity...

I don't see where there is a question as you are talking about recorded history. You want me to "address" it. Again I'm not sure if you are asking me if I can justify it, acknowledge it, give my views on it but here goes.

Yes, there was such a thing as the Crusades. Christianity at one point in history was a very unforgiving and brutal religion. They tortured and killed people. I consider this a bad thing. And yes, it was written by historians. Whether these historians are the "winners" I don't know because you can easily find both positive and negative historical accounts of Christianity. My guess is that you focus and tend to agree with the negative aspects because because you don't agree and seem to don't like the Christian religion, or perhaps any religion for that matter. You are not alone.  

And I don't know that Christian holidays "just happened" to fall on pagan holidays. My guess was that it was done of purpose. Just as Christians persecuted others they also were persecuted themselves. Some were even killed. So it was safer to celebrate their beliefs during times of secular cultural celebrations. For example, Christmas, the birth of Christ, was celebrated during the winter solstice bacchanalia. I don't think anyone ever believed that Christ was born in the winter but it seemed at the time to be a good time to safely celebrate his birth. Doesn't bother me in the least.

[pellius]

My apologies, was just offering a perspective....toss it in the trash if you prefer.

Now you are making me feel guilty. More likely than not due to my Catholic upbringing. But, really, I apologize. I need to take a breath. I was just... just... I don't know. I don't what I'm doing anymore. I'm so not worthy. Hell, awaits me for sure. 

[pellius]

People ask me all the time once they find out "I'm born again" what if the Bible is not true. I say well, if the Bible is not true and I'm saved, I'll just sleep the big sleep like everybody else when I die.  

 Then it's my turn. But what if the Bible IS true and your not saved when you die ..... Well if it's true... your not going to have much fun lets just put it that way LOL

* shrugs shoulders* It's up to you.  

Seriously, the Bible was written for believers, if you not a believer the Bible was not written for you.. no big deal.

I enjoy reading the Bible, I enjoy believing in Jesus, I enjoy being a Christian.

Edit: Oh, I like  KJV the best but will go to a NKJV if I need a little more understanding of a verse. Really have no use for the NIV though.... just saying

Nice. Very nice.

I having been an agnostic for over a decade a one point in my life I have never ever felt any animosity towards atheist or non believers. Never. I never got the resentment they seem to feel towards us. They believe we are wrong, foolish, naive.... I get that. But we are talking matters of faith. Believing in something that we have no factual proof of. Just like they have no factual proof that matter simply always existed and always was and that it was not created by a creator that simply always existed. We're just talking about one step. They reject our first step.

I get it.

 

[pellius]

[Jack T. Cross]

Wow.  Looks like the guy in the back may be a midget, too.  Must have been a hell of a stage show.

[WillGrant]

[Man of Steel]

I didn't read this whole thread

but you know that "bible" use to just mean book, right?

that's why it has "Holy" in front of it. Holy Bible= "Holy book". If "bible" meant "holy book" then most bibles would then be called "holy holy book".

 

Like an ATM machine.

[Agnostic007]

Like an ATM machine.

yep.... 

[OTHstrong]

You believe that because something comes from a book it somehow diminishes it's value. Most of what we know comes from books.

People claim to have a personal relationship with God. I am one of them. I know people who have personal relationships with their rifles. Some have it with some good chain or rabbit's foot blessed by a dead relative. You think it is silly. I understand. But can you live with it?
   

Sorry Pellius,I have to correct you...EVERYTHING we know comes from a book

[pellius]

Sorry Pellius,I have to correct you...EVERYTHING we know comes from a book

I stand by my claim that a great deal, if not most, of what we know comes books -- but not all. There are actually illiterates, people who do not have the ability to read, that have knowledge based on personal experience and trial and error.

I was one of those kids who burnt his hand playing with fire. Nobody taught me that and I was too young to have the ability to read. I gained that knowledge, one that I never forgot, through personal experience. Also, I have learned things that other people have learned, some of which you can't find in books but only attained through experience, that was past down to me.

Socrates couldn't read or write but his philosophy and ideas were past down and recorded with the written word. What people learned from him, people like Plato, came straight from the horse's mouth.

I will come back to this quadzilla fella. He interests me greatly and is quite open and articulate about his beliefs. 

[OTHstrong]

I thought you where implying historical characters, in this case all come from written documents manuscript, such as Hector, Achilles, Paris, Helen of troy, PELLIUS ...,aga memnen, Menelaus etc, The Odyssey and Elliad......by Homer, Alexander the great, Hannibal Backus. The generations of Ptolemy, Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Mark Anthony, all the Caesars, everybody comes from writting, so the argument I keep hearing "you believe it cause it's in a book"...I simply don't understand why people say that. Christains are stupid, no not 1 smart one in 2 000 000 000....

[pellius]

I thought you where implying historical characters, in this case all come from written documents manuscript, such as Hector, Achilles, Paris, Helen of troy, PELLIUS ...,aga memnen, Menelaus etc, The Odyssey and Elliad......by Homer, Alexander the great, Hannibal Backus. The generations of Ptolemy, Julius Caesar, Cleopatra, Mark Anthony, all the Caesars, everybody comes from writting, so the argument I keep hearing "you believe it cause it's in a book"...I simply don't understand why people say that. Christains are stupid, no not 1 smart one in 2 000 000 000....

Oh, in that case you're right.

On the other hand I don't know of anyone, myself included, who believe in Christianity because it's in a book. You are putting the cart before the horse, my friend. We believe in God first. We learn about the life of Jesus and morality from the Bible.

Now, and this is a more salient point and often trivialized, we learn right from wrong; good and bad, from the Bible and Christianity. And I know how this initially sounds. Without God, with a set of rules to live by, a system of ethics outside of yourself, then morality simply because a matter of personal opinion based mostly on self interest and what you can safely get away with.

If you ask me why stealing is wrong and I say that it's wrong because it says so in the Bible. I sound simplistic. But if I ask an atheist why stealing is wrong what would they say? Because it's wrong? Why? Because it hurts someone else? So what? That's a matter of compassion and sensitivity and not right and wrong.  Because I don't want anybody to steal from me? Again, so what? Why should you believe that? If you're a sales clerk at Sears and you are giving me 5 dollars in change and give me 4 ones and a $20 bill why should I return the $20? If you see a hot chick why not rape her if you can get away with it? Notice how when the law breaks down and anarchy ensues, such as in times of war; men, who would never act otherwise, suddenly become rapist.

I think it is very important to have a value system outside of yourself. A set of rules dictating moral behavior that you answer to and are held accountable for. Without that then morality is just whatever you say it is. And I don't trust human nature.

BTW, this is NOT an argument for the existence of God. Just because one does not like the consequences of living in a Godless universe, one where there is not objective rules for morality and clearly defined notions of right and wrong, doesn't argue for God's existence.