Is God Cruel?

[loco]

Come on Loco, you are smarter than this. The RCC and others DID NOT have the same level of power and authority that they once did. When one compares the 14th century Church with early 1940's Germany this becomes clear. Had they has access to modern technology at the apex of their power, there is little doubt they would have used it to devastating effect. The medieval pograms against Jews are a large indication of this. Imagine what they (Good Christians) could have done with poison gas, machine guns and mass transport....

Well, thanks for the compliment, Deicide!   

Okay, so these modern secular leaders are just as barbaric and uncivilised as those 14th century religious leaders?  My only point here is that the possibility for people to be controlled and manipulated by politicians and leaders has nothing to do with being religious or secular.  It has nothing to do with believing or not believing in the OT.

[Deicide]

Well, thanks for the compliment, Deicide!   

Okay, so these modern secular leaders are just as barbaric and uncivilised as those 14th century religious leaders?  My only point here is that the possibility for people to be controlled and manipulated by politicians and leaders has nothing to do with being religious or secular.  It has nothing to do with believing or not believing in the OT.

Correct. It has everything to do with accepting unfalsifiable dogma, be it religious or secular; claims without evidence. The OT has more than its share and it is so babaric by today's standards that it should be flushed down the toilet.

[loco]

Correct. It has everything to do with accepting unfalsifiable dogma, be it religious or secular; claims without evidence. The OT has more than its share and it is so babaric by today's standards that it should be flushed down the toilet.

You highlight "It has nothing to do with believing or not believing in the OT." in my post, tell me that I am correct, then say the OT should be flushed down the toilet?   

[OzmO]

God has never spoken to me.

God has never inspired you to make the right decision?

You have never felt guidance from somewhere outside your physical senses?

[loco]

God has never inspired you to make the right decision?

You have never felt guidance from somewhere outside your physical senses?

"Inspired" me? Yes.  "Guided" me?  Yes.  "Spoken" to me?  No. 

God has "spoken" to people before, but God has never "spoken" to me, and I'm okay with that.

[OzmO]

You agree?  Then if "the potential is still there" regardless of wheather or not a person believes the OT is the word of God, and If "Christians DO NOT do the same things in practice as radical Muslims", then where is the harm?

The harm is more potential in that a reason exists.  The OT is something some people take a the literal word of God and do not recognize the evil in god killing children.  but is there direct harm at the moment?  Of course not.

But, if you have attitudes like this:

And just because the rest of the world condemns an action doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is right.  If God tells you to smack the kid in the face and you do it, then it is okay with God because it is God who ordered you to do it.

Then you have to wonder how all the Jewish soldiers received their orders and how vulnerable some are now to being convinced someone has been spoken to by God.   

And, take the whole 72 virgins thing out of Islam.  Do you think we'd see as many suicide bombers?  The sales job wouldn't be as effective. 

And who knows?  The roles could get reversed in the next 100 years.

P.S.:

You also have to wonder about this: 

And just because the rest of the world condemns an action doesn't automatically mean that the rest of the world is right.

Umm, when it comes to killing innocent children being wrong the rest of the world is right and the scripture is not the WOG.

[OzmO]

"Inspired" me? Yes.  "Guided" me?  Yes.  "Spoken" to me?  No. 

God has "spoken" to people before, but God has never "spoken" to me, and I'm okay with that.

I wasn't trying to imply that you weren't ok with that.

[loco]

The harm is more potential in that a reason exists. 

Are you saying that there is more potential for somebody who believes in the OT to be manipulated by politicians than somebody who does not believe in the OT?  What are you basing this statement on?  I just brought to your attention that people can and have already been manipulated in modern times, just as much if not more, by secular ideals. 

The OT is something some people take a the literal word of God and do not recognize the evil in god killing children. 

The killing of children by God in the OT is not a direct command from God to us, but it is recorded as events in the history of Israel.  "Thou shall not murder" is a direct command from God.  So to say that a Christian could use Israel's recorded history today to justify killing children is stretching the truth, not to mention that it is not happening today anyway.  So there is nothing to back that up.

but is there direct harm at the moment?  Of course not.

Of course there is no harm in believing the OT is the word of God.

But, if you have attitudes like this:

Then you have to wonder how all the Jewish soldiers received their orders and how vulnerable some are now to being convinced someone has been spoken to by God.   

And, take the whole 72 virgins thing out of Islam.  Do you think we'd see as many suicide bombers?  The sales job wouldn't be as effective. 

That's a bold assumption.  There is no guarantee that removing the 72 virgins from Islam will stop suicide bombers.  The Kamikaze's suicide attacks simply because to them it was "an honor to die for Japan and the Emperor" had nothing to do with 72 virgins or with the OT.

And who knows?  The roles could get reversed in the next 100 years.

What is that supposed to mean?

P.S.:

You also have to wonder about this: 
Umm, when it comes to killing innocent children being wrong the rest of the world is right and the scripture is not the WOG.

P.S.: 

I believe killing innocent children is wrong and I think it's good that you believe so too.  But do you think so just because "the rest of the world" thinks so?

You have to wonder when an individual bases his morality on what "rest of the world condemns" or on what "the rest of the world" considers moral or immoral. 

[OzmO]

Are you saying that there is more potential for somebody who believes in the OT to be manipulated by politicians than somebody who does not believe in the OT?  What are you basing this statement on?  I just brought to your attention that people can and have already been manipulated in modern times, just as much if not more, by secular ideals. 

Yeah i do.  For the mere fact it's not denounced.  Now how much more potential?  Right now, in this time in the world?  Not much.  But society can change as it has before.

On top of that, believing in a book like the OT can limiting for a society in the long run.  I was reading last night, that there are as many engineers in South Korea as there are in the USA.  That's scary, the article talks about Saudi Arabia too, where so much funding has been directed to religious studies, putting that country further behind technologically hurting them and making them ore dependent on other countries.  I'd hate to see that happen to America.  But if South Korea has as many engineers as we do, that's scary.  I'm not saying that belief in the OT is the reason we are slipping behind.  But believing in a book that's obviously not 100% of God and talks about magical things and brutal violence and fear does not help.

The killing of children by God in the OT is not a direct command from God to us, but it is recorded as events in the history of Israel.  "Thou shall not murder" is a direct command from God.  So to say that a Christian could use Israel's recorded history today to justify killing children is stretching the truth, not to mention that it is not happening today anyway.  So there is nothing to back that up.

I agree.  As of right now.  But again, IMO, the problem is that it's not denounced.  It's considered by some as the will and word of GOD, which is an evil act and not possible of GOD.

Of course there is no harm in believing the OT is the word of God.

Individually no.  I agree.  But, for societies, yes. There is a good potential.  The nice thing is we are civilized beyond the OT, beyond the alleged WOG in the case of killing children.

That's a bold assumption.  There is no guarantee that removing the 72 virgins from Islam will stop suicide bombers.  The Kamikaze's suicide attacks simply because it was an honor to die for Japan and the Emperor had nothing to do with 72 virgins or with the OT.

Removing the rewards of martyrdom will have an effect on suicide bombers and Kamkazi's.  The ideas were similar in that there was the reward of Honor or virgins.

What is that supposed to mean?

If Christians were in the same boat many of these muslims are you'd see little radical secs pop up and advocate violence in the name of God.

P.S.:

I believe killing innocent children is wrong and I think it's good that you believe so too.  But do you think so just because "the rest of the world" thinks so?

You have to wonder when an individual bases his morality on what "rest of the world condemns" or on what "the rest of the world" considers moral or immoral.

I agree with your premise there for the most part.  "the world" or a culture can have it wrong.  You highlighted that issue well with 300 b.c. Greece.  However not in the case of killing children. And we as a species are still very young and have not matured.  Society now considers killing children very evil were as it was not in the OT.  In time, i pray, we will survive to mature not to commit homicide, invade an area for it's resources, steal, etc...

I think god gave us the ability to know right from wrong.  Many choose to ignore that, unfortunately.  It really all begins with considering if our actions will result in a victim(s).




 

[Deedee]

What a benchmark... comparing the Creator of all, the inventor our DNA and all the exists around us, with a mere human despot, a little spec in the grand scheme of things... Stalin, to say, oh well, God was better than he. Incredible. 

Consider all the children, babies, sick, retarded, the defenseless, innocent animals God personally killed in the Flood... estimated at about 30,000,000 (people).  The bible is filled with God ordered killings, He personally even annihilated people for complaining... maybe it's just better to acknowledge that yes, it happened, but must have been for a reason we can't fathom. How can you deny the written word? It's plain as day.

[Deedee]

Are you saying that there is more potential for somebody who believes in the OT to be manipulated by politicians than somebody who does not believe in the OT?  What are you basing this statement on?  I just brought to your attention that people can and have already been manipulated in modern times, just as much if not more, by secular ideals.

Loco you keep trying to put a positive spin on this stuff.  Wish you would post up some stats of your claims... because the fact is that up until very recently most people living in the christian world used the word of God in every facet of their lives. Forget about all the wars fought in the name of God. Much suffering has been handed down through the centuries due to the mis-interpretations, both willful and not, of his word. Education is a thing of recent years.    Good thing you weren't an illegitimate child born in the 1600's, or an orphan living in the 1800s. Or a village woman stuck with her physically abusive husband. Or God forbid, suffered from a mysterious illness, were born with a deformity, etc... because you would have been shunned or far worse being as how you'd be the living manifestation of your family's "sins." 

[OzmO]

What a benchmark... comparing the Creator of all, the inventor our DNA and all the exists around us, with a mere human despot, a little spec in the grand scheme of things... Stalin, to say, oh well, God was better than he. Incredible. 

Consider all the children, babies, sick, retarded, the defenseless, innocent animals God personally killed in the Flood... estimated at about 30,000,000 (people).  The bible is filled with God ordered killings, He personally even annihilated people for complaining... maybe it's just better to acknowledge that yes, it happened, but must have been for a reason we can't fathom. How can you deny the written word? It's plain as day.

According to scripture....and i might not be exact here........  they were all wicked.

[Deedee]

According to scripture....and i might not be exact here........  they were all wicked.

Yes, I think that's correct.

Ozmo, there were good reasons for the killing of babies back then. What Loco doesn't realize is that those OT obliterations of entire enemy cities, including babies and young children, were really the early, barbaric examples of "Social Darwinism" or Eugenics. Lineage was everything back then and by assimilating enemy children into the fold you sully future generations with evil/weak bloodlines. Women were just birth vessels, so keeping the virgins was okay as they would be bearing children of your own blood, thereby keeping the purity of the generations to come intact. 

[OzmO]

Yes, I think that's correct.

Ozmo, there were good reasons for the killing of babies back then. What Loco doesn't realize is that those OT obliterations of entire enemy cities, including babies and young children, were really the early, barbaric examples of "Social Darwinism" or Eugenics. Lineage was everything back then and by assimilating enemy children into the fold you sully future generations with evil/weak bloodlines. Women were just birth vessels, so keeping the virgins was okay as they would be bearing children of your own blood, thereby keeping the purity of the generations to come intact. 

When you say "good" reasons do you mean you agree or do you mean they considered them good reasons?

The rest of what you said makes perfect sense, not that i agree....

[Deedee]

When you say "good" reasons do you mean you agree or do you mean they considered them good reasons?

The rest of what you said makes perfect sense, not that i agree....

Lol,  no I meant they considered them good reasons. It was a tribal mentality back then, survival of your own sometimes required harsh actions.

I love my cushy modern day life, don't you? 

[loco]

Yes, I think that's correct.

Ozmo, there were good reasons for the killing of babies back then. What Loco doesn't realize is that those OT obliterations of entire enemy cities, including babies and young children, were really the early, barbaric examples of "Social Darwinism" or Eugenics. Lineage was everything back then and by assimilating enemy children into the fold you sully future generations with evil/weak bloodlines. Women were just birth vessels, so keeping the virgins was okay as they would be bearing children of your own blood, thereby keeping the purity of the generations to come intact. 

Interesting "theory".  Does Bible say anything about evil/weak bloodlines?  Does the Bible not say that we are all one blood, one human race, all created in God's image?

[loco]

Lol,  no I meant they considered them good reasons. It was a tribal mentality back then, survival of your own sometimes required harsh actions.

I love my cushy modern day life, don't you? 

If they considered them good reasons back then and if that was a tribal mentality back then, then why the need for them to "justify it by claiming God told them to do it"?

[OzmO]

If they considered them good reasons back then and if that was a tribal mentality back then, then why the need for them to "justify it by claiming God told them to do it"?

Likely, not everyone was as barbaric as the history was written to show.

Or maybe they knew what they were doing was evil and used God as an excuse.

[loco]

Likely, not everyone was as barbaric as the history was written to show.

Or maybe they knew what they were doing was evil and used God as an excuse.

If Israel considered them good reasons back then and if that was a tribal mentality back then, as Deedee pointed out, then how did they know that what they were doing was evil?

[OzmO]

If Israel considered them good reasons back then and if that was a tribal mentality back then, as Deedee pointed out, then how did they know that what they were doing was evil?

You seem to be looking it Israel as a single entity or applying these issues as if the Jews were a single entity. Look at groups, nations, societies and cultures to today.  All them carry different view points of morality.  Take the United states for example:  there are many that believe to shoot first and ask questions later while there are many who believe to negotiate and only go to war at the very last resort.

[loco]

You seem to be looking it Israel as a single entity or applying these issues as if the Jews were a single entity. Look at groups, nations, societies and cultures to today.  All them carry different view points of morality.  Take the United states for example:  there are many that believe to shoot first and ask questions later while there are many who believe to negotiate and only go to war at the very last resort.

Deedee said that Israel had "good reasons" for killing the children of their enemies because back then "they" considered those good reasons and that was a tribal mentality back then.

[OzmO]

Deedee said that Israel had "good reasons" for killing the children of their enemies because back then "they" considered those good reasons and that was a tribal mentality back then.

Are you trying to argue that Dee Dee believes Israel is a single entity?  Or are you using what she said (not fully knowing what she meant) to make your argument?

[loco]

Are you trying to argue that Dee Dee believes Israel is a single entity?  Or are you using what she said (not fully knowing what she meant) to make your argument?

Who is arguing?  Deedee made her comment and I asked her a question about it.  Let's wait for her answer.

[loco]

Loco you keep trying to put a positive spin on this stuff.  Wish you would post up some stats of your claims... because the fact is that up until very recently most people living in the christian world used the word of God in every facet of their lives. Forget about all the wars fought in the name of God. Much suffering has been handed down through the centuries due to the mis-interpretations, both willful and not, of his word. Education is a thing of recent years.    Good thing you weren't an illegitimate child born in the 1600's, or an orphan living in the 1800s. Or a village woman stuck with her physically abusive husband. Or God forbid, suffered from a mysterious illness, were born with a deformity, etc... because you would have been shunned or far worse being as how you'd be the living manifestation of your family's "sins." 

WWI(1914 - 1918):  19,772,701
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties#References

WWII(1930s – 1945): 62,000,000
- World War II: Combatants and Casualties (1937 — 1945). Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.
- World War II Fatalities. Retrieved on 2007-04-20.

Great Leap Forward(1958 - 1960):  43,000,000
- Peng Xizhe (彭希哲), "Demographic Consequences of the Great Leap Forward in China's Provinces," Population and Development Review 13, no. 4 (1987), 639-70.

Great Purge(1937 -1938): 1,200,000
- Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Historian Michael Ellman, 2002

Pol Pot's agrarian collectivization (1975 -1979): 1,700,000
- Sophal Ear (May 1995). The Khmer Rouge Canon 1975-1979: The Standard Total Academic View on Cambodia. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.In Chapter 1: Introduction
- The Cambodian Genocide Program. Retrieved on 2007-11-02.

That's what?  127,672,701 casualties for just these few, that's not counting the emotional, cultural, economic trauma, etc.  Keep in mind that the above did not happen in ancient times.  It was done by "modern civilized people", moved by secular ideologies.

Deedee,
You are missing the point for me bringing this up.  OzmO pointed out that there is harm in believing that the OT is the word of God because that makes us "more" vulnerable to manipulations from politicians.  He said that there is "more potential" for believers in the OT to be manipulated into killing. 

But as you can see, anybody whether secular or religious has as much potential to be manipulated or is just as vulnerable to be manipulated into killing.  People can be manipulated by ideals, whether they believe in the OT or not, whether those ideals are secular or religious.  To say that if nobody today believed in the OT is going to make people less vulnerable to such manipulations is naive. 

There is no harm in Christians believing that the OT is the word of God.

[loco]

Education is a thing of recent years.    Good thing you weren't an illegitimate child born in the 1600's, or an orphan living in the 1800s. Or a village woman stuck with her physically abusive husband. Or God forbid, suffered from a mysterious illness, were born with a deformity, etc... because you would have been shunned or far worse being as how you'd be the living manifestation of your family's "sins." 

Recent years, huh?  No, good thing you weren't an unfortunate Russian as recent as 1937 -1938, or an unfortunate Chinese in 1958 - 1960, or an unfortunate Cambodian in 1975 -1979.